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 What if the Abeir / Toril "out of synch" is TIME

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
sleyvas Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 13:47:06
Something just occurred to me, and I want to throw it down here before heading to work.What if its that they exist at different moments in time. For those

What if the Abeir and Toril thing is that they're are indeed out of phase, but its not the "out of phase" like we're used to reading where people like walk through rock as if it doesn't exist. If you are familiar with networking, I'm thinking of it like time division multiplexing... kind of like frame relay. Basically, lets say that if a minute were sliced up into 60 seconds. Toril gets say 59 of those seconds. Abeir gets 1. For 59 seconds, within realmspace, we have Toril. Then for just a second, we have Abeir. The people themselves don't see this changeover and they just see continuity of data, and maybe it affects everything in that crystal sphere at that moment. So, a spelljamming ship wouldn't see a difference. But maybe someone on the sun would see it happening. Maybe someone on the moon would see it happening too... except that Leira's illusion is going both ways.

The implications here would be that if someone or something on the moon or sun could effectively "leave" their protected space on the cusp of a timeslice somehow they could travel between Abeir and Toril. The other implication could be that time in Abeir and Toril travel at different speeds. It would also imply that basically the realmspace crystal sphere's connection to the demiplane of time was basically time-sliced somehow (damn elves). This would really screw with some of the concepts I've been delving, and there may be something in canon that specifically says that the people in Abeir have definitely seen a century pass.... but I figured it would be worth exploring for a few minutes.


From the 4e FR Player's Guide:

At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selūne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selūne.

Toril is the body that folk refer to as “the world.” In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet’s primary and “central” continent is Faerūn. To the north of Faerūn is the arctic north, home to the polar icecap. To the west of Faerūn is the Trackless Sea, and beyond that horizon lies Returned Abeir, which completely replaced a land known as Maztica. To the south of Faerūn is the Great Sea. To the east of Faerūn are the Hordelands. Other continents exist as well, but the folk of Faerūn and Returned Abeir know little about those far-off lands.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Zeromaru X Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:54:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".


I remember Elminster says something like this in a text blocks in the 3e Campaign Setting. Its about why the good and mighty of Faerūn don't kill the bad guys. Short answer: Elminster admit that they can't. So, they do only "minor stuff" to no upset the status quo.

And at this point I'm really believing that there is a spell or some magic at work to maintain the status quo in the Realms... even the Spellplague is considered "a plague of change".
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:35:51
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.


I'd not include the Dark Three, Cyric, or Midnight on that list. In all of those cases, they were stepping into the place of and assuming all of the responsibilities of a previous deity -- which included an established church. It was like being a new CEO at an existing company. Finder, Velsharoon, and Malyk were all new CEOs without companies.

Karsus is an odd case because he assumed the position of a prior deity, but didn't hold onto it for long enough to matter... He basically ran in to the existing company, shoved the CEO out of her seat, sat down, and then the deposed CEO popped back up and threw him out the window.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:31:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And yet, guys like Szass Tam, Manshoon, etc, etc... walk around with Nary a care. Heck, some of the 'good guys' even buddy-around with the likes of Halaster, Larloch, and Semmenon.

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".

Elitism at its finest. There are no 'good guys' in the Realms - you just get to pick your favorite flavor of evil, is all. I actually read something last night (accidentally, in a 4e source, while looking for something completely unrelated) - guess what? The Good Guys went to Abeir. THAT isn't 'the prison planet', Toril is.



The issue was that one of the good guys caused the death of one of his apprentices -- so he was punished by his fellow good guys.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 19:55:39
The "gray" is always interesting (though the fantasy nut in me does love the good ol' good vs evil story trope LOL). I also enjoy a good "gray" story (though not fifty shades of it .

It's like Shrek said: ogres are like onions--many layers.
Markustay Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 19:38:29
I know you weren't - I just love playing 'devils Advocate'.

I HATE the idea of 'White hat' good, and 'Black Hat' bad. Ed never meant the Realms to be B&W, and I try to convey that to people as much as possible.

And I don't REALLY think Corellon is evil (or Asmodeus LOL) - I just like to throw possibilities out there. It keeps the players guessing.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 19:01:48
Oh, I wasn't trying to justify anyone's actions, I was just refreshing people's memories (including my own) of what happened.
Markustay Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 18:57:23
And yet, guys like Szass Tam, Manshoon, etc, etc... walk around with Nary a care. Heck, some of the 'good guys' even buddy-around with the likes of Halaster, Larloch, and Semmenon.

Sounds more like a case of, "Lets punish the ones we can, not the ones that actually deserve it".

Elitism at its finest. There are no 'good guys' in the Realms - you just get to pick your favorite flavor of evil, is all. I actually read something last night (accidentally, in a 4e source, while looking for something completely unrelated) - guess what? The Good Guys went to Abeir. THAT isn't 'the prison planet', Toril is.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 18:04:54
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

[quote]

He was punished by the Harpers? REALLY? By guys like Khelben and Elminster, for having an inflated ego? A group that basically thinks its THEIR JOB to tell everyone else how to live their lives? I had forgotten about that. Pretty dumb.

Just goes to prove that in The Realms, the 'good guys' aren't really the good guys at all. They are just another power group with their own agenda. Everything is circumstantial.



If I remember correctly, Finder didn't like that his songs were being tweaked, even though they inspired others. It wasn't the level of perfection that Finder strove for (in his mind), so he created the Finder's Stone to preserve his songs. It didn't give him quite the results he wanted, so he then created a clone--Flattery--but didn't like how Flattery turned out. Flattery eventually lashed out, and one of Finder's apprentices died trying to defend his master. For his transgressions and dangerous pursuits, the Harpers imprisoned him.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 17:59:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.



Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.

Now, once someone becomes a god they either find a source of faith energy or "burn out" the energy and possibly become dead. I'm guessing becoming a deity is a two-edged blade in many ways (need faith energy to stay a god, but get too many followers and they can change you... makes you realize why the elemental lords are cold). Of course, we also have it that you can "take off" your divinity as well, since Finder does so in order to enter whatever the damn name of that city is with the Lady of Pain.



Sigil?
Markustay Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 16:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.
There are other examples of similar events in FR/D&D...

What I think happens here is that you get that initial 'surge' of divinity - whatever the other Power has. But you aren't getting any 'new' worship-power (Elan) from his following, nor his portfolios if you didn't seize those either. Its related to what happened when Baal killed all his assassins during the ToT - he got a HUGE boost... and then NOTHING. Pretty damn stupid, IMO.

This is why most would-be gods (or already-established gods trying to 'grow bigger') grabbed the other guy's portfolios; in fact, unless you are diametrically opposed to them on some moralistic basis, its stupid not to... even just in the short-term. Of course, post-ToT, the portfolios mattered less than the faithful.

But when you do this - just grab the POWER but none of the 'perks', you tend to blow through it rather quickly (as did the Dark Three when Baal killed his assassins). It was through his own body of works (and Olive Ruskettle's 'pimpage') that he was able to maintain his tenuous hold on godhood. Had he not done that - try to establish himself on his own merits - he would have soon fallen into obscurity and would have been forgotten once again... and withered and become a comatose deity in the Astral, like all the rest. Of that, I am sure.

So I guess what I was trying to say (in an overly-complicated way LOL) is that these 'boosts' are only temporary, and if you don't use it, you lose it. And by that, I don't simply mean 'expend the power' (as did the 'Stupid Three'). More like 'invest it'. In fact, EXACTLY like that. Picture Finder being some dude in the RW who just won the lottery. He could just blow through his windfall and eventually have nothing (as most do), or he could invest it wisely and be able to 'bank on it' the rest of his life. Its just like that. He took his 'short term' divinity and leveraged it into his own religion, which was smart.

He was punished by the Harpers? REALLY? By guys like Khelben and Elminster, for having an inflated ego? A group that basically thinks its THEIR JOB to tell everyone else how to live their lives? I had forgotten about that. Pretty dumb.

Just goes to prove that in The Realms, the 'good guys' aren't really the good guys at all. They are just another power group with their own agenda. Everything is circumstantial.
sleyvas Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 15:49:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.


Just noting... wonder if Lolth "repurposed" the divine domain that was Moander's Offalmound to make it into the separate demonweb pits that's not in the abyss. Maybe she let Ghaunadaur and Moander take over the demonweb pits in the Abyss. Obviously, there could still be linkages between the two (as in some kind of portal) that most people don't even realize they're traversing because of how its used or something.

Lolth: Hey, Moander, I know you'll come back, so I moved all your sh*t out of your house and shoved it over there by all the slime that Ghaunadaur is wallowing in. I kinda figured you two would get along real fine. Oh, and I changed the locks.
sleyvas Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 15:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.



Oh, gotcha. I wasn't thinking about what was being said prior (which I don't subscribe to). As another example, Velsharoon and Malyk both became deities without followers initially. Same with Karsus. Same with Midnight, Cyric, and the Dark Three. There is something to becoming a deity that can be done by sheer taking or receiving of power.

Now, once someone becomes a god they either find a source of faith energy or "burn out" the energy and possibly become dead. I'm guessing becoming a deity is a two-edged blade in many ways (need faith energy to stay a god, but get too many followers and they can change you... makes you realize why the elemental lords are cold). Of course, we also have it that you can "take off" your divinity as well, since Finder does so in order to enter whatever the damn name of that city is with the Lady of Pain.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 03:56:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.



He became a deity without having any followers.

He was a mortal -- an exceptionally talented one, and one that Tymora was assisting, but still a mortal. And then he killed Moander and took his divinity. He didn't take Moander's realm, nor did he assume Moander's identity (which Lolth later took) -- all he took was Moander's divinity and portfolios, which he immediately shifted to something more suitable to himself.

So he was a deity who existed as a deity before having any followers.

Up until the year before, he was literally nameless and exiled to a Harper prison, and almost all knowledge of him had been expunged from the Realms -- only Flattery and some Master Harpers knew of him or his works.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 03:34:48
Oh, and about Finder. If I remember correctly from the novels (I have them, but I don't want to go through them trying to find the info I need right now lol), he was banished by the Harpers, and was known as the nameless bard. Then, he is given a second chance, and kills Moander, taking his divine spark.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 00:29:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

See, thats part of the problem. Well, depending on what definition of 'god' we are going with. I don't think 'Gods' are the most powerful beings. We KNOW Ao is above them, and we KNOW there is 'something' above Ao (HIS 'Boss'). However, if we just use my definition f 'god', then its a catch-all that includes all of those levels of beings


I was using gods/deities as an all-encompassing term, too. I suppose I could use powers instead, but that gets confusing when we're talking about the gods and their powers (as in abilities, magic, etc). And yes, it is "tiered". You have your demigods at the bottom, and then overgods like Ao higher up--and then his "boss" above him.

Some of course are ascended mortals, like Shevarash, Cyric, Kelemvor (the latter two obtained greater god status fairly quickly). But other deities existed before their mortal followers, because, if one thinks about it, creation and destruction are "founding principles", so to speak, that govern the universe. This gives entities (whether they are cosmic beings on the level of Ao's "boos", overgods like Ao, or greater gods like Corellon or Moradin). Because of these "creation principles", it seems logical to me that they could exist before their followers, and thus create them. It's that whole "create life" thing.

quote:
But even if he got nothing from it, he still wouldn't be dead DEAD. Gods don't 'die'. Then again, neither do mortals, really. Mortals just go somewhere else, and gods go into this comatose state in the astral (which is why I ascertain Finder had to have been getting some power still). The only permanent death that we know of (and we don't know if it would work on gods) is going into the River Styx. It literally erases all traces of you.

Some of my RW beliefs play into this - a 'spirit' (soul) never fades away completely, until the very last person has forgotten about them. I think in the case of those 'ghost legends', what happens is that the legends themselves wind up 'anchoring' the spirit in-place, so it gets 'stuck'. Just like gods (and in Asian philosophy, 'gods' are spirits - just greater ones), they depend on the thoughts of other to stick around. Isn't there a TV series out right now that plays to this theme? (American Gods)




This is true about Asian cultures. I took an interest in Shintoism (I like Japanese culture), so I studied it some. I am by no means an expert on it, but kami, often translated as god, are spirits and gods. You have your nature kami (really, kami are everywhere). There are greater kami, which are more on a "godly" level, like Amaterasu, who, for all intents and purposes, is a deity (of the sun, to be exact).
Markustay Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 00:26:02
I think he had some sort of quasi-deity status before that, but I may be wrong. I recall him getting 'full godhood' from Moander (which is weird, because didn't Moander come back as well?

Thats the problem with gods like him, and Ghaunadaur, etc... you leave a piece of stinky cheese out, or maybe some moldy bread on a garbage heap, and the next thing you know *POOF* they're back!

"Wait... what? Did you order the Blue Cheese dressing on your salad? WITH MUSHROOMS!? Dear god! Someone call a priest! We need an exorcism!"
sleyvas Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 00:17:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?



??? He helped kill Moander and became a god by taking his portfolios? Not sure I'm following the question.
sleyvas Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 00:12:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".



Some are just honest about it, like Leira, and they're treated bad for doing so. Go figure.
Markustay Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 23:47:40
See, thats part of the problem. Well, depending on what definition of 'god' we are going with. I don't think 'gods' are the most powerful beings. We KNOW Ao is above them, and we KNOW there is 'something' above Ao (HIS 'Boss'). However, if we just use my definition of 'God', then its a catch-all that includes all of those levels of beings (in other words, if something appears in front of a bunch of people, and can do stuff beyond the abilities of any other mortal around, people would refer to that as 'a God'). Humans may have thought Elves were gods at some point (come to think of it, wouldn't it be a kick in the head if it was HUMANS that caused the Seldarine to ascend?).

In OD&D, in the world of Mystara, they didn't even call them 'gods' - they called them Immortals. Most of them suspect there is a 'layer' of beings above them. One spent a lot of time trying to find out... and went missing. No-one knows if he 'ascended further', or something bad happened to him because he was asking too many questions. Nice and simple - the designers don't have to answer too many questions that way.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?
Didn't he achieve demigodhood status while he was still known? I don't really remember all the details - I only have one of the books right now - I should try rereading it (I hate when I don't have the whole set, though).

From what I remember, he became a demigod because of his body of work (the 'adulation' thing), but because he wouldn't let anyone modify his work, something happened (the gods cursed him? I forget?) and everyone forgot who he was. Ostensibly, that should have destroyed him (the same trick seems to have worked on Kiaransalee). I recall my thoughts at the time were along the lines of "his body of work was still receiving acknowledgment, and thus, even though they managed to wipe his name from it, there was still a 'trickle' he was getting from that, sustaining him at a very weak state.

But even if he got nothing from it, he still wouldn't be dead DEAD. Gods don't 'die'. Then again, neither do mortals, really. Mortals just go somewhere else, and gods go into this comatose state in the astral (which is why I ascertain Finder had to have been getting some power still). The only permanent death that we know of (and we don't know if it would work on gods) is going into the River Styx. It literally erases all traces of you.

Some of my RW beliefs play into this - a 'spirit' (soul) never fades away completely, until the very last person has forgotten about them. I think in the case of those 'ghost legends', what happens is that the legends themselves wind up 'anchoring' the spirit in-place, so it gets 'stuck'. Just like gods (and in Asian philosophy, 'gods' are spirits - just greater ones), they depend on the thoughts of other to stick around. Isn't there a TV series out right now that plays to this theme? (American Gods)

So, basically, even though no-one remembered Finder himself, they remembered 'his stuff', and that was enough... just barely. Thus, it is true an unworshiped god can 'get by', at a near-mortal (DvR 0, Quasi-deity) state, if he has some 'worldly attachment' to something he's left behind (maybe thats why Vecna leaves his hand and eye lying around).
CorellonsDevout Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 23:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them.

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.


Mind, I came from 4e, not before, so:

1. I'm accustomed for "deities are useful" and are involved in world affairs.
2. The Nentir Vale gods don't interact with mortals, just manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and that stuff. So, for me deities interacting actively with mortals was a unique (and attractive) feature of the Realms.

So, from my point of view, making the gods of the Realms behave like the gods of the Nentir Vale is killing a unique aspect of the Realms.

Notice, that I also respect that is what Ed wanted for the Realms, so I have come to terms with it (it took me a few months, though... I was like Dazzler before); but doesn't mean that I like that approach.



The gods have long been active in the Realms, even before 4e. I agree they add a unique flavor, and have been one of my favorite aspects of the setting. However, I am willing to have them interact more indirectly, especially because that was Ed's intention. I just don't want them to become so far removed that they might as well not be there. I still want them to be active, even if the way they are active changes.
Zeromaru X Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 22:28:36
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them.

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.


Mind, I came from 4e, not before, so:

1. I'm accustomed for "deities are useful" and are involved in world affairs.
2. The Nentir Vale gods don't interact with mortals, just manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and that stuff. So, for me deities interacting actively with mortals was a unique (and attractive) feature of the Realms.

So, from my point of view, making the gods of the Realms behave like the gods of the Nentir Vale is killing a unique aspect of the Realms.

Notice, that I also respect that is what Ed wanted for the Realms, so I have come to terms with it (it took me a few months, though... I was like Dazzler before); but doesn't mean that I like that approach.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

However... when it comes to the cosmology we have to work some stuff out. Like, for example, Banehold is an actual place you can go to and visit. Is it possible to bump into Bane there? If not, then what does it look like? What does someone visiting this plane find and see?


This is why I like better the 4e approach than the 2e one you guys want to take. Is direct, is reliable, and doesn't contradict itself with every other lore written about the same topic.

How are the gods described in 4e:
"Deities are the most powerful immortal creatures, residents of the countless dominions that swirl through the Astral Sea. They appear in dreams and visions to their followers and wear countless different faces, and artwork depicting them shows them in a variety of forms. Their true nature is beyond any physical form. Corellon is often depicted as an eladrin, but he is no more an eladrin than he is a fey panther—he is a god, and he transcends the physical laws that bind even angels to their concrete forms."

4e PHB, p.20 (mind, this is about Nentir Vale gods, but the concepts apply to the Realms gods as well).
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 21:46:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".




So how do you explain Finder Wyvernspur?
Markustay Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 21:35:59
I don't. I don't think any gods existed before their followers - I don't think thats possible (no matter what the lore says). I know if I suddenly became a god tomorrow, I'd go around telling everyone that I created everything, including them. It doesn't make it true. I think Ed once put it best. "Gods lie most of all".

I could easily fix it, though. The first of a pantheon (the one who is usually accredited for creating his/her 'race') is created by something else (it wouldn't be 'spontaneous' because thats just the universe responding to a need, and no-one needs a god of a race that doesn't exist yet), and then the rest of the pantheon happens naturally, as the race matures. ONE gods creates them (which is how it is - or a couple - in nearly every mythos), and the rest of the gods 'just happen'. Only deities need their worshipers, because that is their purpose. Every other 'cosmic entity' doesn't need faithful - they can exist without them. Just say Corellon isn't a 'deity', is all. And that's how I would resolve that, if I were so inclined...

But I'm not. I already have my Fey Mythology, and Elven mythology is just a branch off of that. Corellon is just the 'bad son' who rebelled against 'the Heavens' (Faerie), and was 'cast out' (he left and founded Tintageer). El-Adrin = "wayward offspring". The Fallen. Most chose to stay behind with Oberron and Titania - El-Ves = "Loyal Children".

Lets see, somewhat androgynous, has pointy ears, has it in for humans (mortals), and in some myths elves have 'tails' (Huldrafolk). Am I missing anything? What are his 'Boots of Elvenkind' hiding, hmmmm? Cloven hooves? And he probably has a fake 'evil Spock' goatee he wears when he's at home, in Hell...

I think we all know who Corellon REALLY is.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 20:36:45
How do you explain deities existing before their followers (particularly racial deities), then? This is why I say they can exist before their followers/without worship, but once they have created a race/followers, they have to take some form of responsibility, and become more dependent on their followers. This helps bridge the gap between gods needing followers, and gods existing prior to their followers.
Markustay Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 20:24:44
See, I go the other way with everything (mostly because my theories aren't just based on D&D lore, they're based on ALL established lore in folklore, mythology, and scify/Fantasy works) - that deities NEED mortals to survive. Thats the 'default setting' for the Universe. Just because most other Crystal Spheres don't point that out (and why would gods want that known?), doesn't mean its not how it works. In just about everything I've ever read, gods slip into some form of coma/death when they lose all their followers. However, Crystal Spheres are like very complex computer programs... even 'suites' of programs, and the Spheric Guardians can merely 'flip a switch' to turn various options on & off. A lazy Overower might just leave everything at the 'default' setting (the bum running Greyhawk does this LOL). You can even 'download' your own 'skins' for your interface (cosmology) to customize it - I hear 'The Tree' one is very popular.

So (I believe) Abeir-Toril had the 'default' settings where the gods were concerned at the beginning. Deities (note I am not using 'gods' - see below) depended upon their followers for power. This is very important to 'The Balance', which is why most Overpowers don't play with this setting. But after the WoL&D and Ao was forced to separate the Estelar from the Primordials, he changed the settings so that 'fighting over followers' would no longer be an issue (because after separating the worlds, some Gods were going to have an unfair advantage over others). Without checking the warnings in the manual, he set it for 'God power based on portfolios held', and thought that would be it. Little did he know it would eventually lead to deities just ignoring their followers, and instead concentrating on grabbing as many portfolios as they could from other gods. For a dude in charge of Gods, he isn't a very good judge of their characters. Mystryl benefited the most by this mistake - she gained power from EVERYTHING related to magic... on a High-Magic world... where there were even lots of gods and priesthoods throwing around magic (so she basically got her 'cut' {tithe} if every other god's power).

Shar: "Sister dear, I know you're the head cheerleader and everyone loves you, but aren't you being a bit unfair?"
Mystryl: "Shut the hell up you little emo-Goth turd! I AM THE TYRANT OF MAGIC! I will rule this Sphere! Its all mine I tell you! MINE!!! Now go crawl back into your dark little hole under the stairs, you ugly little wretch!"
Shar: {whimper}

Mystryl was so greedy, she even took the restraints of the power (spell) level off mortal magic, just so she could get more 'Juice'. And then it happened - Karsus did his thing (mostly because Shar steered his research... she's such a kind and goodly thing), her 'magical cartel' (The Weave) collapsed, she 'died', and magic went bye-bye. Ao grabs whats left of The Weave (being propped-up by her proxies and Chosen), and 'glues' the sentience of a special girl (thats canon, BTW) to it, and creates Mystra. He then sits her down and explains to her that she shouldn't allow mortals to go past the 'default' spell level of '9' (you'd think he'd follow his own advise about playing with the settings), and if she does that again (she's a little confused by this) he'd put her over his knee and spank her. Not the normal way an Overpower punishes a god, but it seems to work wonders for Sune (or so he claims) He's also used it quite a few times on Sharess... which is probably why Shar has 'Daddy issues'.

*AHEM*

Anyhow, it all seems to be working fine again, except he stupidly left his own setting-error in-place, where dieties continue to get power from their portfolios. He also told Shar to 'keep an eye on' Mystra and her Weave, and gives her a back-door password. She knew she'd make good use of THAT. Time goes by, and all sorts of things happen, like the 'Dark Three' gang jumping poor Jergal, and Shar 'ate' her imaginary friend, Ibrandul (some folks think Shar herself is Selūne's imaginary friend). All sorts of interlopers beating-down other interlopers (Orcgate wars), etc., etc., until finally those same hooligans - 'the Dark Three' rob Ao's crib and steal all his mixed tapes... and Tablets of Fate (I'm pretty sure he was actually more mad about those mixed tapes - you just can't find good cassette recordings anymore).

So he puts them ALL - even ones not even remotely involved - in 'Time Out' (the ToT). Except for Helm, because he was always "daddy's favorite" (actually, he was a kiss-arse who always ratted the others out). Eventually he gets his stupid tablets back (he never did find the mixed-tapes), and punishes the culprits. He also accidentally managed to kill a few other gods (and millions of mortals) by doing all this, including Mystra. He grabs some girl standing on the rooftop (she probably reminded him of Shar) and said, "Hey you! You should have minded your own business! Now I'm going to punish you by making you the goddess of magic!" (it never ends well for them). He also finally remembers to reset the 'Godly Powers' to default, so from then-on, instead of killing each other, they'd go back to the normal way of divinely doing things - having their followers kill each other.

So thats how I believe things went down (more or less ), and that Ao didn't change 'the rules' after the Tot, he just changed them back to how they should have been. Gods became dependent upon their worshipers again.

*When I write, and I say 'Gods', I mean everything above the mortal power-tier, which would include, but not be limited to, Estelar, Primordials, Primal Spirits, Archfey, archfiends, Arch-everything else, Beast Lords, 'Cosmic Powers', etc., etc. - just about anything that could show up and mortals would say, "Oh, s***". If I write 'gods' (rarely, with small 'g'), I mean deities - those beings that mortals call gods, which are really just ascended mortals who have gotten a hold of a 'deific template' - this all falls under another set of rules/theories I have, which now helps explain primordials as well ('spontaneous gods'). Its basically a 'loophole' in the universe's code, that some mortals have learned how to exploit (although the first few cases were probably all 'accidents').

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Here is as I understand it.

Supreme Overpower appears (Master, Luminous Being, whatever), created multiverse.

Minor Overpowers appear (Ao, Lady of Pain, the Serpent, the World Serpent, etc.), set about to order this multiverse.

Concepts appear (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Neutrality). Begin to fight because reasons. Create agents for this war, such as Obyriths, and those.

Gods and primordials appears. They create mortal worlds and the first mortals.

Dawn War, multiverse in chaos. Some primordials join the gods. Multiverse is saved.

Individual histories of each sphere.

Beyond the creation of the world, I really doubt mortals need to know more. The Luminous Being exist, yeah. Do mortals know about it? I dunno. They barely know about Ao and the gods.

They need to know about this? I don't think so.
I would make only one change - that EVERYTHING is technically a 'God' (capital 'G'). When you say 'Gods and Primordials', you really mean 'Estelar & Primordials' (which should both be 'Gods', and helps fix a lot of old lore retroactively).

When we say 'gods' (small 'g'), we usually mean deities - those ascended mortals (some of which may have ascended during the days of Thunder, so age isn't part of the equation, just 'source') who are actually one of the lowest echelons of 'The Gods'. I might make allowances for some rare few who have 'proven their worth' to have graduated to hire tiers in the Cosmic Pyramid. For example, in Lovecraft's writings, Cthulhu wasn't even 'a God' - he was a 'high priest' of the elder Gods. In D&D terms, that means he should be 'of this universe (something deeply corrupted - a Batrachi?), and he just worships things from the Far Realms (like Hastur, who is called "He who should not be named", sort of like 'The Dark God'. eh?) So if anyone would qualify as a 'mortal (Creator-race) made good' (Elder Evil), it would be him. He is not the same being i call 'Cthon' - Cthon is more of a concept than a rational entity. How can 'Chaos Incarnate' have a rational thought? Thats why it has minions, like Tharizdun.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 19:05:24
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.


The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.


There are notes about it throughout Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons. It does not refer to a single isolated event, but rather a series of events that took place over a period of time. The general consensus in the lore is that it began after the fall of Netheril, and resulted in the death or alteration of numerous deities.

The in canon explanation for things is that Lathander was attempting to re-shape the pantheon in his image. Basically, if you look at the other pantheons (Elven, Multhorandi, Dwarven, Orcish, etc.) you will see that these pantheons have a 'leader'. It is implied that Lathander was trying to become that deity for the Faerunian Pantheon and that he, in particular, wanted to get rid of all of the evil deities.

Obviously, he failed. We ended up with the pantheon that we see in canon.

If you take a close reading of the lore, you can basically see what happened. There was a period of large human migration and cultural intermixing. This started to cause the pantheons of many different human ethnic groups to begin intermixing. Just as the Netherese once had their own pantheon of deities, and the Mulhorandi and the Untheric people had their pantheons--the same was true for other Faerunian human ethnic groups as well. There was the Calishite pantheon, the Talfric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, etc. We have the names of some of their deities that did not make it, or began to be absorbed by deities of other pantheons.

This was something like a Time of Troubles style event that played out over the course of decades and centuries. It's not something that happened all at once. And, honestly, Lathander probably gets blamed for it unjustly. It had more to do with Ao's rule that no deity greater than demi-god could hold the same portfolio in the same pantheon. Thus, the conflict was inevitable as the pantheons began merging.

We were starting to see the beginnings of this type of conflict in the Old Empires, after the fall of Unther, between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon. There were already opening salvo's happening in the battle for Unther between the various cults.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.


Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki

quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki

The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.

---

Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.


So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).


I support all of that. It is not important to running the Realms, but it is important to know from a lore and design perspective. It matters less on Toril, but it becomes more important as we discuss the cosmology and the multiverse.

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them. The deities are real, they exist, they manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and various types of manifestations (a rosy glow over an altar for Lathander, as an example). They do not talk directly to mortals, 'This is where I want you to go, and what I want you to do...' They do not run around in avatar form and chill out with mortals...

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.



I'm catching up with this thread lol. It gets away from me so fast XD.

I've expressed before that I like the involvement of the gods, but I fully realize I am in the minority, and I agree that there comes a point when direct interaction becomes overblown. I'm willing to compromise. And, since Ed's original intention for the gods was to have the deities interact more indirectly (Lathander's rosy glow), I have to acknowledge and respect that. As long as their existence is acknowledged, and it isn't regulated to purely "faith" (as in we don't know for sure), I can live with it lol.

Even if the gods are "quieter", I still wish 5E would come out with a "god book", something like F&A and DD, for example. Those books are great for lore and understanding deities, IMO. One of the reasons I like cosmology and understanding the gods (well, as much as a mortal can, anyway) is because it helps make the world richer, and is part of the world-building. Plus, it allows for fun discussions like this one that get away from you.

Aldrick Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 18:59:14
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.


Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?

Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.

I always though this was some rule of Ao.


There are deities (like Corellon) who existed before their followers, so they don't need mortal worshipers to have power. However, perhaps one of the "rules" for creating a race is that, once you do, you have to have followers. In a way, it's the deity's responsibility to make sure their creations follow them once they make them. It's like parenting. All right, you had this child, now you have to take care of it LOL.

Also, perhaps having mortal faith further stimulates the deity's powers. So, while not a necessity (at least until the ToT), followers give deities that extra boost.


LOL @ the parenting analogy. Gruumsh is such an abusive father.

I am thinking of things in a similar light. Basically, mortal worship is required for ascension to divinity as we understand it today. However, there is a proto-state that some deities, like Corellon, existed in prior to ascension. In the same way that someone can be a mortal that ascends to divinity, someone can also be an Estelar and ascend to divinity. In their proto-state, the pre-ascension state of the Estelar, they are on par with the primordials.

Ascension to divinity has pros and cons associated with it, and not every Estelar would favor or desire ascension. Likewise, it may be harder for primordials to ascend to divinity (about as hard as a mortal), but some may choose to do so like Kossuth and other Primordials clearly did.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 18:50:21
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Of course, also in fairness, there is some argument that some deities existed prior to their mortal worshipers--Corellon being a decent example. So, it is very clear that deities--at least some of them--having mortal worshipers was necessary.


Isn't "needing mortal faith" a necessity of deities in the Realms only?

Deities from Greyhawk, Dragonlance and other settings don't have this necessity. They have mortal followers to increase their powers, not because they need them to survive. The only deities needing mortal faith for survival stuff are the deities in the Realms, as far as I'm aware.

I always though this was some rule of Ao.


There are deities (like Corellon) who existed before their followers, so they don't need mortal worshipers to have power. However, perhaps one of the "rules" for creating a race is that, once you do, you have to have followers. In a way, it's the deity's responsibility to make sure their creations follow them once they make them. It's like parenting. All right, you had this child, now you have to take care of it LOL.

Also, perhaps having mortal faith further stimulates the deity's powers. So, while not a necessity (at least until the ToT), followers give deities that extra boost.
Aldrick Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 12:59:59
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.


The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.


There are notes about it throughout Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons. It does not refer to a single isolated event, but rather a series of events that took place over a period of time. The general consensus in the lore is that it began after the fall of Netheril, and resulted in the death or alteration of numerous deities.

The in canon explanation for things is that Lathander was attempting to re-shape the pantheon in his image. Basically, if you look at the other pantheons (Elven, Multhorandi, Dwarven, Orcish, etc.) you will see that these pantheons have a 'leader'. It is implied that Lathander was trying to become that deity for the Faerunian Pantheon and that he, in particular, wanted to get rid of all of the evil deities.

Obviously, he failed. We ended up with the pantheon that we see in canon.

If you take a close reading of the lore, you can basically see what happened. There was a period of large human migration and cultural intermixing. This started to cause the pantheons of many different human ethnic groups to begin intermixing. Just as the Netherese once had their own pantheon of deities, and the Mulhorandi and the Untheric people had their pantheons--the same was true for other Faerunian human ethnic groups as well. There was the Calishite pantheon, the Talfric pantheon, the Jhaamdathan pantheon, etc. We have the names of some of their deities that did not make it, or began to be absorbed by deities of other pantheons.

This was something like a Time of Troubles style event that played out over the course of decades and centuries. It's not something that happened all at once. And, honestly, Lathander probably gets blamed for it unjustly. It had more to do with Ao's rule that no deity greater than demi-god could hold the same portfolio in the same pantheon. Thus, the conflict was inevitable as the pantheons began merging.

We were starting to see the beginnings of this type of conflict in the Old Empires, after the fall of Unther, between the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon. There were already opening salvo's happening in the battle for Unther between the various cults.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.


Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki

quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki

The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.

---

Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.


So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).


I support all of that. It is not important to running the Realms, but it is important to know from a lore and design perspective. It matters less on Toril, but it becomes more important as we discuss the cosmology and the multiverse.

All 5E did was bring the deities back down to how Ed had always described them. The deities are real, they exist, they manifest their powers and presence through dream visions, omens, signs, and various types of manifestations (a rosy glow over an altar for Lathander, as an example). They do not talk directly to mortals, 'This is where I want you to go, and what I want you to do...' They do not run around in avatar form and chill out with mortals...

The deities are back to the way they should have always been portrayed in the setting. All of this, in my view, is a good thing.

However... when it comes to the cosmology we have to work some stuff out. Like, for example, Banehold is an actual place you can go to and visit. Is it possible to bump into Bane there? If not, then what does it look like? What does someone visiting this plane find and see? If the deities do not make physical appearances any longer (IMO that is my ideal) then we have to wonder what happens with the primordials.

Basically, this is why I like making the Estelar or 'first gods' different from those who have ascended to divinity. We could essentially just make Estelar the broad equivalent of Archfey, Archfiends, etc. They are of similar power and ability as primordials. They can still do battle with primordials. Ascended deities also need powerful servitors, so that when you visit Banehold you won't necessarily find Bane there, but you would find a powerful Arch-Devil who is a general and tyrant of the plane in service and communion with Bane. As for Bane himself... he *IS* Banehold. As in, that is his physical manifestation. Bane himself is divine energy and Banehold is a reflection of mortal belief about Bane, and as views of Bane shift over time Banehold shifts along with it.

I am working out some of the finer details of how it all works, and how to make things multispheric. I am using as a guidepost what is discussed in Faiths and Avatars--with the understanding (and freedom) that Ao could have altered some things when he rewrote the Tablets of Fate.
Zeromaru X Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 07:27:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And here's something we haven't played with yet {I pull another toy from the toybox} - The Dawn Cataclysm (note the name, BTW... coincidence?) And you want to know whats cool about that? Not only is the name kinda perfect (for our purposes), but it also happened 'outside of time' ("reached backwards and forwards in time"?) And gods were involved... again. A SUN god, as a matter of fact. Mucked around with time and managed to split a perfectly good deity into two separate, very different halves.


The Dawn Cataclysm... Can you point me out to the sourcebook were they talk of this event? I'm curious about it, but I don't know in what book I can read about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Unfortunately, I do not think we can really overlook the Overpowers, mostly because canon shoved it so hard down our throats, lol. After Ao was introduced designers tried to walk it all back, and basically pretend that Ao did not exist anymore. They treated him as if he were some sort of background element. However, with 5th Edition they put him squarely in the driver's seat and at the center of things once more.


Yeah, but after the Second Sundering, Ao and other gods, for that matter, are just decorative background. To cite the FR Wiki

quote:
Originally posted by FR Wiki

The Sundering brought significant changes to how the deities approached mortals. Many gods became "quieter" than before, causing the emergence of new priesthoods to try to explain the different behaviour. That, however, didn't mean that deities couldn't still be seen interacting more directly with mortals. Mystra was still able to directly commune with her Chosen, while Eilistraee and Vhaeraun personally let their return be known, manifesting through their avatars to their followers. Eilistraee, in particular, was seen dancing and speaking to mortals in many places, especially along the Sword Coast (including Waterdeep, where she was witnessed dancing under the walls of the city in 1491 DR). The Mulhorandi gods still ruled among their people, directly interacting with them.

---

Gods have, to an extent, withdrawn from the world, ushering in a kind of 'Age of Mortals'. They are no longer speaking directly to most of their worshipers, instead sending signs and portents e.g. In the Rise of Tiamat storyline, Tiamat's followers are doing all of the work to bring her onto the Material Plane, whereas before the Second Sundering, she likely would have sent an Avatar to do some of the work.


So, unless you're planning to do a project regarding gods, I suggest we just leave them be, like the decorative stuff they became in 5e (yeah, I think they killed one of the main unique features of the Realms, that you meet with gods even in your supper...).

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I think it makes sense to leave stuff about Ao and the Dawn War as murky as possible. However, we have to acknowledge their existence, and because of that we at least have to figure out where they came from and what they do. What they did and how they did it is where things can get murky, but we have to understand them in the context of the big picture--how they all fit together as a greater whole.

...hopefully that makes sense. What I am trying to say is that we have all of these different groups, the Primordials, the Estelar, the Overpowers, etc. We have to figure out what they are and why they exist. After that, we can leave most everything murky.



Here is as I understand it.

Supreme Overpower appears (Master, Luminous Being, whatever), created multiverse.

Minor Overpowers appear (Ao, Lady of Pain, the Serpent, the World Serpent, etc.), set about to order this multiverse.

Concepts appear (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Neutrality). Begin to fight because reasons. Create agents for this war, such as Obyriths, and those.

Gods and primordials appears. They create mortal worlds and the first mortals.

Dawn War, multiverse in chaos. Some primordials join the gods. Multiverse is saved.

Individual histories of each sphere.

Beyond the creation of the world, I really doubt mortals need to know more. The Luminous Being exist, yeah. Do mortals know about it? I dunno. They barely know about Ao and the gods.

They need to know about this? I don't think so.

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