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 The Tomb of Annihilation is a Tomb for 9 lost Gods

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Gyor Posted - 18 Jun 2017 : 14:28:42
One is called Moa and is liked to snakes or Coutls, LG, and another Wongo linked to monkeys and is CE.

Mod edit: Corrected typo in Subject, so this discussion could be more readily found on a search.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
JamesLowder Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 23:23:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

When I saw Jim Lowder and Ed Greenwood (both for the first time) back at Gencon 2012, at the Candlekeep meet-up, the only person in the room that could draw attention away from Ed when he spoke was James. When Ed speaks (anywhere, at every event I attended), you can just see people hanging on his every word. The level of eager apprehension and adulation was palpable. Its not an 'FR fanboi' thing - thats just Raw Ed. He has that certain way about him that commands your attention, and leaves you wanting more (like a bard out of some epic).

And yet, when the two of them spoke, they had a chemistry - almost a 'synergy' - and it was electrifying. Me saying Jim was able to pull some of the 'glow' away from Ed is truly saying something about Mr. Lowder - its pretty much the nicest thing I can possibly say about anyone. And seeing someone like Eric Boyd sitting there quietly, equally enraptured, well... that was just some added ambrosia on my small slice of heaven.

So yeah, if you happen to swing back by here, James Lowder, "So long, and thanks for all the fish."



Yes, if you get the chance to experience Ed's events at Gen Con or another show, don't miss it.

Thanks for the kind words. I absolutely get how weighty that praise is.

I think the world of Ed and have enjoyed working with him from the start. He was the first author I had any interaction with, in my earliest days as an editor at TSR. Mary Kirchoff, my boss at the time and a fine editor and writer in her own right, had me make one of the shorter editorial calls to Ed during the Spellfire copyedit, while she monitored the interaction. I can see now how it was a baptism by fire. The call started off predictable enough, but then saw Ed staging an impromptu test of my knowledge of Middle English. Fortunately, I'd done petty well in my Chaucer class in grad school.

Any chemistry Ed and I have in those public events is a reflection of genuine respect and affection. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have worked with Ed, Bob Salvatore, Jeff Grubb, Elaine Cunningham, Karen Boomgarden, Doug Niles, Troy Denning, all the people involved in the early Realms fiction and games...it's a long list. I continue to work with many of those talented people whenever I can. And getting together with them at places like Gen Con is a joy.
JamesLowder Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 22:53:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Side note, but in case you look back in on this thread James - thanks for your old work from when I was young. Unlike most of the others I never got the chance to meet you back then and tell you I enjoyed your work for years.



Thanks very much for the kind words and for taking the time to let me know you've enjoyed my work. If you ever get to Gen Con, I'm fairly easy to track down.
Markustay Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 22:25:44
When I saw Jim Lowder and Ed Greenwood (both for the first time) back at Gencon 2012, at the Candlekeep meet-up, the only person in the room that could draw attention away from Ed when he spoke was James. When Ed speaks (anywhere, at every event I attended), you can just see people hanging on his every word. The level of eager apprehension and adulation was palpable. Its not an 'FR fanboi' thing - thats just Raw Ed. He has that certain way about him that commands your attention, and leaves you wanting more (like a bard out of some epic).

And yet, when the two of them spoke, they had a chemistry - almost a 'synergy' - and it was electrifying. Me saying Jim was able to pull some of the 'glow' away from Ed is truly saying something about Mr. Lowder - its pretty much the nicest thing I can possibly say about anyone. And seeing someone like Eric Boyd sitting there quietly, equally enraptured, well... that was just some added ambrosia on my small slice of heaven.

So yeah, if you happen to swing back by here, James Lowder, "So long, and thanks for all the fish."
The Masked Mage Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 20:55:35
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Several people here who possibly know better than I think that the problems in the names and such would not be there if Mr. Lowder had been consulted.
My first instinct is to say a novel with talking Wombats isn't a far cry from the names that have been looked down on, but I could be wrong?



I read over the draft of Tomb and provided input on the continuity for characters and setting material I created for The Ring of Winter and Jungles of Chult. WotC was under no obligation to follow my comments, so I won't know what happened with those until the book comes out.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, the version I saw was respectful of the material I created, so the lobster men and the ptera-men show up, for example. (I am only revealing this because they are included in the minis that have been announced.) Any material on new gods was outside my review purview.

All best,
Jim Lowder



Side note, but in case you look back in on this thread James - thanks for your old work from when I was young. Unlike most of the others I never got the chance to meet you back then and tell you I enjoyed your work for years.
Markustay Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:34:34
What, no giant hamsters? (Vole)

So I am surfing the Interwebz this morning, trying to find out something (ANYTHING!) about some big-arse island off the coast of Xendrik, and I come across this on some forum -
quote:
"My other idea was to revert Chult back to it's origins of an island and replace Kapaerian Island..."


Chult's original form as an ISLAND? {sigh}
These folks who started playing D&D in 4e are SO misguided.

The reason why I posted this HERE is because the guy is trying to convert Tomb of Annihilation to Xendrik (pretty much the exact opposite of what I am doing).

So you think OUR Chult is an island, do you EB-boy? Well, just for that, I am going to take all the things!

JamesLowder Posted - 22 Aug 2017 : 05:18:42
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Several people here who possibly know better than I think that the problems in the names and such would not be there if Mr. Lowder had been consulted.
My first instinct is to say a novel with talking Wombats isn't a far cry from the names that have been looked down on, but I could be wrong?



I read over the draft of Tomb and provided input on the continuity for characters and setting material I created for The Ring of Winter and Jungles of Chult. WotC was under no obligation to follow my comments, so I won't know what happened with those until the book comes out.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, the version I saw was respectful of the material I created, so the lobster men and the ptera-men show up, for example. (I am only revealing this because they are included in the minis that have been announced.) Any material on new gods was outside my review purview.

All best,
Jim Lowder
Markustay Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 14:59:48
I was actually picturing Kay from MiB: "We at the bureau do not have a sense of humor that we are aware of".
KanzenAU Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 06:35:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gods from various interloper pantheons that found out the hard way that Ao does NOT have a sense of humor.


I know we're not supposed to post short thumbs-up type posts, but this was a rare occasion where something on this forum made me laugh out loud. What an image!
Markustay Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 06:30:33
Gods from various interloper pantheons that found out the hard way that Ao does NOT have a sense of humor.
Gyor Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 01:25:31
Thoughts (speculation on the possible origins of the 9 trickster Gods) Gods that died during the Dawn War, former parts of world serepent that died (unlikely), Katashaka Gods that come with the tabaxi, but did not survive the Tabaxi's conversion to Ubatao Worship.
Gyor Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 01:22:22
I read Dragon+ 14 and found out some more stuff. Chris came up with the idea of a tomb of dead Gods, but the idea for 9 trickster Gods based on Aiighment was Pendleton Ward's idea, so if you don't like it, you know who to blame.

It's actually an interesting article and their a separate piece of fiction that is meant to act as a lead into Tomb of Anniliation and it's actually really interesting, although it feels like just the first part of a larger story, very strange, but also really cool, I won't provide spoilers.
Markustay Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 19:38:53
Well, if we use what I put forth (either in this thread or another recently), and there are little bits of 'Pure Evil' (CHAOS) that have snuck into the Universe (from the Far Realms), and some of the 'Elder Gods' had gotten themselves corrupted (likely by trying to actually access and control that power... which they couldn't), then perhaps Pandorym was one of these 'Ancient Gods' (Elder Evils) that got corrupted, and when he was separated into components (that just sounds weird), the 'Entropy' component was actually that little bit of Pure Evil he swallowed so long ago (not that removing it would make him sane again, but it would mean the possibility to 'cure' him would exist... same for any other god that had such a piece removed {*cough* Shar *cough*}).

And this means that there could be several 'Entropies' about. Maybe tiny chips become Spheres of Annihilation (self-'motivated' ones, like the Blackball from OD&D).
sleyvas Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 11:11:17
By the way, if anyone from WotC likes the above idea.... I do freely say PLEASE FEEL FREE TO USE IT. I put forth ideas like this to see the world change for the better.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 10:58:44
Yep, there are those who don't believe that Pandorym and Entropy are separate, but let's face it.... Pandorym was separated into components, and one of those components is "a giant sphere of annihilation that even gods can't control".... and Entropy is called "the god swallower".... sounds EXACTLY like Entropy to me.

So, playing with the idea for a second... what if Entropy was one of the Primordials summoned by the Batrachi in the first sundering (there was also Asgorath/Asgoroth and others). What if then Ao created Abeir to entrap Pandorym aka Entropy .... by splitting it into two entities and putting one piece in Abeir, and the other in Toril. He then puts a Godwall up around Abeir to prevent deities going there. Then along come the snooping Imaskari, and they start uncovering extradimensional spaces and portals... and then Abeir... The Imaskari then perform some ritual that basically extends or moves the "godwall" from being just around Abeir, to now being around the entire crystal sphere (and maybe such an action could only be completed by mortal consent by the decree of even Ao's masters).

So, now Ao has tight control over what gods can come and go based upon his construction... and he's digging it... but then he sees some Imaskari who find out where the other half of Pandorym is in Abeir. He sees the wheels being set in motion which could destroy the crystal sphere. So... he reaches out to the gods of the Mulan people, tells them about their people, and offers to let them come in and take out the Imaskari. The Imaskari who had been studying the half of Pandorym in Abeir and the half in Faerun realize that the two are related, and use one to call the other.... and for a brief instant the two are combined again and they threaten the Mulan gods who recently arrived (or something similar), but the Imaskari manage to separate the two parts again. This only encourages the Mulan gods, and the Imaskari are struck down.
So, we have both parts of Pandorym stuck on Toril now... a problem only gestating in Ao's view... so he has the Mulan gods literally settle RIGHT NEXT DOOR. Ao wants to separate the two halves again, but he doesn't want to twin Toril AGAIN..... the collision of the two worlds occurs (Ao's work? Natural occurrence? The work of the gods?) and SUDDENLY Pandorym is at full power again destroying Chessenta (as the Maw of Entropy was doing) slowly.... OR was it that Pandorym was reformed and Ao forced the two worlds to collide (which might make more sense). Ao then quickly (in his view) separates the two worlds carefully without destroying them utterly (taking a century).... and he sends a portion of Pandorym back to Abeir (maybe the crystalline portion that was under the Imaskari city... maybe even a large portion of the Plains of Purple Dust is now a transferred piece of Abeir that the High Imaskari are now exploring).
Why transfer the crystalline portion and not the big sphere of annihilation? Well, because one of the other things Ao set in motion an eyeblink before the spellplague was the Karanoks worshipping entropy.... yep, Ao WANTS Entropy to start taking on a divine nature, even if he has to have it force fed to him.... because then entropy can be changed by the viewpoint of its worshippers OR even die like a regular god somehow.

Sound believable? Where's my flaws?


Body: Pandorym’s physical component does not truly exist as a body in the multiverse but is a conduit to the incomprehensible reality of its home. It manifests as a 30-foot-diameter sphere of annihilation (DMG 279), but no being—not even a deity—can control it, even using a talisman of the sphere.
Gyor Posted - 01 Jul 2017 : 03:43:59
 I thought Pandorym and Entropy were separate beings, I'll have to look that up, still given that we known Entropy was a Primordial and was trapped some how in Toril, it makes sense that the ancient Imaskari may have had access to Abeir using their portal/planar magics. Which also suggests that the Imaskari may have had other Abier items of great power, or an Enclave of Imaskar could be in Abeir somehow. Some of those portals may still exist.
sleyvas Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 23:36:23
Oh, and on that idea of Semphar and Murghom having two separate "factions" of dragons (one being metallic the other chromatic).... I'd recommend it not be done along those lines. However, the idea that the "Lung Dragons" of the east not being happy with metallic dragons making a new empire on their border, and maybe the start raising up the spirits of the lands of Kara-Tur to oppose them
sleyvas Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 23:04:46
Maybe there was something to the statement that Ra was the first documented deicide. Its stated in GHotR, but also in Old Empires. I always just wrote that off as "that we know of".... but maybe something Thayd and the Theurgist Adepts actually changed the rules for the divine somehow. Maybe that's even why the Mulan gods were so adamant on ending him. Maybe prior to this, no god had actually killed another, but maybe they'd simply lost worshippers and influence. Maybe even Ao's allowance of the Mulan gods to bypass the godwall ended up making some kind of change that ultimately led to this capability.

OR maybe the "godswall" was the Imaskari somehow pulling away the protection Abeir had preventing gods from going there. Thus, ever since the "godswall" was created "around the crystal sphere" it setup this inevitable impact between Abeir and Toril again. Man, my idea that some gods and/or godly domains were sent to Abeir over the last century just seems to fit even better and better.

Throw in some more in which the Imaskari found Pandorym (aka Entropy) and broke him into separate pieces and imprisoned them. It sounds like they pulled Pandorym from Abeir. Hmmm, maybe even Ao allowed the Mulan gods to come in specifically to stop Pandorym getting loose because Pandorym is something that Ao truly can't control directly for some reason. The fact that Pandorym/Entropy was freed up following the spellplague and started swallowing up souther chessenta also kind of adds some credence to the idea that he's key somehow to the Spellplague.

From Elder Evils

PANDORYM IN FAERÛN
As described in the novel Darkvision, the ancient Imaskaran Empire brought Pandorym to Faerûn to prevent the deities from seeking vengeance for the Imaskari’s genocide. Before they could use their weapon, though, the gods laid low the whole empire. Pandorym remains to this day, its mind entrapped within the Imperial Weapon Cache under the Palace of the Purple Emperor.

"Long ago, a cabal of foolish wizards violated the laws of the multiverse in their search for ever-greater power, discovering spaces “between” the planes that should never have been breached. Their arrogance angered the deities, who jealously coveted this knowledge. To defend themselves (and incidentally, their people), the cabal members sought a weapon with which to threaten the gods. The wizards bent their wills toward a quasireality best described as “perpendicular” to that of the Great Wheel. The dark enticement of the chance to slay deities called to the Material Plane a sentient singularity of scarcely fathomable power and unrelenting destructiveness.

Given the name Pandorym by its summoners, it sought greedily to fulfill the terms of its contract, but was instead imprisoned. Knowing they couldn’t hold Pandorym’s full might with magic—mortal or divine—they cleaved its alien psyche from its body, trapping the former in a crystal prison beneath their city and the latter in a transdimensional space that touches the multiverse at only one point. (Knowledge [history] or [arcana] DC 28)

In their hubris, those who brought Pandorym called on the deities aligned against them, revealing only a hint of their weapon’s unbelievable destructiveness. The wizards believed such a display would force the gods to relent. Instead, the deities struck first. What would stop a single member of that insolent cabal from being consumed by madness and reuniting the halves of Pandorym? Thus, before the cabal could consolidate its position, the gods blotted every trace of it from the world. (DC 32)

Ancient deities who remember that fearful time occasionally speak to their modern clerics of their decision, striking fear into the hearts of their followers. Having wiped out the wizards and their civilization, the gods could not undo what the cabal had achieved. Thus, they were forced to hide away Pandorym in its dual prisons and erase all known records of the thing’s existence. Nevertheless, tales persist of the weapon that kills gods, and they hint at its location. (DC 35)

Despite the seals that hold its mind within the crystalline prison, Pandorym remains conscious and aware of its surroundings. Deathless and bored, it eagerly latches onto the psyche of any sentient creature that wanders too close, attempting to reunite its mind and body. But these mortal pawns are too fragile to endure its control. To its eternal frustration, the crushing power of its mind breaks its servants long before they can perform any helpful action. Until, that
is, very recently. (DC 37)


–1071 DR
The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide.
Gyor Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 22:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, hadn't really thought about it, but the whole Ra and Horus separate aligned with the whole Set is accepted.... makes things harken as if these gods were "rebooted" into an earlier version of the pantheon prior to the orcgate wars. Similiarly with Enlil returning.



Yeah it seems like in some ways Mulhorand got reset way before 1e to the period where their Gods triumphed over the original Imaskar Empire.
sleyvas Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 18:52:22
Hmmm, hadn't really thought about it, but the whole Ra and Horus separate aligned with the whole Set is accepted.... makes things harken as if these gods were "rebooted" into an earlier version of the pantheon prior to the orcgate wars. Similiarly with Enlil returning.
Gyor Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 01:48:30
No everything didn't reset, alot of stuff just took a turn for the nostalgic, like events played out that allowed alot of lost nations and lost Gods were able to return, but not everything from 4e is gone. The two cities of Tymanther have remained, Airspur Capital of Akunul, some lesser cities of the Netherese empire survived, Dambrath is like tribes of humans with lots of Lycanthropy, the Warlock Knights of Vaasa, Dragons still rule Murghom and some other stuff like that 4e Paladin Kingdom is still around.

Other things assumed a more familiar form, but that doesn't mean everything the same. Mulhorand is back, but the Gods are no longer in direct conflict, Ra and Horus are seperate which they haven't been since the Orcgate wars, Set and Sebek are ruling along side the other gods instead of in effective exile.

Calimshan is no longer ruled by Djinn, its ruled by humans again, but it still has Genasi as well.

And so on.

So more complicated then a reset.

A new incarnation of Tchazzar is in Chessenta, ruling one of the cities.

Man I wish they'd do a proper FRCG.

Markustay Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 23:27:08
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Was Tymanther wiped out while I was away? Because "last bastion of Tymanther" sounds like if it doesn't exists anymore (and seeing what they are doing with all that was created in 4e...)

As for Murghôm, in 4e it was a dracocracy (?), and the SCAG implies it still exist as such.



I believe that Markustay is referring to his home brew realms.

Not really - I usually specify when I am doing that.

I explained it above - I was under the impression that 'everything reset', which means nearly all of the 4e (Abeir) stuff 'went home'. I was thinking we could save Tymanther by having them leave their (FR) area and run east, and then have a reason for a 'good dragons vs. bad dragons' paradigm in Semphar & Murghôm.

From what we've seen of Semphar (which, little as it is, is still WAY more than what we've seen of Murghôm), it would probably make more sense if the 'good' dragons - possibly Guamahavi and her children - took over Semphar, possibly to keep it from falling under the rule of the Murghôm dragons (I brought Tchazzar into it as a balancing point, and to create the McGuffin I described above).

I do find it a bit ironic that IF Guamahavi is involved, she IS 'the purple dragon' of the Raurin, and just north of this region we have the city of Kourmira (Tuigan), which is literally named after Cormyr. Seems every time someone builds a place called that, some epic, elder (purple) wyrm shows up and causes problems.
sleyvas Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 20:50:36
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

My theory is more parrell evolution, Nerath happened to evolve with some similarities to Greyhawk and FR, likely because of the influence of deities, and perhaps other mystical forces.

Same with similarities between FR and Greyhawk.

As for Abeir, I find it funny that Erin M. Evans novel made me want to explore Abeir more then anything in 4e did, she managed to catch my curiosity and direct it to that place.



I won't say she sent me there initially, because ever since the 5e announcement that they would be moving some things back, I've been intrigued with "well, what happened while it was there".... but I specifically read her novels to glean whatever bits I could. I loved what she did, especially around the dragonborn. I will also say that I didn't like SOME of what was done (specifically the whole there's no weave in Abeir thing), and I plan on my own work arounds for that (i.e. near a Titan's bones there may still be magic dead areas, but while dweomerheart was "attached to Abeir" it started building a basic weave in that world).
sleyvas Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 20:43:21
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The SCAG makes it clear that slavery has been abolished in Mulhorand, so I'm don't know what your refering too.



Yeah, that's the change as a result of their time under the Imaskari. It was prior to the spellplague that they were a slave loving people.
Gyor Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 19:38:08
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There isn't only the issue of Mulhorandi liking dragonborn, there is also a problem of FR dragonborn liking Mulhorandi. For FR dragonborns slavery is the most evil thing you can do. A tymantheran dragonborn can forgive a dragon (because they can accept that Faerun's dragons aren't Abeir's dragons), but they usually kill a slaver on the spot.

And the Mulhorandi are slavers (regardless if their slavery is "good").



The SCAG actually makes it clear that current Mulhorand are not slavers, good or otherwise.

And the only good slavery is consentual BDSM slavery.

I don't understand where your getting the idea that Mulhorand has slavery still?

As for Mulhorand and Dragonborn, Tymanther was techniquely at war with Mulhorand, because their allies in High Imaskar were at war with Mulhorand, but they we're never a major part of that war, and it basically ended when High Imaskar lost.

I can see Tymanther asking for peace with Mulhorand, they have nothing to gain by continuing warring with Mulhorand when they have a mutual enemy in Unther.
Gyor Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 19:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Was Tymanther wiped out while I was away? Because "last bastion of Tymanther" sounds like if it doesn't exists anymore (and seeing what they are doing with all that was created in 4e...)

As for Murghôm, in 4e it was a dracocracy (?), and the SCAG implies it still exist as such.



I believe that Markustay is referring to his home brew realms.
Gyor Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 19:27:25
Murghôm was a group of city states each ruled by a Dragon, still a human population in 4e and no change in 5e, although it's noted that it's lead to a lot of Dragon sorcerors.
Markustay Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 15:59:40
My non-familiarity with 4e lore is why I wasn't sure which way to spin Murghôm and Semphar, but given their history of animosity, I think it would be best to continue that, even with both being 'ruled by dragons' (which do not have to be actual dragons, as I noted above). If Murghôm is independent, or even under nominal Mulhorandi control (as it was in the past), then it could be the 'ebil one', and Semphar could be said to have the same type of relationship with Shou lung, since that is what it officially had at the end of 2e (and I believe on into 3e) - a vassal-state of Shou. Of course, either way we have problems - its sort of weird to Mulhorand and Shou getting along (but who's to say they still are in 5e?), if their two vassals-states are at war with each other (although it could just be a 'proxy war').

As for Tymanther - I've heard they were gone, but then I heard they weren't. So I figure maybe whatever befell most of them when the world was re-Sundered sent quite a few of them scurrying east (just trying to get all the square pegs to fit into round holes at this point - I'd prefer to bring back what was there before, and move the Tymanther stuff someplace that never really got any attention anyway). Until we get some sources on that region, I would take anything broad-strokes (like whats in the few 5e FR books we have) as 'hearsay', and NOT 'set-in-stone'. They've reset other regions completely to their pre-3e state, even when it made little sense to do so, so I'm not taking anything at face value until I see a specific sourcebook covering the region (and its the perfect time to do some of that reshuffling we've been needing - the Sundering is the PERFECT excuse for it).
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 11:06:16
Was Tymanther wiped out while I was away? Because "last bastion of Tymanther" sounds like if it doesn't exists anymore (and seeing what they are doing with all that was created in 4e...)

As for Murghôm, in 4e it was a dracocracy (?), and the SCAG implies it still exist as such.
Markustay Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 05:47:02
The last post was getting over-long, but I wanted to continue my train of thought, which began to run away with itself.

Murghôm: Last bastion of Tymanther, and home to the center of the Church of Bahamut (Marduk). The capital city would almost be like Vatican City... except with dragonborn. And the Dragonborn would be like paladins to the human population (where's Dragonbait when you need him?) they would use some sort of epic magic (perhaps using some 'relic' of Gaumahavi?) to create new dragonbornm, a'la 3rd edition dragonborn (from humans who are found worthy).

Semphar: Home to a rising 'church of Tiamat' (I'm almost tempted to call her Takhisis at this point), where the humans are slaves in all but name only, and 'forced breeding' programs are done to produce more half-dragons, of all sorts of varieties (various evil dragons with all sorts of races). As in Murghôm, the dragonkin are treated like nobility, but in this nation its with a sinister connotation.

The contested lands between the two countries (and two rivers) would be a constant war-zone. I would like to have some sort of plot-device in place that would force the two to have the Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake) remain 'neutral', and war-free (mostly). Maybe because both want to insure trade continues, to maintain their profitable economies? That might work... dragons ARE greedy...

EDIT:
1435 DR: Guamahavi and Tchazzar (restored) fight an epic battle above the waters of Gbor Nor, destroying nearly all craft upon the waters, and the harbors of over a dozen cities. Both retreat, badly wounded, are not heard from again*. Murghom and Semphar - their economies crippled by the destruction of their trading base - come to an agreement regarding the waters; that although there would be future conflict between the two, it would not be allowed to take place on, in, or above Brightstar lake.

Above is homebrew, of course. Just trying to justify my McGuffin above, using some old lore to do so. I would assume those two would've been the 'big bads' of those two kingdoms, and they would indeed be a good match, power-wise.
*Not sure if we would want them still around or not, so I leave this open-ended (as of the end of 4e). In 5e, one or both may have returned.
Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Jun 2017 : 05:38:36
There isn't only the issue of Mulhorandi liking dragonborn, there is also a problem of FR dragonborn liking Mulhorandi. For FR dragonborns slavery is the most evil thing you can do. A tymantheran dragonborn can forgive a dragon (because they can accept that Faerun's dragons aren't Abeir's dragons), but they usually kill a slaver on the spot.

And the Mulhorandi are slavers (regardless if their slavery is "good").

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