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T O P I C    R E V I E W
AuldDragon Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 10:35:26
I've been a huge fan of the Faiths & Avatars format created by Julia Martin and Eric Boyd, and I always wanted a fourth book to be published, companion to Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. Since there's no chance now of seeing an official one, I decided to create my own, updating the deities from DMGR4 Monster Mythology, as well as some others. I write these from the point of view of 2nd Edition, incorporating primarily only that canon, and focusing on the whole 2e multiverse, so where possible, I mention canon from all 2nd Edition settings. I post the main entries on my blog, and then will update this thread.

Bugbear (and Other) Pantheon:
Grankhul the Hunter: http://bit.ly/1TTie59
Hruggek the Decapitator: http://bit.ly/1XX3cus
Meriadar the Patient One: http://bit.ly/1RTjyNC
Skiggaret the Deranged One: http://bit.ly/1X3bgdU
Stalker, the Hateful Shadow: http://bit.ly/1O7VbB3

Goblin Pantheon:
Bargrivyek the Peacekeeper: http://bit.ly/1U3efkG
Khugorbaeyag the Overseer: http://bit.ly/24ne4Cb
Maglubiyet the Mighty One: http://bit.ly/1TNW2UB
Nomog-Geaya the General: http://bit.ly/1ss21aV

Kobold and Urd Pantheon:
Dakarnok the Raider: http://bit.ly/1UBjZAN
Gaknulak the Trapmaker: http://bit.ly/1TTjqVU
Kuraulyek the Horned Thief: http://bit.ly/1PaE0de
Kurtulmak the Cunning: http://bit.ly/1PsgPAp

Orcish Pantheon:
Bahgtru the Leg-Breaker: http://bit.ly/1UmIK0I
Gruumsh One-Eye: http://bit.ly/1VCla5n
Ilneval the Horde Leader: http://bit.ly/24nfwV7
Luthic the Cave Mother: http://bit.ly/1UBjd6N
Shargaas the Night Lord: http://bit.ly/1sTJO5O
Yurtrus White-Hands: http://bit.ly/25FbI7s

The Ordning:
Annam the All-Father: http://bit.ly/1U0cJOR
Diancastra, the Wanton Wanderer: http://bit.ly/1PaEzUo
Grolantor the Steading Lord: http://bit.ly/1U3fGQ5
Grond Peaksmasher: http://bit.ly/24nggt6
Hiatea the Huntress: http://bit.ly/1XpIe9p
Iallanis the Tender One: http://bit.ly/1X3cvd4
Karontor the Deformed One: http://bit.ly/1O7VU5v
Memnor the Deceiver: http://bit.ly/1UBjLcS
Skoreaus Stonebones, the Living Rock: http://bit.ly/1UBjLcS
Stronmaus the Storm Lord: http://bit.ly/289ALyn
Surtr the Black: http://bit.ly/289ABqP
Thrym, the King of Ice: http://bit.ly/25Corob

Gnoll Pantheon:
Gorellik the Loner: http://bit.ly/1UBjXZy
Refnara the Moon-Biter: http://bit.ly/1PspJ11
Yeenoghu the Demon Prince of Gnolls: http://bit.ly/1UBk87a

Ogre Pantheon:
Mirklak the Orcslayer: http://bit.ly/1VCpPnK
Vaprak the Destroyer: http://bit.ly/1TTm1zk
Ysshara the Lorekeeper: http://bit.ly/1t7fJk7

Interlopers on the Giant Pantheon:
Baphomet, Demon Lord of Minotaurs: http://bit.ly/1U3lSrf
Kostchtchie, the Demon Prince of Wrath: http://bit.ly/1XpQeHa

Draconic Pantheon (Io's Children):
Aasterinian, the Messenger of Io: http://bit.ly/1XpQuWH
Arcanic the Learned: http://bit.ly/1WzDlK9
Astilabor the Hoardmistress: http://bit.ly/1PaJGDQ
Bahamut the Platinum Dragon: http://bit.ly/2gcEmW6
Chronepsis the Death Dragon: http://bit.ly/1O7Yx7l
Elemtia the Tempest: http://bit.ly/1U3m1uJ
Faluzure the Night Dragon: http://bit.ly/1ZcdvtA
Garyx the Firelord: http://bit.ly/1X3g6In
Hlal the Jester: http://bit.ly/2aI5MoG
Io the Ninefold Dragon: http://bit.ly/2iuNgmv
Kalzareinad, The Keeper of Dark Wonders: http://bit.ly/1VCqHc5
Kereska Wonderbringer: http://bit.ly/2fbhbMv
Lendys the Balancer: http://bit.ly/1U3nzos
Rais, The Cogitative One: http://bit.ly/20Y18Sg
Sardior the Ruby Dragon: http://bit.ly/2bMvFiS
Tamara the Merciful: http://bit.ly/2dMW2KH
Task the Wrester: http://bit.ly/29aUTaK
Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon: http://bit.ly/22DC4Bx
Zorquan the High One: http://bit.ly/1UjK9W9

Aerial Deities:
Jazirian the Eternal Serpent: http://bit.ly/1UmSlo6
Koriel the Vigilant: http://bit.ly/2kszfGg
Stillsong the Singing Sphere: http://bit.ly/2pAAh5J

Aquatic Deities:
Anguileusis the Abiding One: http://bit.ly/2lcZsdz
Blibdoolpoolp
Demogorgon
Eadro the Deliverer: http://bit.ly/Eadro
Ilxendren the Demonray: http://bit.ly/2svK8MH
Panzuriel
Persana
Sekolah the Great Shark: http://bit.ly/2iyzGR3
Surminare the Selkie Queen: http://bit.ly/2nsA7cU
Trishina the Waverider: http://bit.ly/1t7h0rg
Water Lion the Sharkslayer: http://bit.ly/2x7BNwt

Avian Deities:
Krocaa the Crimsonfeather: http://bit.ly/2BL3ddK
Quorlinn the Filcher: http://bit.ly/2iTi41K
Remnis
Syranita, Mistress of the Aarakocra: http://bit.ly/2qFphWC

Reptilian and Amphibian Deities:
Laogzed the Devourer: http://bit.ly/2vo4pox
Merrshaulk
Parrafaire the Naga Prince: http://bit.ly/2epLsHv
Ramenos the Great Frog: http://bit.ly/1sTUIsi
Semuanya
Sess'innek the Emperor Lizard: http://bit.ly/2EuSHcW
Shekinester the Three-Faced Queen: http://bit.ly/Shekinester

Centaur Pantheon:
Brilros
Chitza-Atlan
Fanthros
Kheiron
Linroth
Naharra
Skerrit the Hoofed Lord: http://bit.ly/1t7gQQH

Lycanthrope Pantheon:
Balador
Daragor
Eshebala
Ferrix
Squerrik the Ratlord: http://bit.ly/24nmVDV

Dark Fae Powers:
Cegilune
The Queen of Air and Darkness

Seelie Court:
Caoimhin
Damh
Eachthighern
Emmantiensien
Fionnghuala the Mistress of Swans: http://bit.ly/20Y1bNS
Nathair Sgiathach
Oberon
Squelaichie
Titania
Verenestra

Beholder Pantheon:
Great Mother
Gzemnid

Deities “missing” from Demihuman Deities:
Diinkarazan
Diirinka
Klikral
Nebelun the Meddler: http://bit.ly/1TO1req

Illithid Pantheon:
Ilsensine
Maanzecorian

Undead Deities:
Kanchelsis
Mellifleur

Miscellaneous Underdark Deities:
The Dark God
The Elder Elemental God
Juiblex
Piscaethces
Psilofyr
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
LordofBones Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 08:06:22
The naga don't really seem to have any bad interactions with the Vedic pantheon. Garuda hates them all, but conversely both Vasuki and Ananta Sesha, both nagaraja, are friendly with Shiva and Vishnu respectively. Ananta Sesha is notable because in addition to being Vishnu's living throne/couch/canopy, he also often incarnates alongside Vishnu to serve as brother or supporter to Vishnu's avatars, while Vasuki - in addition to helping the asura and the devas churn amrta, the nectar of immortality - spends his time coiled around Shiva's throat.

Yes, that snake around Shiva's throat in religious art is actually a naga god-king.

AuldDragon Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 05:24:18
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I think Set went waaay beyond 'selfish douche' when he murdered his brother and dismembered him.



Well, if his pops hadn't shafted him in the inheritance by giving all the good land to Osiris and all the crappy land to Set, he wouldn't have had to resort to such measures. It's all Ra's fault, really. ;)

Jeff

(This has been a paid advert of the Set Rehabilitation Fund.)
AuldDragon Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 05:11:58
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

-AuldDragon

(Hey, long time no see)

Very interesting write-up of Shekinester, although as we discussed, you didn't include Ssharstrune, although he (it?) may be just Toril-specific.


He and the whole "World Serpent" thing are post-2e, so outside the scope of the project. I would consider much of that FR-specific viewpoints (much as the nagas have a different interpretation of some things compared to couatl and the Vedic followers).

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I thought other aspects of Shekinester, would be alied with other aspects of Kali/Parvati/Durga (Shakti) - specifically Preserver with Parvati, and the Empowerer with Durga.

I also think now Shekinester could have an eninimity, or relation in the Weaver aspect with Shaktari, who is worshipped by some Naga.

Especially that Shaktari takes on may similar themes as Shekinester.


I'm limiting myself to the AD&D material on the Vedic deities until I can do the research I want, and they aren't covered in the material, so I don't (yet) know how they might interact with Shekinester.

Jeff
AuldDragon Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 05:00:15
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

D&D kind of muddies the waters; Sobek and Apep should definitely not be demipowers. Pathfinder's version of Sobek is far closer to the real myth of the crocodile god than the cowardly sycophant of the Mulhorandi pantheon, while Apep should either be a greater power or something equivalent to Jormungandr or Dendar - a cosmic horror intrinsicly tied to his pantheon.

Set himself is generally overhyped as a villain. Yes, he is a fratricidal monster, but he's a valued member of the Egyptian pantheon and the protector of Ra. In myth, he and Horus eventually buried the hatchet.


The Realms' versions of the Egyptian gods have a good excuse for being different than their "real" counterparts, though. As for Set and Horus making up, that's not what I would call accurate. Certain royal dynasties saw Set differently than other royal dynasties, which altered his portrayals during their reigns; they didn't have the negative views that previous and some later dynasties saw him. The D&D game can't easily handle these contradictions, though.

The bigger issue I have is that the game associates him with snakes, which is not accurate to the mythology as far as I can tell, and completely ignores the Set animal. To be honest, I've been resisting working on the Egyptian pantheon these last couple months, since I spent much of January in the country visiting some of the spectacular monuments. :)

Jeff
Baltas Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 03:20:22
- LordofBones

You are aware it's also one of the reasons Freyja is there?
LordofBones Posted - 04 Apr 2018 : 02:31:19
Please, everyone knows the reason Aerdrie Fenya spends her time in Ysgard is because the men of the Norse pantheon are swole as all hell.
Baltas Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 19:54:58
-AuldDragon

(Hey, long time no see)

Very interesting write-up of Shekinester, although as we discussed, you didn't include Ssharstrune, although he (it?) may be just Toril-specific.

I thought other aspects of Shekinester, would be alied with other aspects of Kali/Parvati/Durga (Shakti) - specifically Preserver with Parvati, and the Empowerer with Durga.

I also think now Shekinester could have an eninimity, or relation in the Weaver aspect with Shaktari, who is worshipped by some Naga.

Especially that Shaktari takes on may similar themes as Shekinester.

- Markustay

I personally, connect Aerdie Fenya with Freyja - Aerdrie Faenya's very name, seems to be call back to Freyja - "Fenya", even sounds like a corruption/alteration of Freyja, and Aerdie, being a corruption of Erda/Jord, who often is thought to be the mother of Freyja (ie Erda being the same as Nerthus/Njordr's sister-wife). So Aerdie Fenya, could be in reverse order, basically a version of "Freyja Erdadottir" - Freya, Daughter of Erda. Aerdrie Faenya, even sonce earliest lore, spends half of her time in Ysgard, and has a domain there. Freyja, also since irst edition, has a Falcon as a symbol. So I think there is a deliberate connection...
LordofBones Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 19:31:32
I think Set went waaay beyond 'selfish douche' when he murdered his brother and dismembered him.
Markustay Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 18:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

Sseth and Set are separate during 2e, so that's what I'm sticking with (same reason I didn't address 3e's two new aspects for Shekinester, which would also have necessitating writing up the new naga race). I don't really see the pair interacting much at all; Set isn't the "big evil" of Egyptian mythology that he is made out to be (which isn't to say he isn't *an* evil of it); Apep/Apophis is, and Set is portrayed as aiding the others in that struggle. Overall, he is neither aligned directly with or directly against any of her portfolios.
Yeah, I realize that - Set is to the Pharonics what Loki is to the Norse (without the sense of humor).

Set and Baast have an ancient relationship - I have theorized it may even predate the Egyptian pantheon (in D&D, obviously not RW). Part of her 'job' with that pantheon is keeping a close eye on Set, who isn't all that trustworthy (thats Egypt canon). Now both have 'gone on' to become parts of other pantheons (in D&D, and strangely, RW as well), so their relationship has become extremely complex. I almost can get the vibe that they have been enemies for so long they morphed into 'frenemies' ("no-one kills you but ME").

But yeah, Set gets a bum wrap in modern folklore, just as Hades does - neither of them were overtly evil, just selfish douches (and what gods aren't?)

So all of this now has me thinking of a very primal storyline wherein a 'serpent' and tree are involved, and my first thought of course was the story of Adam and Eve. The reason for this is because 4e made Corellon one of the most ancient, omnipresent Gods (Estelar) in the Creation Myths (of everyone, not just elves), hence the tree representing 'nature'. I was trying to come up with a way of connecting Corellon's now uber-status in the grand hierarchy of 'elder gods' to a conflict with 'The serpent'. Anyhow, after the A&E thing popped into my head, the next thing was The Little Prince, which I recall seeing as a child and thinking it a horrific story when you break it down.

But I may be able to work with that, if I make 'The Prince' an allegory for Corellon...
LordofBones Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 06:52:26
D&D kind of muddies the waters; Sobek and Apep should definitely not be demipowers. Pathfinder's version of Sobek is far closer to the real myth of the crocodile god than the cowardly sycophant of the Mulhorandi pantheon, while Apep should either be a greater power or something equivalent to Jormungandr or Dendar - a cosmic horror intrinsicly tied to his pantheon.

Set himself is generally overhyped as a villain. Yes, he is a fratricidal monster, but he's a valued member of the Egyptian pantheon and the protector of Ra. In myth, he and Horus eventually buried the hatchet.

Ravana is an interesting deity. In myth, he's the child of the sage Vishrava and the daitya princess Kaikesi. His father left in disgust when Ravana overthrew Kubera for rule over Lanka, and his mother appealed for the return of Sita to Rama. Despite his lusts, Ravana is also a skilled bard, mystic, scholar and theologian. He penned books on astrology and medicine, and was devoted to Shiva until the very end.

In game terms, I'd say that the rakshasa devoted to Ravana refuse to harm a cleric, worshipper or temple of Shiva, and worshipers of that deity can pass through the rakhshasa realms in Acheron unmolested and are often treated as honored guests. Spellcasters, especially wizards and clerics, are often invited to the power's palace for discussions on philosophy, magical theory and theology; bards are invited to perform for Ravana's court. Those who fail to impress are slain outright or tortured; those who do impress are allowed to peruse the Lord of Lanka's vast libraries of grimoires, masterpieces and esoteric texts.
AuldDragon Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 06:23:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just reading further - 2nd paragraph, near the end - the word 'us' should be 'is'.


Thanks for catching that!

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Because of her tripartite nature and aspects, she also seems a lot like Kali, who is also associated with destruction (through Shiva), but for all the 'right' reasons. And Kali aso has an 'mother'-like aspect - The Black Earth Mother. Unfortunately, you've spun her an an enemy of Ravana, and if she is an aspect of kali (or rather, both are aspects of some greater, more primal proto-power), Kali is a protector of Shiva and Ravana is Shiva's highest priest. Nevermind - the interpretation of her depiction as standing upon Shiva differs among scholars, and some believe it shows more of her 'triumph' over him (and he is just a corpse). In that interpretation, the idea that Ravana hates Kali/Shekinestor works beautifully.


It's entirely possible to have one entity allied to a second and enemy to a third, when the second and third are allied. Shekinester isn't part of the Vedic pantheon, so her relationship with Ravanna need not be as complex as it might be for one of them. Also, within the context of the game, elements like Ravanna being high priest of Shiva may be in the past, rather than current. I haven't done the research yet for him.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I notice you don't mention Set at all - was that on purpose? I suppose Set's own all-pervasiveness within many other pantheons (he is now known to also be the new Zehir from 4e) could become problematic. He absorbed Sseth, I thought, so does that now make him Shekinester's enemy, or is that all forgotten now? Or has that 'not happened yet', since this is 2e?


Sseth and Set are separate during 2e, so that's what I'm sticking with (same reason I didn't address 3e's two new aspects for Shekinester, which would also have necessitating writing up the new naga race). I don't really see the pair interacting much at all; Set isn't the "big evil" of Egyptian mythology that he is made out to be (which isn't to say he isn't *an* evil of it); Apep/Apophis is, and Set is portrayed as aiding the others in that struggle. Overall, he is neither aligned directly with or directly against any of her portfolios.

Jeff
AuldDragon Posted - 03 Apr 2018 : 04:57:10
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.



For now, I'm using the canon spelling, based on Dragon #84 and Dungeon #73 (and I think he is mentioned in Planescape as well). I may change it later when I have a chance to do research, but for now, I'll stick with it.

What the naga say about Ravanna and the Vedic pantheon may not be the same thing the followers of the Vedic pantheon say about Ravanna. That said, the Rakshasa make good villains for the Vedic pantheon, much as giants do for the Norse pantheon. :)

Jeff
Markustay Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 18:40:17
Just reading further - 2nd paragraph, near the end - the word 'us' should be 'is'.

Because of her tripartite nature and aspects, she also seems a lot like Kali, who is also associated with destruction (through Shiva), but for all the 'right' reasons. And Kali also has an 'mother'-like aspect - The Black Earth Mother. Unfortunately, you've spun her an an enemy of Ravana, and if she is an aspect of kali (or rather, both are aspects of some greater, more primal proto-power), Kali is a protector of Shiva and Ravana is Shiva's highest priest. Nevermind - the interpretation of her depiction as standing upon Shiva differs among scholars, and some believe it shows more of her 'triumph' over him (and he is just a corpse). In that interpretation, the idea that Ravana hates Kali/Shekinestor works beautifully.

Which is really neither here nor there, because most of these ancient, primal aspects of Over/Ubergods have gone their own way so long they may as well just be separate beings at this point.

I also think Kali makes an excellent human (Vedic) aspect of Lolth - Black skin usually depicted as blue in art, small fangs, glowing eyes, eight limbs, and the ability to both 'mother' her people while also being a batcrap-crazy evil b*tch. And the Kali Thuggee cults are all about 'revenge against the oppressors', and that sounds a lot like how the Drow feel about the surface elves. But of course, this is just me trying to find paralleles everywhere.

EDIT:
I notice you don't mention Set at all - was that on purpose? I suppose Set's own all-pervasiveness within many other pantheons (he is now known to also be the new Zehir from 4e) could become problematic. He absorbed Sseth, I thought, so does that now make him Shekinester's enemy, or is that all forgotten now? Or has that 'not happened yet', since this is 2e?

If Shekinester and Set hate each other, it would make Baast her natural ally, but if they like each other, then Baast would have to be her enemy, which is also complex because she has merged with a few others (including a Fey power) and has a presence in multiple pantheons now. It would probably be better-off spinning Baast as an enemy, because Baast would also (naturally) have connections to the rakshasas.
Markustay Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 18:08:37
I like the take on Shekinester. You now have me thinking about merging her with Angharradh (an elven aspect of the serpent proto-deity).

And why I say that is because my own (homebrew) write-up has Angharradh as very similar to the way you wrote-up Shekinester - as a 'reflection' of the three norns/fates deities of other mythology (I also have it where Araushnee was part of the original Angharradh - she was 'the weaver', but afterward Rhiannon - the winged goddess of fairies - took her place as Aerdrie Faenya).

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.
I've done a bunch of stuff with Ravana myself. He HAS been mentioned in canon D&D lore (probably a Dragon article or two), but I am not sure how the D&D version is spelled.

On other counts, he seems to have been somewhat different than his mythical counterpart - more like how Vishnu saw him, rather than how his greater body of actions made him out to be.

And I also also have him trapped beneath the Yehimals... but thats another story.

(P.S. - The Black Panther - Bauhei, Hei Te Pao, etc. - is his brother Vibishana... although now that I just read there was a 3rd brother - Kumbahaarna - I might just respin the two names above and have the Black panther actually be two different siblings of Ravana, which could be more fun from a D&D perspective).
sleyvas Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 13:44:14
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon



I haven't decided for sure yet, as I will need to do more research to form up my ideas, and I'm not at that point yet (still working on the aerial/aquatic/scaled deities), but it definitely won't be that. I do see a connection between her and Baba Yaga and ogres, and I will be drawing upon Slavic and Finnish folklore, as well as folklore about witches. I will preserve the possibility of a connection to Titania, but given the existence of the Queen of Air and Darkness, I don't think it should be interpreted as "genetic." Exactly what the relationship is I will explore when I get to her.

The moon is powerful and magical, and that's where her lunar connection comes in. I don't think she is a "lunar deity" in the same way that Selune is, representing the moon itself. Rather, her connection is more akin to the ancient idea of lunacy, where the moon has power over people, and that's what she draws upon. I haven't fleshed it all out yet.

Jeff



I'm intrigued to see what/how you interpret that lunar connection as well. I've wondered about how to properly do it justice as well. In FR, Selune is portrayed so much as a goddess of good and the moon as "light", unlike other moon deities such as those in Krynn who are about magic. However, Selune is also known to be about magic related to women as well, as well as being tied to a woman's cycles. It has occurred to me that perhaps Cegilune has actually found some way to tap into this part of the moon, given that she is a "female-centric" deity, and given that monthly a woman actually has a small portion of herself "die"... its kind of grisly, but one could almost see it as a strange sort of sacrifice.
LordofBones Posted - 02 Apr 2018 : 08:27:01
Two things stand out in Shekinester's entry.

First, Ravana has only one 'n'.

Second, Ravana - at least, the Ravana of actual myth - was a Brahmin, and in some accounts he was given the nectar of immortality as a boon by Brahma, in addition to being a great devotee of Shiva. Of the Big Three of the Vedic pantheon, only Vishnu has known feuds with the rakhshasa and their lords.
AuldDragon Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 23:10:43
Shekinester the Three-Faced Queen: http://bit.ly/Shekinester

Shekinester, creator and queen of the nagas, is one of the most complex deities in the D&D multiverse. She has three distinct aspects, each representing a different alignment, with different portfolios of interest, but all elements of her overriding portfolio of Wisdom.

Jeff
AuldDragon Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 04:35:52
Eadro the Deliverer: http://bit.ly/Eadro

It took me a little while to decide what exactly Eadro represented, as he was described simply as the patron of the merfolk and the locathah. I eventually decided that he represented the strong bonds of community that merfolk and locathah are characterized as having, and this makes him a good addition to the loose “pantheon” of good and neutral aquatic deities.

Jeff
AuldDragon Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 04:33:43
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I thought I'd point this out: Thrym's entry lists the gnomish pantheon as one of his foes. The collective name for them is 'Lords of the Golden Hills', much like how the elven deities are the Seldarine.



Yeah; that's how it was listed in Demihuman Deities (probably because it is shorter) so I stuck with it.

Jeff
LordofBones Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 13:37:31
I thought I'd point this out: Thrym's entry lists the gnomish pantheon as one of his foes. The collective name for them is 'Lords of the Golden Hills', much like how the elven deities are the Seldarine.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 11:03:30
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On hags, not sure what you're getting at there, but I would personally have hags involved with many of the "ugly" races of giantkind. For instance, I can see hags producing children for Fomorians, ettins, cyclops, ogres, trolls, hill giants, ogre magic. However, I can also see different hags producing children with other beings (for instance, Bheur hags producing children with frost giants and ice trolls OR sea hags producing children with Merrow, etc...). In these instances, I'd have it that, like elves, hags "breed true"... so if its a male child its like the father, if its female its like the mother. Hagspawn would be the unusual situation of a hag and a human, and specifically because humans seem to have this strange ability to mate with most anything. Then there's how they reproduce through eating children as put forth in 5e.


I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff



Yeah, I could definitely agree on that as well. For FR, I was specifically making Dun-Tharos/Narathmault/"The Dark Pit" one of the original places where hags were showing up on Toril (arriving through the same gates that the fey used). I called the place Bheuristahl for that time, and I had them getting involved with the giants, but LIVING with them were ogres and ogre magi.
AuldDragon Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 06:32:27
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hence my hombrew lore (as in, my OWN setting) that hags can change size and shape (Very much like Fey).


Sorry, I tend to assume anything posted in this thread is a suggestion for the project, rather than general/homebrew musing, which is why I tend to respond with thoughts based on my project's parameters. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But, since you've already said your stuff here is all based on 2e (which was a great edition... except for THACO... I still have nightmares about THACO), I guess you don't even have to address the 'Time before Time' (The 'Age of Legend' from the Time Bandits movie LOL), which is what existed before the current iteration of the universe even existed (with all its separate worlds, Crystal Spheres, and Planes). Post-Dawn War, things became less mutable and more 'set in stone', so that is when all the pantheons would have become important ("the lines were drawn"), and all the sub-races actually became sub-races (before that, these were probably just 'templates').


As far as I'm concerned, everything before recorded game history is unknown and unknowable, and portrayed much as myth is in the real world, and varies from race to race (with most of the major ones claiming their deities created everything first). I really see no reason to document such things when they only serve as backdrop for the game. We're talking on the scale of millions of years (which is where the oldest elements of Spelljammer history is set) before we get to all of that, which is well outside the scope of any individual campaign.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

When Cegilune first appeared in 3.5e (in Dragon, IIRC), her origin was retconned to being a benign moon deity that fell to her own vanity. Is this where you're going with Cegilune, or will she be something else (the very first Night Hag, an ascended hag, Baba Yaga's mother, etc)?


I haven't decided for sure yet, as I will need to do more research to form up my ideas, and I'm not at that point yet (still working on the aerial/aquatic/scaled deities), but it definitely won't be that. I do see a connection between her and Baba Yaga and ogres, and I will be drawing upon Slavic and Finnish folklore, as well as folklore about witches. I will preserve the possibility of a connection to Titania, but given the existence of the Queen of Air and Darkness, I don't think it should be interpreted as "genetic." Exactly what the relationship is I will explore when I get to her.

The moon is powerful and magical, and that's where her lunar connection comes in. I don't think she is a "lunar deity" in the same way that Selune is, representing the moon itself. Rather, her connection is more akin to the ancient idea of lunacy, where the moon has power over people, and that's what she draws upon. I haven't fleshed it all out yet.

Jeff
LordofBones Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 05:37:12
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff



When Cegilune first appeared in 3.5e (in Dragon, IIRC), her origin was retconned to being a benign moon deity that fell to her own vanity. Is this where you're going with Cegilune, or will she be something else (the very first Night Hag, an ascended hag, Baba Yaga's mother, etc)?
Markustay Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 04:25:05
Hence my hombrew lore (as in, my OWN setting) that hags can change size and shape (Very much like Fey). I've pushed my own lore back into 'The Time Before Time', and say that all giants are just one group (Jotuns), before allt hese subgroups appeared among them. This makes them very much like how giants were in Glorantha (Runequest), which is an old game and setting I really love. Primordial Giants are also all male, or another way of looking at is androgynous, since these would have pre-dated the concept of 'sex'. Thus, when they (and others) needed to 'mate' after the rules of the universe changed (the presence of death also caused the concept of 'birth', or procreation, to come about), the hags - a group of dryad-like Fey creatures - took up the call, and began changing their form to suit their 'partners' needs.

In the case of humans and hags, we get Hagspawn, which gave birth to the ogres. With each Race, they would create different progeny, some superior to the parent, others, not so much.

Now, with this new look and take on Firbolgs, I am thinking abut spinning the Færbholga as a sort of 'giant fey', some branches of which have 'devolved' over time. A group that went to Krynn could have been the 'High Ogres', some of which stayed true and are now the Irda, while others were corrupted and/or tainted and became ogres (and minotaurs). This also meshes nicely with WoT's Ogier. So I suppose if Firbolgs and Hags bred, they could crate ogres as well.

But, since you've already said your stuff here is all based on 2e (which was a great edition... except for THACO... I still have nightmares about THACO), I guess you don't even have to address the 'Time before Time' (The 'Age of Legend' from the Time Bandits movie LOL), which is what existed before the current iteration of the universe even existed (with all its separate worlds, Crystal Spheres, and Planes). Post-Dawn War, things became less mutable and more 'set in stone', so that is when all the pantheons would have become important ("the lines were drawn"), and all the sub-races actually became sub-races (before that, these were probably just 'templates').

Cheers
AuldDragon Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 02:05:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Because Titania is a PERSON - an actual fey Eladrin, making her mortal-ish (and ascended mortal, or in 4e jargon, an archfey). She could not have 'created herself'.


But that "created herself" element doesn't have to be *accurate.* One of my pet peeves about RPGs in general is that *everything is true.* This is one reason why I often include mutually exclusive elements, so everything can't be true. People and deities lie or are wrong, and the religions can have dogma disassociated from real events.

Anyway, that's why I based this project on 2nd Edition canon, so I don't have to worry about or deal with all the stuff I specifically didn't like about lore changes in later editions, and am generally dealing with things that were newly created at the time. It's much less complicated, which is the way I like it. :)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, and Hags - I agree with the Ogre thing, but unfortunately, D&D (and especially FR) has placed Ogres with the giants.


But only loosely, and it really doesn't have to be a significant element of their being. They should be treated as their own thing rather than just large goblinoids or small giants.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On hags, not sure what you're getting at there, but I would personally have hags involved with many of the "ugly" races of giantkind. For instance, I can see hags producing children for Fomorians, ettins, cyclops, ogres, trolls, hill giants, ogre magic. However, I can also see different hags producing children with other beings (for instance, Bheur hags producing children with frost giants and ice trolls OR sea hags producing children with Merrow, etc...). In these instances, I'd have it that, like elves, hags "breed true"... so if its a male child its like the father, if its female its like the mother. Hagspawn would be the unusual situation of a hag and a human, and specifically because humans seem to have this strange ability to mate with most anything. Then there's how they reproduce through eating children as put forth in 5e.


I didn't mean to imply that they only consorted with ogres, and I agree they would breed true with almost any other race. However, D&D hags are drawn from folklore about witches and non-English villains that often get translated as "ogress," so I think hags are more closely related to ogres than anything else. I see their relation to the sylvan creatures as being one of predator and prey, and perhaps a case of corruption of sylvan magic. When I get to Cegilune, I'll get these ideas more fleshed out.

Jeff

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