| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| YUGULO |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 19:56:03
Forgotten Realms, "Faiths & Avatars".
Clerics have followers at level 9 if they establish a fortress; The Crusaders have followers without needing to establish the fortress; The monks have a small group of followers in the temple ... And the specific priests of each myth what do they have?
Does a specific priest have followers or run a temple? Is there a manual that clarifies this fact clearly or is simply assumed?
It should be noted that in the game Baldur's Gate II specific priests can manage temples, but I do not know if it is part of the game's playability or if it is something real of the rules. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| YUGULO |
Posted - 11 Apr 2017 : 11:44:00
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
2A is using 3e's Leadership feat. That's fine if you want, but it's not a 2e solution.
I agree that it's odd that they don't state in any of the Godbook Trio specifically whether specialty priests get followers or not. I would in general say they get followers exactly as a priest, unless it makes no sense for the specific deity. But it's your call. Remember, that in some faiths, specialty priests vastly outnumber standard clerics.
Tyr, for example, has specific priests and he has no clerics.
Considering as true that the fact that specific priests do not have the same legion of fanatical followers as a crusader or a cleric, since it is a skill proper to those two classes, but whether they should have some kind of followers in their temple and not Appears in any rule or manual nothing on this particular detail, I think that the most approximate and correct would be to apply the followers that appear in The Complete Priest's Handbook.
For example, for Tempus (god of war) a specific priest (Battleguard) would apply this: "Followers and Strongholds: The followers are received at 8th level, and consist of one fifth-level priest, three third-level priests and six first-level priests of the same order, plus two fifth-level fighters who act as guards. The priesthood will pay for half of the cost of stronghold construction at 8th level. The stronghold must include a large armory chamber. "
Other priests of other gods would have their specific followers in accord with each type of deity. For example, Oghma (wisdom): "Followers and Strongholds: The followers are received at 9th level, and consist of two third-level priests and four first-level priests of the same order, plus one fifth-level fighter, Level fighter, and two second-level fighters to act as guards, and one third-level mage, one third-level bard, one second-level thief, and one second-level illusionist to act as consultants. On adventures: Two priests (only one of whom may be third-level, plus two fighters of his choice, and two from the following list: mage, bard, thief, and illusionist. Construction at 9th level. "
Would it be wise to do so in the absence of more specific information?
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| AuldDragon |
Posted - 11 Apr 2017 : 03:30:50
Well, color me embarrassed. I completely overlooked the following text from the PHB multiple times:
"Upon reaching 8th level, the cleric automatically attracts a fanatically loyal group of believers, provided the character has established a place of worship of significant size. The cleric can build this place of worship at any time during his career, but he does not attract believers until he reaches 8th level. These followers are normal warriors, 0th-level soldiers, ready to fight for the clerics cause. The cleric attracts 20 to 200 of these followers; they arrive over a period of several weeks."
So Crusaders gain the same sorts of followers. My mistake. I don't think most Specialty Priests would gain followers the same way, though, in part because this is a class benefit that isn't specifically outlined for specialty priests. They get various special powers instead.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, I remember doing the math on high level spellcasters and regaining their spells that they could cast per day, and it ended up being like the majority of the day spent memorizing their spells again. I remember writing up several relatively high level spells just for the sole purpose of refilling spell slots with a spell that they had just cast the previous day just to give them more daylight hours to do things if they were putting up some of the same wards every day.
Yep, that's true, and I think it's reasonable. If a high level wizard has unleashed the vast majority of his spells, it represents a pretty substantial expenditure of power, either due to an incredibly difficult battle or an extended period of dangerous activity. It *should* take time to recover from that.
Jeff |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 10 Apr 2017 : 18:44:12
2A is using 3e's Leadership feat. That's fine if you want, but it's not a 2e solution.
I agree that it's odd that they don't state in any of the Godbook Trio specifically whether specialty priests get followers or not. I would in general say they get followers exactly as a priest, unless it makes no sense for the specific deity. But it's your call. Remember, that in some faiths, specialty priests vastly outnumber standard clerics. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Apr 2017 : 16:33:16
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
AD&D also assumed there was more and more "down time" as a PC leveled up, along with an assumed goal of PCs gaining their own domains (castles for warriors, temples for priests, towers for wizards, and guilds for thieves). This is one of the reasons spell and magical item research takes so long for wizards and priests.
And that's also why most characters don't gain followers if they don't settle down.
It's still plenty easy to adventure, there is just a lot more "Okay, two months pass..." at that point.
Back to the original question: Regarding the Crusader gaining followers, I think the line should read "Crusaders gain followers much as fighters do..." I would treat Specialty Priests as clerics, and allow them to build a temple but not gain specific followers. I might say that specialty priests of war gods (Tempus, Garagos, etc.) might gain followers like Crusaders, though.
Jeff
Lol, I remember doing the math on high level spellcasters and regaining their spells that they could cast per day, and it ended up being like the majority of the day spent memorizing their spells again. I remember writing up several relatively high level spells just for the sole purpose of refilling spell slots with a spell that they had just cast the previous day just to give them more daylight hours to do things if they were putting up some of the same wards every day. |
| YUGULO |
Posted - 09 Apr 2017 : 12:16:12
Thank you all very much for the answers.
As far as I can read in all the manuals of AD & D 2.5 + Player Options, it is very clear that clerics, crusaders and druids have followers and temples specifying the type and conditions to obtain them. Similarly, shamans do not have them (also specified). The problem lies in the priests of specific mythologies, who mentions neither one nor the other.
It is acceptable, especially since it appears in some novel and in games like Baldur's Gate II, that priests of specific mythologies can direct a fortified temple or abbey, the exact question would be centered on whether those fanatical followers who automatically obtain the crusader or the cleric It would also be obtained by the priest of specific mythology or if it is a characteristic reserved for these two classes exclusively, in which case the priest of specific mythology would obtain some "non-fanatical" followers who would go to pray to the temple and little else.
But specifically, differentiate 2 cases:
1 - A level 9 cleric obtains permission from his church to create a fortified abbey, builds it and receives followers: "At 9th level, the cleric may receive official approval to establish a religious stronghold, be it a fortified abbey or a secluded convent But the construction of the stronghold of the stronghold is half the normal price, since the work has official sanction and much of it. The work is donated. The cleric can hold property and build a stronghold any time before reaching 9th level, but this is done without church sanction and does not receive the benefits described above. " CRUSADERS: "Crusaders gain followers much as clerics do. When the crusader reaches 8th level, he automatically attracts 20 to 200 fanatical followers. These followers are normal 0-level soldiers, armed and equipped with weapons appropriate for typical soldiers in the campaign. Unlike the cleric, the crusader does not need to establish a permanent place of worship to attract these followers. Since he is a great battle leader, the soldiers will serve him as a free-roving company if no stronghold is available. At 9th level, a crusader may receive official sanction to establish a religious stronghold or fortified temple."
2 - A specific mythology priest arrives at level 9 and has money to build something and fame as settlers settle in any suitable place. It is not mentioned in any rule that he obtains faithfuls like the cleric or the crusader, nor that he can not obtain them as the shaman.
Logical Options:
2A - Build a temple and work the land around, the faithful pray in it. Obtain income for donations. The number of faithful followers as expressed by Diffan, those skills also exist in Player's Options but not so specific.
2B - Same as the cleric.
2C - More ideas?
At the moment I assume it must be type 2A, but I would like to know if anyone has more information and see all the possible points of view. At the moment, because of the contribution, it is quite close to my personal approach on the subject. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Apr 2017 : 09:21:25
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had always assumed speciality priests operated exactly the same as clerics in that regard.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I thought that specialty priests were clerics as far as that went....
Technically, the "generic" clerics have more tied to the allies, and more of public figures, while specialty priests are focused on a deity's goals more closely, it's more about running errands and proselytising.
So there should be difference, indeed.
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| moonbeast |
Posted - 09 Apr 2017 : 06:47:03
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
AD&D also assumed there was more and more "down time" as a PC leveled up, along with an assumed goal of PCs gaining their own domains (castles for warriors, temples for priests, towers for wizards, and guilds for thieves). This is one of the reasons spell and magical item research takes so long for wizards and priests.
Right. The general assumption was that high-level PCs had amassed tons of gold, lots of priceless magic items or artifacts, conquered or were granted lucrative property by grateful kings and nobles, or given titles of nobility, etc. That means they had to start paying attention to their "things", in addition to feeding and paying attention to their followers, henchmen, hirelings, etc.
High-level PCs at the end of their careers were becoming almost demi-god-like in power and social status. They no longer needed to go on routine dungeon crawls in order to get by. And by the time that your PCs had become so high level, the Average D&D Player would start getting bored of that same Paladin that he had been playing for months or years. So they would be played less and less and less, and instead would be rolling up brand new characters to play. That coincides with some of the down time for the high-level PCs.
Instead of Dungeons & Dragons, the epic-level PCs had become pre-occupied with Taxes and Thronerooms. Quite evil is the Dungeon Master that actually demanded the collection of taxes from his high-level PCs. hehe
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| sfdragon |
Posted - 09 Apr 2017 : 02:38:35
I thought that specialty priests were clerics as far as that went....
you had to be a priest/cleric/druid/etc to get that anyway |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 09 Apr 2017 : 02:33:39
AD&D also assumed there was more and more "down time" as a PC leveled up, along with an assumed goal of PCs gaining their own domains (castles for warriors, temples for priests, towers for wizards, and guilds for thieves). This is one of the reasons spell and magical item research takes so long for wizards and priests.
And that's also why most characters don't gain followers if they don't settle down.
It's still plenty easy to adventure, there is just a lot more "Okay, two months pass..." at that point.
Back to the original question: Regarding the Crusader gaining followers, I think the line should read "Crusaders gain followers much as fighters do..." I would treat Specialty Priests as clerics, and allow them to build a temple but not gain specific followers. I might say that specialty priests of war gods (Tempus, Garagos, etc.) might gain followers like Crusaders, though.
Jeff |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 20:25:35
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Those old rules are hard to justify in today's more logically-minded RPG settings.
It makes sense ''logically'' : it's fame. As the character adventures around they gain fame. And lots of NPC fall for ''fame''. So they gain followers as soon as they get enough fame, and have some know place for the followers to go.
And the ''rock star'' is the perfect person to found a place, even a temple. A ton of people will go there just to maybe meet the rock star or even just follow in the foot steps. And take the step of making the famous adventures into a tourist trap, and you have gold. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 20:16:27
I haven't played AD&D 2e in almost two decades, so I'm not sure what the rules actually state about it. I know in 3e you can get the Leadership feat
and your score (Level + Charisma modifier) determines the level of a Cohort and the level and amount of followers you have.
There are things that modify your score and it can fluctuate depending on any number of factors.
Leadership
Score Cohort Number of Followers by Level
Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1<
2 1st
3 2nd
4 3rd
5 3rd
6 4th
7 5th
8 5th
9 6th
10 7th 5
11 7th 6
12 8th 8
13 9th 10 1
14 10th 15 1
15 10th 20 2 1
16 11th 25 2 1
17 12th 30 3 1 1
18 12th 35 3 1 1
19 13th 40 4 2 1 1
20 14th 50 5 3 2 1
21 15th 60 6 3 2 1 1
22 15th 75 7 4 2 2 1
23 16th 90 9 5 3 2 1
24 17th 110 11 6 3 2 1
25+ 17th 135 13 7 4 2 2
You can read about it HERE |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 17:49:17
Those old rules are hard to justify in today's more logically-minded RPG settings. A person who is out adventuring all the time isn't going to be a good choice to establish a local temple and following. If he/she decides to do so, then they should have to give-up adventuring. No-one is going to get behind a church where the head priest is off doing gods-knows-what all the time. This is not only true for ALL types of divine casters - it should hold true for every class. The word 'follower' implies you are someone who's worth having as a leader, and someone who is absent 90% of the time just doesn't fit that bill. This is why those rules were mostly dropped in later editions - they should really only apply to NPCs (including PCs who decide to retire and become NPCs). |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 17:15:56
Right. 2e fighter, priest, and thief followers don't show up unless the character establishes and maintains some manner of "stronghold." Basically, the character has to decide to become a "lord of the manor," run a temple, or establish a thieves' guild to get followers. Rangers are pretty much the only folks who get followers regardless, but that's compensated by the fact that ranger followers are much fewer, and much more individualistic.
So for a specialty priest, they would need to either do as their specific entry says, or (in my opinion) follow the cleric path. Remember, these are fanatical fellow worshippers who are showing up to help serve the god/dess. They need to know where your PC is, first of all. And, aside from followers of a god of wanderers (Shaundakul, perhaps), they want to have a bed and a roof over your head.
So the basic answer is yes: if your specialty priest wants to have followers, they have to set up some sort of temple. What kind of temple depends entirely on the deity. A temple of Helm would be located, look, and have a completely different function than a temple of Sune, for instance. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 15:42:19
Do you want a rules response or a realms response?
The two are very different.
From a rules perspective i have no clue. From a realms perspective the answer is always - it depends.
As a cleric you are not necessarily a member of any church unless you join one and devote time to it. If you are and display enough merit and ability then you may well be given the opportunity to manage your own flock, church, etc.
Otherwise you can remain as an independent travelling prelate. If you can build your own shrine and attract followers then there is the potential is there for you to start your own church.
Nothing should be automatic because of the rules. I know Ed retired a number of player characters who chose to establish churches, because it is a full time job |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 15:34:35
I had always assumed speciality priests operated exactly the same as clerics in that regard. I don't know if the rules actually say that anywhere - that was 3 editions ago. |
| YUGULO |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 14:06:41
Could someone please give some kind of response? |
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