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T O P I C    R E V I E W
dazzlerdal Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 11:56:52
Well onto my next project of fleshing out little detailed areas.

Thar.

I'm looking for all the information that exists on Thar so that i can define its history more consistently.

At the moment there appear to have been two kingdoms that ruled Thar.
The first an ogre kingdom founded by Vorbyx and ruled by a Tharkul who may or may not have been an Oni. This kingdom destroyed Northkeep and had a large capital city with floating bridges that has now disappeared.
The ogre kingdom ended 1000 years ago (even though the last Tharkul Maulog was killed in 1288DR which led to the founding of Glister and the human kingdom of Thar (slight inconsitency but nothing that cannot be explained away).

Then after the fall of the ogre kingdom, an orc kingdom appeared.
Its overking Ologh was slain by a dragon called Iyrauroth (who has some draconic orc children whose progeny survive today) in 572 DR.
This may or may not have signalled the end of the orc kingdom.

So any ideas to explain the inconsistency with the ogre kingdom (it falling 1000 years ago and yet its last king was slain 70 years ago). I favour the simplest solution in that a powerful tribe survived after the fall of the kingdom that kept Vorbyx's hammer and declared its chieftain Tharkul. When Maulog was slain the hammer was lost and so no one can be legally (if such a term exists for ogres) called Tharkul.

Where was this fabled ogre capital. In the centre of Thar is a lake (according to the elminsters ecologies map) and a hill range which is home to Fangjaw Hold (according to a 4th edition map - maybe in a dragon magazine). I'm wondering if the capital isnt buried in one of those. If it had floating bridges that could mean either they were magic and floated on air, or that they literally floated on the water and it now lies at the bottom of the lake.

How did the ogre kingdom end. There are some hints that it was ended by dragons. This may have coincided with them stirring up the dragons to attack Northkeep. Maybe they woke up Iyrauroth and he was responsible for the end of the ogre kingdom, then after a 2 centuries of sleep he killed the orc overking as well and ended that kingdom.

Anyways, any lore or ideas will be most helpful. This area looks to be pivotal in the development of the Moonsea and actually had a significant effect on Cormanthor as well so it would be nice to get some more detail about it.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
dazzlerdal Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 19:43:10
Another source I missed, I'll go and check that out now.

And it appears I made up the ologh Iyrauroth connection.
Icelander Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 12:18:06
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There are no further details in Dungeon #69.

-- George Krashos


Thank you.

Are you aware of any suggestion, by yourself, Ed Greenwood or any other designer, that Ologh might have been dragon-blooded or with any other non-orcish blood?

Or that he had any connection with Iyrauroth prior to meeting death in his jaws?
George Krashos Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 11:37:32
There are no further details in Dungeon #69.

-- George Krashos
Icelander Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 23:32:47
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ologh is mentioned as the blood of Iyrauroth in one quote (although I cannot recall the source).


I cannot find anything with Google, except the article in Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions.

As my adventure is all about bloodlines, true heirs and modern claimants to ancient crowns, I'm very interested in more canon on Ologh.

So far, I've found that he was the Overking of Vastar until he died in the jaws of Iyrauroth in the Hollow Mountain in 572 DR, he was described as a 'monstrous' orc, he carried the Blazing Banner of Ologh into battle and he was Lawful in alignment.

Unfortunately, I don't have Dungeon #69, so I don't know if there are any more details on Ologh in the article, 'Sleep of Ages' where the Blazing Banner is mentioned.
dazzlerdal Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 21:48:45
Ologh is mentioned as the blood of Iyrauroth in one quote (although I cannot recall the source).
Icelander Posted - 16 Apr 2018 : 21:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal


Thats probably a very simplistic view of Iyrauroths actions. He is known to have orcish descendants so he probably had his own army of draconic orc soldiers, and he may or may not have orchestrated the downfall of the kingdom of Vastar in the Vast by prompting the dwarves to exterminate them. He definitely moved into Mount Grimmerfang some point after the kingdom of Vastar ended.


Where is this from?

I'm especially interested if there is a canon source that mentions orcish descendants of Iyrauroth.
dazzlerdal Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 13:30:36
Lots and lots of questions.

So Barze is a successor state of netheril as we know. Barze fled netheril just prior to its fall following some novel that i didnt read so dont know the exact reason why.

Varm is a tribal trader nation made of civilised barbarians from the Ride most likely .

The Vane i think are a tribe of Netherese influenced barbarians that arent nice.

Horreb we have almost nothing about. They are artificers, they helped make the cube to reimprison maram and Brian imagined them as thri kreen.


These proto nations were then all conquered/betrayed by tyranthraxus during the war to reimprison maram and its aftermath and then suddenly all these groups disappeared and a huge wasteland called Thar was created.

Thats the canon bits. Everything else is my theories.



The horreb are not thrikreen they are a spellweaver human hybrid. The spellweavers were outcasts from eril and had a number of linked pseudo nodes powered by primordial beings which they were using to keep themselves protected in an extradimensional space (protected from the effects of the grand conjunction which destroyed the spellweavers), they were able to possess humans ethereally like ghosts and so still lived a life of sorts while their bodies were in stasis. The Fall of Netheril and disruption of the weave screwed up their protection and the possessed humans merged with the spellweavers to produce multi armed insectlike beings with much magical knowledge.


Maram was imprisoned in the monument of the ancients for ages until the netherese released him to battle the enemy in the seven sigils war. Vorbyx was one of the lieutenants of Maram (or maybe the enemy), he was an elder ogre born of othea but escaped annams curse that degenerated his brothers into the ogre race.

After the seven sigils war he sided with maram and after his defeat he fled.


Tyranthraxus meanwhile conquered the kingdoms he had forged into an alliance to defeat maram and just at the moment of victory he was thwarted by a dragon known as embrurshaille who performed a great ritual to elevate her to another state of being or enhance her with super powers. This ritual drained all magic from the region (and life). It destroyed barze, varm, etc and everyone in it. Tyranthraxus's body was destroyed but he persisted as a possession spirit (power he already possessed when he served as leader of the trio nefarious before they bound him in slumber a millennia ago in netheril)

At this point in time thar is now the wasteland it is today.
Vorbyx arrives and establishes his ogre kingdom of thar. He attracts all the ogres from marams armies as well as several demon/ogres from the hidden vale (bred by the feyri and all kindred of storm the ogre).

The ogre kingdom strikes down its neighbour of northkeep using dragons (bought from iyrauroth). It unfortunately cannot afford the upkeep of iyrauroths payments so he destroys the ogre kingdom with an army (iyrauroth practices blood magic so he breeds powerful bloodlines to create races of supermen).

Ologh founds the orc kingdom of thar for iyrauroth and with his blood claim to the throne of vastar and thar he conquers all the orcs from thar to the vast. Iyrauroth then arrives to claim his payment from ologh but ologh refuses and we have a big battle and i think that is where the orc kingdom of thar ends.

Thats my brief outline of thar. Im still working on small details and when i finish with the old empires i might do thar (or moonshaes, or damara/vaasa).

Markustay Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 05:26:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I thought that the Horreb were Thri-Kreen...

Were they? I have no idea. I'm just trying to figure-out what kingdom goes where and when.

Maybe they were Thri-Kreen that identified as Ogres.

{I guess I need to go back through the thread and read the whole thing again...}
Dalor Darden Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 00:27:41
I thought that the Horreb were Thri-Kreen...
Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:38:26
NICE.

Those were the second and third settlements of Barze, after the capital of Pubz was founded... and the people couldn't get along with each other.

You might be speaking of that one-a-year celebration of their 'freedom' from Netheril, when all the people would get rip-roaring drunk (or, at least, drunker than usual), and they'd 'attack' the other settlements in a good, old-fashioned drunken donnbrook. Unfortunately, most of the drunken people from those other settlements also left, to do the same things elsewhere, which lead to a LOT of people waking up in other people's beds... where they sometimes just decided to stay if they felt like it. This sometimes annoyed the few people who didn't participate, but trading one group of rowdy drunks for another isn't really that big a deal, and sometimes the women found themselves with better partners (it definitely kept things 'fresh' - they were a bunch of hedonists in Barze).

Salune got its name after the goddess, and the moon itself. The people there were 'lunatics' - they'd get inebriated and literally 'bark at the moon' (they thought they were werewolves... but they were just stupid drunks).

Speakeasy got its name because of the penchant for the always-hungover inhabitants to constantly say, "Shhhhhh... speak easy" whenever others were being loud after a night of partying.
sleyvas Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, some history...

Disenfranchised Low Netherse flee Netheril (which was rapidly become despotic due to the problems with the Phaerimm) and create a new settlelment to the NE called 'Pubz'. The Arcmage Barze shows up a few years later, and takes control of Pubz, renaming it after himself. Eventually, Barze (the man) was chased out of Barze (the realm) by the Netherese, who absolutely hated any sort of 'competition'. The realm was renamed after the archmage Disk˘s, who lead the assault. Soon after, Nethril itself fell, and within three years Disk˘s fell to the Horred, who came in the night and clubbed everyone to death (thus naming that region "Night Clubs").

Today, on the spot of the original settlement stands only a lonely drinking establishment & Inn, called 'Tavernus' by its Tiefling proprietor (it caters mostly to outsiders who have business on Toril).





Didn't they once have a war with the peoples of Salune and Speakezy?
Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 23:08:34
Okay, some history...

Disenfranchised Low Netherse flee Netheril (which was rapidly become despotic due to the problems with the Phaerimm) and create a new settlelment to the NE called 'Pubz'. The Arcmage Barze shows up a few years later, and takes control of Pubz, renaming it after himself. Eventually, Barze (the man) was chased out of Barze (the realm) by the Netherese, who absolutely hated any sort of 'competition'. The realm was renamed after the archmage Disk˘s, who lead the assault. Soon after, Nethril itself fell, and within three years Disk˘s fell to the Horred, who came in the night and clubbed everyone to death (thus naming that region "Night Clubs").

Today, on the spot of the original settlement stands only a lonely drinking establishment & Inn, called 'Tavernus' by its Tiefling proprietor (it caters mostly to outsiders who have business on Toril).

Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 22:28:48
Okay, cool.

Above you said 'Varm' (as a kingdom, along with Horreb and Barze), but we were also talking about 'The Vane', and I was wondering if that was just a mistype.

Also went back and found Rich Baker's excellent article on Thar, which mentions Oni (Ogre-magi) involvement, and we also have some lore indicative that the Oni/Ogremagi may have taken control away from 'human masters', so we may be able to work all of this out.

I would have loved if Barze was another Netherese survivor-state; I think it was a mistake to place it so far back on the timeline (and make it so short-lived). Of course, there is an easy fix for that as well - Barze became something else after Barze himself left.

I now see Hlontar as well. Hmmmm...

I'm still liking the idea the Dark Three (as a very early part of their plan) brought some Ogremagi* over from Winterkeep (or some other 'forgotten fortress of Raumathar'). They could have created the early kingdom of Horreb, and were the people of the Black Sails - I am picturing a more 'eastern' looking ship-type than Faerűnians are used to, LIKE THIS.


*Or even Oni, and then created the Ogremagi with them.
dazzlerdal Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 22:03:55
Wow lots of stuff to go over here.

I have some answers for you of my own making (regarding horreb) and some explanation of rystall wood, and a rough timeline, but its my bedtime now so i will make a start tomorrow.
Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 21:38:49
Okay, tried finding it. Its 'Rystall Wood'.

And the word appears in the GHotR without any explanation or description, out of thin air. Ya know, when you're a writer/designer, you should never just assume people will know what you are talking about. I am reading through the GHotR entries and STILL have no idea where the hell they are discussing.

I just found it on the map in GHotR (I also notice the Netheril map is simply a copy of the one that came int he box... mistakes and all {sigh}. So the 'Battle of the Bones' (the range of hills it happened in) simply did not exist at the time of NetheriL? The EXACT spot its supposed to be in is named 'The Flats'. So I should assume that range of hills 'happened' during the fall?

Sorry for the off-topic rant - I should have thrown that over in my Mapping thread. I have much to ponder ATM.

I recall having to research this once before, because NOTHING actually tells you where Rystall Woods was, except that one damn map. Can't we just say 'Border Forest'? The elves are all dead, no-one cares what they thought.

Or someone involved with the FRwiki make an entry for it! A simple 'see Border Forest' would be all it would take!!!

EDIT:
Just reading through parts of the scroll again - where did Varm come from?
Markustay Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 21:21:10
***Casts RAISE SCROLL Again ***

Can't believe all of that was only a few months ago... man have I changed my mind about a LOT of stuff.

@Dazzler - Did you ever finish the timeline? There really is a LOT of great info in this thread (and yeah, I am back over this way again, because my 'historic map' made me have to think about what else was around).

@George Krashos - any input here and 'how things played out' in the Moonsea North (and strangely, I now lump The Vast into THAT, since Impiltur is technically part of The Unapproachable East.

The interplay between Barze, Horreb, and Vastar are very important to me right now. It looks like Barze fell just before the Year of Sundered Webs? Wouldn't it make more sense if it fell in that year (or immediately after)? Also, if Barze was up in The Ride, isn't there a tomb associated with that realm too far south for that? (and if lal of this was discussed in the thread already, apologies)

Horreb - could Horreb just be The People of the Black Sails mentioned in previous canon, and Brian James just finally named the place?

What if Horreb was more like a 'Mordor' type country? Or rather, your very generic, atypical 'evil dudes take over region and use orcs/humanoids as fodder' type of place? The Dark Three may have even been involved here. Then 'Big Bad' (that Orc/ogre hero figure) rises in vastar, and spreads HIS 'empire' west and then north, into Thar. At this point, Horreb would be on the decline (maybe its leaders died, moved on, or just turned on each other), and Horreb was 'folded into' Vastar. So we'd have Barze falling because magic fell (which makes the most sense to me), and Horreb not really fallng, so much as being 'absorbed', and as humans, dwarves, and elves pushed the orcs out of the Vast, the kingdom slowly migrated up and around the eastern Moonsea, until 'Vastar' (or what was left of it) was now completely in a new location. By that point, Vatsar may have already disintegrated back into quarreling tribes.

Thus, we have the Orcish kingdom infiltrating and merging with an Ogre-based one, which would keep all of the Thar history straight (in other words, both versions - orc & ogre - of the history would be 'true'). Horreb may have even been lead by Ogre-Magi (I think the timing would be off for the Dark Three, but they may have had some sort of involvment there - perhaps even bringing the ogre magi there form the east, in the first place).

Not loving the Imaskari for Horreb, but if we say the Dark Three (while mortal) were somehow involved with setting the place up, then the magic there may have been of a 'eastern' variety (Myrkul was from Murgh˘m). What if they brought a bunch of Ogremagi from the Taan lands - ogres that had access to Raumathari stuff? A small group that may have been operating out of Winterkeep or Fanlagh - Fanlagh might be better, since it is quasi-my creation (its based off of some unnamed canon), but Winterkeep would ground it in Realmslore better, and it also happened to be the old capital of Raumathar.

My problem is the timing of all this - timelines (and lineages) are not my strongest area. It appears Barze would have fallen at the same time as Nethril, but Horreb would have co-existed with Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath (and the early Elevn Court? Damn, elves are my weakness... I have no idea when they got to that region). For example, I do maps, and I still get confused every time I see 'Rystel Wood'. There is no such place! Stop talking about it!
Markustay Posted - 13 Sep 2017 : 23:49:11
Personally, I would pull 'mankind' out of the original list and replace them with an insectoid race (like, perhaps, the spellweavers).

Humans can go with giants and dragons - 'secondary creators'. I'd say elves as well, but elves are already a creation themselves (of the Fey).
dazzlerdal Posted - 13 Sep 2017 : 07:26:13
Well the spellweavers havent been in the region for 30000 years, what is left is a degenerate hybrid version. Plus the moonsea is little with ancient places of power built by magic powerful races that vanished. We could use the creator races line again and again or maybe its time for something different.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 22:16:02
Thanks Tom!!!

Now I'm stuck on 'Bone Tower' - so much stuff appeared on maps of that region that didn't get any info. Anyone have a link to the old Thar article written by Rich Baker? The old link (back on pg.3, I think) is dead now. I have the map, just not the article. My Google-Fu isn't working so well* (I know there is at least one archive of old articles somewhere).

And I am surprised no-one's ever tried to connect the region to Tharizdun. Of course, he hasn't had a lot of realms 'face time' until recently. Spellweavers just feel wrong for the region, but then again, so do Thr-Kreen. Maybe Spellweavers are a highly-evolved (from the future?) form of Thri-kreen? And we have ogres, some sahuagin, and even an orc or three with four arms... seems the spellweavers were trying to do the 'Creator Race' thing themselves. Maybe they view 'four arms' (six appendages) as 'the perfect form', and anything less offensive (an unevolved animal).


*Ha ha! Got it! " The Google-Fu is strong in this one".
You'll have to C&P, because its the kind of link CK hates - https://web.archive.org/web/20130531140238/http://www.wizards.com/DND/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071217a
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 22:12:06
I think the citadel you want is in the ruins of zhentil keep boxed set. Its an old fortress used sometime when zhentil keep was named flostrens hold and was the site of a battle where some wizards got fried.

Iyrauroth and manshoom have a connection through the cult of the dragon i think. Manshoon influenced the formation of that mini flight of dragons in the moonsea and dalelands. Iyrauroth undoubtedly provided quite a few dragons to it. He is in command of more than a few younger dragons and he is not above thinning their ranks periodically to maintain his position (as the attack on northkeep shows).

I wouldnt be surprised if iyrauroth and manshoon were playing a game of chess of sorts for control of the moonsea.
TomCosta Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:41:21
I sent out Bestiaries 1 and 2 and Prestige in the Realms.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:24:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



Iyrauroth rather predates Manshoon. Cult of the Dragon has Iyrauroth active in 572 DR; Manshoon was born in 1229 DR.

Manshoon's fallen mount was Orlgaun. I don't think we have much info about him, other than Manshoon rode him and he died due to wounds taking fighting Shandril Shessair.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:06:43
I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name* (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



*I just checked - its name was Orlgaun. Probably short for something with WAY too many letters.
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 19:47:50
Not sure if i did the newer timeline or not. Everything i do evolves with each region so its different now after doing netheril.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 19:43:52
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I have copies of the forging the realms articles and the bestiaries one and two so i will email them over if I can find your address.
Markustay2012@hotmail.com

And thanks



P.S. - so you never did a newer version of the timeline? Or did I just miss it somehow? Anyhow, hopefully a new map of the region will get everyone (including you) excited again - there is SO MUCH on so many different maps; once I start combining it all its going to be almost as crowded as Cormyr!

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