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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Lord Kristivas Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 15:59:29
In the SCAG, the Chasm's been filled. How in the heck did they fill it? I know the answer is "magic", but does it say who performed this miracle? What do you think they filled it with? Is it solid stone, gravel, etc? I was just going to go with stone, but if there are specific details anywhere, I'd love to go with what's canon.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 18 May 2017 : 13:54:37
I don't think anyone on Toril would try to change the terrain (to the extent it has) on purpose. As Wooly stated, that would be a LOT of effort that would not be worth it. I think its just something that happens on a fairly constant basis (spread over centuries, mind you). And it not just a 'Realms' thing - its endemic to the D&Dverse itself. Ravenloft is, of course, the best example, but if we extrapolate outward, all those places that were in all those other worlds that made it into the Domains of Dread means that all those other worlds had changing terrain as well (although quite a few Domains were just 'copies'). Faerie (Now The Feywild) is another example of a place in constant flux (with tendrils reaching into all other worlds).

And in Planescape/The Great Wheel we see those border-towns are always slipping into the bordering Outer Planes (and then replaced, in a never-ending, always-changing pattern).

Thats why I (constantly) go all the way back to that very first issue of Dragon Magazine and that article that Gary Gygax wrote (under a Pen Name) about a first 'Shattered World'. Its more than just the stuff happening in The Realms with the two Sunderings - the very nature of the D&Dverse seems to be constantly in-flux, with bits of this or that coalescing into new things, and then breaking back apart again (including 'The Gods'). Hell, probably the supreme example of that would be the (4e) World of Nerath setting - its literally made out of pieces of a bunch of other settings (except for Nentir Vale, but that borrows from old published adventures as well). This is why I am always harping on the idea that D&D is the setting. NOT FR. The Forgotten Realms is just one giant chunk of the greater puzzle.

In fact, thats probably a great analogy - the universe is a shattered thing - a Puzzle - and certain beings (some of those Over-overgods I like to talk about) are trying to put it all back together. You ever build a puzzle, by yourself, or especially with others? How each person will have little 'finished clumps' that will eventually become part of the whole? And everyone has a little side-pile of 'maybes' (and sometimes you look at each other's piles and grab stuff you need). That kind of what it like, on a Cosmic scale. Some worlds are more 'stable' than others, but they are all part of this puzzle that's trying to get back together. That's how I picture the D&Dverse.

The big difference between Realmspace and other spheres is that Ao took his side-pile and actually fit it all together in a messy, not-quite-right lump (Abeir), which I assume he did to try and save the Creator races. Using the puzzle analogy again, Ao seems to have taken a major focal point of the original and is working on that (so its like you saying "I'm going to take all the 'wall' pieces and work on that", ect.). He seems to have gathered so may of a particular piece-type (ones containing primordials?) that he was able to build a secondary world (you ever build a puzzle with water? And parts of the main picture are reflected in the water? I have - its like that - you think the pieces go to one but it really goes to the other, but you still have to gather ALL those similar pieces for yourself). Thus, FR winds up with quite a bit more of this 'geography in flux' than most other Prime Worlds.


So basically, I use bits of lore - old and new - to try and explain all the out-of-game oddness we've had over the years, including the 3e maps. "Use the lore to explain the lore".
RDS Posted - 18 May 2017 : 12:15:02
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

By the way, regarding this conversation of cartographers in a changing magical world.... anyone see the magicians episode on Syfy with the cartographer that got all upset when the castle "moved".... only to realize it was an illusion.



Yes. His reaction was quite hilarious since it wasn't revealed till he had finally redrawn everything. Though our mapmaker on here might not find it so.
sleyvas Posted - 17 May 2017 : 22:25:09
By the way, regarding this conversation of cartographers in a changing magical world.... anyone see the magicians episode on Syfy with the cartographer that got all upset when the castle "moved".... only to realize it was an illusion.
sleyvas Posted - 17 May 2017 : 22:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The way I look at it, the older maps (and now newer maps) were done with a 'projection', which means on the extremes (top and bottom) of the map everything gets stretched (like RW maps with a Mercator Projection). That would mean the 3e (and probably 4e) maps were actually more size-accurate, because they were 'local' and didn't have any the distortion you get on the larger maps.

Of course, that doesn't really hold water once you start measuring stuff and looking at distances in written products, but it was the best i could come up with (in 3e - the fact that they've gone back to the 'bigger, better' format kind of screws all that up).

If we go with what they are trying to pull-off, then maybe we lost a lot of terrain during the ToT (which also had 'magical chaos'), and by the time Torillians remapped everything it was 3e. The 'Wild magic Zones' could have been like giant drains, drawing matter into other planes/worlds (like how if you depressurize a plane or spaceship, things get sucked-out). Then comes 5e and they have to remap everything all over again (must suck living in an ever-changing, magical world).



This is kind of one of the things I'm going with when I make my maps. I'm stipulating something along the lines that "the world is so much in flux that maps on a global scale should be taken with a grain of salt". It allows for all of us to start roughly mapping out the world until we come to a consensus of what we want OR WotC gets a more "permanent" one in place (if that will even happen).
sleyvas Posted - 17 May 2017 : 22:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Combine all of those ideas... The gnomes come in, and craft illusions of filling it all in -- in actuality, they've been layering wall of stone spells, starting from the surface and working downwards maybe 20 feet.

So far as anyone knows, the chasm is entirely filled in. Actually, though, it's just covered, and there are some areas they didn't close off, because those areas simply weren't as high a priority. They've just not gotten to them, yet.

They're nearing completion, when something happens. Maybe Lord Neverember pisses off the ranking gnome on the project. Maybe someone has started picking off the gnomes, and now there aren't enough left to complete the project. Maybe one of the factions that opposes Lord N has found out there are still gnomes in the area, doing something rather secretive. Whatever the problem, Lord Neverember needs it handled quickly and discreetly, before anyone finds out that he's been lying about having the chasm filled in.

Or maybe it was roofed over but not filled in, and something has crawled out and become problematic...



One thing to bear in mind, wall of stone isn't permanent anymore. It's concentration or 10 minutes. Same with wall of ice and force. No longer can you do construction with wall spells.

In fact, that could be a good feat... something that makes various types of walls and stuff permanent without concentration (or even if you just made them last a year or so, which would allow a community to throw up temporary walls and build permanent walls behind them.... making a wall of ice that lasts a day would give you enough time to chip it down to cool off drinks, etc.). It would have to have a LOT of those types of benefits to be worth it though.



Actually wall of stone can be made permanent if the caster keeps the concentration going for the full duration.

But not the others...bah humbug.



Ah, I stand corrected. You're correct, there is a sentence in just this one wall spell for 5e that states that the wall stays if concentration is maintained. So, I guess construction of basic walls is back in the hands of mages.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 17 May 2017 : 18:35:16
Unless there's a cabal of wizards (aside from those dwelling on the seashore) who gather with the express purpose of physically re-arranging geography, a plot by in-setting wizards to benefit from the uncertainty is rather unlikely. Moving all that land around would take a heck of a lot of power; we're talking something on the scale with the elven Sundering.

And trying some grand fakery won't work when travelers are traversing the terrain and can directly say how long it took.
Ari Posted - 17 May 2017 : 17:36:52
Idea: since most people don't actually know much about the world because they can't afford to travel, they rely on maps. So who benefits from constant changes to geography, distance and the like in time spans that exceed "normal"(human) lifespans? Wizards.

The whole deal with shrinking, expanding, switcherooing landmasses is all a backstage plot by wziards the world over to control the continental economy and fix the prices of Gate travel/fixed portals. It took you five days to get from Suzail to Tilverton a hundred years ago? Buckle up friendo now it takes fifteen. A constant is the subtle warp keeping Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim and Faer#363;n largely separate, both to maintain a "pure" vision of the world and to keep prices up on goods from there.

Anyway, Wandering Sword's idea of cutting a channel from Neverwinter river to the Chasm does seem likthe "best" solution, that is most interesting and graceful and unreliant on random magic.
Markustay Posted - 07 May 2017 : 21:20:22
The way I look at it, the older maps (and now newer maps) were done with a 'projection', which means on the extremes (top and bottom) of the map everything gets stretched (like RW maps with a Mercator Projection). That would mean the 3e (and probably 4e) maps were actually more size-accurate, because they were 'local' and didn't have any the distortion you get on the larger maps.

Of course, that doesn't really hold water once you start measuring stuff and looking at distances in written products, but it was the best i could come up with (in 3e - the fact that they've gone back to the 'bigger, better' format kind of screws all that up).

If we go with what they are trying to pull-off, then maybe we lost a lot of terrain during the ToT (which also had 'magical chaos'), and by the time Torillians remapped everything it was 3e. The 'Wild magic Zones' could have been like giant drains, drawing matter into other planes/worlds (like how if you depressurize a plane or spaceship, things get sucked-out). Then comes 5e and they have to remap everything all over again (must suck living in an ever-changing, magical world).
Bakra Posted - 05 May 2017 : 20:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Combine all of those ideas... The gnomes come in, and craft illusions of filling it all in -- in actuality, they've been layering wall of stone spells, starting from the surface and working downwards maybe 20 feet.

So far as anyone knows, the chasm is entirely filled in. Actually, though, it's just covered, and there are some areas they didn't close off, because those areas simply weren't as high a priority. They've just not gotten to them, yet.

They're nearing completion, when something happens. Maybe Lord Neverember pisses off the ranking gnome on the project. Maybe someone has started picking off the gnomes, and now there aren't enough left to complete the project. Maybe one of the factions that opposes Lord N has found out there are still gnomes in the area, doing something rather secretive. Whatever the problem, Lord Neverember needs it handled quickly and discreetly, before anyone finds out that he's been lying about having the chasm filled in.

Or maybe it was roofed over but not filled in, and something has crawled out and become problematic...



One thing to bear in mind, wall of stone isn't permanent anymore. It's concentration or 10 minutes. Same with wall of ice and force. No longer can you do construction with wall spells.

In fact, that could be a good feat... something that makes various types of walls and stuff permanent without concentration (or even if you just made them last a year or so, which would allow a community to throw up temporary walls and build permanent walls behind them.... making a wall of ice that lasts a day would give you enough time to chip it down to cool off drinks, etc.). It would have to have a LOT of those types of benefits to be worth it though.



Actually wall of stone can be made permanent if the caster keeps the concentration going for the full duration.

But not the others...bah humbug.
sfdragon Posted - 05 May 2017 : 03:57:32
any maps would have to have been made after Nasher as the man the myth and legend forbid maps of neverwinter from being made, or it was illegally made and inaccurate
KanzenAU Posted - 05 May 2017 : 02:41:50
Yeah that bit in the SCAG didn't really account for the fact that the maps got squidged in 3e, not 4e - there's no real explaining around that one, unless you retcon that the 3e maps were created by someone living in the 4e era...
Markustay Posted - 05 May 2017 : 02:29:39
Actually, its bigger because it went back to the way it was in 1e/2e, which is great (we got all our 'fiddly bits' back!)

But yeah, Ao *cough*

"It bigger on the Inside" - Ao uses British Scify technology.
Gyor Posted - 05 May 2017 : 01:24:17
AO increased the size of Faerun's land mass the SCAG said, so some of that new land could have filled it in.

That is why Faerun is actually bigger then it was in 4e.
sleyvas Posted - 03 May 2017 : 02:52:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, but there's a lil' sumthin' sumthin' peeps keep forgetting about 5e that was its major selling point to me - PC's CAN'T do everything, and sometimes they'll come across bits of magic that are 'ancient & mysterious' that they simply CAN NOT DO.

You know, like how it was in 1e/2e.

Those Gnomish engineers have got a few 'Gondish spells' up their sleeves that no-one knows about.



Yeah, it might be worth developing some new spells like "summon earthen heap" that summons a pile of raw dirt and pebbles, but its permanent. Similar things like "summon pile of ice" that summons basically small bits of odd shaped ice (maybe enough to fill the equivalent of a couple ice chests) , but they stay and melt and form a puddle when they're done. In doing things like, mages can still better aid construction without outright putting some people out of a job, etc...
Markustay Posted - 02 May 2017 : 22:52:16
Nice - great idea. Simple yet elegant.
Wandering Sword Posted - 02 May 2017 : 18:23:22
A map I made some time ago for the beginning of LMoP. I wanted a repaired NW city.

Neverwinter Rebuilt!http://i.imgur.com/NE6bOZm.jpg
Markustay Posted - 02 May 2017 : 17:46:19
Yeah, but there's a lil' sumthin' sumthin' peeps keep forgetting about 5e that was its major selling point to me - PC's CAN'T do everything, and sometimes they'll come across bits of magic that are 'ancient & mysterious' that they simply CAN NOT DO.

You know, like how it was in 1e/2e.

Those Gnomish engineers have got a few 'Gondish spells' up their sleeves that no-one knows about.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 02 May 2017 : 17:08:45
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Combine all of those ideas... The gnomes come in, and craft illusions of filling it all in -- in actuality, they've been layering wall of stone spells, starting from the surface and working downwards maybe 20 feet.

So far as anyone knows, the chasm is entirely filled in. Actually, though, it's just covered, and there are some areas they didn't close off, because those areas simply weren't as high a priority. They've just not gotten to them, yet.

They're nearing completion, when something happens. Maybe Lord Neverember pisses off the ranking gnome on the project. Maybe someone has started picking off the gnomes, and now there aren't enough left to complete the project. Maybe one of the factions that opposes Lord N has found out there are still gnomes in the area, doing something rather secretive. Whatever the problem, Lord Neverember needs it handled quickly and discreetly, before anyone finds out that he's been lying about having the chasm filled in.

Or maybe it was roofed over but not filled in, and something has crawled out and become problematic...



One thing to bear in mind, wall of stone isn't permanent anymore. It's concentration or 10 minutes. Same with wall of ice and force. No longer can you do construction with wall spells.




Really? That's a nerf. I can't say I like that one.
sleyvas Posted - 02 May 2017 : 14:30:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Combine all of those ideas... The gnomes come in, and craft illusions of filling it all in -- in actuality, they've been layering wall of stone spells, starting from the surface and working downwards maybe 20 feet.

So far as anyone knows, the chasm is entirely filled in. Actually, though, it's just covered, and there are some areas they didn't close off, because those areas simply weren't as high a priority. They've just not gotten to them, yet.

They're nearing completion, when something happens. Maybe Lord Neverember pisses off the ranking gnome on the project. Maybe someone has started picking off the gnomes, and now there aren't enough left to complete the project. Maybe one of the factions that opposes Lord N has found out there are still gnomes in the area, doing something rather secretive. Whatever the problem, Lord Neverember needs it handled quickly and discreetly, before anyone finds out that he's been lying about having the chasm filled in.

Or maybe it was roofed over but not filled in, and something has crawled out and become problematic...



One thing to bear in mind, wall of stone isn't permanent anymore. It's concentration or 10 minutes. Same with wall of ice and force. No longer can you do construction with wall spells.

In fact, that could be a good feat... something that makes various types of walls and stuff permanent without concentration (or even if you just made them last a year or so, which would allow a community to throw up temporary walls and build permanent walls behind them.... making a wall of ice that lasts a day would give you enough time to chip it down to cool off drinks, etc.). It would have to have a LOT of those types of benefits to be worth it though.
Zeromaru X Posted - 02 May 2017 : 03:59:32
I'm going to steal that "filled with illusion magic" idea. Its something that Neverember would do (or that I picture him doing). And its better than just "I'm no fun, so I filled the Chasm because status quo" answer in the SCAG.
sleyvas Posted - 01 May 2017 : 22:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

They filled it with the mystical element handwavium. Its properties vary from use to use, but the main thing that's known about it is that it's far more readily available than unobtainium.



I dunno, I just used a portal as part of the world tree to some planet named Pandora, while using a spell to make it so I didn't have to breathe. They had some big monsters and these weird blue jungle giants, but I just shot them with some lightning and they fell over. In fact, the jungle giants had some kind of braid/tentacle coming out of their head, and when you hit the end of it with a shocking grasp... they kind of danced and then fell over. After that, it was pretty much just use a spell to dig up some unobtainium and use the portal to come home.
Markustay Posted - 01 May 2017 : 19:49:53
... and ate the gnomes.


SEE? Isn't this SO much better than "they filled in the hole"?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 01 May 2017 : 19:37:08
Combine all of those ideas... The gnomes come in, and craft illusions of filling it all in -- in actuality, they've been layering wall of stone spells, starting from the surface and working downwards maybe 20 feet.

So far as anyone knows, the chasm is entirely filled in. Actually, though, it's just covered, and there are some areas they didn't close off, because those areas simply weren't as high a priority. They've just not gotten to them, yet.

They're nearing completion, when something happens. Maybe Lord Neverember pisses off the ranking gnome on the project. Maybe someone has started picking off the gnomes, and now there aren't enough left to complete the project. Maybe one of the factions that opposes Lord N has found out there are still gnomes in the area, doing something rather secretive. Whatever the problem, Lord Neverember needs it handled quickly and discreetly, before anyone finds out that he's been lying about having the chasm filled in.

Or maybe it was roofed over but not filled in, and something has crawled out and become problematic...
Markustay Posted - 01 May 2017 : 18:08:55
You could mix'N'match - the 'cover' could be real rock, and the rest 'filled in' with illusion, or parts of it have a real rock covering, while other parts are only illusion, and he's working real hard to replace all the fake parts with real rock, but he's scrambling for enough coin to pay the wizards he'd employed to continue their work.

I doubt he'd use 'local talent' - I'm thinking gnomes, possibly from Lantan, for an engineering project of that magnitude. Plus, they'd be perfect for laying an illusion before doing the actual 'fill'.

You know what - you guys just made an idea *click* in my head - GNOME Inc. They do these sorts of ginormous, unwieldy projects, plus a lot of normal stuff like castle building. They specialize in doing an illusioary 'mock-up' of the finished product, so folks can do a 'walk through' and make whatever changes they want. For an extra fee, they can even make the illusion good enough to be used... temporarilly, of course.

So times running out for the mayor of Neverwinter...
Storyteller Hero Posted - 01 May 2017 : 17:22:05
If it was illusion magic using shadow matter, it could be a solid illusion.

If there was a secret password to turn it on and off, that would make for some awesome brainstorming.




Wooly Rupert Posted - 01 May 2017 : 10:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How about this - its really just an epic-level illusion, and he's scared to death someone might realize it... and start disbelieving.

Conversely, maybe they only used some magic and just built a 'cover' over the thing - a dozen or more feet of rock - instead of filling the whole thing in. Its a lot more interesting having the pit still under there (and trying to keep that secret), then to just say "they filled in the hole".


I like this. It wouldn't have to be entirely filled in to be stable and to appear to have been completely filled, and that leaves some adventuring possibilities, this way.

I'd go more than a dozen feet of rock, myself, but otherwise this is a really nifty idea!
Markustay Posted - 01 May 2017 : 07:20:30
How about this - its really just an epic-level illusion, and he's scared to death someone might realize it... and start disbelieving.

Conversely, maybe they only used some magic and just built a 'cover' over the thing - a dozen or more feet of rock - instead of filling the whole thing in. Its a lot more interesting having the pit still under there (and trying to keep that secret), then to just say "they filled in the hole".

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They filled it with the mystical element handwavium. Its properties vary from use to use, but the main thing that's known about it is that it's far more readily available than unobtainium.



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once thought to be the rarest of elements in the Realms, the preponderance of said material seems to have grown exponentially when lands were exchanged during the Spellplague, and in the century following, so that by 1490 DR it is widely believe that there is now more Handwavium on Toril then all other elements combined".

--- Sir Markov VonSargasm, before the half-asleep Council of Magi who dwelleth upon the Coast


In other news, the new elemental lord of Handwavium - Laque'luztarr - has been seen all over The Realms, and is active in nearly every nook & cranny. He doesn't answer prayers; in fact, some believe he responds by doing the opposite of what people are asking for.



Lol, thanks for making my day (or what remains of it)

Thank You, but Wooly deserves top credits for starting that ball rolling.

I'm surprised the play-on-words even translated enough for you to have gotten it. Who knew my jokes were multilingual.
KanzenAU Posted - 01 May 2017 : 06:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

Ao brought back pieces of Toril from Abeir back to Toril and sent pieces of Abeir from Toril back to Abeir, Sundering the two worlds from the mishmash that the Spellplague had turned them into.


I don't think that was it. It seems like it was more a feat of engineering, per the SCAG:
quote:
He (Dagult) engineered the sealing of the Chasm and the restoration of the High Road, and is seeking other ways to repair and improve the city.

My guess is that it's just good old fashioned earth and stone shoved in there to plug the gap, quarried over the thirty or whatever years Neverember has been rebuilding the city. Hells, short of using wizards, if I had a gap in my city that's how I'd fill it.
Storyteller Hero Posted - 01 May 2017 : 06:14:39
Ao brought back pieces of Toril from Abeir back to Toril and sent pieces of Abeir from Toril back to Abeir, Sundering the two worlds from the mishmash that the Spellplague had turned them into.

EDIT: Apparently it was engineering, not a godly doing.
sfdragon Posted - 01 May 2017 : 03:45:11
I figured AO did it by picking his nose and flinging a booger in the chasm

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