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T O P I C    R E V I E W
KanzenAU Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 08:46:44
Thought this might be of interest to people here, not sure if it's knowledge that has appeared elsewhere.

In the latest official D&D podcast, Matt Sernett clarified that Amaunator & Lathander are indeed different deities. Amaunator usurped his role during the post-Spellplague tumult, but in the Sundering Ao restored Lathander while allowing Amaunator to remain.
Edit: They were described as different deities in the SCAG, but the situation wasn't really clarified very well.

Another interesting point is that Sernett points to similarities in one of Amaunator's holy symbol depictions to the holy symbol of Pelor. Although it sounds like Sernett himself wasn't involved in any decision or discussion about a connection between the two, it's an interesting thesis that such a connection might exist.

More generally, he also talks about how Ao has made divine domains more loose than they were previously - hence we have different gods of death, the dead, etcetera.

The topic of the gods being more distant post-Sundering was also discussed, with gods being more likely to communicate with signs and omens (the altar glows and you hear the sound of twin axes scraping together) than talking directly to their clerics.

All in all, an interesting one. A warning to the faithful however: Sernett is openly a "how the sausage is made" sort of guy, and doesn't mind talking about the problems of changing editions in meta-speak rather than Realms-speak. Not necessarily a problem at all, I just have the feeling it won't be to everyone's taste.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Mith Posted - 10 Jul 2017 : 20:36:51
I find that in collaborated works such as Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, Star Trek--so on, you tend to get a lot of mistakes and corrections. This newest change will only remain so long as everyone thinks it's in everyone else's best interest. My guess is that Wizards didn't want to remove Amaunator for risk of angering the fans or otherwise felt he filled a role. Therefore, rather than kill off one and bring back another, they've gone with this answer.

My position is that Wizards should take the more fluid stance; Amaunator and Lathander may be the same gods and at times this appears to be the case and other times it does not. Perhaps this is because mortals confuse them or because the two are working together or one is at odds with the other. Or it can literally be true; Lathander or Amaunator may have been aspects of each other and split into two different beings. Or they could have been two originally separate entities who have merged and split--perhaps many times.
KanzenAU Posted - 10 Jul 2017 : 06:37:34
Thought I would revive this thread, simply to post that I finally finished The Reaver, and I can confirm that it is never confirmed by a godly presence that Lathander and Amaunator are the same or different. The priesthood of Amaunator claims the return of Lathander is a lie, believing in a cycle between the gods that takes centuries if not longer. Stedd meanwhile believes that Amaunator has turned into Lathander, but himself admits that Lathander never tells him anything directly (except for one appearance in the book), and that his interaction with Stedd as Chosen is more through "quickening" Stedd's own thoughts.

My current take:
The sect of Lathander known as the Sunmasters had their origins in Netheril. When Netheril fell, they began to worship the god Lathander (my guess: a Jhaamdathi god) as Amaunator reborn (LEoF). Lathander ponders the potential of this, but is soon distracted with the Dawn Cataclysm, and spends many centuries after that rebuilding the trust of other gods.

Around 1372, Lathander's thoughts have returned to the Sunmasters and the claim that he is Amaunator reborn. He plans to seize the potential within taking the name of Amaunator, who is that point a corpse in the Astral Sea "awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage" (F&A). He hopes that through taking a new name, he can expand on his faith-base, and perhaps even gain some claim on the portfolios Amaunator once held. Lathander calls his coming "transformation" into Amaunator the Deliverance, hoping it will make him far more powerful - hoping once again to remake the pantheon in his image. He chooses Daelegoth Orndeir to deliver his message of him being reincarnated as Amaunator through the "Risen Sun Heresy" (PoF).

However, Lathander is not always one to think things through, and instead of seizing Amaunator's power he begins to awaken the dead god. Amaunator starts to build power from Daelegoth's miracles in his name in 1374, but remains hidden and silent. Then when Mystra is killed in 1385, Lathander spends much of his power binding Cyric in the Supreme Throne. This weakens him enough for Amaunator to bind Lathander away within his own dominion of the Eternal Sun. As Lathander has already converted most of his priesthood to that of "Amaunator", when Amaunator awakens it is suddenly Lathander without any worshipers, and he is powerless to fight back. Amaunator's clergy, now far more powerful than Lathander's, ensure that worship of Lathander grinds to a trickle throughout the Realms. Lathander had sealed his own fate with the tale of him being Amaunator reborn.

In the Second Sundering, Ao remakes the heavens once more, allowing many "dead" gods to return to the Realms, and Lathander escapes from the Eternal Sun. He sends his power to his mortal Chosen, Stedd, who embarks on renewing his faith throughout the Realms. The clergy of Amaunator remain very opposed to this, but the boy's message of hope and renewal is a powerful one, especially in those lands of the Great Rain where hope is much needed.

Thus, in 5e we have both Lathander and Amaunator. We always did - the cycle is a heresy spread by Lathander, but taken advantage of by Amaunator.
sleyvas Posted - 03 May 2017 : 16:41:12
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I always thought Sebek got short end of the deal when it came to the Mulhorandi pantheon. The mythological Sebek is a complex god, while the Mulhorandi Sebek is a weenie.

Pathfinder restored him to his former glory, which is the one I use.



Just curious (because I know Jack about the mythological version of Sebek), what did he really do that was interesting?
sfdragon Posted - 03 May 2017 : 07:55:25
is it possible that atar of the bedine is another name from some deity from al-qaadim???
LordofBones Posted - 03 May 2017 : 05:52:11
I always thought Sebek got short end of the deal when it came to the Mulhorandi pantheon. The mythological Sebek is a complex god, while the Mulhorandi Sebek is a weenie.

Pathfinder restored him to his former glory, which is the one I use.
sleyvas Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 16:57:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, just because FR's Tyr 'died' doesn't mean other versions of him also died. The multiverse is a BIG place, and there's plenty of room for little 'Tyrlings' to be hiding-out.





Oh yeah, his "death" weighs nothing. I also wonder if he actually "died". Some of the gods that "died" may have all been some kind of serious intrigue (maybe even against their will), in which they actually transferred to Abeir. As I've said, I'm big on the idea that most of the "gods" that disappeared went over to Abeir for one reason or another. Tyr "killing" Helm may very well have been a great lie, aided by Leira and Mask possibly (and to the surprise of Cyric). Tyr dying may also have been a great lie. Lathander's leaving to be replaced by Amaunator may have been a lie. Savras' "death" in dweomerheart may have been a lie. Hell, the whole Bane / Xvim thing could have been Xvim posing as Bane in Toril, meanwhile the weakened Bane went to Abeir whenever "the Black Lord's Cloak" temple in Mourktar was transferred to Abeir (and possibly the tyrant "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" that's returned to Unther has some ties to Bane).

This gives me the option of having many deities to work with over in Abeir for the last hundred years. Just to note them I'm listing them below:

Helm (Heimdall)
Tyr
Lathander
Talos
Leira
Savras
Velsharoon (long story)
Mystra (weakened but there)
Deneir
Bane
Nobanion
The elemental lords will be in both worlds, but neutral still (Kossuth, Grumbar, Istishia, and Akadi)

I'll also be including the Mulhorandi Pantheon as noted below, while leaving it unclear if some of these deities are other deities (i.e. is Geb actually Plutoq or Grumbar).

Anhur (L): God of war, conflict, physical prowess, thunder, rain
Geb (L): God of the earth, miners, mines, mineral resources
Hathor (L): Goddess of motherhood, folk music, dance, the moon, fate
Horus (G): reverting back to his old role
Isis (also called Ishtar)[12] (I): Goddess of weather, rivers, agriculture, love, marriage, good magic
Nephthys (I): Goddess of wealth, trade, protector of children and the dead
Osiris (I): God of vegetation, death, the dead, justice, harvest
Sebek (D): God of river hazards, crocodiles, werecrocodiles, wetlands
Set (I): God of the desert, destruction, drought, night, rot, snakes, hate, betrayal, evil magic, ambition, poison, murder
Thoth (I): God of neutral magic, scribes, knowledge, invention, secrets

and also including Re, reborn, in his old role as ruler of the Pantheon.



I'll also be including the Maztican deities (and leaving it unclear if some of them ARE the elemental lords or vice versa, or separate entities)

Azul (also called Calor): God of rain, water, drunkenness
Eha: Goddess of the wind, spring
Kiltzi: God of health, love, happiness, children
Maztica: Goddess of life and the physical world, she is no longer dead
Nula: Goddess of animals
Plutoq: God of earth, stone, mountains
Qotal: God of goodness, health, protection
Tezca: God of the sun, fire, cooking
Watil: Goddess of plants
Zaltec: God of war, sacrifice

I'd also include some of the "Great Spirits" from the Azuposi of Anchorome
Corn Mother (a bird-woman deity that I equate as being from the aearee)
Moon Mother
Shotokunungwa (whom the Metahel refer to as Thoros, and whose two war twins children in their view are the daughters of Sifya)
Skeleton Man (whom the Mulan think is Jergal)
Sun Father (who everyone has another name for)
Miochin, the embodiment of Summer (whom the Naticans think is Intiri)

Paiyatemu, the Sun Youth/Trickster (a child of the Sun and a mortal woman (the sun "touched her in her sleep), who is a troublesome trickster whose stories are coarse but humorous..... picture Loki before he turned evil. The suppositions about this being are numerous across the various "pantheons" that transferred over.

Shakak, the embodiment of winter (whom I have as a primordial of cold whom the Mulans capture and imprison up near Balduran Bay/Fort Flame)


I'll also be including the sun god Intiri of the Natican folk of Lopango, with various folk wondering if he is just a powerful primordial, and others thinking he is a godly manifestation like the gods of Mulhorand were.

I'm also including several Metahel deities that the Faerunians THINK are various Faerunian deities... and they may be right, or they may be wrong... for instance, this is what I started writing up for the Tharch of the Western Pridelands regarding religion..


In addition, when the metahel travelled with the mulan peoples to leave the Lopango Jungles, the mulan people had been exposed to the Metahel religion. In particular, they held several deities that the mulan people equated to deities of the Faerunian pantheon, and wherever there are temples to one deity in this tharch, there is also a shrine to his/her alternate name. For instance, Sifya, the War Mother, is the Metahel goddess of excellence in battle, and is often associated to the red berries of the rowan ash tree. The mulan people equate this to their goddess known as the Red Knight. The husband of Sifya in the Metahel pantheon is a jealous, raging Thunder god named Thoros, whom the mulan people equate to Talos. The goddess Eldunna, she who grows magical healing mangos with the waters of the goldenheart spring, is thought to be the peace goddess, Eldath. Fraeyollo, lord of spring plantings and the sun blade, is believed to be Lathander. There is also a sentry of the gods, Hemdahl, who steadfastly guards the heavens and a god of blood oaths, Ultar, whom the mulan people equate to Helm and Tyr. Whether these deities are truly metahel deities answering the prayers of the mulan people or vice versa has been something of a debate over the past century. However, what is known is that these deities continued to grant divine magic even after the transfer to Abeir, and therefore they are unlike the many Faerunian deities who went suddenly silent.



Oh, and on the above, obviously not all of these deities will be in use in the United Tharchs (for instance, I don't see the Mulan people worshipping any of the Mulhorandi gods, except possibly Set). However, the people who still reside in Mourktar/Messemprar and the rest of Unther when it transfers over would worship these deities (as well as some of the folk in the city states of Chessenta that transferred over). Similarly, the Tharch of Lopango my have some of the deities of Maztica imported (Watil and Nula for instance), while calling some of them by "Faerunian" names (i.e. Grumbar/Plutoq).
KanzenAU Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 03:33:04
As for the relationship between Amaunator and Eldath, I did a bit more searching...
There is a Garden of Eldath in the Gulthmere Forest near the Vilhon Reach (Cormanthyr-EoE). It's also mentioned that Eldath's "True Grove" can be reached from "various locales in Turmish", as opposed to listing only one locale for most other areas (F&A). Cedarspoke in the Vilhon Reach is also associated with a bastion of Eldath's faith. Although her "Favoured Regions" in the FRCS does not include some areas she is commonly associated with such as the Forest of Tethir, it does include The North, the Vast, and the Vilhon Reach.
The Bedine have a legend that At'ar imprisoned Eldath because she was jealous of her beauty (Anauroch).
Her later faith was known to be small and dispersed (F&A). In fact, Eldath is only a Demipower in 1356 (OGB), though she receives a boost from an unknown source by the time of F&A. She was also True Neutral back in the day, now she's NG since she moved the True Grove to Elysium.
There's also this in SoFS, which creates a connection to Umberlee's wrath (which could be connected to the Jhaamdath tidal wave):
quote:
An old mythic tale within the oral traditions of both the whales and some worshipers of Eldath names the full moon as Olone, a former lover of the Green Goddess. He was once a mortal merman who fought Umberlee to protect his lover from her wrath, and she evilly changed him into a bubble to rise up, far away from his beloved ocean. Olone and Eldath remain ever apart, but his staring eye coolly lights the depths without disturbing them as he watches his love. Even when worshipers of Selūne try to educate them otherwise about the moon and godly powers, they cling to this old romantic myth, and the whalesongs about Olone also keep the name alive.

We also know that druids of Eldath are still active in the Vilhon Reach in 75 DR (Vilhon Reach).

Theory: Eldath is a god of Jhaamdath, the current Vilhon Reach. Amaunator, bitter after his faithful abandon him in the fall of Netheril, sees many of them flee to Jhaamdath and embrace the faith of Eldath. In his bitterness, as one of his final strong actions, he binds Eldath away in the House of the Moon (Elah'zad). Soon after, Lathander encourages Dharien to build a new world, enraging the elves, who use the power of Umberlee to flood Jhaamdath. This destroys one god of Jhaamdath - Murdane - and it would have taken out Eldath too, if Amaunator had not bound her away (from this the legend of Olone is born). However, as Amaunator's power wanes he struggles to contain the goddess, and she frees herself not long after the flood.

Edit: the story of Amaunator being jealous of Eldath's beauty doesn't really fit his profile very well - perhaps Eldath was becoming worshipped in Netheril before the Fall, and Amaunator more became jealous of her rising influence.

Edit 2: The 75 DR bit in the Vilhon Reach is also the first timeline reference we have for Eldath (unless we assume the At'ar-Eldath story is true and took place while Netheril still stood, but it may be from the period of Amaunator's decline). With the first record of her appearing in the Vilhon Reach, that's another point towards her being a deity of Jhaamdath.
KanzenAU Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 00:46:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).


Ah. Good to know. That trilogy's next on my list... that is, after I finish the Sundering, Brimstone Angels, and the Avatar Quintilogy...
Markustay Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 20:28:48
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Tyr, like the others, is alive again in 5e, listed again as the god of justice.
OR MAYBE, just like the grammatical error that caused problems for Aumanator ("for all time"), Tyr is really just supposed to be the god of "Just Ice" - he's a freaking' deity of cold!

I need to take my ADHD meds now...
CorellonsDevout Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 20:14:10
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).



Empyrean Odyssey, and I seem to remember them showing his death, too, or at least the invasion of his realm.

Tyr, like the others, is alive again in 5e, listed again as the god of justice.
Markustay Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 20:05:23
Well, just because FR's Tyr 'died' doesn't mean other versions of him also died. The multiverse is a BIG place, and there's plenty of room for little 'Tyrlings' to be hiding-out.

sleyvas Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 18:05:23
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).
Markustay Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 16:12:00
I hadn't meant for that to be anywhere near that long - sorry, guys. Once my brain latches on to a new thought I just run away with it.

The one thing I forgot was power levels - I would imagine only Greater Gods would do the 'multispheric' thing, simply because they have the raw power to send individual Avatars to different worlds, wthout worrying about getting destroyed.

Gods of lesser power could do so, but they run the risk of getting permanently destroyed (well, as permanent as such things get in the D&Dverse). I believe the rule was that they get one Avatar for each point of DvR, so if a lesser god - lets say with a DvR of just '6' - attempted this, then they'd be without that one 'pip' of power... making them only a '5' and of demipower status 'at home'. Plus, the higher the level the god, the easier it would be for them to recover from losing one of these Avatars (that DvR point of power). They could 'heal' it quicker, because their churches (or what their portfolios cover) are so vast.

So lets say Bane DID start out in The Forgotten Realms. I know everyone here is happy with that synopsis. He's not the type of guy to 'settle' for anything. He'd bide his time and wait until he was of greater God status, and then try to spread to other worlds. All that makes perfect sense - he may have only just started 'making moves' in 'The Great Game' just around the time of 1e. And am I the only one who thinks he is exactly the same as Hextor (in GH)? I recall reading in the early 4e stuff (those 'intro' books - you remember those, right? Giant advertisements that WotC forced us to buy, thinking they were actual game-books, rather than them just bragging about how 'kewl' they were?) that 'Bane' was just their placeholder name for a 4e archtype 'god of tyranny', and in the end, they just kept it (even though he wasn't exactly the same as FR's Bane... {sigh}) Why the hell didn't they use Hextor, who was the same thing, and ALREADY CORE because of 3e? Did no-one who works there even consider Hextor? Or did they just hate-on GH just as much (if not more) than they did FR?

Was everything screwed-up JUST because someone over there liked the name 'Bane' better than 'Hextor'?

Micro-rant over. Sorry. Thats been sticking in my craw for a decade now.


Aside:
Oh... and by the way... my money is on Bane and Hextor also being the same guy, or rather, they have both come from the same 'archtype' (which may actually be Gruumsh/Talos). Hextor is just a more 'primitive' version of the archtype - we still have the 'orc' thing going on, but he's almost more like a 'dire orc'.
Markustay Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 15:47:57
That would be the simplest solution - just say 'returned Lathander' is actually Pelor, but timeline-wise that doesn't work because of that stupid pic in the GHotR, which is what got this whole ball started rolling in the first place (back when THAT book came out, which wasn't even 4e - it was late 3e).

Unless, of course, that was Pelor sending some of his priests to FR just to start that heresy. THAT has possibilities...
Does anyone know what happened to Lathander during the ToT?

I like the idea that there are really two Pelors (just like there are two Banes) - there is the 'archtype' sun god, and then there'd be lots of local Pelors, that may or may not be going by that name, in various Crystal Spheres. Heck, Lathander and Aumanator could have just been two different flavors of the same archtype (we have at least one other instance of that - Herne and Malar; Herne appears to be the name of the archtype, and Malar was 'local', although I suppose it could be the other way around).
Hmmmmmm... a stray thought just crossed my mind. I mentioned two different Shevarash earlier (in the thread) - perhaps archtypes' don't even worry about stuff like race, being that they are 'primal' spirits. What if Shevarash was a Chosen of Herne, in his 'Hunter' aspect?

Which brings me to something else I was thinking about as I fell asleep last night - something i touched upon (here or in another thread), but then didn't go any further with: 'multispheric gods'. I am really starting to think there is no such thing. Its very artificial, doesn't really make sense in terms of story, and REALLY doesn't make sense when you start applying rules to everything. Wouldn't it just be easier to say thats a mortal concept, and not a real thing, and just figure we have these 'archtypes' all living in the Planescape setting, and they send various, assorted 'Ubertars' to different worlds, trying to establish (or maintaining) their faith?

Some gods may find it better to focus on one world - 'quality over quantity', while other (like the draconics) would find it better just to 'be everywhere' (like fast-food franchises - no real substance, just 'on every street corner'). Gods wouldn't use a silly term like 'multispheric', because unless they were banned from a very specific area (Sigil, Toril, Athas, etc) by an Overpower, they can come and go anywhere in the multiverse as they please. They'd just be affected by the 'Dogma' (I've discussed that elsewhere - basically, 'mortal belief' actually shapes reality) of each Domain they enter (be it Sphere, godly demesne, or plane). Thus, in most cases, its WAY safer to just stick to one world, where you can shape that belief system over the course of countless millennia.

These arguments might be easier if we just toss that concept out, and assume all the gods are just one huge group, and things like pantheons and religions are mortal conceits (fostered by gods with agendas). There is but one 'Bane' in Planescape (The Great Wheel), and one 'Pelor', etc., and FR has (at least) one 'Baneling' and GH has a 'Peloring'. Instead of thinking about these gods through the distorted lens of their settings, why not just assume that ALL setting versions of a deity are not the real ones? They are all just aspects sent to those worlds, and on some, they might have different aspects, due to the nature of that world, or the other deities interested in it. And they could even have VERY different aspects - even to the point of fighting - if it serves their purposes to do so.

'The Gods' are nothing more than a bunch of super-powered maniacs that are playing a vast 'chess' game with mortals (and worlds), and some are playing 'the long game', while others just want to sow chaos (we've all played with people like that). They send little bits of their power into mortals, causing their ascension (exarchs), and if any of these 'work out' (gain their own followers and churches eventually), they 'reel them back in' and have a new power source for their 'eternal game' (like when you grab 'resources hexes' in a game - thats what worlds would be to them). So maybe we should just forget about Pelor being from GH, and Bane being from FR, and just consider Planescape/The Great Wheel the TRUE setting, and everything else is just "The God's Playground". We'd have no way of knowing who's who from day to day, because the deities could strike deals and it could all change (some might stay the same for thousands of years, while others would revel in the chaos of switching identities, worlds, and even portfolios constantly).Its like when countries swap tracks of land (or it gets taken over) - the people living there usually barely notice the change; they just continue to go about their lives like they always did.

And one last thing - gods who get to used to this 'fragmented' stand the risk of 'losing themselves', going crazy and/or dropping off into a comatose state. This is what i think happened to the World Serpen...
I just though of something! Shattered/Sundered 'First World', fragmented World Serpent! I've been calling that dimension/Ordial/Siderial/'Elder god' 'The Ymir' in my musings, but it already had a name all along! The 3rd dimension - the 'material Plane' - is really the World Serpent. We have to look past the 'racial trappings' and realize all these uber-gods are really just so much energy (and in this case, matter). What the Giants (and later mortals) have called 'Ymir' has really been what the scalyfolk have referred to as The world Serpent all along - the half-dead, shattered remnants of the first Overgod death.

Thus, in a weird way, true Dragons are all Chosen - they contain tiny little bits of the 'god energy' of the comatose World Serpent. They'd be like DvR 0, and Lung (Asian) dragons would be a little higher (and some might actually make it into the true godly ranks).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Document on the Faith of Amaunator complete. Collects info from 23 sources, all referenced. Some extra stuff of my own, but easy to tell from the other stuff because it's unreferenced. Hope it's of use!

You ARE nuts... but in a good way.
KanzenAU Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 15:36:22
Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.
sleyvas Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 15:21:34
Just noting couple things here.

Netheril falls, roughly around that time Amaunator begins to weaken... same time Lathander and Tyr both start to strengthen.... then ToT happens and within 20 years Amaunator starts to strengthen... Spellplague... Lathander and Tyr both disappear again.... Sundering... Amaunator weakening and Lathander and Tyr reappear.

Both instances as well, around this time, a "Loki-like" deity was gaining a strong foothold (Valigan Thirdborn around the time of arrival of Tyr and Cyric during the time of upheaval).

On the Tyche/Tymora/Beshaba thing... assuming that the god was actually split rather than some alternative, wonder if Beshaba holds any feelings for her "Daddy"... Moander.

Lastly, there's several references to Selune hurling light all over. It kind of makes me wonder if (unlike in our world), the moon actually generates light... such that if the sun were to burn out, there would still be light but no heat.
KanzenAU Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 14:09:36
Document on the Faith of Amaunator complete. Collects info from 23 sources, all referenced. Some extra stuff of my own, but easy to tell from the other stuff because it's unreferenced. Hope it's of use!
KanzenAU Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 06:47:21
Added references to the first 4 pages of my Amaunator compilation, for those interested. I'll finish off referencing it over the next couple days.

For another cray theory, how about if the "First World" Pelor of the Nentir Vale setting fractured himself when he started focusing on other worlds? Oerth got all the "good" bits, whereas Abeir-Toril got the side of him which is obsessed with keeping things in order (like hiding away shards of the Living Gate)?

Or another cray theory: Lathander hasn't returned - the new guy is Pelor, and he's stealing Lathander's name!

So many cray theories in my head right now...
Markustay Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 05:27:41
There is only ONE of each artifact - thats been the same down through the editions (although one might argue there is supposed to only be one Terrasque, as well). You might spin it that an artifact could 'possibly be' associated with a similar god in different Crystal Spheres, but from everything else I've ever seen (and I've been around this game since 1975), an artifact - or 'relic' in the case of divine versions - remain TRUE to whatever being created them, regardless of sphere (for instance, the Hand and Eye of Vecna would still be those things, and would never be associated with Velsharoon... or Acerak). When an artifact has served its purpose (whatever mysterious purpose it appeared for), it disappears, and reappears somewhere else, and not necessarily on the same world.

If anything I would thinks thats proof positive right there Pelor has some sort of presence in The Realms, even if he isn't any of FR's sun gods. I've just been 'playing' with the idea all this time, throwing out 'what if' scenarios, but that right there makes me go, "Hmmmmm..."

Here's an interesting factoid - all of the original D&D artifacts were connected with Greyhawk, simply because that was the ONLY AD&D world TSR was publishing in 1e. But when the 2e Book of Artifacts came out, quite a lot of them ended up in FR - especially the 'eastern' ones. The artifacts CAN 'change worlds', but their function and history remain intact, no matter what.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He has a summer home?

And Mystra is Wee Jas.

Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator.



Pholtus has the sun as part of his portfolio.

I just double-checked, and you are right.
How the heck did I miss that the first time through? I was consciously looking for it!

Strangely, I can't even find a GH page on the poor bastich - the two I've checked; one was for Planescape, and the other was for converting Oerth/GH to Pathfinder (so I can't trust the portfolios on that one, since its conversion material). Now Pelor, you can find TONS of stuff on.

He's Pelorific.

No-one liked my spin on Aumanator as Horus-Re? Heck, at least I got feedback on him as Pelor. Just goes to show, people don't give an Osquip's arse what you do to the poor Old Empires.

What if Aum WAS Pholtus in GH, and in 5e he's handed over all of that to Pelor, and the deal was that he would take over Pelor's budding church in the Realms (of course, I'm now tying this to my Nentir Vale conversion - sorry). With all the chaos we've had in the past hundred years or so (more, if you go back to the ToT), I think Ao has more of an 'open door' policy toward in interloping than he ever had in the past, and with all the land and people getting swapped about, pelor - along with dozens of other gods - may have gotten their foot in the door that way, because some of their faithful wound up on Toril (and not necessarily from Oerth - Pelor went multispheric in 4e, because he was 'core', just like Bane).

So even if you don't like the Nentir Vale material and don't plan to use any of that, you can just figure enough Pelorites 'got through', to make Aumanator notice, and perhaps want them to start his 'return'. As I said, tons of different ways to spin it - the lore is fairly modular these days. Take what you like, and leave the rest. Personally, I've never not allowed any gods to be worshiped, in any setting I've run (under several different systems). The more the merrier, I say. My son ran a cleric of Kord back in 3.5, and now I have canonical excuse for his presence in the Realms (we have a canonical excuse for EVERYTHING now, even different versions of the same gods).

I guess FR has become the a'la carte setting.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 04:37:29
^Right lol.

Certain things are canon and have stayed fairly consistent, but other things are vague or glossed over completely (especially now). And, as Markustay said, not even the gods know everything that is going on. This is evident during the recent Sundering, when they weren't sure what was happening, which is part of the reason Chosen of various deities were appearing.
KanzenAU Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 04:25:59
Pelor connections I know of:
Faiths and Avatars has a very similar symbol for both gods. Counterpoint: they're still a bit different in design.
In Power of Faerun, Daelegoth Orndeir finds a relic of Amaunator called the Shard of the Sun (from Complete Divine) - which is an artifact of Pelor in that book. Counterpoint: the item should be assumed to be reworked for FR.
Image of priest people have noted in GHotR. Counterpoint: reused art.
SCAG: Amaunator's holy symbol is exactly the 4e "First World" Pelor symbol on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator.

I doubt there will ever be anything concrete in canon about it, but it's an interesting idea to play with. The gods are quite different in outlook of course - but gods are beyond mortal understanding, right? :P
LordofBones Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 03:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He has a summer home?

And Mystra is Wee Jas.

Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator.



Pholtus has the sun as part of his portfolio.
Markustay Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 19:27:20
When I finally do the write-up for the Nentir Vale conversion stuff, I am going to leave it fuzzy whether Pelor is Lathander or Aumanator, or even something new (to FR). I can think whatever I want for my version of The Realms (and I am getting sorely tempted to start running it again, what with all this excellent talk around here lately), but I plan to host the finished conversion map + notes over on the DM's Guild, so 'interpretable lore' probably works best for the largest number of people. Trying to get a WIP of that up on DeviantART today... but I keep adding more stuff (lake names right now, and a few 'encounter locales' from some 5e maps).

About Pelor-as-Ra (or Aumanator, etc.), or multiple 'Banes', or deities using more than one name (not seeing the problem with that one, really - some use multiple aliases on the same world, some go by the same name everywhere {Ptah); every god is different), or any other "this one can't be that one because of the timeline". None of that actually matters - gods take-over the churches, portfolios, and even the NAMES of other gods all the time. FR lore is rife with it, and just about everyone here (myself included) is forgetting about that. I fixed the lore regarding Shevarash (appearing in one story TENS of thousands of years before he should have) by simply saying 'The Hunter' is a title more than one elven deity has worn. It doesn't really matter what happened to the first one - or if there were fifty others in-between - what matters is that there was one, a long time ago, and now there is another. Once again, mortals never know the truth of these things. Heck, other deities rarely know the whole truth regarding these things.

So the 'real' Ra may have interloped over with the rest of the Mulan pantheon(s), but Ra died during the Orcgate wars in -1071 DR. Horus took on the mantle of 'Horus-Re', and was "greatly changed after this". Who's to say Hoar isn't really Horus, and joined the Faerūnian Pantheon, whilst Aumanator went south and grabbed Ra's old portfolio (basically, Aumanator made Horus an 'offer he couldn't refuse'). Thus, it has really been Aumanator as Horus-Re this whole time. Those were the former lands of the Imaskari, where "gods dare not dwell" (or some such) - I'm sure more than just one deity was happy when Imaskar fell and made a play to set themselves up as part of the new pantheons (something the Orcs made much easier, inadvertantly). And maybe, after the fall of Netheril, Aumanator just washed his hands of the Heartlands altogether, and focused on the Old Empires. Then, after their heyday was over and those empires start to wane, he looks north again and decides its time to head home (getting a few priests to start the heresy, and one to create the 'new sun' which caused a spike in belief, and allowed him to come back into the Faerūnian lands he had abandoned).

There is a million and one ways we can re-spin the lore, without actually ignoring it. Thats why canon isn't really as 'set in stone' as we once thought it was; with gods and magic (and elves and Ao mucking-about with the timestream), 'reality' is highly subjective to the era you're living (playing) in. Even in the RW, history isn't 'the truth' - 99% of it is "someone's best guess". I think Napoleon said it best: "History is a set of lies agreed upon". So, just by fudging some 'hitherto unrevealed' details, we can take canon and mangle it any which way we want, without actually changing 'the facts' (politicians - and media - do it all the time; you just re-flavor an event and it looks completely different to people).

EDIT:
About Murdane, and any other 'dead gods' - just because we have no lore saying they've come back, doesn't actually mean they can't. An "absence of facts" doesn't really prove anything at all.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 18:51:41
Yeah, I know, that's why I was merely speculating ^^;
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 18:47:08
It'd be nice if there was a connection there, but considering how many plotlines and such were simply ignored in the various edition changes, I'm doubting it'll ever be mentioned again.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 18:18:36
Tymora's Luck is a good read, but I enjoyed the Finder books as a whole.

F&P stated that Lathander was in the process of taking the same steps again that brought about the Dawn Cataclysm. Of course this hasn't been touched on since, but with the Deliverance and Lathander becoming Amaunataur for a time, I have to wonder if his "steps" had anything to do with these events (a long shot those this might be). Lathander and Amaunataur are separate now, and portfolios, as mentioned earlier in this scroll, are more fluid now. Whatever Lathander's "image" of what the pantheon should look like is, we now once again have a full-fledged pantheon (though Murdane, the deity who was killed in the Dawn Cataclysm, seems to have remained dead), and while Lathander/Amaunataur couldn't have been the sole cause, it certainly doesn't hurt to speculate what, if any influence he had on the second Sundering. After all, he is the god of new beginnings, and, after the second Sundering, there was a "new dawn", of sorts.

The Sundering was caused by Ao, too, reworking things yet again, and it left the gods scrambling and trying to figure out what was going on, but the Deliverance, and later the events leading up to and during the Sundering, could have been influenced in part by these "steps" Lathander was taking. The Deliverance divided the church of Lathander, with some believing the whole thing heresy, but then it happened, and for about a century, Lathander was Amaunataur. Then, the Sundering happened, and they became separate entities once more. I can't help but wonder at the connection, however loose of a connection it may be.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I agree that it's possible, I just don't particularly see the use in inventing a non-canon explanation for something that already has a canon explanation. The canon explanation could be a lie or a half-truth, absolutely, but I personally prefer to not go against established canon except when there are contradictions in the lore, which there aren't in the case of Tyche being split into Tymora and Beshaba.

It's still an interesting theory, and I've said my piece on it, so please continue!



I can did that. I'd say, though, that it's not as much a non-canon explanation as it is an expansion on a canon one.

As I've commented before, if there's nothing in canon that definitively addresses something, then you have a gray area there to play in. Nothing in canon says there isn't a werecat priestess of Selūne named Terielle Nashirn among the Lords of Waterdeep -- so canon is not violated by putting that character in that position.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:19:49
About the Pelor/Amaunator thing... I've been avoiding that one because I'm weak on Greyhawk stuff. I would question, though, why the different names if they're the same entity -- other multispheric deities use the same name all over the place.
Wrigley Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 16:09:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.

I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).

In his entry in F&P it says that some sages believe "he went into the east". I take that as Kara-Tur, but it could be relative; if Aumanator was only know in the Western Heartlands, than anything east (and south) of that could be construed as 'into the east' (so even if the entry says 'the eastern realms/Kara-Tur', they could have just been mistaken about how far he went). I like him as Ra, and its funny, because I was thinking about that as well, earlier today. If he is indeed Pelor, Pelor is closely associated with Rao, another GH god (although Rao isn't Ra/Re... as far as we know. It could just be another Alias Pelor operates under (with different portfolios, although they do compliment Ra's), or it could just be another one of his many 'ascended' followers (another deity - Mayaheine - is considered the other god he's closest too, and that one definitely was one of his 'saints' before gaining more power/worship).


Amaunator being Ra means he had to be there much sooner to be the main god of Mulhorandi people even before their abduction. I have them as original population of Zakhara so I do not deal with multispheric Pelor/stuff. Other mulhorandi gods are originaly beast lords he possibly elevated?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)


As Tyche was a goddess of Fate I can easily imagine that some people needed more specific gods to relate to and thus Tymora and Beshaba were born. It was surely a work of Tyche and we can say what way they came to be goddesses. From what was written in novels I do not see a problem contradicting this version as Wooly already explained.

For Bane I have him originaly as pure orc (Vorbyx?) from Moonsea who deliberately hide this to relate to more followers. He got together with Netheries necromancer and calimshan tiefling around Westgate and started a legendary trip to the stars :-)
(I have used Murghom necromancer origin for Velsharoon)
Wrigley Posted - 23 Apr 2017 : 15:50:04
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act).

I wouldn't be surprised if Bane had some involvement with Dharien - he's a tyrant etc - but is this derived from any specific sources? Interested if there's a tie-in, if there is it would be one of the earliest FR Bane's actions as a god.
quote:
We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander.

This thread is talking about the Three-Faced Sun heresy, the Dawn Cataclysm, AND the Procession of Justice? Damn, this is some good conversation!


It is only a conjecture. There was a military coup in region we know Bane started with right after he became god.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Tyr and the Procession of Justice is complicated. Faiths and Pantheons has Tyr coming to Toril in -247 DR (8 years after the tidal wave), leading a force of archons to pacify what was the lawless ruins of Jhaamdath. I don't think this started the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think it was a part of it.

However, Prayers of the Faithful has Tyr's worship occuring in Toril at around -2,700 DR, with his mightiest priests residing in modern Turmish - then likely part of Jhaamdath.Ed has expanded on this, saying that Tyr was a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, and he's been around since at least around -3,700 DR.


I personaly do not like Tyr for he seems to me redundant and too much into the face copy of RW (I know there are other RW gods but Tyr hits me the most) and I have basicaly used Torm instead. I see Procession of Justice as a birth of Triad and I am including Lathander for he was strangely overlooked by Triad anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I take this as that Tyr was always a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, but he only physically came to Toril in -247 DR in the Procession of Justice, which was a response to the destruction of Jhaamdath. I believe that both the tidal wave and the Procession may be part of the long divine conflict later known as the Dawn Cataclysm.
quote:
It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.

This is actually an interesting expansion on the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm being partly Lathander expanding his worship throughout the world. The founding of Chondathan (later Saerloon) and other cities during the years of the Dawn Cataclysm (my theory -300 to 700 DR) could be linked to the forceful exuberance of Lathander. I think it's too much to say that Lathander was solely responsible for the founding of these cities, but I think his Church may have been an important part of these societies, pushing for expansion.



He did not directly found the cities but his domain are new beginings so he supported that as much as he could for he needed to be advertised.
For the dating of DC I still believe we could agree about aproximate start and we have only mention about Myth Drannor as consequence of it. Such a large undertaking as DC have usualy very long period when actions taken echoes and are felt directly or indirectly over many years and it is hard to say when it ended.

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