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 The Candlekanon: Policy Discussion

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Aldrick Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 22:33:56
Okay, let's review where we are at:

1. We decided overwhelmingly to support a community based canon in order to sustain the Realms. This fan canon, which will deviate from the WotC canon, will be called the Candlekanon.

2. We decided overwhelmingly to organize the Candlekanon around a Wiki. The Wiki is already up and running, and can be found here.

3. We decided overwhelmingly that the Candlekanon will accept all existing published canon, and will accept submitted lore from any place on the timeline. Future WotC canon will also have to be submitted under the same process as any other submission, and as a result may be rejected by the community, integrated in a way the community feels is most appropriate or accepted as it is presented in the official canon.

4. We decided overwhelmingly that the Candlekanon will begin at 1500 DR, which is 9 years after the current canon date of 1491 DR.

These are the things we have decided already. Now that we have made these decisions we have to move onto the next phase, which is discussing the type of policies we are going to use on the Wiki. Now, obviously, not everything has to be set in stone. The policies will adapt and evolve with the needs of the Wiki--there will likely be future policies necessary that we cannot envision right now. However, there are some policies that are going to be vital right from the outset. I think two of those policies will be how we decide what becomes Candlekanon and what does not, and the format in which the Candlekanon will be written.

On the first major policy, how we determine what becomes and does not become Candlekanon, it is important for us to start discussing those details now. We had some of those discussions previously, but I have tried to delay them until this point--we had to establish the previously mentioned things first.

On the second major policy, the format in which Candlekanon submissions will be accepted, we have also have had some discussions. Basically, this comes down to whether or not submissions will be similar to the Volo's Guides with an unreliable narrator, or more encyclopedic with an omniscient narrator. There are pro's and con's to both methods, and I really think we need to have a discussion on it before we hold a vote.

In both instances these are really difficult policies to retroactively change later down the line. In the first instance, it could lead to hard feelings and accusations of favoritism, and in the second instance it would require us to go back and basically rewrite all previously established Candlekanon entries. Trying to get these two policies correct right out of the gate is critical.

Of course, I do not want to lock us down to just these two policy discussions. There are other policies that we need to consider. Just take a look, as an example, of the policies for the Forgotten Realms Wiki. We are going to need similar policies for our Wiki, and perhaps some additional ones as well. So, this is an opportunity to begin these discussions.

Once we have had some time to discuss things, our next two major votes will be to decide the two major policies I brought up here. These votes will probably happen more-or-less simultaneously. Policies that are discussed here will also be brought up for a vote later.

As a side note, I am looking for people who have some skills with Wikia organization. We need to update the templates, themes, CSS, and all that good stuff. We need to begin getting the format and basic layout down for the Wiki, as at the moment, it is mostly being used to organize personal stuff for later submission. If you are a FR Wiki admin in good standing, and would also like to be an admin on the CK Wiki, let me know.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 Sep 2017 : 20:35:45
Dunno if this is going to advance, but I've made my Avowed.
BadCatMan Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 10:40:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Would scribes be able to work on a piece together? For example, if two had ideas for Waterdeep, and they meshed well together, could they submit something together?
Well, since it IS a Wiki, and Wiki ARE group projects, I don't see why not. Lots of Wiki pages get edited by someone else later on, so many pages wind-up with more than one author.


They sure can. Often on the FRW, one editor starts an article then another gets interested or knows some more lore then adds it soon after. All pages are collaborative efforts. The only issue is the conflict of two people trying to edit at the same time, or having draft work they haven't uploaded yet being disrupted. At the FRW, we have a Working tag to stake out a page to prevent conflicts.

A key part of wiki philosophy is accepting that what you write can and will be added to, changed, rewritten, or removed in the future.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And I can see THAT being a problem as well - someone 'tweaking' the Wiki to better suit their campaign, and then the original author being like, "No, thats NOT how I meant that to be".


The structure of the CKW being worked out should negate this. Personal projects in User spaces would be impolite to touch and don't tend to attract vandals, while the Candlekanon in the main namespace is assumed to be set in stone. Edits beyond minor corrections or approved additions would be taken as vandalism and be undone by admins or other users who monitor the Recent Changes or Wiki Activity logs.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've actually seen a guy (many, MANY years ago) try to prove his character has some super-item by showing some supposed 'errata' that TSR had put out about a magical item... that he of course had. The other younglings at the table weren't sure what to do, but after reading that mess, spelling-errors and all (not just the usual, early-TSR typos, either... it was BAD), I also recognized where he plagiarized the concept from.

Basically, he typed up what he wanted, then photocopied it so it didn't looked typed-up, and tried to pass it off as an 'official TSR document'. And if you don't think people will edit a Wiki, and then point to same Wiki to justify why their character can 'do something in-game', then you don't know gamers very well.


Blimey. I've not seen that on the FRW, but we rarely get to see the motivations of vandals.

But vandalism is a problem for any wiki. The FRW has been plagued for several years by one who persistently adds incorrect categories (usually the same ones) and another who alters values of height, weight, etc. The usual ones are passers-by who insert some rubbish and/or remove text. These are generally the work of a few seconds to undo and block. Only a few are more hazardous.
Zeromaru X Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 03:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have this idea of making a sage from Laerakond instead, or maybe from Tymanther... (because, I'm most knowledgeable about Abeir than Toril). Maybe an swordmage/eldritch knight sage... mmm



LOL. When I suggested that we have "avowed" type characters, I personally was speaking in a generic sense. Not like actually building fully fleshed out characters with stats and stuff. More like, 'this scribe is named Oland Rivers and he knows a lot about dragons.'


I do like to come up with concepts for my characters. Like, the full-package. If that character comes up at my table, s/he is totally fleshed up.

And I'm aware that my Oland Rivers will be a different version of Ckanon Oland Rivers.
Adhriva Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 02:51:57
I can't imagine why scribes couldn't work together on things. If anything, I would think that's the goal. My take is that if it's on the Wiki, it belongs to the community. I would say that also includes articles about in-realm contributors to the library other and personages. Avowed X might be a personal avatar you created but let them live their own stories even if those stories come from another source. Its a shared world built on a shared world, so go into it expecting to share what you have. At the end of the day, you will always have a vote and say in what happens to what and whom you created due to the acceptance policy as it currently stands. I would also be hard pressed to imagine the community wouldn't naturally give the original creator's feedback more weight in the voting process too even if it's not a hardline or spoken policy.

If it hasn't been accepted yet, get with the the scribe and figure out how to approach a joint submission. I imagine it won't be any different as we're voting on the articles themselves but will it be all relevant additions at once or in sections at a time (get the connections out of the way and then each focuses on their own)? Smaller additions are pretty straight forward and it's just deciding which Username/project it's going to be under. Otherwise I imagine a lot of it will simply come down to how far the proposed articles have come along and how much is still have left to do before it's put up to vote. For example, my project is extremely interconnected so I was thinking of throwing it up all at once because how everything ties together is important to the story. If someone wants to work with some of the content though, I know I would happily push everything connected to the front so they didn't have to wait on the whole thing. Likewise, I have no problem with people directly adding their own content to the articles I'm working on, especially if it wouldn't be a separate article. Not everyone will be so open in general, so always get with the scribe and talk about what you have and how they fit together. Maybe mark connective segments in an article with a different format for the back and forth discussion stages. Because we're using the Username/project method for proposals, most proposals aren't likely to be seen once things kick off unless the scribes already aware so it's really going to come down to a case by case basis for the scribes. Right now everything is proposals but that will all get lost easily when the majority of the wiki becomes actual pages of accepted content.
Zeromaru X Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:22:09
Well, I guess all stuff (even editions to previous stuff in the wiki) had to be voted upon and agreed by the editors in the Candlekanon project before being submitted.

Good thing about wikis is that they have the history log of the article in question (so we can see what was changed and who changed it) and the ability to undone changes at any point. And we can also protect articles from editions of un-registered users (and even registered users), though only the admins have that power.
Markustay Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 23:28:28
Yeah, I looked that up myself, in the RL MM's. It was just a living, mortal 'race' that drank human blood (so basically, crazy people).

I know there was at least one 'Daywalker' - it may have been in a RL supplement (I recall one that dealt with Domainless 'Dark Lords'). So no race - just something unique, I think. In fact, I think that one happened 'by accident' as well (don't they all?)

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Would scribes be able to work on a piece together? For example, if two had ideas for Waterdeep, and they meshed well together, could they submit something together?
Well, since it IS a Wiki, and Wiki ARE group projects, I don't see why not. Lots of Wiki pages get edited by someone else later on, so many pages wind-up with more than one author.

And I can see THAT being a problem as well - someone 'tweaking' the Wiki to better suit their campaign, and then the original author being like, "No, thats NOT how I meant that to be". I've actually seen a guy (many, MANY years ago) try to prove his character has some super-item by showing some supposed 'errata' that TSR had put out about a magical item... that he of course had. The other younglings at the table weren't sure what to do, but after reading that mess, spelling-errors and all (not just the usual, early-TSR typos, either... it was BAD), I also recognized where he plagiarized the concept from.

Basically, he typed up what he wanted, then photocopied it so it didn't looked typed-up, and tried to pass it off as an 'official TSR document'. And if you don't think people will edit a Wiki, and then point to same Wiki to justify why their character can 'do something in-game', then you don't know gamers very well.
sleyvas Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 19:55:25
There was a "vampyre" for 2nd edition ravenloft that was a daywalker. It wasn't an undead though
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/vamypre.php

There was also a vampyre that set things on fire in Ruins of Undermountain I, page 28. I only remember them because I had a Cult of Kossuthians, and this vampire was a servant of the cult. However, in life he was a painter, and so he was tortured by the fact that whenever he picked up a paint brush or touched a piece of paper it lit up in flame.

Vampyre
This rare subspecies of vampire is sometimes mistakenly called a #147;Fireghost.#148; It is identical to the western vampire except that fire of any sort cannot harm it, and its touch#151;when in solid form#151;acts as a produce flame (2nd level priest) spell. Like a normal western vampire, a vampyre can spider climb, or shape change into a large bat; it must be in this form to fly, and in this form only can touch or carry things without harming them. It can also assume gaseous form at will; the vampyre has no fire power in this form or as a bat. Holy water or lawful good holy symbols can cause 2-7 points of damage per contact.

Vampyres typically lair in burnedbare, desolate stone places. When encountering intelligent creatures, they usually try to set the clothing of several creatures alight, and then attack as their prey tries to extinguish the flames, effect healing, or move precious items such as scrolls away from harm (Dexterity checks and item saving throws may apply). Vampyres have a unique ability: instead of always draining energy from
those they touch, they can transfer life energy to both living and undead creatures (2 levels or 2d8 hit points) by will and contact. This release of energy is through the breath, and is only done for a mate or other being for whom the vampyre has feelings of love or deep
friendship-it is usually done with a kiss. The transfer drains an equivalent number of hit points from the vampyre during this process; the vampyre will be appropriately weakened by this ability until the energy can be regenerated or replenished.

Vampyre: Int Exceptional; AL CE; AC 1; MV 12, Fl 18 (C); HD 8 + 3; THAC0 13; #AT 1; Dmg 5-10 + special; SA produce flame (1d4 + 1 fiery damage), energy drain (2 levels), charm person gaze (save vs. spell at -2), 18/76 Strength: +2 to hit and +4 to damage; SD +1 or better weapons to hit, immune to poisons, paralysis, firebased attacks of all sorts, sleep, charm, and hold spells, and half damage from cold-based and electrical attacks; ML 16; XP 5,000; (MC1, Vampire).

CorellonsDevout Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 19:25:00
Would scribes be able to work on a piece together? For example, if two had ideas for Waterdeep, and they meshed well together, could they submit something together?
Markustay Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 18:40:30
Wow, a lot of feedback on a casual comment - people must really love that guy!

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can finally write-up the legend of Dûd Onahorz!



I'd hold off on that if I was you.

-- George Krashos

I know that artwork has an official name (from a game-card, IIRC), so it actually won't interfere, at all. He can easily be a forgotten-about, put-up-for-adpotion, 'long lost twin'.

When I created the concept, he was basically FR's 'Lone Ranger' (he even had a Sharran woman sidekick named 'Squanto'). However, when 4e came around I decided to kill him off (actually, WotC decided to kill EVERYONE off LOL). Then when I saw all the authors were saving their favorite (Marysue) Characters, I decided he also lived... sort of. He went from being the 'Lone Ranger' to being 'Blade'; Squanto was murdered by vampires, whom he tracked down and killed... all except one, the one that bit him. He had planned to take his own life before sunset so as not to come back as a vile undead, but then a wall of blue Cerulean energy (the Spellplague) washed over him. He awoke the next day (too late to kill himself before the curse), and the sunlight hurt his eyes (like a Drow), but he lived! He was a DAYWALKER.*

so now he's a lot like a WH 'Witchunter' type character.

And if you think its weird that I think the Lone Ranger would make a good Witch Hunter, why do you think he carried 'Silver Bullets'?

EDIT:I just found my old info on him (which was a touch better than what I wrote above). The card/mini was named 'Thunderstorm', so I assume that is the one GK is telling me not to use? I included a link to the art above, in case anyone else doesn't know who we're talking about.

*Ravenloft had a D&D name for those - was it Vampyre?
____________________________________________________________________________________________

And as far as our in-setting 'Wiki Sages' goes, its just one more NPC for people to have fun with. just avoid using real (canon) charatcers (or objects). We are probably going to create hundreds upon hundreds of NPCs if this takes off, so whats a few more? if anything, it'll give someone running an adventure at Candlekeep (in FR) some interesting NPCs to use. In fact, take Candlekeep itself as the major collaborative part of the 'fanon' we plan to create.


Hell, if people really like the stuff about CK itself, I may even do a map of the place.
BadCatMan Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 17:30:03
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

So I could submit the illustrative artwork I'm working on, that deals with canon material, to the FRWiki too? I did not know that. I thought it was only Wizards/TSR produced pieces that were accepted. I'll have to remember this and send a couple of art bundles your way when I'm done.



Well, we don't not accept fan-made artworks. :) That is, we don't yet have a firm image policy and there are already a variety of fan-made images on the wiki: a few artworks (such as one on the Eilistraee page), a number of crests and badges, and a large number of maps by Markustay and others, as well as public-domain images of weapons, armours, and gems for reference, so it's kind of allowed on precedent. Personally I'm not a fan of the non-TSR/WotC artwork, but the other users don't seem to have strong opinions on it or are in favour, so, shrug, it remains hazy.

But I'd say the preference is to only have fan artwork for things that otherwise aren't illustrated in the official works (books being mostly text), so a bare article could be featured. If there is canon artwork, it should take priority. The community would also have to agree the image is faithful and accurate, without homebrew elements, and necessary for the article.

Meanwhile, a developed CKW would be a good place to store and present fan-made art.

In addition, the FRW has recently begun hosting select fan-made videos (well, one so far) from the Faerun History channel on Youtube. In this case, video articles were required by Wikia/FANDOM, so some members contacted their creator and Wikia/FANDOM organised it.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora
Adhriva Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 16:58:43
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

As far as scope.....That's something I think we need to be careful with. Same with images (that aren't created by us). I'd have to see the license. Part of fair use is not confusing derivative works with official works. As the FRwiki only deals with canon material, they have a good case of using images by WotC/TSR because it only promotes canon material. Considering most of our content is derivative by definition, we might not be able to. Something to keep in mind.


To obtain images, you could reach out to fan artists and mapmakers and ask them for permission to use their images. It advertises their work, which they may appreciate. Some upload their pieces to the FRW, which we currently accept with proper attribution and clear permission (I don't like having non-canon art and maps though.) Sometimes, people upload the art of others without permission, which the artists sometimes object to, and we don't accept these images and delete them.


So I could submit the illustrative artwork I'm working on, that deals with canon material, to the FRWiki too? I did not know that. I thought it was only Wizards/TSR produced pieces that were accepted. I'll have to remember this and send a couple of art bundles your way when I'm done.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 13:13:54
I missed the original discussion, but I've heard of Dûd Onahorz more than once since then.
Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:30:38
I'll see what I can do.
BadCatMan Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:23:46
Getting back here at last. I wish I had more time to put into this.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

^AGREE^ (*I've found - working with BCM before on the Utter East - that he tends to make a LOT of sense)
{shakes fist at Irennan} "how dare you get between me and my buddy BadCatman!"
EDIT: But since you agree with both of us, you're forgiven.


I'm a font of wisdom. :D

For example, further thoughts on omniscient vs unreliable POV. The quote template can be used to put a narrator's words in big quotes, distinguishing it from the regular text of the article.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thus, 'omniscent', that segue-ways into 'uncertain'. I've seen that elsewhere - if you really stop and think about, the entirety of the Netheril boxed set is presented that way (NONE OF IT may be true!), because if you read the intro, its just a 'story' Larloch is telling to Szass Tam. Yet, everyone excepts that box as 'omniscient'... but its really not. In fact, I'd argue not a single shred of FR lore is 'omniscient', since the basic premise of the setting is that it is 'tales told by Elminster to Ed Greenwood on cold winter nights' (He lives in Canada - they're ALL 'cold winter nights' LOL).


In fact, it's all lies, Elminster made it all up to conceal the truth of this other world.

In fact, Elminster is just a local crazy guy with something weird in his eversmoking pipe who rambles on about magical worlds. :D

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I am curious as to whether anyone can address my personal concerns about an unreliable narrator:

How should we handle "factual" disputes? For example, person X says Z NPC is alive, but person Y claims that Z NPC is dead. Alternatively, person X claims that Z organization is active in this area, but person Y claims that Z organization was disbanded a decade ago.

How should we handle the transition from "unreliability" to "reliability"? For example, person X claims that organization Z has the goal of achieving A, but person Y claims that organization Z has the goal of achieving B. Then sometime in the future, person X writes further lore that has organization Z achieving the goal of A, thus invaliding the lore put forward by person Y of organization Z attempting to achieve goal B.

These two questions are obviously interlinked. My desires and concerns are centered around attempting to pre-emptively deal with arguments, hard feelings, and opposition to changes. While an unreliable narrator gives us more flexibility, it also simultaneously raises the stakes for heated disagreements and arguments. I see these things going hand in hand, but maybe someone has a solution that can solve these problems that does not immediately come to my mind.


At the FRW we find such conflicts in the canon lore all the time. Even with our canon-based discrepancy policy, I find you can really only resolve discrepancies on a case-by-case basis. So, in these examples, the two people involved would discuss it and come to a compromise. In a homebrew setting, you can solve anything with more story, and in most cases, you can say both happened. NPC Z died, but was resurrected. Organization Z was briefly disbanded, then reformed. It has goal A, but this shifted to goal B over time, or it pursues goal A in the west, goal B in the east. Remember the Forgotten Realms' designer's golden rule: don't close a plothook without opening another. I think that would be the key policy of the CKW.

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

As far as scope.....That's something I think we need to be careful with. Same with images (that aren't created by us). I'd have to see the license. Part of fair use is not confusing derivative works with official works. As the FRwiki only deals with canon material, they have a good case of using images by WotC/TSR because it only promotes canon material. Considering most of our content is derivative by definition, we might not be able to. Something to keep in mind.


To obtain images, you could reach out to fan artists and mapmakers and ask them for permission to use their images. It advertises their work, which they may appreciate. Some upload their pieces to the FRW, which we currently accept with proper attribution and clear permission (I don't like having non-canon art and maps though.) Sometimes, people upload the art of others without permission, which the artists sometimes object to, and we don't accept these images and delete them.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Can you tell me what direction the canon policy for the FRW is likely to go? I think it is important for the CKW to align closely with the FRW in terms of its canon policy. We are accepting everything that is published up to this date as canon. So, while we are adding stuff that is non-canon, it is being placed on top of--and ideally not contradicting (at least not on purpose)--already established canon.


I think we need to incorporate recent developments like Dragon+, DM's Guild allowing user submissions, and Convention Created Content being accepted into Adventurers' League and thence DM's Guild. There's also the issue of the Forgotten Realms becoming the core setting: just because it's in core doesn't meant it's in the Realms. Finally, off-the-cuff, hard-to-source remarks made by designers and writers on social media tend to be ephemeral and cryptic, and not especially useful for the wiki. These will likely all be raised eventually, when other projects settle down.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I've given both Moviesign and BadCatMan administrative privileges over at the CKWiki, since they are admins on the FRWiki, and they both know more about how FANDOM's Wiki works than I do.


Curse you! :p But thanks. :) Sorry I haven't been in to do anything there yet, it's hard enough finding time to work on one wiki, let alone a second.

And in turn welcome to the Forgotten Realms Wiki!

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Oooh, so we could actually be characters, of a sort? That would be cool...


quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

For the record, this is a tremendous idea... Since we're presenting this as the collective writings of the Sages of Candlekeep, we should totally do this and present writings from an in-universe perspective... If we can have our Sage contributions to the Candlekanon presented like this... Is it terrible that I literally just want to be the Cyrinishad? And have writings that are presented as excerpts from it?


Heh. Check out the Current Clacks shown on the Forgotten Realms Wiki's Main Page and the misadventures of us sages as we explore the setting. :D It's fun, but too bad I can only update them haphazardly.

You can go far on an immersive element. I think an owl delivers messages on the Harry Potter Wiki, and others gives badges and achievements for certain work. But it's extra work for no real gain. Wiki work should focus on coding and content development, not playing games, IMO.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Something I noticed that you might find amusing Markus, is that a lot of those Wiki's--including the FR Wiki--have maps for their Wiki backgrounds, LOL. I did not make that connection until I started pulling all these links to share with you.


I maintain that was an original idea when I had it. :) Most wikis I looked at used artwork, so I thought a map was a novel idea.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


EDIT:
I can finally write-up the legend of Dûd Onahorz!


-Holy throwback...I think, what, maybe four people in total know about Dûd Onahorz. Good times.



I'm one!
George Krashos Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 06:35:06
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Markustay[/i
I can finally write-up the legend of Dûd Onahorz!



I'd hold off on that if I was you.

-- George Krashos
Lord Karsus Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 04:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


EDIT:
I can finally write-up the legend of Dûd Onahorz!


-Holy throwback...I think, what, maybe four people in total know about Dûd Onahorz. Good times.
Aldrick Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 04:07:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I can help with anything like logos and stuff, but the only Web pages I ever created was back on AOL, and they had a nifty web-page building app that mostly did it for you. And then there was MySpace, which could use a lot of custom coding... which is why it was a virus-fest. I've forgotten most of what I knew, in that regard.


Yeah, I was looking at a lot of different Wiki's to try and get a feel for a good lay out.

My favorite was the Dragon Age Wiki: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Age_Wiki

I felt that the Dragon Age Wiki had the cleanest main page layout and that got a user to where they wanted to go as quickly as possible.

I also looked at A Song of Ice and Fire Wiki:
http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Wiki

A Game of Thrones Wiki:
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_Wiki

Wookieepedia / Star Wars Wiki:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Mass Effect Wiki:
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_Wiki

Forgotten Realms Wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Warhammer Fantasy Wiki:
http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_Wiki

Greyhawk Wiki:
http://greyhawk.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Eberron Wiki:
http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Eberron_Wiki

Dark Sun Wiki:
http://darksun.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Sun_Wiki

Some of the earlier Wikis I was looking at them because I knew they were high traffic Wikis. Therefore, I knew they would likely have the best layouts. Like I said I preferred the Dragon Age layout--very clean.

The later Wikis--starting with the FR Wiki--are similar Wikis to our own. I looked at them for similar reasons, but also to see what they were putting on their front pages.

Something I noticed that you might find amusing Markus, is that a lot of those Wiki's--including the FR Wiki--have maps for their Wiki backgrounds, LOL. I did not make that connection until I started pulling all these links to share with you.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

However, if we do a write-up (not stats - just lore) for our in-Wiki Sages, that gives the whole thing another level of 'depth'. Now that I think about it, its very similar to what Paizo does with its 'iconics' (a lot of setting nuisances are conveyed through them).



Yeah, I get it. I do not think it is a bad thing, per-say. My concern is that people will get overly attached to "their character" and get upset if lore gets updated by another character. We could see something like, "Alver the All Knowing CAN'T be wrong! He grew up in Halruaa! He even has a personal Skyship! Demkor the Dumb grew up in Cormyr, what could he possibly know about Halruaa? It looks stupid for him to correct Alver about his own native homeland!"

Then there might be a particular case where a particular Avowed might be necessary to use (i.e. specialist in draconic lore), but someone has a personal preference for said Avowed and does not want other people writing for that particular character.

That's the kinda stuff that I worry about.

I'm personally fine with the idea of people naming particular folks at Candlekeep and using them to write snippets of flavor text or whatever. I am just concerned about the type of problems that might spawn outward from that, you know what I mean?
Markustay Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 03:13:40
I can help with anything like logos and stuff, but the only Web pages I ever created was back on AOL, and they had a nifty web-page building app that mostly did it for you. And then there was MySpace, which could use a lot of custom coding... which is why it was a virus-fest. I've forgotten most of what I knew, in that regard.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have this idea of making a sage from Laerakond instead, or maybe from Tymanther... (because, I'm most knowledgeable about Abeir than Toril). Maybe an swordmage/eldritch knight sage... mmm



LOL. When I suggested that we have "avowed" type characters, I personally was speaking in a generic sense. Not like actually building fully fleshed out characters with stats and stuff. More like, 'this scribe is named Oland Rivers and he knows a lot about dragons.'

However, if we do a write-up (not stats - just lore) for our in-Wiki Sages, that gives the whole thing another level of 'depth'. Now that I think about it, its very similar to what Paizo does with its 'iconics' (a lot of setting nuisances are conveyed through them).
Aldrick Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 01:57:41
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

My 2 coppers:


  • Use both types of narrators, but create style templates for each so the reader recognizes what will be unreliable/reliable.


  • Use Wikia's polling feature on new entries to record the votes. Yes, Scribes then have to register an account, but it's less cluttered than trying to do it here, and it records who voted. After the voting is done, the article will be removed on rejection, or the poll closed (and removed) if accepted.




I like both of these ideas.

quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

I might be able to help with templates and such, just drop me a message here or to my Wikia account (KageZero).


That would be super helpful. Do you have any idea how to create something like they did on the Dragon Age Wiki: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Age_Wiki

I would love to have an image on the homepage with buttons like that to organize stuff. One major button for the Candlekanon, then off to the side four additional buttons: Candlekanon Submissions, Candlekanon Voting, Homebrew Material, Forgotten Realms Canon (Link to FR Wiki).

This would divide the Wiki up nicely into all of its core relevant sections.

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

Thanks for linking the old scroll. Seems they discarded the idea. Too bad, I thought it had merit. I like the idea of visually fleshing out the realms. It's a hell of a lot of work - just fleshing out Cormanthyr has been daunting - but it's also proven a fun outlet thus far and makes for good practice. That would be a good thing for the fanon to pick up.

As for liking the style of art more: good! It's a style that makes things alot easier on me. :) The new stuff is fun and visually appealing...but that is also becoming very generic as time goes on and we keep copying off each other in the industry. With the older art from 2e, there is more of a....flare? in the dynamic light granted by the comic style inking used. When I did the Prince Miritar and Ealoeth inked piece that's on the fanon, I was originally planning to digitally paint it but decided to ink it instead at the last minute. I needed the practice. What struck me, since I don't ink often, was how much I changed what I was originally planning to better fit the medium. Not the concept itself - the Druid Prince is still wearing armor that mirrors the heraldry of Cormanthyr with a cloak that looks like starlight, leaves on the shoulders, the bark layers of a trunk, the white flare on the sides of the banner by the cloth, and the roots represented by the strips of studded leather protecting his legs and so on and so forth - but how much I had to step back and reassess how to convey this or that design, material, or pattern because the original idea simply would never work in this pure black and white only medium. Some things I just never figured out, like how to stop the Artblade with it's pure black blade from getting lost in the space so close to Hesaphae's wing. Nonetheless, because the question became one of "how do I convey this" rather then "how to I capture the way it looks", I think in some ways it engages the imagination of the audience more then a realistic illustration. The mark-making uses more symbolism, style, and simplification of the subjec portray more then simply relying on visual mimicry. I can't help but wonder if that's why the art for earlier editions, and early fantasy in general, often speaks to different fans then the modern fantasy art forms do.


I agree 100%. Also, if people have NOT seen the image you are talking about they should go look--it is amazing. Here is the link for anyone interested.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I have this idea of making a sage from Laerakond instead, or maybe from Tymanther... (because, I'm most knowledgeable about Abeir than Toril). Maybe an swordmage/eldritch knight sage... mmm



LOL. When I suggested that we have "avowed" type characters, I personally was speaking in a generic sense. Not like actually building fully fleshed out characters with stats and stuff. More like, 'this scribe is named Oland Rivers and he knows a lot about dragons.'

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Package deals you crafted for yourself and self-contradictory "policies", yes. And tomorrow, "community organizers".
Which is why it was bound to be as worthless as the show of appeasement in 5e development before it started.



I am not sure if you are upset with me, the project in general, the projects direction, 5th edition, or all of the above.

quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo

Well met

I commend thee for undertaking this ambitious and great project. However, could you please remove the Candlekeep logo and the logo in the background image as this is not authorised by Candlekeep.com and can give false impression of ownership from both sides. Many thanks.



I removed it. Moviesign did that lay out for something temporary. I had already started working on something more specific for the CKWiki, rather than using Candlekeeps specific design. However, I was hoping to find someone who knew CSS and someone who could do some graphic layout artwork design for the Wiki. I want to give the appearance that wiki is an open scroll on a desk / table of some sort.

Anyway, I removed the CK background and logo and went with what I originally had planned to use.
Alaundo Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 19:24:36
Well met

I commend thee for undertaking this ambitious and great project. However, could you please remove the Candlekeep logo and the logo in the background image as this is not authorised by Candlekeep.com and can give false impression of ownership from both sides. Many thanks.
TBeholder Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 03:45:25
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Okay, let's review where we are at:

1. We decided overwhelmingly to support a community based canon in order to sustain the Realms. This fan canon, which will deviate from the WotC canon, will be called the Candlekanon.

2. We decided overwhelmingly to organize the Candlekanon around a Wiki. The Wiki is already up and running, and can be found here.

3. We decided overwhelmingly that the Candlekanon will accept all existing published canon, and will accept submitted lore from any place on the timeline. Future WotC canon will also have to be submitted under the same process as any other submission, and as a result may be rejected by the community, integrated in a way the community feels is most appropriate or accepted as it is presented in the official canon.

4. We decided overwhelmingly that the Candlekanon will begin at 1500 DR, which is 9 years after the current canon date of 1491 DR.

Package deals you crafted for yourself and self-contradictory "policies", yes. And tomorrow, "community organizers".
Which is why it was bound to be as worthless as the show of appeasement in 5e development before it started.
Zeromaru X Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 22:02:15
I have this idea of making a sage from Laerakond instead, or maybe from Tymanther... (because, I'm most knowledgeable about Abeir than Toril). Maybe an swordmage/eldritch knight sage... mmm
Adhriva Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 21:56:37
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
[brSilver Harp Mockup sketch (LINK)

Best part of all is sketches like these are not the most taxing thing in the world. I can do it anywhere, not just at the computer like the more intensive illustrations take.


I actually like this style of artwork more than a lot of the art we see in later editions, lol. So much of the art from later editions feels to 'over the top' almost comic-book style heroic. There is nothing wrong with that, per say, they are really pretty pictures, but it does not evoke the feeling of the Realms to me.

Just as an example, compare the 1E and 2E FRCS to the the FRCS/G of later editions. The art there is often simple and in black and white. The people often look relatively realistic, and not particularly heroic or over-the-top.

When I saw this image, this is what I was reminded of. It's the type of thing you would expect to see some sage or scribe somewhere putting into a book.

EDIT: I also just remembered something... back when they announced 5th Edition there was a lot of excitement. One of the things they said they were doing was putting together a Wiki for the Realms, and as part of that they were having artists draw renditions of what the various races, cultures, and stuff looked like. One of their goals was to have a consistent look for all of the characters--they even showed us examples of some of their Red Wizard concepts and had us look over them, asking our opinions. I am not sure what happened to that, but maybe that is something we could pick up here.

I found the link to the discussion we had about it here on Candlekeep here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17990


Thanks for linking the old scroll. Seems they discarded the idea. Too bad, I thought it had merit. I like the idea of visually fleshing out the realms. It's a hell of a lot of work - just fleshing out Cormanthyr has been daunting - but it's also proven a fun outlet thus far and makes for good practice. That would be a good thing for the fanon to pick up.

As for liking the style of art more: good! It's a style that makes things alot easier on me. :) The new stuff is fun and visually appealing...but that is also becoming very generic as time goes on and we keep copying off each other in the industry. With the older art from 2e, there is more of a....flare? in the dynamic light granted by the comic style inking used. When I did the Prince Miritar and Ealoeth inked piece that's on the fanon, I was originally planning to digitally paint it but decided to ink it instead at the last minute. I needed the practice. What struck me, since I don't ink often, was how much I changed what I was originally planning to better fit the medium. Not the concept itself - the Druid Prince is still wearing armor that mirrors the heraldry of Cormanthyr with a cloak that looks like starlight, leaves on the shoulders, the bark layers of a trunk, the white flare on the sides of the banner by the cloth, and the roots represented by the strips of studded leather protecting his legs and so on and so forth - but how much I had to step back and reassess how to convey this or that design, material, or pattern because the original idea simply would never work in this pure black and white only medium. Some things I just never figured out, like how to stop the Artblade with it's pure black blade from getting lost in the space so close to Hesaphae's wing. Nonetheless, because the question became one of "how do I convey this" rather then "how to I capture the way it looks", I think in some ways it engages the imagination of the audience more then a realistic illustration. The mark-making uses more symbolism, style, and simplification of the subjec portray more then simply relying on visual mimicry. I can't help but wonder if that's why the art for earlier editions, and early fantasy in general, often speaks to different fans then the modern fantasy art forms do.
Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 13:21:21
My 2 coppers:


  • Use both types of narrators, but create style templates for each so the reader recognizes what will be unreliable/reliable.

  • Use Wikia's polling feature on new entries to record the votes. Yes, Scribes then have to register an account, but it's less cluttered than trying to do it here, and it records who voted. After the voting is done, the article will be removed on rejection, or the poll closed (and removed) if accepted.



I might be able to help with templates and such, just drop me a message here or to my Wikia account (KageZero).
sleyvas Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 13:12:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmph

And I just threw that together on-the-fly. If I was asked to do the 'final' version, it would have been longer.

And yeah, we could each have our very own personal 'scribe of Candlekeep' that an article can be attributed to, and then it would even make it easier for people to recognize their 'favorites' from the alias. The one from my Elven Netbook articles I killed off, unfortunately. Of course, that was part of the Tablets of Destiny piece, which I never finished, so maybe...

On the one hand, a Drow 'scribe' would be pretty interesting, on the other, maybe it would be a bit much. I'm still looking for that Illithid one I know exists! I'll find you someday, ya' tentacled bastitch! {shakes fist}

I could always use a descendant of my in-setting (canon!) persona - Old Man Tay. He needs a grandkid that isn't in 'the family business'.



Yeah, I used to present most of my stuff as the bounty hunter Sleyvas, but over time I've created several others. My secondary favorite Lady Jillian Doncastle of Neverwinter (who resided in Waterdeep, but her family was from Neverwinter), who was a mage-priest detective of Deneir, but then I started talking through her intelligent, ambulatory sai Lorey at one point, and THAT was fun. Lorey is a pompous ass, who thinks he knows everything, is in love with his owner, gets jealous, and THINKS he can write grand poetry. In other words, take Volo, make him a little more annoying, and a little harder to kill because he has no heart.
Markustay Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 05:04:05
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

For the record, this is a tremendous idea... Since we're presenting this as the collective writings of the Sages of Candlekeep, we should totally do this and present writings from an in-universe perspective... If we can have our Sage contributions to the Candlekanon presented like this... Is it terrible that I literally just want to be the Cyrinishad? And have writings that are presented as excerpts from it?
But if you are the Cyrinishad, doesn't that mean we'll all become Cyric worshipers?

And so will everyone else who reads your entries?

You tricky git!



I don't think I'll be bringing back my (dark) Elven Sage. I really liked him, but his death (disappearance, really) was rather important to the story I was building with him (in fact, the information that he had - that elves wanted to suppress - was what was in the article about Gruumsh and Corellon). Of course, one copy of his notes survived... he had sent them on to Candlekeep just before his ship went missing.

Dwarves are my favorites, but I don't think I want to be a sagely one. A Stone Giant would be pretty damn cool (they are considered the 'scholars' of the giant race, and keep libraries/histories of their own). But I'll probably go with a ½ Shou human. Xavrion Tay
Aldrick Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 04:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
[brSilver Harp Mockup sketch (LINK)

Best part of all is sketches like these are not the most taxing thing in the world. I can do it anywhere, not just at the computer like the more intensive illustrations take.


I actually like this style of artwork more than a lot of the art we see in later editions, lol. So much of the art from later editions feels to 'over the top' almost comic-book style heroic. There is nothing wrong with that, per say, they are really pretty pictures, but it does not evoke the feeling of the Realms to me.

Just as an example, compare the 1E and 2E FRCS to the the FRCS/G of later editions. The art there is often simple and in black and white. The people often look relatively realistic, and not particularly heroic or over-the-top.

When I saw this image, this is what I was reminded of. It's the type of thing you would expect to see some sage or scribe somewhere putting into a book.

EDIT: I also just remembered something... back when they announced 5th Edition there was a lot of excitement. One of the things they said they were doing was putting together a Wiki for the Realms, and as part of that they were having artists draw renditions of what the various races, cultures, and stuff looked like. One of their goals was to have a consistent look for all of the characters--they even showed us examples of some of their Red Wizard concepts and had us look over them, asking our opinions. I am not sure what happened to that, but maybe that is something we could pick up here.

I found the link to the discussion we had about it here on Candlekeep here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17990
Cyrinishad Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 16:44:24
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I even have ideas to create a (DM)PC* sage, mmm...



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

...we could each have our very own personal 'scribe of Candlekeep' that an article can be attributed to, and then it would even make it easier for people to recognize their 'favorites' from the alias.



quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Kind of like here how we all have avatars here?



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, something like that, but these would be in-setting, and part of the CandleKanon.



quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Oooh, so we could actually be characters, of a sort? That would be cool...



For the record, this is a tremendous idea... Since we're presenting this as the collective writings of the Sages of Candlekeep, we should totally do this and present writings from an in-universe perspective... If we can have our Sage contributions to the Candlekanon presented like this... Is it terrible that I literally just want to be the Cyrinishad? And have writings that are presented as excerpts from it?
Adhriva Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 08:17:15
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

As far as scope.....That's something I think we need to be careful with. Same with images (that aren't created by us). I'd have to see the license. Part of fair use is not confusing derivative works with official works. As the FRwiki only deals with canon material, they have a good case of using images by WotC/TSR because it only promotes canon material. Considering most of our content is derivative by definition, we might not be able to. Something to keep in mind.


This is something I did not consider in terms of using images. I suppose we could always create our own art. I can draw stick figures.

Providing our own art would seem to be the way to go then.....
How, oh how, do I get myself into these things? Funny thing really.

So back when I was going at the Eclipsed Empire project at full force, I had a second project I came very close to announcing but ultimately put off time and time again to focus on my work with TEGG and it stalled with EE. This project was called SKETCHES FROM A SILVER HARP, and it was my way of repaying everyone who helped me do research for Eclipsed Empire or if they tied in their personal project with mine (yay collaboration!). It was an in-universe sketchbook as if someone had drawn what they saw from observation in the style of Alan Lee with LORD OF THE RINGS. For example, Dazzle helped me with Netheril and Shadovar, so a few sketches would go to what they looked liked, fashion, architecture, the occasional event that went down, and so forth (or in that particular case, was a historical find and/or exploration of ruins). Jeremy helped with Cormyr, so I was going to do the same thing for that region. With George it was Impiltur. So on and so forth. It was a quick way to get art and designs done for folks and establish a 'look of the realms' without killing myself over the finer details. At it's core, it's those quick 5 minute sketches I would do in the sketchbooks I carry everywhere regardless of what I had on my plate that day. Some were pencils, some pens, some paints - it was all over the place! Everything except crisp-digital worked because of the in-universe nature of it. Hell, this time around we can add some hand written elvish if time permits to really give it some Realms flavor. What made me think of it was the talk on characterization of the unreliable narrator we each could make use of. You see, this project called for these to be the sketches of the Harper, Hesaphae, as she traveled the realms helping to establish new chapters of Harpers - hence the name of the project. The original premise was to be presented as a visual guide to help other Harpers orient themselves into the areas and cultures each volume was focused on: how to blend in with the local fashions, get the run down on what the landmarks are and recognizing them, what the important people look like, what wildlife is and isn't edible, avoid a plant that looks like this although it can be used to make a good poison, and so forth. Seems like the old idea would work pretty well for this fanon as a whole.

Silver Harp Mockup sketch (LINK)

Best part of all is sketches like these are not the most taxing thing in the world. I can do it anywhere, not just at the computer like the more intensive illustrations take. Some of this style of in-realm sketching will be finding it's way to the FR mods for Total War and Civ as well so I'm already going to be covering a lot of ground in the realms. So yea, I can provide our fanon with art - but because it's free art, don't hold my feet to the proverbial fire or deadlines. If I see an article I like, I'll give it an illustration at my own convenience. And for those who have helped me with EE, then I already owe you a few for when you get articles up.
Zeromaru X Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 02:07:55
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is from Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, but obviously, it is hopelessly out of date by 1500 DR.



There is no much lore about Candlekeep in 4e (beyond that they got some books from Laerakond/Returned Abeir), but the ranks you mentioned are the same.

And I guess the info in the SCAG match those in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast... maybe too exactly...

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