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 Power/Worship of Gods pre Time of Troubles

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
KanzenAU Posted - 09 Jul 2017 : 14:28:06
I'd like to preface this by saying I haven't yet read the Avatar series. I'll get there eventually, I'm working on it. Lots to read. However, I have bought them and scraped some quotes from them here and there.

Near the end of Waterdeep, Ao basically says "now the gods are reliant on mortals". Talos straight out states that that seems crazy. The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

So how did divine power on Toril work before the Time of Troubles then? Did the faith of mortals just flow to all the gods equally, so they didn't have to worry about how big their churches were? If it flowed to them all equally, why would they even get into fights about things?

I've tried searching around and found naught on this. As far as I can tell, all mortal worship flowed to the gods equally. The gods then tried to hurt each other so they could grab bits of divinity from each other. The only reason they interacted with mortals was to get them to hurt other deities somehow, so they could rip off some of their divine spark.

A bit lost, help?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
see Posted - 15 Jul 2017 : 06:29:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Moander didn't exist in Realmslore until introduced in 2E (Azure Bonds, etc)

Hmm? To quote the Old Gray Box, Cyclopedia of the Realms, p.17.

"Moander, a dark and forgotten god of the Realms, whose main temple was in what is now ruined Yulash, and whose faith died years before the erection of the Standing Stone and the coming of the Dalesmen. His/Her/Its symbol was an open palm with a mouth set in its center."
Ayrik Posted - 15 Jul 2017 : 01:41:24
Moander didn't exist in Realmslore until introduced in 2E (Azure Bonds, etc), where it was (retroactively) asserted that Moander was once a Realms deity of great power. Later 2E Realmslore (Arcane Ages, Faiths & Avatars, etc) described Moander's "1E" and "pre-1E" status as one of the most ancient Greater Powers in the Realms. Moander's pre-2E "history" in the Realms was then expanded from 3E onward, lol.

But Moander circa 2E was a weak deity, recently reawakened from dormancy or retrieved from exile or whatever - his faith in the Realms (prior to the ToT and thus 2E) had apparently been almost entirely eradicated, his reappearance in the Realms (in Azure Bonds) depended on the last (infected) "Survivors" of a Cult of Moander. It seems that Moander's stature as a god was intimately tied to the strength of his followers prior to Ao's proclamation at the birth of 2E ... and I speculate that perhaps Ao's 2E rules may have changed conditions enough that the last vestige of Moander's living faith on the Realms could restore his divine stature. Why else should Moander have languished so long while his faithful continued to diminish?
sleyvas Posted - 15 Jul 2017 : 00:16:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Considering that we do have pre-ToT, canon references to deities dwindling from a lack of worship, I would say that worship was always a factor in their power level -- but that it wasn't the only factor. Maybe areas of influence, or number of temples, or some other factors were also a part of their overall strength, and Ao's decree changed things so that it was purely driven by worship and nothing else.



Yeah, if we were to equate temples and other material aspects to somehow working along with my battery concept of before... Ao essentially may have made it that a temple can't "store" worship energy for the god to draw from. So, the god has to take it in in that moment, and any excess is lost.... which would also encourage gods not to waste excess and instead use it to smack each other.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 22:05:58
I would agree with Wooly, especially because, as I said before, many of the gods existed before their followers, which means they didn't need worship to sustain them. However, perhaps by some unknown decree, having worshipers helped with their power, so even though it takes power to create followers (like a race), it paid off in the end because worship gained them more power (like an investment).
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 21:29:11
Considering that we do have pre-ToT, canon references to deities dwindling from a lack of worship, I would say that worship was always a factor in their power level -- but that it wasn't the only factor. Maybe areas of influence, or number of temples, or some other factors were also a part of their overall strength, and Ao's decree changed things so that it was purely driven by worship and nothing else.
TBeholder Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 21:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

So how did divine power on Toril work before the Time of Troubles then?

Without relying on mortals.
For how much of local presence they can maintain, anyway.
Which isn't the same as total power they have: e.g. Elemental Lords are Greater powers, but on a given Prime world may act as effectively Lesser, simply because they don't bother to shoulder their way in and look after their followers.
That may experience long-term changes - dry up from overexerting or grow from collecting petitioners and absorbing them in the domain.
And may be more important, as it should matter more in direct conflicts and in exactly how far the given god is from becoming a weird floaty thing in Astral.
And even if locally the deity never adds spheres of control to the portfolio nor grows in effective status, extra power may well be invested to expand into other worlds, which may also greatly increase overall survivability.
Either way, since some "foreign" gods (such as those from Finnish pantheon) and Elemental Lords had a choice to try and expand their influence on Abeir-Toril/Realmspace or skip the opportunity and go somewhere else, there must have been enough of cookies for them in some or other form to be worth whatever deal Ao had with them - and with strings THAT thick attached.
quote:
Did the faith of mortals just flow to all the gods equally, so they didn't have to worry about how big their churches were? If it flowed to them all equally, why would they even get into fights about things?

Presumably, based on number and perceived importance of items on the portfolios they have.
As to the conflicts - it would make sense if they need some minimum of worship to count as still having the "chair" at all, rather than see it handed to another.
And obviously, they may simply have incompatible goals, as in "promote X" vs. "promote Y".
Irennan Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 05:37:06
Eilistraee goes far beyond dancing under the moon, tho (and I guess that a lot of goddesses would like that). Even tho she welcomes any race, she's all about her people (which is also why she chose to take their appearance, exile, etc... she basically chose to be one of them, rather than stayinh in Arvandor and becoming a goddess of beauty and/or leisure among the elves. That's why IMO it's not easy to associate her--or other drow gods--with other pantheons. She's too actively dedicated to the drow). Her focus on spreading joy and creativity also puts her closer to Lliira than Mielikki IMO.
Markustay Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 05:14:22
One question...

WHY would Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have become drow? They were gods - I see no reason for them to look like drow, only Dark Elves. If they appear as drow, they are choosing to do so, nothing more.

Doesn't Mielikki also like to dance under the moonlight in forest glades?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 05:05:02
Lol I know it's true, that's why I said "it is" (I was responding to Markustay about her being around before the Descent. I think I was typing when you posted). I phrased the last part as a question as a further response, but I probably shouldn't have, since I already knew that lol.
Irennan Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 04:45:48
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Didn't Zandilar eventually merge with Bast (later known as Sharess)?

It's been a long time since I read EVERMEET, but weren't Araunshnee, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun all described as having black skin? Also, it is true Eilistraee chose self-banishment before the Descent, but didn't she do it because she sensed there would come a time when the dark elves would need someone to guide them?



Zandilar nearly died giving birth to Selvetarm, then Bast kinda saved her by merging with her, forming Sharess.

Yes, they were described like that, but that probably was an oversight. And yes, it is true.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 04:38:58
Didn't Zandilar eventually merge with Bast (later known as Sharess)?

It's been a long time since I read EVERMEET, but weren't Araunshnee, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun all described as having black skin? Also, it is true Eilistraee chose self-banishment before the Descent, but didn't she do it because she sensed there would come a time when the dark elves would need someone to guide them?
Irennan Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 04:31:55
I'd exclude the Eilistraee=Artemis analogy, because of how different they are (see Ed's comment above; Eilistraee isn't meant to represent that deadly beauty: she can be, but she's more loving and nurturing than that). I don't see much overlap with Mielikki either--they both love nature, but that's it. The only human deity that shares quite a bit with Eilistraee is Lliira.

According to Elaine's novel, Eilistraee was herself even before she chose to wander on Toril, where the sylvan/green/dark elves were headed; same for Vhaeraun. Zandilar asked Vhaeraun's help well after the descent, when both siblings had become drow, and when they were alredy not on good terms, so I'd safely exclude incest from the picture, lol (even more so because Eilistraee came to know about Selvetarm only later, and took care of him, trying to lead him on a brighter path).
Markustay Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 03:54:51
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

IIRC, the humans who worship Eilistraee (there are quite a bit of them) just call her Eilistraee (or any of her normal titles). Although I agree that she wouldn't make a good Aphrodite. Her beauty has indeed been described as "the answer to that question which every soul felt, but no words could frame", but her personality just doesn't fit the archetype. Nor would Sharindlar, who's more about fertility than passion.
Okay, it was actually Mielikki who has an alias amongst the elves - Khalreshaar.

For some reason I always get Mielikki and Eilistraee mixed up. Well, not so much 'mixed up', as that I think they could possibly be the same person (and maybe Artemis from the Greek - they represent this 'lady huntress/primal goddess of the forests', both beautiful and deadly).

And if we look at that name - Khalreshaar, that name hidden in there works as a suffix or prefix denoting 'dark in nature' in a lot of Realmslore. And Ed told me (in his thread here awhile back) that Shar and 'The Shaar' do have a connection. So maybe it comes full-circle and Artemis is Mielikki (and Ki - who is a goddess in TWO other RW pantheons), and is also Eilistraee, and the poor elves of Evermeet don't even realize they are worshiping Eilistraee because they think Khaleshaar is Mielikki (which she is... but she could be so much more).

Although I actually picture Zandilar being a more ancient, primal aspect of Eilistraee, and she had worshipers among the original Green (Sylvan) elves who's arrival predates the High (Gold & Silver) Elves. Because of you think about it, why would any of the dark Elven pantheon appear as Drow, unless they wanted to? According to Elaine's Evermeet novel, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were around before the descent (as was Lolth, of course). Their skin would be dark brown, not Ebony. In other words, they would look just like sylvan elves (as Zandilar would, if she were still around).

Of course, now that I am thinking about it... that means Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...

Too much 'Game of Thrones' maybe.


EDIT:
On the other hand, Selvetarm was a bit 'special'....
Zeromaru X Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 02:28:43
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

The DMG mentions both? I don't actually have this sourcebook yet. Wasn't FR the "default" setting now?

Maybe it was their way of trying to combine the two cosmologies lol,



quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Wasn't the world tree mention only to give an example of how mrtals' understanding of the plane varies?



The 5e DMG mentions the 3 "most commonly known" cosmological models:

-The Great Wheel (2.0)*, that is teh default for 5e
-The World Tree (it mentions both, Nordic Yggdrasil and the FR version)
-The World Axis (yeah, the 4e one)

It also gives advise about other cosmological models as well, but without the emphasis of those 3.

The DMG also says that none of those models is truer than the others, and that, as Irennan says, all of them (even the Great Wheel) are what mortals believe the planes are organized. In the true sense of planar cosmology, we mortals cannot (and never will) understand the true nature of the planes.

As for the "default setting", according to devs is "the D&D multiverse", though they only release products focused in the Sword Coast.

*EDIT:

I like to think that the Great Wheel 2.0 is like a revision of the original one. Like if the sages of Sigil saw the canon cosmology nowadays and said: "What are those new planes we don't have registered yet?", and had to update their cosmological model.
see Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 23:27:35
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Near the end of Waterdeep, Ao basically says "now the gods are reliant on mortals". Talos straight out states that that seems crazy. The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

So how did divine power on Toril work before the Time of Troubles then?

The exact same way.

The first mention of FR deities having their power dependent on worship was in "Down-to-earth Divinity" in Dragon #54 (October 1981), where Ed Greenwood wrote:
quote:
This follows the notion that gods possess power relative to the worship they receive, but I have deliberately left this idea vague and undeveloped, for players would love to learn such mechanisms in order to influence the relative power of gods for their own ends, and that type of manipulation upsets the balance of a campaign very quickly.

The original 1987 Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, in the Cyclopedia of the Realms book, p.10, also said, "The 'gods' of the Realms, also called Powers . . . grow or diminish in personal power in relation to the number of mortal worshippers they possess."

And, of course, the 1980 Deities & Demigods, p.8, established as the AD&D default, "However, it is true that a god's power often increases and decreases as the number of his worshipers varies."

So, at the end of the Avatar Crisis, Ao got up on Mount Waterdeep, and announced to the gods that from now on, they'd have to follow the very same rules for power that they always did in FR canon. Followed by the gods objecting as if it were something new.
Irennan Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 22:19:33
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I stand corrected lol. That's an interesting tidbit of info, but was said before I joined the Keep lol, so no wonder I haven't seen it before.



IIRC, I joined about a year before you, but I stumbled upon that link in another conversation, either here or on the WotC forums, I can't remember.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 22:17:06
I stand corrected lol. That's an interesting tidbit of info, but was said before I joined the Keep lol, so no wonder I haven't seen it before.
Irennan Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 22:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

If we're using Greek gods, if anything, I think Eilistraee is most like Artemis. That's actually who she kind of reminds me of.




Ed has actually specifically said that the two of them couldn't be more different. And I agree: aside from being skilled with the bow and associated with the moon, Eilistraee has a completely different personality and outlook from Artemis. Her being joyful despite all, and wanting to celebrate and create beauty everywhere she goes, her having nothing to do with chastity and instead being intended as a goddess of fertility (to help the drow flourish again), and more. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=27#129882

EDIT: On a side note, the answer as a whole and the one above are very interesting reads about what inspired Ed for various characters or places.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 21:46:02
If we're using Greek gods, if anything, I think Eilistraee is most like Artemis. That's actually who she kind of reminds me of.
Irennan Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 20:42:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, its kind of hard to describe how I am picturing it (and I can't even picture it - its in at least 4 dimensional space), but I think CorellonsDevout has the right of it.

Its not really so much as 'the same place' as we would think of it in our three-dimensional world. Think of it like how the ethereal, prime, and astral (not to mention the Feywild & Shadowfell) all overlap. They occupy the same 'space' in 3D terms, but not in 4D terms (and I am not even getting into the concept of 11-dimensional space, some of which I am not sure even deities can access to any great degree). So basically, they can 'phase in & out' of each other Realms, since they are all the same Realm on some levels (but different on most others)*. Perhaps the Pool of Evergold is the common factor in all their realms (which works well, since I think all those 'Pools of..." in Realmslore/D&D are conduits for both energy and matter-transference). Basically, to our (mortal) way of thinking, its like that pool is in a single 'room' in all their realms. Its the 'commonality point'.

99.9% of this DOES NOT MATTER in-game, from a D&D character perspective, all these Gods really are different Gods (and on most levels that is true), and these 'Divine Realms' are separate Realms (and once again, for the most part - to a mortal perspective - that is true). This sort of conjecture only starts to matter when we enter the 'Overgod Tier' (and higher), which is more of a thought-exercise so some of us can figure out the mechanisms behind the cosmology (really only good for writers, designers, and some DMs with too much time on their hands). It should never actually 'come into play', not even in a novel (maybe just some subtle hints to the effect that "all is not what it seems").


No, no, it's quite easy to visualize, if you "project" it on a 3D space. A very simple but telling example would be 2 solids sharing a common surface, but occupying different volumes (like 2 cones that share the same base, but whose tips point in opposite directions). The shared base would be the "archetype" you were talking about, from which the various aspects and their realms emerge.

quote:
And from what I recall, Eilistraee already has an alias among human worshipers. I don't think she would make a good Sune/Aphrodite/Hanali. For the most part, the idea that 'this god is really this other god' should apply almost exclusively to Greater Gods. At intermediate and lower tiers they should just be normal aliases that mortals would even know about.


IIRC, the humans who worship Eilistraee (there are quite a bit of them) just call her Eilistraee (or any of her normal titles). Although I agree that she wouldn't make a good Aphrodite. Her beauty has indeed been described as "the answer to that question which every soul felt, but no words could frame", but her personality just doesn't fit the archetype. Nor would Sharindlar, who's more about fertility than passion.

In general, I'm not a fan of deities being actually other deities, and the 4e version of it brought a lot of lore problems with it. However, the concept itself does make some sense in the larger scheme of the Multiverse. If I had to use that concept, I'd leave lesser deities out of it too, because they tend to be local powers and more closely tied to their worlds and/or people.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 19:43:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...



Matryoshka, or Russian nesting dolls. The obvious inspiration for The Living Doll, a minor character in the animated version of The Tick. "I'm full of tinier men!"



Lol thank you.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 19:42:28
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...



Matryoshka, or Russian nesting dolls. The obvious inspiration for The Living Doll, a minor character in the animated version of The Tick. "I'm full of tinier men!"
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 19:26:13
Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...
Markustay Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 18:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Then you'd need to have deities like Eilistraee and Sharindlar (sp) there too (drow and dwarven deities of beauty). Although those two are pretty close to each other in the Great Wheel, having both their Realms within Nidaveliir, in Ysgard (after the whole ordeal at the end of 3e, in 5e/post-Sundering Eilistraee might have her realm fully in Arborea->Arvandor, tho, which would put her close to Hanali and Sune).

Going back to check F&A, my impression is that Sune and Hanali have a shared part of their Realms, but it's not ike their whole Realms overlap.

Your idea does make sense, tho, and I guess that the World Tree was WotC's attempt at organzing deities in a similar way.


And...

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I thought that pre-4e, Hanali was in Arvandor and Sune was in Brightwater. However, I think portals connected the Realms, so the two gods had access to one another, if you will, and, according to DD, they share the waters of Evergold. But DD also states that Hanali's realm is in Arvandor.

With good-aligned deities, I would think most are sympathetic to their petitioners (Helm and Tyr may be a bit more rigid), but most would want to give their petitioners a good afterlife. And Sune and Hanali being allies, I could see them either giving the soul a choice, or not bemoaning Kelemvor's choice if he deems the soul belongs with Hanali instead of Sune, or vice versa.


Okay, its kind of hard to describe how I am picturing it (and I can't even picture it - its in at least 4 dimensional space), but I think CorellonsDevout has the right of it.

Its not really so much as 'the same place' as we would think of it in our three-dimensional world. Think of it like how the ethereal, prime, and astral (not to mention the Feywild & Shadowfell) all overlap. They occupy the same 'space' in 3D terms, but not in 4D terms (and I am not even getting into the concept of 11-dimensional space, some of which I am not sure even deities can access to any great degree). So basically, they can 'phase in & out' of each other Realms, since they are all the same Realm on some levels (but different on most others)*. Perhaps the Pool of Evergold is the common factor in all their realms (which works well, since I think all those 'Pools of..." in Realmslore/D&D are conduits for both energy and matter-transference). Basically, to our (mortal) way of thinking, its like that pool is in a single 'room' in all their realms. Its the 'commonality point'.

99.9% of this DOES NOT MATTER in-game, from a D&D character perspective, all these Gods really are different Gods (and on most levels that is true), and these 'Divine Realms' are separate Realms (and once again, for the most part - to a mortal perspective - that is true). This sort of conjecture only starts to matter when we enter the 'Overgod Tier' (and higher), which is more of a thought-exercise so some of us can figure out the mechanisms behind the cosmology (really only good for writers, designers, and some DMs with too much time on their hands). It should never actually 'come into play', not even in a novel (maybe just some subtle hints to the effect that "all is not what it seems").

And from what I recall, Eilistraee already has an alias among human worshipers. I don't think she would make a good Sune/Aphrodite/Hanali. For the most part, the idea that 'this god is really this other god' should apply almost exclusively to Greater Gods. At intermediate and lower tiers they should just be normal aliases that mortals would even know about.


*EDIT:
Only just getting to read some of the other posts that came after - its like what Wooly says abut 'layers'. Lots and lots (infinite?) of layers can fit in just one Plane (and a Dimension isn't the same as a Plane, precisely*). For example, the Material Plane is really a Dimension, composed of five major planes - The Prime, and the four elemental planes. And layers fit within planes (think of them as different 'bandwidths' along a certain spectrum), quasi and demi (& 'pocket') planes are created between the major planes (so not 'layers'). Quasi's may actually go between Dimensions, now that I think about it.

Ravenloft ('The Domains of Dread') may have started out as a demi-plane, but it has been 'eaten' by the Shadowfell, and is now probably a 'layer' within that plane (perhaps something similar happened to Faerie, the original homeland of The Fey, with the Feywild... which became named after them retroactively).


*LOL - a footnote within a footnote...
Now that I think about even more, 'Planes' would be layers within Dimensions. So basically everything is a header for a sub-group below it. Dimensions would then be layers within a universe, and Universes are layers within a Multiverse (and Multiverses are the layers within the Omniverse... but now my head is starting to hurt).

I am having a 'Rick & Morty' moment.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 18:36:03
I agree, which is why I suggested they could be combined.
Irennan Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 17:46:39
Divine domains were subplanes within the outer planes in the Great Wheel 2.0, so I'm assuming that the World Tree planes also became subplanes in the Great Wheel 2.0, as Wooly said.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 17:07:10
I've always thought the Tree and Wheel could be combined, too.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 15:46:50
I've suggested in the past that the planes accessible from the Great Tree are simply domains on or layers of planes on the Great Wheel. It doesn't affect deity homes being retconned from one place to another, but it provides a plausible explanation for how both the Wheel and the Tree could be correct.

I've also stated that I don't think the planes of the Wheel are actually in a wheel -- by definition, they can't be. If planes are infinite, then they cannot be constrained in any one shape. However, the Wheel concept comes from how the planes are accessed from the Outlands, where the gate towns leading to the major planes are laid out in a circle.

This approach also allows for the inclusion of oddball planes. There can be any number of them out there; but they don't have gate towns and thus aren't considered to lie on the Wheel.

The other Wheel 2.0 planes are a bit more problematic to fit into the Great Wheel... I prefer to think of the Feywild as a kind of lesser Faerie, "closer" to the Prime of the Realms than Faerie is; maybe it's the first layer of Faerie. Ditto for the Shadowfell -- it's the closest part of the plane of Shadow. As for the Elemental Chaos, it strikes me as what you'd get if the elemental planes touched Limbo directly -- so again, the Chaos is just "closer" to the Realms than the elemental planes.

I should also note that I have decided that Earth, Toril, Krynn, Oerth, etc, are all just layers of one Prime Material Plane. Since each of the major settings has slightly different rules, it's hard to say they're on one plane. So then you have either a whole bunch of Primes that all touch the same set of planes -- or you use the existing planar ideas and go with the idea of layers.

At least, that's my thinking on planar matters. I've got all the Planescape material (save for the Sketchbook), but I've only read a small part of it, so I'm hardly an expert. I just go with what I know and try to figure out how everything can be mashed together into one thing.

Personally, I'd prefer to just stick with the original Great Wheel, and ignore the Tree and those odd 2.0 planes... But since my preference is not universal, I've pondered how to incorporate both the old planar lore and the new.
Irennan Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 15:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

To be honest, I think the truth is that we just don't know. The Great Wheel 2.0 is the best guess, but there is no official word. Recent texts show links to both planes of the Great Wheel (eg. Mechanus) and planes of the World Tree (eg. Dwarfhome). But these links are usually portrayed from a mortal level - we just don't know. Even the 5e DMG talks mainly about the Great Wheel, while also mentioning the World Tree of the Forgotten Realms. I think we'll have to wait until a product with planar travel before we know the truth - though I still think Great Wheel 2.0 is the best bet.



Wasn't the world tree mention only to give an example of how mrtals' understanding of the plane varies?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 15:24:35
The DMG mentions both? I don't actually have this sourcebook yet. Wasn't FR the "default" setting now?

Maybe it was their way of trying to combine the two cosmologies lol,

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