| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seravin |
Posted - 24 May 2017 : 16:48:35
Per Jeff Grubb, the man himself:
"Alias could be still alive in the current year. Dragonbait definitely would be older. Olive would have a host of descendants (but that is headcannon)."
God bless the Facebook group. In my head, her nature made her ageless. |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 23:08:37
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
A new Alias novel would be aces.
This would be awesome sauce. of course, I would go for almost any Realms novel at this point lol. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 May 2017 : 04:19:53
According to the 2E Complete Book of Humanoids: Finhead Saurial Base/Starting Age (in years) is 14+1d12, Middle Age is 50, Old Age is 67, Venerable Age is 100, Maximum Age is 100+1d100.
Dragonbait's introduction to the Realms (in 2E Curse of the Azure Bonds) was 1357DR, so by 1491DR (5E, current date) he'd be 148+1d12 (149-160) years old - assuming, of course, that he avoided being killed "early" by other causes. Venerable and well past the "average" lifespan (of 150 years) for his species. Definitely past his prime and unfit for the hardships of adventure.
Alias life was infused by half of Dragonbait's soul, she "inherited" some of Dragonbait's intrinsic characteristics, and they share a supernatural kinship.
I wonder if Dragonbait grows old and weary, and if the years on his soul are mirrored in Alias?
Or if Alias was indeed constructed to be immortal/ageless (or to at least vastly exceed normal human lifespan), and if Dragonbait is kept younger through their mystical link?
I note that Finder, last described as a demipower, takes a special interest in "protecting" Alias (and Dragonbait). |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 22:49:45
Oh, gawd, I'd love a new Alias novel too! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 15:56:06
As for the "why a lich?" question - one I have asked myself MANY times, the only good answers I come come up with are #1) The phylactory. If someone 'kills' you, you get a reset, as many times as you like, unless they also destroy the phylactory. That would actually be an extremely powerful motivator for someone who wanted to 'live' forever. Clones and longevity potions don't really help with knives in the back, or a rival archmage ramming a fireball down your throat.
And #2) (and this one is a bit more subtle) They just don't care. They have gotten to the point in power where 'mere mortals' are just that - vermin. They interact with them when necessary, but no longer give a damn about 'interpersonal relationships'. What better way to keep folks from knocking on your door than by becoming something that would scare them off (literally)? Come to think of it, that could be a good solution for me to handle those pesky Jehovah Witnesses... 
Even the rare few 'good' (neutral?) liches around had gotten to that point - normal, average living people no longer matter to them - sticking around forever became paramount, and interacting with others a non-necessity (think Baelnorn). You would definitely have to let go of any vanity you had (in regards to your personal appearance) - perhaps, once again, the shear magnitude of 'personal power' allowed for enough cerebral vanity that 'the flesh' simply did not matter.
And I tried to 'bring back' some of that magitech artificial limbs flavor in my Elven Netbook articles on the Drow. It makes loads of sense for drow to be heavily vested in that, much more so than surface elves would. You see, Lloth isn't exactly the kind of God(dess) that focuses is on 'healing' magic. They might have some basic stuff all priests have, but the greater healing magics - like regrowing limbs - might be beyond the scope of her clergy. She's more about 'harm' than healing (in earlier editions evil priests could only do the reverse forms of healing spells). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 14:59:39
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, remind me again the piece that links Alias to immortality then (being serious here, not facetious). My memory is that her purpose was to create a being who was living but had never been born? That doesn't scream a need to make it immortal. I'd have no problem with "extraordinary longevity", its the agelessness that I'd wonder about (again, literally wonder). That being said, I'm looking at the wiki for Alias, and it does say something about "Cassana created Alias' body, made in her own image, while Zrie Prakis made it immortal". It also states the involvement of Moander to "provide the power to bring it to life". I'd take that statement though with a grain of salt, because why wouldn't Zrie Prakis make himself immortal versus making himself a lich (though this is worth exploring... maybe Zrie wanted to create a new body for himself via the cloning process that created Alias?)
It's never stated, as I recall, that Alias was intended to be immortal. However, the bad guys used Finder for his knowledge in building a life-life construct, because he had done it before (interestingly, for the bad guys to know this, they had to have info that the Harpers had gone out of their way to bury -- think on THAT implication!). Not only had Finder made a lifelike construct before, his goal with that construct was to make it immortal. And Flattery was certainly long-lived...
So that's where the immortality angle comes in: Finder had built an immortal, life-like construct before, and was tasked to build another construct. Given Cassana's vanity and the fact Finder already knew how to include immortality, it is logical to assume that Alias -- and by extension, her sisters -- got the same immortality.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, this discussion of larvae versus a demon/devil/daemon itself makes me wonder why a lich can't use the latter to extend themselves. My thoughts go towards the idea that larvae are "unexpended soul potential" which makes them more "nutrient rich"/"malleable" versus a fully formed fiend which is "locked" into its form more.
Going by what Ed said in the past about liches, I'm assuming this was something that TSR originally shied away from, out of their overabundance of caution in regards to the "D&D is evil!" hysteria of the 80's. I had personally pointed out that building a new body -- either a simulacrum or a automaton -- would seem more appealing than staying a rotting body for half of eternity. Ed's response:
quote:
I see nothing at all wrong with your reasoning, Wooly, and although Newt Ewell specifically asked me to add a brief “drow biomech” section to the original (2nd Ed) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, the “official but secret” design directives of the time were to avoid all “android and robot” flavouring in AD&D® because TSR was planning a robot roleplaying game, PROTON FIRE. Longtime DRAGON® readers may recall that it was featured in the back pages of just one issue of the magazine, as a preview; the game was “killed” on the very brink of its release by TSR’s upper management. So, just like de-emphasizing psionics in the Realms because they were to be a cornerstone of Dark Sun®, we were told to avoid mechanical/robotic/android/bionic elements for the AD&D® game. THAT’S why the embrace of undeath rather than the “build your own new body.”
As for the alternative “clone or birth your own new body and then move into it” approach, THAT ran afoul of the internal Code of Ethics, TSR wanting to avoid further trouble with the religious Moral Majority stances of the day. For years - - as various Realms NPCs have aged - - I have flirted and toyed in my Realms fiction with exploring the ethical choices they make about how to prolong life (for those who wish to do so). I plan, editors willing, to do more of that in future fiction.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 13:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ah, I wouldn't go so far as to say immortal. However, I wouldn't have a problem if someone said that their manufactured bodies lack many of the decaying factors of most humans, such that they might live as long as the most ancient elves, etc... They are constructs, but they are also constructs made of flesh and magic, and magic doesn't last forever without slowly going awry. The flesh needs to remain living and they do process food, etc... , unlike a flesh golem which can be simply preserved. They also heal, whereas usually constructs must be repaired. The closest thing to them would be a warforged, which only lasts forever if magically repaired periodically. In theory, if the Alias construct could be periodically "repaired" magically they could live forever (but then so can a human).
But in the end, that would imply she could still be alive right now, which I'm totally fine with.
Alias could be wounded, and could heal, and could be healed by (Dragonbait's) divine magic.
I'm not sure why the Alias automaton/construct would need to be periodic "repairs" to live indefinitely.
Some magic does last "forever". Including most magic items.
Permanency dweomers could dim or flicker/fail after several millennia. Continual light is magically fueled by (and slowly consumes) an item, the dweomer will eventually fail and the item may even crumble to dust, but it can take a great many years (centuries, millennia). Phezult's sleep of ages (cast on living creatures) has a duration of one year per GP value of a gemstone used in the casting.
Clone (and stasis clone) and simulacrum can produce "living" creatures of any apparent age, if that's relevant.
And some magics actually grow in power over the years. Mythals. Mythallars. Moonblades. Red Magic tattoos.
Considering the combined arcane and divine magics available to the group which created Alias, I'm sure things like permanency, clone, and wish would've been used.
I agree with Wooly: a primary purpose in constructing Alias was to achieve immortality, so it makes sense for Alias to enjoy agelessness or extraordinary longevity.
Ok, remind me again the piece that links Alias to immortality then (being serious here, not facetious). My memory is that her purpose was to create a being who was living but had never been born? That doesn't scream a need to make it immortal. I'd have no problem with "extraordinary longevity", its the agelessness that I'd wonder about (again, literally wonder). That being said, I'm looking at the wiki for Alias, and it does say something about "Cassana created Alias' body, made in her own image, while Zrie Prakis made it immortal". It also states the involvement of Moander to "provide the power to bring it to life". I'd take that statement though with a grain of salt, because why wouldn't Zrie Prakis make himself immortal versus making himself a lich (though this is worth exploring... maybe Zrie wanted to create a new body for himself via the cloning process that created Alias?)
On most of those things mentioned above, again they don't last forever, which is what immortality is. Mythals start failing over time. Portals go wonky over time. On the idea of moonblades continually growing stronger, let us not forget that they actually absorb something of the essence of the wielder's "soul" and willingly given... so there's something that could be "fueling" the item to make it last.
When it comes to beings achieving some kind of immortaility, most usually have to fuel it somehow unless they're pure spirit OR a god grants the immortality. For instance, liches (at least in older rules) required larvae and were known for bartering with hags to get them to keep their form. Vampires require blood. Generally golems and similar metallic/stone constructs tend to last longer, but they generally need repairs like warforged, and at least with some they're fueled by having an immortal being in them (because most "pure" elementals don't actually age).
Based on the above... given that Zrie Prakis "made her immortal"... and given he was a lich.... and given that her soul was leeched off someone else... and given that the being that helped create her was a god of rot and decay, so him helping make a being that doesn't rot and decay seems odd... it would make a great plot device if in order to continue to function she would periodically require some kind of spirit essence (like larvae, but not necessarily limited to such) and the use of some ritual to keep her body up. In that case, if someone wanted to call her "immortal" just like a lich is immortal, I'd probably agree.
BTW, this discussion of larvae versus a demon/devil/daemon itself makes me wonder why a lich can't use the latter to extend themselves. My thoughts go towards the idea that larvae are "unexpended soul potential" which makes them more "nutrient rich"/"malleable" versus a fully formed fiend which is "locked" into its form more. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 02:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ah, I wouldn't go so far as to say immortal. However, I wouldn't have a problem if someone said that their manufactured bodies lack many of the decaying factors of most humans, such that they might live as long as the most ancient elves, etc... They are constructs, but they are also constructs made of flesh and magic, and magic doesn't last forever without slowly going awry. The flesh needs to remain living and they do process food, etc... , unlike a flesh golem which can be simply preserved. They also heal, whereas usually constructs must be repaired. The closest thing to them would be a warforged, which only lasts forever if magically repaired periodically. In theory, if the Alias construct could be periodically "repaired" magically they could live forever (but then so can a human).
But in the end, that would imply she could still be alive right now, which I'm totally fine with.
Alias could be wounded, and could heal, and could be healed by (Dragonbait's) divine magic.
I'm not sure why the Alias automaton/construct would need to be periodic "repairs" to live indefinitely.
Some magic does last "forever". Including most magic items.
Permanency dweomers could dim or flicker/fail after several millennia. Continual light is magically fueled by (and slowly consumes) an item, the dweomer will eventually fail and the item may even crumble to dust, but it can take a great many years (centuries, millennia). Phezult's sleep of ages (cast on living creatures) has a duration of one year per GP value of a gemstone used in the casting.
Clone (and stasis clone) and simulacrum can produce "living" creatures of any apparent age, if that's relevant.
And some magics actually grow in power over the years. Mythals. Mythallars. Moonblades. Red Magic tattoos.
Considering the combined arcane and divine magics available to the group which created Alias, I'm sure things like permanency, clone, and wish would've been used.
I agree with Wooly: a primary purpose in constructing Alias was to achieve immortality, so it makes sense for Alias to enjoy agelessness or extraordinary longevity. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 02:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
A new Alias novel would be aces.
Agreed, I wish WotC would stop being stupid on the novels issue. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 May 2017 : 02:21:58
They are sort of Chosen-esque, by their very nature. I could see them being immortal, or at least, as close to it as not to matter (like 1000 year old elves and dragons). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 May 2017 : 20:13:34
Ah, I wouldn't go so far as to say immortal. However, I wouldn't have a problem if someone said that their manufactured bodies lack many of the decaying factors of most humans, such that they might live as long as the most ancient elves, etc... They are constructs, but they are also constructs made of flesh and magic, and magic doesn't last forever without slowly going awry. The flesh needs to remain living and they do process food, etc... , unlike a flesh golem which can be simply preserved. They also heal, whereas usually constructs must be repaired. The closest thing to them would be a warforged, which only lasts forever if magically repaired periodically. In theory, if the Alias construct could be periodically "repaired" magically they could live forever (but then so can a human).
But in the end, that would imply she could still be alive right now, which I'm totally fine with. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 24 May 2017 : 18:32:48
A new Alias novel would be aces. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 May 2017 : 17:20:50
I asked him about that a GenCon, a couple years back. He gave a definite maybe then, too, and basically said it depended on if a future story needed Alias to be immortal.
I'm inclined to say Alias and her sisters would be immortal; they were based of a design that included immortality -- it was pretty much the objective.
That said, Alias wasn't intended to have free will, and I'm doubtful that child-bearing was a consideration. But we know the Alias vessels have free will, and at least one had children, so... Maybe the trade-off for true life was immortality.
I don't think it's a question that will ever be answered by WotC, myself, but I do favor them being immortal, with the other stuff being a happy accident (or a divine boon). |
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