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 Who did the Netherese descend from?

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
KanzenAU Posted - 16 May 2017 : 03:39:52
The term "Netherese" is derived from the name of Nether the Elder, who we're led to believe grew up around the Narrow Sea. We're told they were a light-skinned, dark-haired people, that their dialect was of the Ulou language family. They were present around the Narrow Sea at least by around -3,869 DR.

Descended from the Talfir or Pre-Talfir?
That they're light-skinned and dark-haired might imply a connection with the Talfir, who were present in the Chionthar Valley at least around the earliest years of Dalereckoning, and likely long before that. My guess is that the Talfir of the Shadowking's era were themselves descended from the human group led by Tethir that settled in the modern Green Fields area around -11,700 DR. Alternatively, the Netherese could be directly descended from the pre-Talfir/Tethir group of humans. It's not a great leap to say that these people could have followed the flow of rivers to the Narrow Sea.

Descended from the Ulutiuns?
The main links here are that the Netherese grew up in the far North, near the arctic region, and that they speak a language of the Ulou family. Although their skin type is quite different, this could have been the result of millenia apart from their forbears. However, the Ulutiuns are said to have come originally from northern Kara-Tur and have broad features, whereas this isn't mentioned for the Netherese.

Descended from the pre-Chondathans?
We know that human tribes existed in the Vilhon Reach at least by the time of the Crown Wars, and it's possible some of these people migrated north. These people were likely fair-skinned at this early stage, similar to the Netherese (they're described as developing olive skin as Shaarans move up into their region much later). My feeling is that the fertile Vilhon would offer little incentive to a mass migration North, but it's possible.

Descended from the Thaeravelians?
The Land of Alabaster Towers was founded around -4,300 DR, and little is known of it save that it was overrun by the Netherese in -3392. We don't know what kind of people lived there, or if they were even definitively human. However, their proximity to the Netherese could indicate they were related. One theory that has been put out here before is that the Thaeravelians were Imaskari, and they may very well have been.

Descended from the Nar?
I find this unlikely, as the Nar are still only tribes by around -2,460 DR. However, their language is also from the Ulou family. I think it more likely that they are another ethnic group related to the Netherese or the Ulutiuns (they're tan and stocky) that were pushed east by the rise of Netheril.

Something else?
My best guess at the moment is that they were descended from the fair-skinned Pre-Talfir group, migrated along rivers to the Narrow Sea, and at that point mixed with Ulutiuns who had come down from the Endless Ice Sea, to become a new ethnic group that would become known as the Netherese with the rise of Nether the Elder.

I'm sure I had a few other theories that aren't cropping up in my head, and I'm sure other people here will have ideas I haven't thought of. Interested to see what people have to say - especially if anyone has any recollection of the work Eric Boyd allegedly did on migration patterns back in the day, which I have no access to! I know Tom Costa has at least seen them (and used them to develop his excellent language article for Dragon Magazine), so especially interested if he pops his head in here too!

As always, interested in any or all thoughts.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Gary Dallison Posted - 21 May 2017 : 18:33:27
Definitely not do things with abeir. Pretend it doesnt exist, alog with 5e and 4e. But thats probably just me.
sleyvas Posted - 21 May 2017 : 18:19:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just can't get onboard with any deities having been in Abeir. Its doesn't just go against canon, it actually goes against the basic premise on which Abeir was created - NO gods.

Now that they ('the powers that be') are back-peddling on so much stuff, they're just making primordials 'a different kind of god' (but basically the same Thing), which to me is just more redundancy. I wanted them to be different - its what I liked about them (and Abeir).

The lines have gotten so blurry they've become pointless, IMHO.

I'm going to have to rethink a lot of stuff. I have always gone with Ed's premise that Magic = "Life", which is exactly the premise behind Athas as well - a world drained of life/magic. It's what made the Phaerimm stuff WORK. It also works within the confines of the 'Nobanion = Aslan' stuff (that magic IS life). Basically, Toril's 'Weave' is super-charged with life (hence - in part - the ability for anything to breed with anything).

Magic dead zones are 'lifeless', just like Athas.

But if thats so, and Abeir 'had no magic', then it should have been just like Athas (and I think large swaths of it were - the whole of the Darksun campaign took place in a region the size of The Raurin). That means the main continent - Laerakond (Ed also gave us another name - i need to find that one) had to have something that gave it 'some life back'. Maybe the dragons themselves? (Ed also has some lore about dragons being the 'key' to magic, sort of how it is in GoT, but I can't really discuss that).

I might be able to put together a new theory - that dragons are like 'magic sponges' - maybe they were created (in their current, terrestrial form) to do just that - 'mop up' the mess of free-floating mana that was left after the First world was Sundered. They can literally be used like 'seeds' to bring life to new worlds (basically, like giant mana-producing power plants). They gather that energy and release it, naturally, causing magic to escape into the magnetosphere (or in magic terms, the web of leylines around a planet). Like I said, just something new I am playing with as of this morning.

EDIT:
And now I am thinking about the scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, when the kraken lay dead on the beach - "The world is a little less brighter with the magic gone".




Look at it this way. We can either do things with Abeir OR we can NOT do things with Abeir.

So far, my ideas have revolved around the idea that unbeknownst to Faerun a lot more of Toril went to Abeir (Anchorome, Maztica, Katashaka, portions of Osse, Nimbral, Lantan, Halruaa, Unther, portions of Chessenta and Chondath, many of the people and possibly portions of Mulhorand, portions of Thindol, Samarach, Tashalar, Lapaliiya, and the Mhair Jungle, maybe portions of the dire wood, etc... ).


Along with those regions, the idea of worship transferred over. The deities were for the most part seen to be beneficial by the surrounding territories. Thus, worship may have spread into Abeir itself, but only barely. Then things transfer back, but some of the deities stay because they've become worshipped by the native Abeirans. Similarly, the Abeirans that were here in Toril transfer back and introduce some gods that were here to Abeir.

So, now we've set the stage for a world with Primordials to awaken and a less than coherent group of gods to challenge them. Essentially, look at Sword & Sorcery's world of Skarn from 3e in which there was this deity versus Titan struggle and the Titans were defeated, but had to be simply "chained down" because killing them was hard to figure out. Now picture playing through that era of gods versus Titans rather than it already be a certain win.

Throw in the idea that the "second" Sundering setup these "links" between the two worlds, and thus you can setup some kind of war between worlds kind of like the Magician series of Novels by Raymond E. Feist. Abeir becomes the "low magic" world and Toril is the "high magic" world... but on Abeir the weave is growing stronger. Bring in the idea of harvesting resources between worlds (which for the United Tharchs may even include things like slaves), and you get a lot that you can develop.

Also, throw in some areas of Abeir that never really developed sentient humanoid populations, but rather possessing possibly intelligent animals (not animal humanoids, but actual animals... like Narnia) and you could open up whole sections where Lurue and Nobanion prosper.

Markustay Posted - 21 May 2017 : 17:18:06
I just can't get onboard with any deities having been in Abeir. Its doesn't just go against canon, it actually goes against the basic premise on which Abeir was created - NO gods.

Now that they ('the powers that be') are back-peddling on so much stuff, they're just making primordials 'a different kind of god' (but basically the same Thing), which to me is just more redundancy. I wanted them to be different - its what I liked about them (and Abeir).

The lines have gotten so blurry they've become pointless, IMHO.

I'm going to have to rethink a lot of stuff. I have always gone with Ed's premise that Magic = "Life", which is exactly the premise behind Athas as well - a world drained of life/magic. It's what made the Phaerimm stuff WORK. It also works within the confines of the 'Nobanion = Aslan' stuff (that magic IS life). Basically, Toril's 'Weave' is super-charged with life (hence - in part - the ability for anything to breed with anything).

Magic dead zones are 'lifeless', just like Athas.

But if thats so, and Abeir 'had no magic', then it should have been just like Athas (and I think large swaths of it were - the whole of the Darksun campaign took place in a region the size of The Raurin). That means the main continent - Laerakond (Ed also gave us another name - i need to find that one) had to have something that gave it 'some life back'. Maybe the dragons themselves? (Ed also has some lore about dragons being the 'key' to magic, sort of how it is in GoT, but I can't really discuss that).

I might be able to put together a new theory - that dragons are like 'magic sponges' - maybe they were created (in their current, terrestrial form) to do just that - 'mop up' the mess of free-floating mana that was left after the First world was Sundered. They can literally be used like 'seeds' to bring life to new worlds (basically, like giant mana-producing power plants). They gather that energy and release it, naturally, causing magic to escape into the magnetosphere (or in magic terms, the web of leylines around a planet). Like I said, just something new I am playing with as of this morning.

EDIT:
And now I am thinking about the scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, when the kraken lay dead on the beach - "The world is a little less brighter with the magic gone".
Gary Dallison Posted - 21 May 2017 : 17:10:18
Dont forget that Elaine herself has said that evermeey should not be taken as historical fact. That gives a lot of room for interpretation
sleyvas Posted - 19 May 2017 : 13:30:13
If I were to link Kiaransalee to the Raven Queen in the past it would have been LOOONNNNNNNGGGG Ago. We have to remember, Kiaransalee was a god on Toril before Lolth was (look in the novel Evermeet, she's there in the beginning), and she was an interloper. So, if around the dawn of time Kiaransalee took over an aspect of the Raven Queen somehow (maybe she used the original "forget about me forever" on the Raven Queen.... same thing she later tried to use on Orcus later (which is canon)). It may have even been that Kiaransalee "was" the Raven Queen, in that whatever aspect she acquired, she actually magically "booted" its consciousness out and inserted her own. This helps fit the lore where the Raven Queen was around long ago, but now she's "new".

Along these lines, with Kiaransalee back, I'd really like to pursue an idea I had a few years back. Basically, in my musings of "the gods were in Abeir", I have 5 gods in particular who are working together in Abeir to restore magic and many of the "dead" gods (btw, Helm, Lathander, and Tyr are also involved with their own work). Those 5 gods are Savras, Leira, Deneir, Velsharoon, and Mask (with occasional help from a 6th, Karsus, and 7th, Finder Wyvernspur, whose song magic aided both Lathander AND Mystra's servants). In that scenario, Mask is helping strictly because he likes the intrigue of it (and he has a "thang" for Leira). I don't know why, but I also like the idea that Velsharoon and Kiaransalee also find each other in the midst of this and become a husband/wife scenario co-ruling necromancy. This becomes even more pleasing to me if she looks like the raven queen, as I can picture Velsharoon and the Raven Queen hand in hand. Perhaps the two ally to work against Orcus and other demon lords who seek to usurp necromancy.

I know some will say "well, why do we need Myrkul, Orcus, Velsharoon, and Kiaransalee" and my answer to that is "because then you can play it that there's a struggle going on for this worship and work those worshippers against each other".
Markustay Posted - 19 May 2017 : 01:30:31
Hmph. Well, I don't like it just because it gives Sleyvas' theory more traction than mine.

Seriously... thats like them practically telling us they're the same person...
KanzenAU Posted - 18 May 2017 : 23:16:10
Not sure if it was intentional or not, involving Orcus - but Orcus HATES the Raven Queen too, and desires her portfolio over death. This is the backdrop to the run of published 4e adventures, culminating in Orcus killing her unless the players stop him.
Markustay Posted - 18 May 2017 : 15:04:36
But you are still saying The Raven Queen is more ancient than Kiaransalee, which makes no sense (despite canon lore that says it).


The only way any of this works is that The Raven Queen was a mortal in ancient times, quite possible soon after the Dawn War. That would work in regards to her being associated with the Giant Kingdoms and the Citadel of the Raven. You could choose not to use that bit of conjecture, but it still doesn't change the timeframe. Then she goes to Pluton for some umpteenth millennia (which is a bit much, but she did work her way up to being Nerull's consort, which is no easy task - she must be VERY patient LOL), and eventually takes the place over. Now, since we have plenty of lore on Nerull (not in FR, but in D&D), he HAD TO be around during the eras D&D takes place in - he could not had died some 30K+ years before D&D even existed. Sure, we can throw-in some 'time fudgery', but I know how much people hate that stuff around here.

So we have that 'First World' (or just Abeir-Toril, if you prefer, which IS canon), and then we have a Sundering/Shattering, and then the Raven Queen rises to power somewhere. She bides her time and works her way up through the ranks, becoming Nerull's 'right hand' (consort, lieutenant, whatever). She makes a deal with lolth on the side to help her get rid of Nerull and take his power, but Lolth being who she is takes most of the power for herself and becomes a greater Goddess (which takes time for some reason - The Silence of lolth), so at that point (late 2e?) The Raven Queen is 'stuck' in a quasi-divine state, in need of more raw power to complete her transformation. Coincidentally, kiaransalee "received a massive influx of worshipers that elevated her from the rank of demigod to Lesser deity" (that straight from the Wiki) during the time when Lolth went silent.

So lets say The Raven Queen creates/finds a bit of 'ancient, eldritch magic' about "erasing memories" on a mass scale. She takes the ritual and adds some stuff of her own to it (basically tethers herself to the forthcoming magic), and makes sure it winds up in Q'arlynd Melarn's hands (either directly of indirectly). Q'arlynd Melarn does the ritual, causing people to forget about Kiaransalee, and tRQ grabs most of the escaping energy from the dwindling Kiaransalee... but she also loses her own name and past in the process (she may not know her whole story herself at this point). That takes care of everything, and the time table is perfect. Enter 4e and tRQ is a full-fledged God that 'came out of nowhere', and kiaransalee is forgotten. Now in 5e I believe Kiaransalee is back... or is she? Could it just be TRQ using that as an alias to get back at lolth, stealing some of her worshipers from her? FR fans around here may not like this shoe-horning too much, but I think it adds another level of 'cosmic drama' to everything (without inviting Shar to the party for once).

We could squeeze Orcus in there somehow, because of his hatred for Kiaransalee, but that would probably over-complicate things (especially if I add in my own homebrew lore about Orcus actually being a 'stillborn' aspect of Gruumsh). We could just say he is the one who approached The Raven Queen with the idea of erasing Kiaransalee, and that would be his only part in it. I'm sure all these 'outsider' death-gods - who are all trying to build their own religions and power - cut deals like that all the time. Orcus would be in a similar boat as tRQ, stuck in an 'almost divine' state.

And there I go, off on tangent again... apologies...
sleyvas Posted - 17 May 2017 : 22:01:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood until recently. Its just not feasible.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.
Yeah, thats pretty-much how I was spinning it above. the loss of the name also allowed her to shed whatever corruption nerull had piled on her.

I still prefer connecting her to the Lady Mage from Netheril - I have to find that name. I recall her death had something to do with the Crown of Horns, and Myrkul is connected to the Crown of Horns (quite literally, last I heard), and Myrkul and Nerull appear to be 'brothers from another mother' or some such (they are almost exactly alike). The way I was thinking about spinning it is that Nerull was involved in Myrkul getting the Crown in the first place, back when Myrkul was still a mortal prince of Murghôm. It may have been a bid on Nerull's part to establish a presence in Realmspace, and Myrkul was meant to be a Chosen, but he went his own way instead. Later, the crown is used in Netheril, and that poor woman becomes attached to it.

I wouldn't connect Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen directly then - I would say that when the spell was cast to erase the memory of Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen siphoned-off Kiarn's rapidly fleeing god-power and became a deity herself, but in so doing the spell affected her as well.



Yeah, could also be something where Kiaransalee's ascension involved taking over one of many aspects of the "original" raven queen. Then Kiaransalee becomes multi-spheric, spins up her own avatars. She keeps that original aspect under her control in "somewhere else that ain't realmspace". Then Kiaransalee's memory gets wiped and that old aspect of the raven queen gets freed, but with her memory wiped too. Lot of ways to skin the cat.
KanzenAU Posted - 17 May 2017 : 14:37:59
Yeah, integrating the core-4e Dawn War history with the other worlds is really quite problematic. I'm unfortunately invested in combining the two because I had a two year core-4e campaign that I'd love to link to my FR via between-world travel, but reconciling the gods of core-4e with FR and Greyhawk is troublesome at best.
Markustay Posted - 17 May 2017 : 14:31:19
I'm actually okay with breaking all of FR's toys (heck, if the owners doesn't respect them, why should we?), but you leave my Greyahwk lore alone!!!

There is only ONE 'Nerull', and he is a truly ancient power. He may even be the closest thing to the 'death archtype' in D&D (I believe many of GH's gods are direct avatars of archtypes, because of the deep connection that setting has with The Great Wheel).

Some of the stuff I'm playing with now (in regards to all of this) is further connecting the Crown of Horns to Nerull, via my homebrew lore of the Netherese and Imaskari being connected to the Suel and Baklunish. That would give a good reason as to why the Crown of Horns was over in the Hordelands region (of course, the more important reason is because I've also theorized the 'Black Diamond' in the Crown is the same one as the one that drove the Fey out of the Prime Material, and that happened on Toril... or rather, Abeir-Toril, and that THAT incident took place in the east, in the Hanya Maut wasteland).

The problem with MY 'homebrew bits' is that they're almost all interconnected, so its difficult to take one of my theories and cut it away from the rest.
KanzenAU Posted - 17 May 2017 : 14:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood. Its just not feasible.

There's been a lot of speculation and theories about the two Nerulls, Pelors, Banes, and so forth. Some think that such gods were resurrected, others think that mortals arose and took some of the old gods' powers. I know there's been a little chatter here about such things, but there was a lot of non-FR talk about it back in the 4e days. I'm inclined to think in the case of Nerull, a mortal arose and took a fragment of the old gods' power along with his name (or perhaps it's a title?).
Markustay Posted - 17 May 2017 : 13:54:43
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood until recently. Its just not feasible.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.
Yeah, thats pretty-much how I was spinning it above. the loss of the name also allowed her to shed whatever corruption nerull had piled on her.

I still prefer connecting her to the Lady Mage from Netheril - I have to find that name. I recall her death had something to do with the Crown of Horns, and Myrkul is connected to the Crown of Horns (quite literally, last I heard), and Myrkul and Nerull appear to be 'brothers from another mother' or some such (they are almost exactly alike). The way I was thinking about spinning it is that Nerull was involved in Myrkul getting the Crown in the first place, back when Myrkul was still a mortal prince of Murghôm. It may have been a bid on Nerull's part to establish a presence in Realmspace, and Myrkul was meant to be a Chosen, but he went his own way instead. Later, the crown is used in Netheril, and that poor woman becomes attached to it.

I wouldn't connect Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen directly then - I would say that when the spell was cast to erase the memory of Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen siphoned-off Kiarn's rapidly fleeing god-power and became a deity herself, but in so doing the spell affected her as well.
KanzenAU Posted - 17 May 2017 : 12:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Spelljammer lore offers some ideas, too. "Glyth" on the FR Wiki page says: "Mind flayer refugees originally came from Glyth to Toril circa -10,700 DR in their Nautiloids and founded the city of Oryndoll." I'm not sure if this means refugee humans ("cattle") who escaped the illithids, or if this means the illithids themselves.

I feel like the text in the GHotR implies it was an illithid settlement. Interestingly, "Realmspace" says that illithids had likely only been on Glyth for a century or so, and the GHotR calls Glyth a "star"... all very strange.
KanzenAU Posted - 17 May 2017 : 12:28:34
If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or rleated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
sleyvas Posted - 17 May 2017 : 12:20:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I noticed how when one was 'erased' from memory, the other's name was also erased, and both happened right around the same time. However, the similarities end there. Sure, both are also tied to 'the dead', but the Raven Queen isn't a bad sort, unlike Kiaransalee (unless, somehow her personality also shifted to something closer to how she was before she fell under Nerull's sway).

We could connect it to either stray bits of lore - both work. I just don't think we can get them to both work at the same time (since we KNOW kiaransalee came from Threnody, NOT Toril).

UNLESS... the drow of Abeir referred to their home as 'Threnody'.

Lets say Kiaransalee is/was 'The Raven Queen', and during the last 'Magical Chaos' (the fall of Mystryl/Netheril?) she gets shunted to Abeir. Torillian powers have no access there, but she finds a 'back door' leading her to Nerull. She worships (pays lip service to) Nerull, and is slowly corrupted by him. When she dies she goes to his Realm... only to start plotting against him from the beginning. It was all a very elaborate plan to get herself home.

Then she makes a deal with Lolth for her 'big move' against Nerull, but Lolth steals much of Nerull's former power for herself, and ascends to become a true Greater Goddess (with her own divine Realm, outside the Abyss) - The Silence of Lolth. Kiaransalee must wait a little longer for the right moment. Then someone cast that persnikity spell making 'everyone forget Kiaransalee', but she is still able to linger as a vestige in her original persona - The Raven Queen. The spell also stripped-away all the corruption Nerull had fostered on her. Thus, she starts-out under-powered (and no longer pure evil), and takes her time (the wailing years/lost century) to rebuild her/Nerull's power-base.

Still not a nice person, but not necessarily evil, ether. Just trying to find herself within the new framework of things. If Kiaransalee was also restored as of 5e, that could present a problem (both in and out of game). I'm still dying to connect tRQ to PF's Pharasma.

Can people please pick holes in all that? I just threw it together quickly - aside from the 'fudging'of Threnody, anything else?

And, of course, some part of Nerull might also be a vestige somewhere. Perhaps inside of Acerak?

Of course, thats pretty convoluted, just to connect her to the Citadel - I think I liked connecting it to the Netherese lady-mage better. I still haven't found her name, but I like to see her get some love, and also keep Kiaransalee and tRQ separate. She'd probably also have a thing against Karsus, if thats her, and he might be back in 5e as well (although I doubt it - he died WAY before 1e).



Bear in mind, neither Kiaransalee or the raven queen came from Toril. Also, Kiaransalee was often shown not as a drow, but as a white skinned elf-like woman with dark hair.

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.
Ayrik Posted - 17 May 2017 : 07:40:31
Spelljammer lore offers some ideas, too. "Glyth" on the FR Wiki page says: "Mind flayer refugees originally came from Glyth to Toril circa -10,700 DR in their Nautiloids and founded the city of Oryndoll." I'm not sure if this means refugee humans ("cattle") who escaped the illithids, or if this means the illithids themselves.

Planescape lore hardly discusses Primes or Toril at all. But human populations exist on many planes and many worlds, and nobody (not even Powers who claim otherwise) really knows where these humans came from. Human populations have been known to "spontaneously" appear in isolated planes and realms and worlds, anywhere conditions are right, with no real idea of how they came to those places.
Ignoring Faerunian religious teachings, humans might arrive from branches of the Yggdrasil World Tree, they might emerge in the Realms from planar conduits like the Celestial Staircase or the various Underworld Rivers or even the Platonic Caves of Ignorance, lol.

(Your) Realmslore offers portals. Humans arrive somewhere through a portal from somewhere else. Just as likely an ongoing process as an isolate event, portals can remain open indefinitely, portal endpoints can remain fixed or can move around, portals can cross oceans or planets or planes. Portals come and portals go, and peoples come and go along for the ride.

I personally think the origins of humans on (Abeir-)Toril are linked with those of humans on Oerth, humans on Krynn, and humans on Earth.

Not Realmslore, but canon provides an example of humans "evolving" (from halflings!) on Athas.
KanzenAU Posted - 17 May 2017 : 06:11:25
What do people think about this as a tale for humanity in the Realms? For those that find the ideas distasteful, a warning upfront that it involves only a couple of migrating groups, and it involves a pretty heavy reliance of sarrukh breeding programs. It also revolves around the "Out of Katashaka" concept.

A Short History of Humanity on Toril
At the end of the Dawn War and Toril's Shadow Epoch came the receding of the ice, the revealing of land, and the Days of Thunder. The Elder Gods powerful enough at this time to seed this world with their creations were the World Serpent, Ramenos, and a tripartite avian deity. These gods created the sarrukh, the batrachi, and the aearee. The Fey, created in the Feywild by the Fey Gods, also soon visited upon this world. In these earliest days a fifth race also appeared - humanity. These primitive humans had come through a gate from another world, and they were not at all prepared for what awaited them on Abeir-Toril.

As the humans explored their new land, which they came to call "Katashaka", some spread northeast and encountered the sarrukh of Mhairshaulk, who entirely controlled the land-bridge to what would later be known as Faerun. The sarrukh, at the height of their power, took the humans as their slaves. They performed terrible experiments on them. The most heartless of these humans were cultivated and eventually transformed into the first yuan-ti. Those considered less suitable for such a "gift" were kept on for manual labour. Breeding programs were set in place by the various sarrukh houses, each trying to out-do the other by creating a different looking set of humans. Over time, these breeding programs resulted in humans of many different appearances. Meanwhile, small groups of free humans still wandered the wilderness of Katashaka, keeping to a hunting and gathering lifestyle. Some say that these humans have special powers not possessed by the humans of other lands, for they were not altered by the yuan-ti.

During the thousand years that followed, the power of the sarrukh waned, and the yuan-ti rose to power in Mhairshaulk. While the yuan-ti struggled to gain a firm hold of the realm, four groups of humans managed to escape their cruel masters. One group fled north across the Strait of Lopango into the area that would later become known as Maztica. Their respite will not last long however, for not long after they would become newly enslaved by the batrachi of Nadezhda (BRJ). These people may in part be the ancestors of the Mazticans, although it is possible another migration of humans from another world was more responsible for this group. They may also be the predecessors of the Illuskans. Around the same time, another group of humans fled northeast. Pursued relentlessly by the yuan-ti, this group did not stop moving until finally the yuan-ti gave up the chase near the modern Alamber Sea area. This group of dark-skinned humans would later become known as the Turami. A third group fled along the southern coast until they finally came to rest in the area known as the Golden Lands. This tan-skinned group too would become the ancestors to the predecessors fo the Durpari and the Imaskari. A fourth group of fair-skinned humans would flee north, past the Lake of Steam into the area that would later become Calimshan. These were the descendants of the Talfir. The humans that remained slaves in Mhairshaulk eventually became one people, as the yuan-ti had less interest in the specificly targeted breeding programs of the sarrukh. These people would eventually become known as the Lapal.

The breaking apart of Abeir and Toril by Lord Ao after the Tearfall would result in many humans living an entirely separate existence in Abeir. Their history will not be recounted here.

All the humans that had managed to obtain their freedom kept to the lives of hunter-gatherers for millennia, and thus they slowly spread across Abeir-Toril, albeit in small numbers. These numbers were not only kept low by the need to find food, but also the predations of monsters and the various ruling races across the ages. The batrachi, the titans, aearee, the dragons, and the giants all looked upon humanity as a pitiful race of cave-dwellers that warranted little notice. Occasionally across the millennia a powerful member of these races would take an interest in some humans. The "Citadel of the Raven", built in the time of the Flowering of the Elves, is an example of this. A mighty dragon, seeking vengeance for the woes the elves had wrought on her people, sought to make humankind a great race that would do to the elves what the elves had done to the dragons. This plan would ultimately fail, but the Citadel remains a potent symbol of the potential power of humanity.

Not too long later, the First Sundering would be wrought by the elves, separating the humans of the western continents from the east for millennia upon millennia.

It was only well after the arrival of the elves that the first group of humans acheived a truly agricultural way of life were the fair-skinned humans that had fled north from Mhairshaulk, previously having lived in the forests of Keltormir and Shantel Othreier. The settled in the modern Green Fields area after part of the forest there was cleared by dragonfire. Their newfound life would not last forever, though - the invasion of Shantel Othreier by Aryvaandar would force many humans out to find other areas to settle. One of these groups headed east, settling in the Vilhon Reach, eventually becoming the Chondathan people. Another group would head northeast, following the rivers all the way to the fertile banks of the Narrow Sea - becoming the early Netherese (as well as the Rengarth and Angardt). Those that remained in the Green Fields area would later spread all the way along the Chionthar, and become known as the Talfir. At the same time, a group of these fair-skinned humans never settled down, preferring to remain in the forests of southern Keltormir. These people would later be known as the people of Mir, prominent ancestors of modern Tethyrians.

While the Crown Wars raged across the north and west of Faerun, the group of humans that had settled the Golden Lands slowly came into their own. Although they remained hunter-gatherers, they were beginning to near agricultural breakthrough. One group of these people migrated far to the north, eventually becoming the Taangan. Another northern migration a few hundred years later found the catalyst they needed in the Raurin Plateau, where they settled and became the Imaskari. Over the next two thousand years, the Imaskari developed into a powerful slave-owning people, who subjugated the Tangaan, the Turami people, and the people of Durpar - from where they themselves had come. This mingling of different ethnic groups over milennia, some of whom would leave and form new ethnic groups in different regions, would result in a variety of new peoples.

A group leaving Imaskar around -6,000 would become the Shaarans, while another spreading out to the east into Kara-Tur would become the ancestors of the Shou and many other Kara-Turan ethnicities. In the north, some of the subjugated Taangan would leave their old ways of life behind, and become the Raumvirans. In -5,000, some Raumvirans would head west and become the Rashemi. In turn, groups of Rashemi would migrate north to become the Sossrim, as well as west to become the Nar. The period of Shartra (darkness) in Imaskar would also lead them to open a gate to another world, bringing in the people that would eventually mix with them and become the Mulan. Around the same time, a group of powerful Imaskari would themselves migrate out of failing Imaskar, heading northwest to found the realm of Thaeravel, establishing a base from which they might study the phaerimm and investigate the rumoured existence of the Nether Scrolls. Much later, a northeastern group of Kara-Turans would become the Ulutiuns, and slowly spread over the polar ice cap, all the way across Toril to the far west, where they would descend into the Sword Coast and later become known as the Ice Hunters.

The rise of the Imaskari had caused much chaos in their ancestral homeland of the Golden Lands, and a group of humans left around -8,500, heading south into the continent that would later be known as Zakhara. These humans would remain primitive hunter-gatherers for millenia more, only establishing great kingdoms much later. However, one of these groups was taken as slaves by the noble djinni lord Calim, who would later bring them to Faerun. These people would become known as the Calishites. Much, much later, another group would migrate through a portal from Zakhara to the Anauroch region, becoming the Bedine.

Around -3,000, the fair-skinned Illuskans would arrive in the Sword Coast area. This group was descended from a group of the humans who had fled Mhairshaulk into Maztica, who had subsequently sailed west across the sea to a group of islands. In these islands they discovered a gate which landed them around the Valley of Khedrun, from where the tried to find their way back home, eventually giving up and settling in Ruathym.

Things would only really change for the Lapal people, still enslaved by the yuan-ti, after the arrival of the Tabaxi, Eshowe, and Thinguth tribes from far to the west - themselves descended from the original free Katashakans. The chaos brought by their migration would allow some Lapal to rebel against their yuan-ti masters, and establish their own free realms in the eastern jungles. Some of these people would eventually become the Tashalans. Continuing conflict with the yuan-ti would drive some of the Lapal to the area of modern Halruua. Later, many of the Lapal tribes would unite against the yuan-ti to found the nation of Lapaliiya.

Over time, nations and races would mix and new ethnicities would emerge. The modern Tethyrians are an example of this, as are the Damarans, the Arkaiuns, the Halruuans, and the Tesharans of the Moonsea area (a splinter group of whom would later become the Vaasans). The Gur are another example, being people of Narfell and Raumathar who fled far to the west, blending with other groups such as the Netherese as they went. The next age of humanity is likely to be one of even greater mixing.

Opinions? Most of this is derived from the Grand History of the Realms, with some significant tweaking (but no contradicting that I'm aware of).

Edit: I'd also have the original Ice Hunters be another offshoot from the pre-Talfir group of the Tethir clearing - this allows them to be present in the North in -3000 as required by GHotR. The modern Ice Hunters are a mix of this group with the Ulutiuns who migrated over the polar ice cap.
Markustay Posted - 17 May 2017 : 01:41:48
Yeah, I noticed how when one was 'erased' from memory, the other's name was also erased, and both happened right around the same time. However, the similarities end there. Sure, both are also tied to 'the dead', but the Raven Queen isn't a bad sort, unlike Kiaransalee (unless, somehow her personality also shifted to something closer to how she was before she fell under Nerull's sway).

We could connect it to either stray bits of lore - both work. I just don't think we can get them to both work at the same time (since we KNOW kiaransalee came from Threnody, NOT Toril).

UNLESS... the drow of Abeir referred to their home as 'Threnody'.

Lets say Kiaransalee is/was 'The Raven Queen', and during the last 'Magical Chaos' (the fall of Mystryl/Netheril?) she gets shunted to Abeir. Torillian powers have no access there, but she finds a 'back door' leading her to Nerull. She worships (pays lip service to) Nerull, and is slowly corrupted by him. When she dies she goes to his Realm... only to start plotting against him from the beginning. It was all a very elaborate plan to get herself home.

Then she makes a deal with Lolth for her 'big move' against Nerull, but Lolth steals much of Nerull's former power for herself, and ascends to become a true Greater Goddess (with her own divine Realm, outside the Abyss) - The Silence of Lolth. Kiaransalee must wait a little longer for the right moment. Then someone cast that persnikity spell making 'everyone forget Kiaransalee', but she is still able to linger as a vestige in her original persona - The Raven Queen. The spell also stripped-away all the corruption Nerull had fostered on her. Thus, she starts-out under-powered (and no longer pure evil), and takes her time (the wailing years/lost century) to rebuild her/Nerull's power-base.

Still not a nice person, but not necessarily evil, ether. Just trying to find herself within the new framework of things. If Kiaransalee was also restored as of 5e, that could present a problem (both in and out of game). I'm still dying to connect tRQ to PF's Pharasma.

Can people please pick holes in all that? I just threw it together quickly - aside from the 'fudging'of Threnody, anything else?

And, of course, some part of Nerull might also be a vestige somewhere. Perhaps inside of Acerak?

Of course, thats pretty convoluted, just to connect her to the Citadel - I think I liked connecting it to the Netherese lady-mage better. I still haven't found her name, but I like to see her get some love, and also keep Kiaransalee and tRQ separate. She'd probably also have a thing against Karsus, if thats her, and he might be back in 5e as well (although I doubt it - he died WAY before 1e).
sleyvas Posted - 16 May 2017 : 23:35:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.
"Bred by Dragons" is not entirely accurate. That may have been a small part of what was going on, but from what I read, in most cases it would have been indirectly (you create a civilization for humans - AND Elves - to flourish in, they're going to be making babies).

And yes, its canon, because it was part of that anthology that went with the Rage of Dragons series of novels (never read that series - because I heard all of the events had ZERO lasting impact on The Realms, plus I don't actually care for dragons, but I DID read the anthology, which was chock-full of history). There was an ancient citadel metioned in the first story that could have been the Citadel of the Raven (I thought it was), but from what I understand, in other parts of the series you learn that citadel was elsewhere (which is a shame - it would have made the CotR more interesting, connecting it to the original covert group that created the kingkiller Star). Regardless, it doesn't mean the CotR couldn't have been around then.

FR history is really weird, in that we have that whole series dealing with the ancient dragons, and we also have another series dealing with the ancient giants, and presumably the two were in a state of constant war for at least a millennia... and yet we see NO EVIDENCE of any of that, anywhere. In fact, both series ignore each other, and the other species altogether. Only from the sourcebook Giantcraft (which I never really liked... not a fan of RoF either) do we get a very brief picture of that war. I think they never gave it any detail because there is no easy way to make it work in a timeline (without shoving other stuff around). And for that matter, we have the draconic realm of the Purple Dragon exiting tens of thousands of years later than all the rest, in Cormyr 9or rather, pre-cormyr). They need to retcon the events of that first Cormyr novel further back in the timeline - there should have been a MUCH larger time-gap between the elves taking over the land, and then the humans showing up. It doesn't really make much sense in regards to everything else (like, why the heck would Netheril leave a powerful dragon running it own little draconic kingdom right to the south?) The elves should have taken the land from the Purple Dragon long before the Netherese rose to power.

And for a time, Thaeravel would have served as a 'buffer zone' between the Netherese and the Purple Dragon. So this dragon - who considered humans brutish, uncivilized creatures - had two magically powerful empires directly to its north.... ummm... okay?

Personally, I think we should have had an actual reboot in 5e, and then they could have fixed the entire timeline. They missed a Golden opportunity there, because they could have had an in-setting reason for the reboot (like how ST did it). They could have gone all the way back to the First Sundering, and all the problems in the setting could have been ironed out.

Instead, we got a reboot that wasn't really a reboot, that has so much plot-armor and Mary-Suesim attached to it its almost unpalatable.

So we got the GHotR, which just glosses-over a lot of important stuff (like those dragon empires) simply because its too hard to actually make the lore work properly. And we could have had viable human-migration charts. I had plans to do one of those way back when, but I found RoF kept getting in the way. Its just so much easier to say, "Its Magic!"
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, getting back to the topic (and ending my mini-rant), I am not adverse to connecting the Netherese to the Giants and the Citadel of the Raven. I would love to connect that place to The Raven Queen, but her history doesn't go back anywhere near that far; she's actually a very recent power (which also makes very little sense - "The name of the god is long forgotten" - really, for a power thats only a century old, at best?) HOWEVER, her write-up says she was once a powerful human sorceress who held the title 'The Raven Queen'. Then she died and went to Pluton. Over time she rose to power there, and eventually even overthrew Nerull (this had to have happened right at the tail-end of 3e). Nothing actually states how long she was in pluton for before she made her move - it could have been thousands of years!

So what if she was originally from The Realms, before she died? What if she was the Queen of the Citadel? Eh? Maybe it was through her power that the tyranny of their giant masters was finally overthrown. That could work. All we would need is to tack-on some lore about how she hates giants (which doesn't go against anything we already know about her). Maybe giants AND dragons.

The only 'hole' (maybe) in all of that is that she only 'erased her name from memory' when she took over Nerull's old place, so that would have also been the tail-end of 3e. I suppose if she had been dead for thousands of years (tens of thousands of years?) people would have forgotten her for the most part anyway, and all she did was erase her name in Pluton, and in any truly ancient records (like maybe some books the elves had). It might make for an interesting adventure-path if some ancient, sealed-away tome containing her true name showed up somewhere in The Realms... like the Citadel of the Ravens... and she needed to move to eliminate that. What if the Zhents got ahold of it? It might be a time for heroes!




Secretly, the Raven Queen was tied to Kiaransalee, and when Kiaransalee was erased from history, it let her loose..... just saying, its mighty convenient.
sleyvas Posted - 16 May 2017 : 23:28:06
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting - so humanity started there (and in other places), or they came from another world? I had been under the impression from the map in GHotR that most human groups must have migrated out of the "Katashaka" area. Or did the Realms just have humans sprouting individually all over?

Edit: The idea of the Netherese being a separate "precursor" group could work with that. So some of humanity derives from Katashaka, become slaves of the sarrukh/yuan-ti, etcetera; a separate fair skinned group arises in the north as the pre-Netherese, who spread south along rivers and become the pre-Talfir and the pre-Chondathans.
Edit 2: To me, separate precursor groups implies a world or worlds these groups came from, rather than concurrent creationism or evolution (just feels less likely).
Edit 3: That's not necessarily a problem though - I was already kind of working from that presumption, but with the "Tethir" group being the other precursors (they're the first significant human group mentioned in the GHotR outside of that map.



I think too much is placed on the idea that humans came from Katashaka based off that one map. I think SOME humans did, but for instance, I also think that there were also humans in the hordelands/Zakhara/Kara-Tur region. That being said, I think the human CREATOR RACES came from Katashaka, and the other humans frankly don't know a lot about them. However, I also think these human creator races were not experimenting like the Sarrukh/Batrachi/Aearee and they were merging themselves with animal spirits in a shamanistic way that possibly ended up creating some of the humanoids like tabaxi, wemics, etc... millennia ago. This is why my Katashaka is filled with mammalian humanoids.
Markustay Posted - 16 May 2017 : 15:15:20
MAN, I hate spellweavers. Just never liked them. I try to avoid connecting them to anything... but thats just me.

If we were to connect the CotR to the Raven Queen (during her time as a mortal), the good part is that we could do that almost anywhere on the timeline, because as you just said, several different groups may have had control of the citadel over the millennia. In fact, considering that that is probably NOT its original name, it might make even more sense moving her closer to the modern age (possibly a Netherese survivor?

Hey! Maybe she's that chick that got killed by the crown (IIRC) - the one who actually discovered a way to get rid of the Phaerimm! She's still bitter about all that. She rises to power and becomes Nerull's consort over the years (which must have been gross, considering he's a skeleton like Myrkul), and then she hears about the return of the Phaerimm in The Realms in 3e, and that's when she decides to make her 'big move' against Nerull. By the time she outs him and consolidates her power in Pluton, the 'threat' of the Phaerimm is already over, so she just erases the memory of her name and starts to build her church in the realms (during the Wailing years, pre-4e).

She was probably wondering how to re-introduce herself into the culture of the Shades - after all, she wouldn't want to step on Shar's toes - but then the Shades fell as well (mostly fell, I think - I haven't kept up with what happened to them). Thus, she is a tragic figure - she's lost her people/empire twice now. She returned just to see them fall again.

Gary Dallison Posted - 16 May 2017 : 14:27:20
Well its potentially a remnant of ostoria so its name is from a giant empire that was destroyed near 30000 years ago.

Put a heim or holldt on the end of whatever you want to call it and that should be a good enough name.
This particular region (the moonsea north) was a fire giant region and so presumably was volcanic way back then, so give it a fire themed name perhaps.

However it has likely been called many names over the years. It was a giant hold to guard the border of the kingdom against dragons. Then it was likely a dragon hold. Then it was probably owned by a multitude of monsters before becoming human owned.

For me though i would have it as an ancoent spellweaver outpost from the outcasts of Er'il. They enslaved the humans first. When that grand conjunction they were doing went awry the spellweavers disappeared (but may not be entirely gone - monument of the ancients was designed to do something, i think it was a power battery) and left the humans to look after themselves. Then giants came along and built atop the original node.

FR is all about ruins and secrets atop ruins and secrets.
Markustay Posted - 16 May 2017 : 14:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.
"Bred by Dragons" is not entirely accurate. That may have been a small part of what was going on, but from what I read, in most cases it would have been indirectly (you create a civilization for humans - AND Elves - to flourish in, they're going to be making babies).

And yes, its canon, because it was part of that anthology that went with the Rage of Dragons series of novels (never read that series - because I heard all of the events had ZERO lasting impact on The Realms, plus I don't actually care for dragons, but I DID read the anthology, which was chock-full of history). There was an ancient citadel metioned in the first story that could have been the Citadel of the Raven (I thought it was), but from what I understand, in other parts of the series you learn that citadel was elsewhere (which is a shame - it would have made the CotR more interesting, connecting it to the original covert group that created the kingkiller Star). Regardless, it doesn't mean the CotR couldn't have been around then.

FR history is really weird, in that we have that whole series dealing with the ancient dragons, and we also have another series dealing with the ancient giants, and presumably the two were in a state of constant war for at least a millennia... and yet we see NO EVIDENCE of any of that, anywhere. In fact, both series ignore each other, and the other species altogether. Only from the sourcebook Giantcraft (which I never really liked... not a fan of RoF either) do we get a very brief picture of that war. I think they never gave it any detail because there is no easy way to make it work in a timeline (without shoving other stuff around). And for that matter, we have the draconic realm of the Purple Dragon exiting tens of thousands of years later than all the rest, in Cormyr 9or rather, pre-cormyr). They need to retcon the events of that first Cormyr novel further back in the timeline - there should have been a MUCH larger time-gap between the elves taking over the land, and then the humans showing up. It doesn't really make much sense in regards to everything else (like, why the heck would Netheril leave a powerful dragon running it own little draconic kingdom right to the south?) The elves should have taken the land from the Purple Dragon long before the Netherese rose to power.

And for a time, Thaeravel would have served as a 'buffer zone' between the Netherese and the Purple Dragon. So this dragon - who considered humans brutish, uncivilized creatures - had two magically powerful empires directly to its north.... ummm... okay?

Personally, I think we should have had an actual reboot in 5e, and then they could have fixed the entire timeline. They missed a Golden opportunity there, because they could have had an in-setting reason for the reboot (like how ST did it). They could have gone all the way back to the First Sundering, and all the problems in the setting could have been ironed out.

Instead, we got a reboot that wasn't really a reboot, that has so much plot-armor and Mary-Suesim attached to it its almost unpalatable.

So we got the GHotR, which just glosses-over a lot of important stuff (like those dragon empires) simply because its too hard to actually make the lore work properly. And we could have had viable human-migration charts. I had plans to do one of those way back when, but I found RoF kept getting in the way. Its just so much easier to say, "Its Magic!"
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, getting back to the topic (and ending my mini-rant), I am not adverse to connecting the Netherese to the Giants and the Citadel of the Raven. I would love to connect that place to The Raven Queen, but her history doesn't go back anywhere near that far; she's actually a very recent power (which also makes very little sense - "The name of the god is long forgotten" - really, for a power thats only a century old, at best?) HOWEVER, her write-up says she was once a powerful human sorceress who held the title 'The Raven Queen'. Then she died and went to Pluton. Over time she rose to power there, and eventually even overthrew Nerull (this had to have happened right at the tail-end of 3e). Nothing actually states how long she was in pluton for before she made her move - it could have been thousands of years!

So what if she was originally from The Realms, before she died? What if she was the Queen of the Citadel? Eh? Maybe it was through her power that the tyranny of their giant masters was finally overthrown. That could work. All we would need is to tack-on some lore about how she hates giants (which doesn't go against anything we already know about her). Maybe giants AND dragons.

The only 'hole' (maybe) in all of that is that she only 'erased her name from memory' when she took over Nerull's old place, so that would have also been the tail-end of 3e. I suppose if she had been dead for thousands of years (tens of thousands of years?) people would have forgotten her for the most part anyway, and all she did was erase her name in Pluton, and in any truly ancient records (like maybe some books the elves had). It might make for an interesting adventure-path if some ancient, sealed-away tome containing her true name showed up somewhere in The Realms... like the Citadel of the Ravens... and she needed to move to eliminate that. What if the Zhents got ahold of it? It might be a time for heroes!
LordXenophon Posted - 16 May 2017 : 14:17:50
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor



How did the Citadel of the Raven get it's name anyway?
Is is the original ancient name, or a new one made up by newcomers to the region?





I know it's not the original name. It's the modern name. I don't know whether the original name was ever mentioned.
Gary Dallison Posted - 16 May 2017 : 11:02:19
Humans need not have been that widespread. You have a dragon (or other super being) discover a small pocket of humans in an isolated mountain or forest clearing. He takes as many of the humans as he can find to become his slaves.

Some humans survive where they were originally.

Now we have two groups of humans. One in the western heartlands forest, the other in the cold lands (just an example, i think the cold lands dragons actually used goblins at first).

Then the dragon with his enslaved humans is killed by a rival or dies.
Another super being comes along and enslaves some of the humans. Some escape.

Now we have 3 pockets in different corners. Within 1000 years we could have a hundred isolated subgroups of humans which become the racial subgroups after mergings and extinctions etc
KanzenAU Posted - 16 May 2017 : 10:38:04
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.

I'm also not "forgetting" the Realms is Earth - I don't think it's poor form to wonder where humanity in the Realms came from. Plenty of sages have speculated before. I'm just working off the canon data points I have - primitive human tribes in Katashaka, and later references to humans everywhere else. If there's information I'm missing, I'd love to see it. Maybe humans did just start simultaneously all over in the Realms, thanks to the blessings of the gods, I don't know. I find it a question worth asking though.

Personally I find the easiest answer to be that primitive humans migrated to the Realms following the last Ice Age, at least to the Katashaka area - but possibly to others as well in different waves. One of those groups could have been the Netherese. YMMV massively.

As for the Citadel of the Raven idea, that seems as reasonable as anything else. It was made by someone, after all!
Misereor Posted - 16 May 2017 : 10:17:04

Tangent.
How did the Citadel of the Raven get it's name anyway?
Is is the original ancient name, or a new one made up by newcomers to the region?

Btw, like the Ostorian connection, Dazz :)
George Krashos Posted - 16 May 2017 : 10:12:10
You forget that The Realms isn't Earth. In the Dawn Days there were "civilized" races that did many things. One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons. In my Realms the magically-talented Netherese were descendants of humans who had been enslaved and bred by dragons.

-- George Krashos
George Krashos Posted - 16 May 2017 : 10:09:18
You forget that The Realms isn't Earth. As dazzlerdal notes, in the Dawn Days there were "civilized" races that did many things. One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons. In my Realms the magically-talented Netherese were descendants of humans who had been enslaved and bred by dragons.

-- George Krashos

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