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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Markustay Posted - 19 Aug 2017 : 19:49:18
So, as I am working on this 5e map (which isn't even close to me showing a WIP), I am writing lore in my head, and I need a place to jot things down where they won't clutter other threads (which have already succumbed to massive cross-thread pollination).

First up, Ra-Khati. What? You've never heard of Ra-Khati? It was so important its on the back cover of the Fonstad Forgotten Realms Atlas (along with Khazari and Guge... what? You never heard of Guge?! Nevermind...) It was the focus of an important(?) 3-episode AP even*. It was so important that the Tuigan ignore it in the novels (although a group of them make an appearance in the adventures). It also got some weird, quasi-canonical lore in 4e in Open Grave, which I had disliked and planned to ignore, but have decided I may use the whole thing (since we now have a century to fill-in, why not?) Unfortunately, the only part I am going to have trouble converting/using is that a certain someone got a character's class wrong. But I can fix that...

Poor little Ra-Khati. Once a major trading 'hub' after the fall of Imaskar, now just a memory. Lets start with canon: It was doing just fine, and had a trade-city right outside its official borders - Kushk. In fact, The Iron Road was THE trade route between east and west for centuries (despite the high tariffs the Dalai Lama {don't ask} imposes). Things were going fine for awhile, even with the draconic problems plaguing the kingdoms (survivor-states) to the west. But the desert kept growing - the obliteration of Lake Aoskar (that name is non-canon) had left the Plains of Purple Dust in ruin, and the lack of water in the region was growing steadily worse, despite the best efforts by the surviving Sorcerer-Kings. Eventually a powerful bound efreet (Khalitharius) managed to free itself from the grasp of an archmage (Martek), and wreaked havoc while his 'master' was away battling other threats. Although greatly weakened by his other tasks, Martek managed to trap the Efreet 'for a thousand years', before sealing himself away to recover from his ordeals. But the damage to the barely-surviving Kingdoms had been done, and as the land dried-up, so too, did the life of the realms. This is all covered in the Desert of Desolation AP.**

A thousand years later and the only remnant of the 'Kingdoms of the Raurin' is the citystate of Solon, now ruled by a Monk named Ambuchar Devyam, and Solon itself is dying husk of what was once a burgeoning empire itself. Ambuchar slowly turns to evil (some think it was a curse in the ruins of Solon, which is actually close to the truth - he uncovered the phylactory of Tan Chin, the 1st emperor of Shou-Lung, and was 'possessed' by the Ghost {Suel} Lich). He eventually attacks Kushk - the only worthwhile target nearby, and enslaves the few remaining citizens that the waning city still had. The Dalai Lama fears (and rightly so) an attack on Ra-Khati itself is imminent, and cuts the ancient chain-bridge that crosses the Jumpa Gorge. This is how things stand, pretty much, at the outset of the Hordelands adventures, FRA1-3, which is maybe a dozen years after Kushk was destroyed.

Those adventures happen, and it ends with Princess Bhrokiti of Ra-Khati and Prince Hubadai (Yamun Khahan's son) having a kinda 'thing' for each other (The Tuigan actually help the good guys in this, because this is more of 'vs evil magic' kind of thing, and Tuigan HATE magic). Supposedly it all ended well... supposedly...

Fast forward to 4e and the lore in Open Grave. Turns out they didn't quite 'kill' the ultimate evil, Tan Chin. But the names are slightly different (because technically, the stuff under the Hantumah entry is 'core'), so I can run with that. Instead of saying 'Raja Thirayam' = Abuchar Devayam (Tan Chin), I am going to say that Thirayam was a descendant (grandson?) of Ambuchar Devyam, which may sound weird on the surface, but we had lore in the old Utter East thread (at WotC) pertaining to the nature of Tan Chin, and Ambuchar. Tan Chin is a type of lich that 'possesses' people, but unlike your typical Suel lich, he has figured out how to leave said 'hosts' for a time, and even use other hosts, allowing him to have multiple personas, and also keeping such useful bodies around for much longer (the lich 'riding' the victim burns-out their life energy - they age much more rapidly, so most 'hosts' are not good for more than a decade, normally). He really liked the Monk Abuchar's body, and tried to use it as little as possible. The Monk thought he was suffering some sort of illness or curse, and had 'blackout periods' (and it distressed him when he heard how much suffering he causes when he 'blacks out'). Eventually, the monk became skilled enough to achieve Diamond Body, which negated the aging effects of Tan Chin 'riding' him. ANYHOW, that wasn't Ambuchar (who may still be alive), it was his grandson or some-such, who actually became a willing disciple of Tan Chin (after he uncovered his final phylactory- the same one his grandfather had found years earlier). Turns out, old Tan Chin wasn't nearly as 'dead' (re-dead?) as folks thought (the canon of the modules is superceeded by the quasi-canon of the 4e source, in this case).

Raja Thirayam takes over Ra-Khati in a whirlwind surprise attack, and turns many of the people into undead. He calls his new kingdom 'Hantuma', and it gains a fell reputation for many years (most of the 'lost century', in fact). There were 'four companions' that challeneged his rule, and they were, in turn, made into his undead servitors, and became his chief lieutenants, known as 'Sceptenars'. Bhrokiti is now called VasaBhakti, and probably doesn't remember much about her former life.

There are three other, unnamed and undetailed Sceptenars, and I would assume Hubadai is one as well (he would not have abandoned her). We could also assume the other two were probably 'Westerners', and part of the adventuring party that tried to kill Tan Chin in the AP, but they could actually be almost anybody. Since the first two are 'royalty', it might make it fun to have them be 'of royal blood' from Semphar & Murghôm. Tan Chin does some magic regarding 'royal blood' in his own regard, so he may have reasons for choosing such people. I am starting to see a lot of Orochimaru (Naruto) in Tan Chin, right down to the 'Curse Marks' (Stamp of Tan Chin). In fact, in some ways, the similarities are striking (and since those APs came out 5 years BEFORE Naruto, I would say Troy Denning or Hasbro might want to check into that).

That's the history, and its 98% canon (I may have 'flavored' certain things, but none of it goes against any canon, in any source, even when the sources themselves are inconsistent). Now here comes the new stuff: Sometime just before the 2nd (3rd?) Sundering, 'something' falls from the sky. Maybe its a piece of a primordial. Maybe its Roseanne Barr's underwear... no-one knows for sure. Whatever it was, it hits the central part of Hantumah (formerly Ra-Khati) and creates a massive crater, destroying most of that country and the surrounding area. One thing that managed to survive was the old city of Kushk, which was resettled and is now the home of the 'Resistance', The Lighbringers (that part is also from Open Grave, but the 'nearby valley' I turned into Kushk).

Vasabhakti is still 'alive' - she was in her own 'southern capital' of Khatiroon when the meteor struck. The status of the other three Sceptenars is unknown. The newly-formed lake (where the mountains use to be) is a foul and evil place, and the Lightbringers still have their work cut out for them. As for the lake itself, Shou-Lung seized the region (they always considered Ra-Khati 'theirs' anyway) and built a canal to to Brightstar Lake in just five years (I actually researched canals heavily, and found out not only is this possible - the ancient Chinese built the Grand Canal of China - a whopping 1794 miles long! - in just FOUR YEARS).

So I am taking a realm that was useless, very similar to nearby Khazari, and also redundant with both the far-better detailed Tabot and the 'legendary' Langdarma in FR lore, and putting it to insanely good use, as both a great adventuring area (although a bit redundant with Thay... but without the Zulkirs/Red Wizards!), and a way of having the Shou be able to access the Sea of Fallen Stars without depending upon that silly Gate in the Dragonmere (which probably blew-up during the Spellplague, because it hasn't been mentioned since 3e). It was also a region that had several small (actually large, when you think about the size of FR maps) lakes, so the fact the crater filled-in rather quickly from the run-off makes sense (it still has mountains on at least two sides).

So ends my "Ra-Khati: We hardly knew ye".


*I never noticed - Troy Denning had written those adventures.
** I slightly respun what went on with Martek. In the official AP, he had sealed away the Efreet for a thousand years, and then put himself in suspended animation, so that adventurers can come along a thousand years later - when the efreet finally got out of his imprisonment - so that Martek himself can confront the efreet and destroy it once and for all. One HUGE plot-hole (and this was written by the Dragonlance authors!): If he could defeat the efreet all along, why the **** did he go to sleep for a thousand years?

So I added-in that stuff about him being exhausted, and just arriving home from 'other battles'. He needed a thousand-year nap to feel good-enough to finally take-out the efreet.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 06 Nov 2017 : 01:24:11
I'm surprised you didn't jump all over The Tumulus - I know how much you love a good mystery.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Let's go a simpler path. Glaeros was an Imaskari. It fits the story of sorcerers against gods. It fits a magical desert getting created. Maybe Glaeros is a very powerful Imaskari, and when the emperor dies.... he jets along with dozens of other powerful Imaskari to another major city of Imaskar. When he leaves, he takes the item which is a key somehow to the Imaskari Godswall (what this item is, I'm not defining). He then hides this key away, but not before studying it to get a base understanding of what the original Imaskari who built the Godswall had achieved. It leads him down the path to create the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings, in hopes of creating an item that can eject specific deities manifestations physically out of the crystal sphere when used against them. It will theoretically also prevent said body from being able to cross the shell of the crystal sphere ever again (thus the need to make a NEW manifestation and transport it in). It should be noted that this would work against any Toril bound deity, including many demi-gods.

The manifestations of the Mulan deities get wind of this creation, from none other than Assuran, Lord of the Three Thunders.... who had seen the powerful lust for revenge in Glaeros' heart despite the man not being a follower of the gods. They send divine minions to assault Glaeros and interrupt the ritual sealing the magic of the artifact, and as a result, the magic goes awry (though one wonders if it ever would have worked exactly as he had hoped). Specifically, Assuran has twisted the magic, so that it instead randomly affects other deities, such that this Glaeros or anyone who uses it will become the enemy of ALL gods (a fitting bit of poetic justice).

The assault on Glaeros is deadly, and it devastates a portion of the Raurin, forcing the spread of the plains of purple dust. Several other Sorcerer Kings die. One escapes with the scepter, and eventually it ends up in a Netherese enclave. Someone later loots said enclave and performs a "reading" of the psychic imprint of the artifact and gets imagery of "sorcerers fighting gods" and a "land being turned into desert during the fight". Being that the exact nature of Anauroch's creation is little known, the people confuse this and believe that they've seen Anauroch's creation when some Netherese wizards fought against deities.

I almost feel like you started simplifing it, and then re-complicated it. Its not all that different from mine (we just both spun it to our own HB lore).

Artifact gets created in Imaskar, artifact gets transported/stolen out of Imaskar and wind up in Netheril. Artifact is later found after Netheril falls, and people 'misinterpret' their divinations about it (two mighty magical empires both turned into desert due to the hubris of their Mages).

I think, perhaps, I like what you did there with the 'key' - that was nice. Then we don't have to get into the whole 'was it or wasn't it an Imaskarna (and greater or lesser)?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and later, during the time of troubles... some god finds that key that had been hidden away which was forcing the Mulan gods to stay in manifestation form. They assume that somehow THIS is how Ao is keeping them bound to Toril. Said god decides he's going to destroy this key and use its energy to return to the outer planes. Who was this god? What happened to him? It would probably make a darn good story, no? Tell me who YOU think would make for a good god to have done this.
An unknown (in Toril) God, because what the Godwall magic actually does is make people forget about gods; if no-one within a sphere is a follower, the God is automatically blocked as per Ao's rules. A God simply cannot enter a sphere in which not a single mortal being is thinking about them (unless granted access by the Sphere's guardian Overpower).

So you can basically use any god you want (to bring itno the Realms, in your game - its a great 'all-purpose McGuffin'), including ones from real pantheons, ones from other settings, ones from non-FR novels, or one you make-up whole cloth.

We have several gods in Faer0n who are 'forgotten' (their name, unlike 'lost gods', who just couldn't find their way home LOL). Finder was one, Kiaransalee another. There is that power 'trapped' somewhere off the coast of Aglarond that no-one remembers (and while I am in the vicinity, several Yuir Totems as well).

And then there is the 'human creator god', but I think people forgot his name MUCH further back in the past. Like 1st Sundering old.

Maybe the scepter went to Golarion for a time, about a century back (like when the Spellplague hit)? Maybe that's what happened to Aroden? Someone locked him out?

Hey Paizo, I just used The Forgotten Realms to explain your entire setting.
Markustay Posted - 06 Nov 2017 : 00:32:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Aye, the source is Lost Empires of Faerun and the piece was written by Ed Bonny. Its still possible that the scepter you speak of is a replica of the fifth Imaskarcana of some sort though.

Lord Artificer Omanond is credited with the command of the construction of all Imaskarcana and Lord-General Dimarond is said to have wield it during his battles on the stairs of the palace in Inupras.



If anything, this proves that the two are NOT the same. The fifth Imaskarcana is something else entirely in LEoF than the item described in the book of artifacts.
There are (canonically) two sets of Imaskarna - a 'lesser' set, and a set of 'Greater Imaskarcana'. They had to do that because they were written up in Dragon Magazine, and then someone didn't realize that and wrote up a different set somewhere.

Which is why there now has to be three sets of Nether scrolls - the Netherese don't like the Imaskari catching up to them.
sleyvas Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 23:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

To be honest, I would just take that 2e lore and adapt it to Imaskar, instead. At the time that was written Imaskar was barely even heard of (I think it may have first been named in The Horde boxed set). Netheril was THE 'big bad fallen empire' back then, that was dominating all our lore concerning Faerûn. It even got its own boxed set, even though it no longer existed. Then we have 3e with its new 'Sorcerer' class, which isn't anything at all how arcanists (wizards) worked.

I'd even spin it as an 'in setting' misconception. The scpeter was created in Imaskar, stolen, and then re-used by some Netherese (who, by the way, worshiped gods and NEVER tried to block any, thus making that lore suspect to begin with). Someone probably found it in Netherese ruins, assumed it was Netherese in origin*, and the brought it to same great sage or sold it to some wizard with a penchant for divination magic, they probably did some investigating (a spell) to see what it was, its history, and what it was used for, and it went something like this...

"In times long past, the ancient empire that now lies forgotten beneath the sands created the Scepter as a means to..."

And the Sage/Wizard copied that info in his notes, simply saying 'Netheril' for the first part, not even knowing about far-off Imaskar and its similar history. In later years, it probably baffled other Scholars who know that many Netherese were devout god-worshipers, and followers of Mytryl.


*EDIT:
And once again, if you use/adapt some of my homebrew lore regarding Thaeravel, it technically was 'Netherese', since it was Thaeravelian, and that Realm got folded into Netheril. Then everything works out, lore-wise.

EDIT2:
And I am loathe to even suggest this, but if you simply replace Hilathar with Glaeros Lhaerimm in my HB musings, it may all work out even better. I'm not fond of that, because of the other ways I've interconnected all the lore, but we can always say Halaster was just one more Sorcerer living in Thaeravel, along with Glaeros. They would have each had their own agenda (there may have been a whole group that left together, each building his own alabaster tower), and Halaster would have still been investigating alternative sources of power, including the Shadoweave... which he may have even inadvertently 'created', with his experimentation (unknowingly steered by Shar, of course).

Then Glaeros becomes the one who who pledges fealty to the Netherese and joins them. Then all the lore makes perfect sense (mostly). Halster can even still be the 'main man' who got Thaeravel started (an enclave for Imaskari sorcerers who were dabbling in things that their peers might not find to their liking).

EDIT3:
Although, it wouldn't really make sense for a guy like Glaeros to have left Imaskar voluntarily; not if he was the one responsible for the Godwall in the first place. More likely he knew about Hilathar's enclave, ad when the poop hit the fan (in Imaskar), he grabbed the scepter and fled... to Netheril. Because by the time, Thaeravel would have been long-fallen.

He may have even started his own enclave, as I've suggested Halaster did (although neither of them would have been 'Netherese enough' to create a flying enclave). That gives us the fun opportunity to imagine a 'godless' hidden enclave somewhere 9considering where i think Halaster built his - Sargauth - I'm thinking the Imaskari always had this thing about 'hiding underground'. Perhaps we can blame that on their (hypothetical) fey bloodlines, as well.

Related Theory: Perhaps something subterranean - most likely Faerzress radiation - interferes with scrying, which is why the Imaskari (and the fey before them) like to hide stuff (and themselves) underground. IIRC, Faerzress does do that.


Hmmmm... could The Tumulus actually be Gaelros' secret, 'god-proof' enclave?



Let's go a simpler path. Glaeros was an Imaskari. It fits the story of sorcerers against gods. It fits a magical desert getting created. Maybe Glaeros is a very powerful Imaskari, and when the emperor dies.... he jets along with dozens of other powerful Imaskari to another major city of Imaskar. When he leaves, he takes the item which is a key somehow to the Imaskari Godswall (what this item is, I'm not defining). He then hides this key away, but not before studying it to get a base understanding of what the original Imaskari who built the Godswall had achieved. It leads him down the path to create the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings, in hopes of creating an item that can eject specific deities manifestations physically out of the crystal sphere when used against them. It will theoretically also prevent said body from being able to cross the shell of the crystal sphere ever again (thus the need to make a NEW manifestation and transport it in). It should be noted that this would work against any Toril bound deity, including many demi-gods.

The manifestations of the Mulan deities get wind of this creation, from none other than Assuran, Lord of the Three Thunders.... who had seen the powerful lust for revenge in Glaeros' heart despite the man not being a follower of the gods. They send divine minions to assault Glaeros and interrupt the ritual sealing the magic of the artifact, and as a result, the magic goes awry (though one wonders if it ever would have worked exactly as he had hoped). Specifically, Assuran has twisted the magic, so that it instead randomly affects other deities, such that this Glaeros or anyone who uses it will become the enemy of ALL gods (a fitting bit of poetic justice).

The assault on Glaeros is deadly, and it devastates a portion of the Raurin, forcing the spread of the plains of purple dust. Several other Sorcerer Kings die. One escapes with the scepter, and eventually it ends up in a Netherese enclave. Someone later loots said enclave and performs a "reading" of the psychic imprint of the artifact and gets imagery of "sorcerers fighting gods" and a "land being turned into desert during the fight". Being that the exact nature of Anauroch's creation is little known, the people confuse this and believe that they've seen Anauroch's creation when some Netherese wizards fought against deities.

Oh, and later, during the time of troubles... some god finds that key that had been hidden away which was forcing the Mulan gods to stay in manifestation form. They assume that somehow THIS is how Ao is keeping them bound to Toril. Said god decides he's going to destroy this key and use its energy to return to the outer planes. Who was this god? What happened to him? It would probably make a darn good story, no? Tell me who YOU think would make for a good god to have done this.
sleyvas Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 23:25:32
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Aye, the source is Lost Empires of Faerun and the piece was written by Ed Bonny. Its still possible that the scepter you speak of is a replica of the fifth Imaskarcana of some sort though.

Lord Artificer Omanond is credited with the command of the construction of all Imaskarcana and Lord-General Dimarond is said to have wield it during his battles on the stairs of the palace in Inupras.



If anything, this proves that the two are NOT the same. The fifth Imaskarcana is something else entirely in LEoF than the item described in the book of artifacts.
Markustay Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 19:07:47
Oh, and after reading through some doctor Strange (Marvel Comics) lore yesterday, I've decided to borrow even more from their 'magic history stuff'. I've always loved the way marvel did their cosmos (much more 'mystical' than DC ever did), and weirdly, Doc Strange was one of my least-favorite Marvel characters back when I still read comics. Seems I missed out on quite a bit of great story-telling.

I really like the whole Vishanti thing, and Hoggoth makes a great Marvel-aspect of Aslanobanion. The whole story-line involving Set and Chthon (I use 'Cthon') is just perfect for some of my Over-cosmology.
Markustay Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 18:28:56
To be honest, I would just take that 2e lore and adapt it to Imaskar, instead. At the time that was written Imaskar was barely even heard of (I think it may have first been named in The Horde boxed set). Netheril was THE 'big bad fallen empire' back then, that was dominating all our lore concerning Faerûn. It even got its own boxed set, even though it no longer existed. Then we have 3e with its new 'Sorcerer' class, which isn't anything at all how arcanists (wizards) worked.

I'd even spin it as an 'in setting' misconception. The scpeter was created in Imaskar, stolen, and then re-used by some Netherese (who, by the way, worshiped gods and NEVER tried to block any, thus making that lore suspect to begin with). Someone probably found it in Netherese ruins, assumed it was Netherese in origin*, and the brought it to same great sage or sold it to some wizard with a penchant for divination magic, they probably did some investigating (a spell) to see what it was, its history, and what it was used for, and it went something like this...

"In times long past, the ancient empire that now lies forgotten beneath the sands created the Scepter as a means to..."

And the Sage/Wizard copied that info in his notes, simply saying 'Netheril' for the first part, not even knowing about far-off Imaskar and its similar history. In later years, it probably baffled other Scholars who know that many Netherese were devout god-worshipers, and followers of Mytryl.


*EDIT:
And once again, if you use/adapt some of my homebrew lore regarding Thaeravel, it technically was 'Netherese', since it was Thaeravelian, and that Realm got folded into Netheril. Then everything works out, lore-wise.

EDIT2:
And I am loathe to even suggest this, but if you simply replace Hilathar with Glaeros Lhaerimm in my HB musings, it may all work out even better. I'm not fond of that, because of the other ways I've interconnected all the lore, but we can always say Halaster was just one more Sorcerer living in Thaeravel, along with Glaeros. They would have each had their own agenda (there may have been a whole group that left together, each building his own alabaster tower), and Halaster would have still been investigating alternative sources of power, including the Shadoweave... which he may have even inadvertently 'created', with his experimentation (unknowingly steered by Shar, of course).

Then Glaeros becomes the one who who pledges fealty to the Netherese and joins them. Then all the lore makes perfect sense (mostly). Halster can even still be the 'main man' who got Thaeravel started (an enclave for Imaskari sorcerers who were dabbling in things that their peers might not find to their liking).

EDIT3:
Although, it wouldn't really make sense for a guy like Glaeros to have left Imaskar voluntarily; not if he was the one responsible for the Godwall in the first place. More likely he knew about Hilathar's enclave, ad when the poop hit the fan (in Imaskar), he grabbed the scepter and fled... to Netheril. Because by the time, Thaeravel would have been long-fallen.

He may have even started his own enclave, as I've suggested Halaster did (although neither of them would have been 'Netherese enough' to create a flying enclave). That gives us the fun opportunity to imagine a 'godless' hidden enclave somewhere 9considering where i think Halaster built his - Sargauth - I'm thinking the Imaskari always had this thing about 'hiding underground'. Perhaps we can blame that on their (hypothetical) fey bloodlines, as well.

Related Theory: Perhaps something subterranean - most likely Faerzress radiation - interferes with scrying, which is why the Imaskari (and the fey before them) like to hide stuff (and themselves) underground. IIRC, Faerzress does do that.


Hmmmm... could The Tumulus actually be Gaelros' secret, 'god-proof' enclave?
Bladewind Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 13:55:04
Aye, the source is Lost Empires of Faerun and the piece was written by Ed Bonny. Its still possible that the scepter you speak of is a replica of the fifth Imaskarcana of some sort though.

Lord Artificer Omanond is credited with the command of the construction of all Imaskarcana and Lord-General Dimarond is said to have wield it during his battles on the stairs of the palace in Inupras.
sleyvas Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 12:16:50
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings is the fifth Imaskarcana, I think we can be sure it was made by an Imaskari Artificer.




Just to make sure... from what resource?

This is what I see in the Book of Artifacts, which admittedly is very old (copyright 1993, where the Netheril boxed set is 1995).

In reading the history below, it doesn't exactly scream Netheril, as they weren't commonly known as running around "fighting gods. It also speaks of creating Anauroch by the Netherese involved, which would fit more with the concept that the Plains of Purple Dust had some formation with the godly battle (though we've also discussed Martek's involvement as well). In fact, it would sound more like something crafted AFTER the big godswar with the Imaskari (so after the Imaskarcana were created), but by remnants left from the Imaskari Empire (similar to how Thayd and his Theurgist Adepts stood up MUCH later). Makes me wonder if the Imaskari and godly manifestations didn't actually continue their war for say another couple centuries with remnants of the Imaskari from more far flung regions possibly picking off manifestations and destroying Mulan settlements.

It is said that in long-ago Netheril there lived sorcerer-kings of such might that they arrogantly considered themselves the equals of gods, and as if to prove their claim, they crafted items of truly reckless power. Their wanton destruction worried the other inhabitants of Faerun, and some even called on their gods to humble the mighty sorcerer-kings. The world shook with these battles, or so it is said. In their arrogance, the sorcerer-kings decided to rid themselves of these "meddling deities."

Instrumental in this evil plan was Glaeros Lhaerimm, a man many sages blame for causing the spread of Anauroch, the Great Desert. Glaeros crafted the Scepter in a grim process that drained the lives of a dozen apprentices. Noting his ambition, the deities sent minions to stop him, but each one was destroyed by the other sorcerer-kings. Finally, as Glaeros began the final stages, the divine minions broke through his defenses and destroyed him. The unfinished Scepter was then snatched up by another of the Netherese sorcerer-kings, who used it to escape the fray.

In the centuries since, the Scepter has turned up in the hands of many wizards and warlords, the most notable being the lich known as "the Harper King." Stolen from that undead ruler before his destruction, the Scepter disappeared from view for many years. A dozen years ago, a mysterious merchant-mage may have used it in Sembia, to fight free of an attack by the Red Wizards of Thay (who presumably knew what he bore). The whereabouts of this mage and the
Scepter are presently unknown.
Markustay Posted - 05 Nov 2017 : 05:59:13
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings is the fifth Imaskarcana, I think we can be sure it was made by an Imaskari Artificer.
So I was pretty-much 'on the money'.

That particular Scepter was taken from imaskar and later 'recovered' in the region of Netheril, so my scenario about Thaeravel and Halaster is somewhat more likely.

In fact, we can really go to town - what if the scepter was placed in some sort of 'arcanometric enhancer' (Imaskari magcal thingummie device), and its powered was increased and made 'perpetual' (so an artifact, placed inside another artifact, like how artifurnace work). Then Halaster steals it and brings it to Thaeravel.

The Mulan gods - having spent a century or three walking around the outside of the Crustal Sphere tapping it with a 10' pole, looking for 'secret doors', suddenly had one open up in front of Re/Ra; "Hey guys! I found a way in!"

Halaster's Highharvestide ain't got nuthin' on what happened next.
He may have even done it at the orders of Mystryl.
Bladewind Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 15:01:14
The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings is the fifth Imaskarcana, I think we can be sure it was made by an Imaskari Artificer.

Aye, I like that all the gods of magic are back but not necessarily the same. I really like a bonkers Azuth drifting towards LE...

Regarding the "multiple" astral planes of Toril, I actually have used it in most of my 3.5 campaigns, but more as a border made by the meddling of the worlds pantheons (i.e. the regional astral controlled by the Mulan pantheon, the Celestial Bureaucracy, the Faerunian Pantheon or the Zakhara enlightened faith) than as a impenetrable barrier that divides the cosmologies of other worlds. There is enough evidence for inter and intraplanar portals, planar rivers and astral projection into the vastness that is the Astral Skies that the astral plane goes well beyond the control of the deities. One can see this in planar rivers such as the Styx that crosses the borders of fiendish realms or the Celestial Shores lapping mount Celestia: you travel first the shores, then sea, then astral oceans and eventually reach domains that are considered locally tied to Oerth or Krynn, with shores lapping mount Celestia from a different angle. Astral Skies or Depths I have used as ways to eventually reach the positive (plane of radiance/soulforge) or negative planes (plane of void/annihilation).
sleyvas Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 13:40:42
Lol, so throwing this together with my list of what I've been calling the "new" gods of magic:

Azuth: Spent the last century sharing a mind with the lord of the nine hells

Velsharoon: I've always felt he and Mellifleur were "sharing" Mellifleur's phylactery, and therefore "his duplicitous nature" was more a case of split personality

Leira: She lies, tells the truth, lies about lies, tells the truth about lying, constantly etc....

Savras: imprisoned away for centuries by the one god who ostensibly should have been his best friend, such that he has trust issues. Yet his closest ally in the past century has been the goddess of lies.

Karsus: nutbars as a mortal who saw all kinds of mortals ascending to godhood (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Mellifleur), and decides he can do the same thing. Only to pick the most disastrous target, die, and have his stone body actually stay on Toril instead of the Astral... some sources indicating this creating the shadow weave.

Deneir: tried to write himself into the Metatext during the spellplague and disappeared (repercussions?)

The remaining "gods of magic" .... not sure of them, because either they just have a bare toehold and are more focused elsewhere (the Red Knight as a goddess of spell strategy, but more a goddess of tactics and warfare) or we don't know much about them (Auppenser, Kereska the Wonderbringer).
Zeromaru X Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 01:39:30
Incidentally, Azuth was mad in the three last novels of the Brimstone Angels saga. He even made his own chosen, Ilstan, to went mad because his own madness. We don't know if he was healed after he became a god again.

BTW, as I see it, the Imaskari Godswall was a focused effect (only blocked gods from entering in the Astral plane of Toril and only if they came from the world of the ancestors of the mulani), while the Scepter was a more general thing (it blocked a god from Toril at all in any form). I believe that the perfected form of that spell (one that could block all gods from Toril at all) was underway when Netheril fell.
Markustay Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 01:28:18
Okay, bear with me....

In MY homebrew musings, I have it where Thaeravel was originally an Imaskari enclave... founded by Hilather (Halaster). He set up shop there to study the 'strange energies' emanating from beneath the Tunlands. He brought with him a bunch of his followers (and perhaps some Mulan slaves), so it was very small group, but because of his (Alabaster) Tower, and the rather advanced 'methodology' those folk approached everything (farming, etc), the settlement grew and grew - mostly local Talfir tribes joined him, but there may have been others. Over time, his apprentices built towers of their own, and settlements formed around them, and Thaeravel - "The Land of Alabaster Towers" came to be. It wasn't any sort of official realm - more like a small confederation of allied wizards. After a time, the nearby Gur that settled in Seventon started to become magically powerful themselves, and expanded into a true nation... one that would eventually attack and overpower (and absorb) Thaeravel.

Now, Thaeravel was actually the realm of the 'Sorcerer Kings' - scepter technology came from there. It was magitech specifically designed by Halaster and his apprentices - 'Sorcerers' (Southern magi) all. Sorcery comes from the south; in fact, it originated in Zakhara. Thanks to their Fey bloodlines, the Imaskari were powerful Sorcerers... but other folks knew them as 'artificers', for their penchant to build complex magical wonders. When Thaeravel fell, the Netherese seized all their magic and knowledge, including the knowledge of scepters, and Shadow magic (the very thing Halaster was investigating and experimenting with). Since Netheril wound up with that stuff, and Thaeravel became part of Netheril, it became falsely associated with the 'Sorcerer Kings'. The scepter and other such devices were indeed created by the 'Sorcerer kings', but they were then stolen by the Netherese, so that explains the confusion regarding them, and the name.

Some connecting canon:
1) Halaster was known for experimenting with Shadow Magic, and there is DEFINITELY something strange going on under the Tunlands. Halaster even eventually lost his mind because of his 'shadow dabblings'. He is also mentioned in at least one context as having 'Netherese contemporaries', so he may have hid his identity and become Netherese himself for a time.

2) The Talfir were all over that region, and they themselves became later known for their use of 'Shadow magic' (see The Shadowking).

3) Netheril didn't seem to be going down a 'dark path' until after taking over Thaeravel (although one could argue attacking and killing tons of your neighbors was pretty damn dark to begin with... unless they - or the Terraseer - feared what he was experimenting with).

4) In The Ring of Winter, it is mentioned that Lord Dhalmass Rayburton (one has to wonder why his parents named him after rice wrapped in grape leaves) finds the ring in Mulhorand ruins, somewhere just north of Cormyr. Now, some folks have chalked that up to a mistake in an early realms book... but was it? I think if Mulan culture is based on Imaskari culture, and the Imaskari were in the area, then it stands to reason Lord Rayburton actually discovered Thaeravelian ruins.

Once Halaster had learned all he can from the Netherese (and that's probably when Larloch first took note of him), he left to found his own enclave in Sargauth (Undermountain). He later leaves Sargauth, and during that time Netheril falls, and the enclave explodes. He returns much later and begins anew, with a new group of students. One has to wonder if he was a chosen of Mystryl (we are not sure on that one) - was he summoned by Mystryl to have him stop Karsus from completing his fated ritual? Larloch was also 'not at home' (in HIS enclave) when it crashed, and we know he was a Chosen of Mystryl - could it be she tried to get her Chosen to intervene, because she couldn't, but they were both too late? could the last thing both of them saw was the look in each other's eyes as Netheril fell? (both feeling shame for having failed their goddess). Halaster loses his mind (he was headed that way anyway), and Larloch becomes an embittered old lich. Makes you wonder about the 5e Azuth and Savras, eh?

Its not like they were 'friends', either. History does have a tendency to repeat itself.
sleyvas Posted - 04 Nov 2017 : 00:51:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But theirs could be mass produced, not? That could be troublesome. Even more if they could refine the magical effect to bar the gods.

I'm starting to think that Karsus' Folly wasn't just the efforts of a mortal wizard. A few gods wanting to get rid of both Mystril and Netheril may have had their input as well...



Just as much as any artifact can be mass produced... which isn't likely.

On that thought with Karsus.... now you may be onto something there.
Zeromaru X Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 23:23:01
But theirs could be mass produced, not? That could be troublesome. Even more if they could refine the magical effect to bar the gods.

I'm starting to think that Karsus' Folly wasn't just the efforts of a mortal wizard. A few gods wanting to get rid of both Mystril and Netheril may have had their input as well...
sleyvas Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 22:44:41
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was reading the Powers & Pantheon book, and it seems that the method used by the Imaskari is similar to that used to create the "Scepter of the Sorcerers-Kings" (that is described in a book called Encyclopedia Magica Vol.3, that I have no access to). Making some searching here and here, it seems the Scepter is Netherese in origin. Shouldn't surprise me, seeing what Karsus did...

quote:

"The artifact had a power that could seal Toril off from the gods, thus preventing them from manifesting on the planet in any form."


For what it seems, the Netherese also "hacked the code", and their method was more OP than the Imaskari.



Theirs was much more short term though (only 10 days) and more troubling... it was random on which deity it would affect. Given the hundreds of deities in the realms, trying to banish a specific deity for 10 days would be useless.... and likely to get you wiped from the world when a deity returns.
Zeromaru X Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 21:55:07
I was reading the Powers & Pantheon book, and it seems that the method used by the Imaskari is similar to that used to create the "Scepter of the Sorcerers-Kings" (that is described in a book called Encyclopedia Magica Vol.3, that I have no access to). Making some searching here and here, it seems the Scepter is Netherese in origin. Shouldn't surprise me, seeing what Karsus did...

quote:

"The artifact had a power that could seal Toril off from the gods, thus preventing them from manifesting on the planet in any form."


For what it seems, the Netherese also "hacked the code", and their method was more OP than the Imaskari.
Markustay Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 17:40:11
Well, it could be something as simple as that when an Overpower turns 'cosmic immigration' off, the sphere is closed, so that neither SJ methods, PLanescape methods, nor Divine Interloping will work.

The big hole in all of that is that SJing is precisely how the Mulan gods 'snuck in'. But then again, I believe the Imaskari 'hacked the code', and it wasn't supposed to be set to 'off', and since their methodology was imprecise (in regards to how to turn certain 'laws of physics' on & off within a Crystal Sphere), they basically left a back-door open. I think if Ao (or some other Overpower) wanted to block Divine Immigration, they be able to block it completely.

I had it (a long time ago) where the Vedic pantheon managed to get into Realmspace via dreams - they sent Avatars to merge with dreamers, thus creating Manifestations. Rather then Spelljamming, they used the Plane of Dreams. However, my latest musings has me thinking that pantheon may have 'always been there' (in Malatra), so despite the fact I love some of the mythos I developed around that, I may just have to lose it.
sleyvas Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 12:14:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Notice the worlds/settings without gods are ALWAYS 'closed spheres' (like Athas as well) - why is that? One condition must be the direct result of the other.

And its funny how the filters here at CK don't like it when I accidentally drop the 'o' in the word 'count'.



Technically though, Eberron has gods, just we don't know where to find them or even if they exist in any kind of physical form. For all we know, all the gods are just manifestations of dreams. That all being said, I won't claim to have a lot of Eberron knowledge and later sources may have delved this more. Still, yes, their gods are much more aloof and offhands.

But yes, you're right, theses situations do seem to exist only with worlds who may have connections to outer planes, but those outer planes have no connection to other worlds that is documented.... until of course we find out that Eberron opened a link to Toril at one point (where said portal existed on both sides... I dunno.... and I believe it had something to do with Lolth).
Markustay Posted - 03 Nov 2017 : 08:27:21
Notice the worlds/settings without gods are ALWAYS 'closed spheres' (like Athas as well) - why is that? One condition must be the direct result of the other.

And its funny how the filters here at CK don't like it when I accidentally drop the 'o' in the word 'count'.
sleyvas Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 23:57:28
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So to bring this back around (sort of), we were talking about these 'drifting planes' in regards to Eberron (and ostensibly, how to use some of that in FR). Eberron doesn't really have any 'true' Gods (if it does, they're awfully damn aloof). But what if it did at one time? What if each of those orbiting demi-planes is really the realm of a sleeping God? people lost faith in their gods, and now the gods are in a coma, but the Realms endure because of the 'people' (really, petitioners) there.




Eberrons planes would make a good comparison for Abeir's. Its outer planes NOT having gods... it having something like an elemental plane of fire in Fernia, etc... yet these planes have things like demons and devils which would work for not having to include an abyss / hell, etc...
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 23:50:02
I don't see a problem with multiple Astral planes per see, but the concept is totally unnecessary (even in 3e) and adds more complications to the table (as in more rules for spells and planar travels). Not to mention the fact that current lore (4e/5e) treats everything as "in the same place (mortal worlds? All in the same Prime Material, even wayward Eberron; All mortal worlds share the same Astral, Ethereal, elemental planes, Feywild and Shadowfell and Elemental Chaos, etc.). A concept of "multiple Astrals" does contradict that.

There wasn't already a concept of Deep and Border Ethereal? We can have the same with the Astral plane, instead of making things overly complicated with multiple Astral (that means, more rules for Astral stuff). You can even say that there are multiple Border Astrals and every one is separated from the other, if you want isolated pockets in the Astral plane.

You can even take the World Axis concept of the Astral Sea and make "Astral shores" (local sections of the Astral plane in a given mortal world).
sleyvas Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 23:13:06
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt)


I second this. We already have a lot of stuff to work with Realms materials to try to import other D&D materials that might be troublesome.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities.


3.5 and its special ability to make simple stuff complicated because reasons. Is there a necessity for multiple astral planes? I guess I now understand why the developers ended up creating the World Axis in 4e... the cosmology indeed was a mess.



Honestly, I didn't even realize this during the era of 3.5e. However, the more I've delved the concepts of outer planar interactions, the more I've come to realize that while confusing, this system makes it very easy to do something that seems absolutely impossible and still make it work.

For instance, if we take this same concept and apply it to Abeir.... it has its own "astral"/"ethereal". Via its "astral" you might be able to connect to the elemental planes with gates. Then again, its "astral" may have been like the "spirit world" instead, with this spirit world having connections to the elemental chaos.... Then they may have also have had another plane that you could only transfer to in your dreams.... and then these drifting divine realms may have gotten attached to the realm of dreams and used it as an alternate "astral".
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 23:10:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, I don't know why it says that there, in the 3e FR book, when nowhere else in D&D s that the case, in ANY edition. There has always been 'one astral' in this (D&D) universe. There may be other astrals, but they would be in other universe's. Technically, thanks to SJ, D&D is a universe, NOT a multiverse, because you can physically travel to any other point within the D&D Prime Material. On the other hand, if you **** the planes, you may be able to consider it a multiverse, but not in the typical sense (those are just 'layers' within the same universe).



Don't they acknowledge our homebrew worlds and homebrew versions of published worlds as valid worlds compared to the official, published ones?

That would make D&D a multiverse. There is the Material Plane were "official universe" (the published one) is located, and a miriad of Material Planes were our homebrew worlds and our home versions of the Realms and other worlds are located.

But yes, you should focus in the map If you begin with the Old Empires area and publish at least that part, I wouldn't complain.
Markustay Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 21:53:03
Actually, I don't know why it says that there, in the 3e FR book, when nowhere else in D&D s that the case, in ANY edition. There has always been 'one astral' in this (D&D) universe. There may be other astrals, but they would be in other universe's. Technically, thanks to SJ, D&D is a universe, NOT a multiverse, because you can physically travel to any other point within the D&D Prime Material. On the other hand, if you count the planes, you may be able to consider it a multiverse, but not in the typical sense (those are just 'layers' within the same universe).

The D&D universe should be part of BOTH DC and Marvel comics multiverse's (and they are considered part of each other's, but that doesn't really get discussed now that they've stopped doing crossovers). I can prove this with a game of 'Seven degrees of Kevin Bacon', using D&D as Kevin Bacon (the guy has the word 'bacon' in his name... whats not to love?!) The D&Dverse has it own Earth (Gothic Earth... although its probably not so Gothic anymore), so that would be the Earth-designation in DC/Marvel speak (Earth 666? Just to annoy the Catholics again?) Anyhow, my point is that the Main Marvel universe and the prime DC universe (I don't even know what numbers those are anymore) both have their own astrals - they aren't connected to each other via the astral, at all, otherwise Doctor Strange could go universe-hopping whenever he felt like it. Neither are the ethereals, if you still use that. Each has its own Faerie (Feywild) as well. The Shadowfell 'may' be the local (D&Dverse) portion of even greater plane of Shadows, which holds ALL the mutiverse's, but the distances between them would be so vast even Uber-Gods wouldn't bother wasting a few trillion years trying to get to another one (it would be like moving at Light Speed between galaxies).

So anyway, I do tend to ramble (I need to focus on these maps!), but there is only one 'astral' per universe. Now, if you want to say there are 'bubbles' within the astral where portions of it are locked-out of the rest, that's fine. The lore may pretend that's a separate astral if it wants, but it isn't; not really.
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 21:01:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt)


I second this. We already have a lot of stuff to work with Realms materials to try to import other D&D materials that might be troublesome.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities.


3.5 and its special ability to make simple stuff complicated because reasons. Is there a necessity for multiple astral planes? I guess I now understand why the developers ended up creating the World Axis in 4e... the cosmology indeed was a mess.
Markustay Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 20:36:56
So to bring this back around (sort of), we were talking about these 'drifting planes' in regards to Eberron (and ostensibly, how to use some of that in FR). Eberron doesn't really have any 'true' Gods (if it does, they're awfully damn aloof). But what if it did at one time? What if each of those orbiting demi-planes is really the realm of a sleeping God? people lost faith in their gods, and now the gods are in a coma, but the Realms endure because of the 'people' (really, petitioners) there.

And the residual power of the three 'Dragons' (Drækons in my Over-cosmology, which is just a fancy word for the upper echelon of {Prim}Ordials) is what keeps them locked to Eberron, instead of simply drifting away. We wouldn't need to use Eberron's (unless you are still thinking about Eberron being in FR's Astral, but I'm past that) demiplanes to use this bit in The Realms - FR could have its own 'satellite' planes drifting about, or in orbits around the worlds those 'dead gods' were attached to. In other words, although 'dead gods' can be floating anywhere in the astral, it makes the most sense if they are drifting relatively close to the worlds they were connected to (unless its a dead multipheric power, but those have got to be extremely rare).

Mulan Gods & their Realms:
The problem I have with what happened to the Mulan pantheons in 4e is that those gods came from other patheons/worlds, and that means they should NOT have 'died', and their realms should NOT have perished. Only the FR-specific realm some of them may have shared. They'd still have their Main Realms in the Great Wheel cosmology. Of course, if the Babylonian, Sumerian, and Pharonic pantheons are no longer active on Terra (Earth), it could very well be they did disappear with the Spellplague (although I'd like to think not).

EDIT:
The Pharonics definitely didn't die - they are too all-pervasive in so many settings. The same might be said for the Norse pantheon, although we only have one of those... I think. Helm might be Heimdal. I can't think of any settings off the top of my head that use the Sumerian and Babylonian, unless they are also active in GH/Oerth.
Markustay Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 20:23:04
EDIT:
This really all belonged in the cosmology thread - it has almost nothing to do with Toril itself


I always pictured a deity's 'Divine Realm' as being the body of the deity itself. Basically, that IS the deity, so if it dies, it goes away (it actually becomes one of those 'dead gods' floating in the astral). As such, it loses its connections to other planes/cosmologies (the God is no longer around to maintain these 'conduits'). However, since gods never truly die, just go comatose (sometimes for eternity), it is possible to reawaken a god. The funy thing is, Gods don't actually GO anywhere - the astral is where they always are, regardless of what other lore may imply. They ARE their Domain, and they can create an avatar within themselves (if you are familiar with One Piece, like how the character Capone Bege is, who ate the Castle Castle fruit). They can also create avatars to go visit other gods, realms, or mortals, but THAT is never really them. They are their mind - they are pure consciousness, and their Domain is whatever they want it to be. And when they die (go comatose), their realm no longer has direction - a conscious will - to guide it, so it just becomes a blank slate, like a movie screen with nothing being projected onto it.

This is why they are only truly vulnerable in their domain - because its the only time other beings are actually in contact with the god.

This doesn't preclude anything you've said above - realms become 'untethered' when a god's power is failing. It may even be able to keep ts realm somewhat active, it just doesn't have enough power to maintain full-time conduits and Gates (I picture Gates more like immense connections - basically how mortals picture their God's domain being IN a specific plane, but the truth is, thats only an extremely large connection - its not really there. This is why some Godly Realms can be on multiple planes at once (they're really not - the god is just powerful enough to maintain several very large permanent gates).

This also explains why some deities bother with an afterlife, and others don't (their followers simply go to the plane closest to them in alignment). If a God loses all his earthly (Prime Material) followers, he still has his local 'fanbase' to keep him active, even if he doesn't have enough power to keep his Gates (and conduits, which are more like 'cosmic hallways') open. His realm persists, 'adrift' (and as I said, that's just how mortals perceive it - those Realms - the Gods themselves - are really ALWAYS adrift). Gods who don't bother with an afterlife (which also cost 'power' to maintain) don't have that back-up contingency, hence gods like Moandor, who go completely dormant until some new idiot learns about them an d sarts the process all over again.

Now, in the case of Kiaransalee, thats an interesting problem. If her petitioners were in her realm, they should have been able to at least maintain it, even it was 'set adrift', but if her petitioners forgot about her, what then? Also, The Dead do slowly lose their memories over time, so that means a god who has lost their mortal following but still has their divine realm (afterlife) will only have so long before they become completely comatose themselves (and the petitioners simply dissolve into the 'planestuff' of the dead god). I figure a few centuries, at most, depending on how big a realm the god had maintained before. This may be why some gods desperately appeal to other gods and become their subordinates (or get subsumed by them).

Because Gods can share realms as well, and pool their resources. This is how the pantheons work. They can maintain VERY large domains because they are pooling all their power (and still maintaining individual 'residences' within, which is really just a 'bubble' where they keep their separate consciousness, so they don't wind up getting absorbed into a pantheonic Overmind (this probably happens with a lot of the lesser deities in pantheons like the Greek). Those 'D list' gods become like exarchs (proxies) of the Domain itself. thus, with all the Gods putting energy into a Pantheon pool' to power the Domain, the Domain itself becomes almost like an artificial God (and that's how pantheists work, within the D&D mechanics). The Pantheon Domain (Asgard, Mt. Olympus, etc) becomes this artificial Unimind that answers prayers (it can't really interact with mortals though, just act as a two-way conduit for the gods). However, I can see some truly ancient godly Realms gaining a sentience of their own, because of how long they've been around - the Realms of the dead in FR may be like that. In fact, most realms of the dead may have their own, low-level awareness.

This also helps explain (somewhat) how duel-aspected, tripartite, or other multi-deities function. Two or three (or more) pieces of 'godly awareness' utilize the Domain itself to form an avatar for their combined selves. Such things are only possible within pantheons, becomes of the unimind structure which governs the domain. Also, most pantheons with their own pantheon-domain are multisperic... I'd go so far as to say ALL of them are. Note that in world-specific pantheons (like Faerûn's), the gods maintain SEPARATE Realms, for the most part. the small 'god clusters' they do work and live together are almost always like-minded, and have very similar goals, so no true pantheons there (which need to run the full gamut of the human condition and natural forces). I use a term I stole from Kurt Vonnegutt to describe those false, mini-pantheons: A Karass. They can never have any true power or sentience because they are not balanced.
sleyvas Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 17:05:59
nah, the whole thing of varying levels of magic makes mixing these worlds problematic. The idea of all of these various worlds being coterminous to the FR crystal sphere though does work, since these appear to be "closed spheres".

In fact, it may be that these other worlds can't access the "shell" of the crystal sphere to get to the phlogiston. They each might have wildspace and maybe spelljammers work within their "phase" of the crystal sphere, but the "phlogiston" is only reachable from realmspace. Of course, that doesn't mean that these other places can't reach OTHER planes (for instance, Eberron may be able to access some of the same outer planes as Toril can). It would mean also that these worlds do occasionally "bump" into one another. This could explain gods transferring as well, because we know from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities. These Astral Planes are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. The Astral Plane known to characters in Faerûn leads to the planes of the Faerûnian pantheon, as well as the nonhuman pantheons (whose geographical area of control overlaps that of the Faerûnian deities) and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Characters in other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by their own deities. Ao is thought to supervise the separate Astral Planes just as he adjudicates conflicts between the pantheons.

and especially this from the same source

ZAKHARAN PLANES
The Astral Plane of Zakhara connects to the same elemental planes that connect with Faerûn, as well as to a plane where the souls of the righteous are rewarded (the Garden of Delight) and one where the wicked are punished (the Place of Fire). The many genies that are so active in Zakhara live on the elemental planes, while the deities of the Zakharan faiths live either on the Material Plane in Zakhara itself or on some other plane unknown to mortals and unreachable from the Material Plane.

and this concerning LOST divine domains

LOST PLANES
When deities or entire pantheons die, the planes they called home apparently cease to exist. One theory holds that they simply implode without any divine power to sustain them . Another theory maintains that the Astral Plane expels them, and they drift somehow outside it, severed from their connections to other planes.

The largest of these lost planes is Zigguraxus, former home of the Untheric pantheon. With its demise or disappearance, Tiamat has relocated to Dragon Eyrie. The planes and realms of the dead gods have also vanished from Toril’s cosmology. These include Amaunator’s Keep of the Eternal Sun, Bhaal’s Throne of Blood, Ibrandul’s Ibrandyllaran, Leira’s Courts of Illusion, and Moander’s Offalmound.

Occasionally a slain deity’s realm is taken over by another deity before it can vanish. This was the case with Myrkul’s Bone Castle on the Fugue Plane, which is now inhabited by Kelemvor, who transformed it into the Crystal Spire.


So, part of what I've posited is that there are two theories listed above. The popular theory on Toril for dweomerheart was the first one.... that it imploded. However, we don't have like someone with a snapshot of the divine realm exploding. We have hearsay and conjecture, because there is no way that I can think of that anyone on Toril can validate this. So, I choose to believe the second... it became unattached to the Faerunian Pantheon's astral plane... and it and several of these "loose" divine realms specifically mentioned became attached to Abeir instead of Toril. I'm currently working that idea with something from last week that badcatman mentioned with the beacon of light artifact calling Ptah and then working in Anubis as another deity with "connections" to Ptah. If anyone can reattach divine realms, I'd say its those two working together. I actually may end up doing some research on a lot of Faerunian divine artifacts and end up destroying them to bring back dead gods or possibly awaken primordials (beacon of light, blood of Lathander, Karse Stone (technically the stone body of a dead god... that bleeds), we've been talking about bloodforges, etc....).


Markustay Posted - 02 Nov 2017 : 07:16:42
Well, I realized that, and then I switched my train-of-thought toward the end there.

If we use a Hollow Earth Model, you can see there it says the crust is about 800 miles thick (I've seen some as little as 400, and others as high as 1200 miles, and if that was actually to it's own scale, that looks to be 2000). Regardless, even if its as little as 400 miles (which is way too thin), thats still plenty of room for Drow, Illithids, Aboleths, The Devil, Morlocks, Superman's Molemen, The FF's Molemen, Godzilla, etc, etc... just in the crust. Plenty of room for Khyber as well.

Then Abeir would be the inside of the sphere; the center atmosphere would be filled with the silvery stuff (the atomized primordial), and the folks wouldn't be able to see the center sun, or even tell they are in a Hollow World.

It would work. Funky as hell, but its do-able.

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt), and do the same thing, but instead put Abeir inside Toril. Thus, the same primordials are 'buried' from both points of view. And Mystra's Weave can't penetrate the gravity well at the center of the crust (The Shadoweave might be able to, depending on which of a hundred definitions we are using). Guys like the Elemental Lords are able to go back and forth (through the 'holes in the poles'), otherwise the deities have to stay topside, and the primordials have to stay below. I'm sure certain dragons would know as well, but the ones ruling the Underworld (Abeir) would be fine staying where they are.

Also, Ibrandul probably knew the truth, and even knew a few 'secret ways' to go back & forth, which could be why Shar ate him.

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