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T O P I C    R E V I E W
sleyvas Posted - 17 Mar 2017 : 15:29:19
I've liked Jakandor ever since I was introduced to it by Markustay's comments. Its backstory with a little modification on dates absolutely fits the spellplague/sundering scenario, and it would absolutely fit the land right off the east coast of Katashaka that someone labeled tabaxiland if the map were simply rotated 135 degrees clockwise (which would of course mean rotating the compass on the map). The Charonti people absolutely could be related to the human tribes that were the creator races, or they could simply be an imported people from elsewhere (in fact, their history states "The time came when our airships and enchanted portals carried us beyond the shores of our island home").

Just to do the basic math of time to see where things would fall, and how to adjust, gonna throw out some dates from that source

from page 7 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny

The first expedition into other lands was launched under the rule of Ihnkaheser XXIII in the year 4335 of the Hramnethes Dynasty.

from page 8 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny (note, around the world not being limited to their known world)

The Wasting Plague In the year 5350 the world ended. Borne on the magic of any spell or enchantment, the Wasting Plague rocketed around the world like chain lightning. Temples linked by magic spread the plague to every corner of Jakandor. Magical communications sent to warn travelers served only to propel the plague farther and wider. Healing spells and protective magic only fueled the disease. The plazas and streets were piled with bodies.

from page 9 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny

The Magelords For the next five thousand years no building was raised, and no ruler returned to lead us again to wisdom. In the countryside people destroyed all magical artifacts and slew spellcasters on sight in an effort to keep the plague at bay, while ambitious power seekers scoured the ruins of our cities and temples for the magic that would give them the power to rule their brothers.

Then it goes on to indicate how "magelords" established themselves, and the nextsection details the royal house reestablishing themselves during this 5 thousand years, and the royal house and magelords being at odds then they unite.

So at least according to this, the Hramnethes Dynasty was established roughly 10,350 years ago if we take that 5000 years entry literally. If we say that at the time of this published work that we're talking about say 1370 DR to 1490 DR, this this would put this Hramnethes Dynasty starting around ~ -9000 DR to -8850 DR. This would put them using their portals and airships to leave the isle of Jakandor ~ -4665 DR to -4515 DR. This would put the wasting plague being roughly somewhere around ~ -3650 DR to -3500 DR.

However, lets look at the GHotR, and the Imaskari had a "devastating plague" that couldn't be cured in the temples around -4370 DR. What if somehow this "wasting plague" and the plague the Imaskari were inflicted with were related (hmmm, could those blasted elves have performed some high magic ritual aimed at "human" magical methods, but the Imaskari had learned enough about fey or fiendish magic that they adjusted and survived after their initial deaths, but the Charonti didn't know how to?). If we did that, then the 5000 years mentioned previously during the magelord time becomes 5720 to 5870 years in span. That would reset the times to

Hramnethes Dynasty starting around ~ -9720 DR
leaving the isle of Jakandor ~ -5385 DR
Wasting Plague -4370 DR

Of course, linking the two plagues isn't necessary, since it would be all the way on the other side of the world. I did that math to see if the dates helped line up with anything else, but nothing jumps out at me other than the rise of Calimshan, and not sure I'd want to link Jakandor and Calimshan. Also, I note the shape of Jakandor, but I can't necessarily compare the size of Jakandor to the island off Katashaka's east coast.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 22 Apr 2017 : 19:06:29
I've just been study BRJ's Chronology of the Primes, trying to find the links I need between GH and FR for something in another thread, and I noticed this bit:

quote:
647 DR [Year of the Wayward Heart]
1. The Nation of Barovia is founded on an unknown world by the ancestors of Strahd von Zarovich. (1 BY, Ravenloft)


I can see why he went that way with it, since we've had lore saying it was part of at least two different settings history (further proof that 'pieces' get swapped between worlds all the time?), but it made me think about Jakandor as a proto-demiplane again. I also noticed yesterday on a map of the Material plane (either 4e or 5e - I'm not sure which) that they placed the Isle of dread in the Plane of Water. Thats pretty cool, because it lends credence to the theory that a lot of these D&D 'archtype' sites are actually located 'next to', but not 'in', the Prime Material. What if thats how planes are 'born'? I recall a discussion a LONG time ago on the WotC boards about Ravenloft being like this, but now I am seeing the possibility for others. What if extreme emotional states cause planes to 'bud', and we get these little demiplanes - that reach tendrils into other worlds and 'eat' the stuff they find there, adding mass to themselves?

And, either in this thread or a related one, I talked about the 'triune' of "spare-parts worlds" (theoretically, Abeir, Athas, and Mystara... I think) that might exist. I suppose Eberron might be one, considering it also has a 'wonky' connection to the rest of the D&Dverse.

But the point I want to make is, maybe the Overpowers use this natural 'budding' of planes to create these storage-planes (actually, part of the Material plane, but out-of-phase with the Prime... just like the Shadowfell and the Feywild, in fact). They take a budding demiplane and use it as their 'cosmic bag-of-holding'. Hell, maybe its even like a CTCG - they get together every once in awhile and trade places ("I'll give you my mint-condition Maztica for your holographic Borovia - its rare!" )

Even Mystara has some of this 'places moving about' going on in its history (I think their powers ran out of room on the surface, and had to create the Hollow World... so maybe a storage place got its own storage place... sounds like Mystara's Immortals are a bunch of Hoarders ).

And just maybe, these Overpowers ARE trying to repair that First (True) World; some of them, at any rate. Did you ever do a big puzzle with other people? You are all looking through the pieces and have your own separate 'maybe piles' going on, and then you start looking in the other person's stuff and you're like, "I think this one may be mine", and then they start looking at your pile for the same reason... like that.

And their could even be 'doubles' that happen by accident, like how Soth's realm got 'cloned', sort of, to wind up on two worlds at the same time (although the DL people will argue it never left).

Perhaps other forces want to maintain the status quo and not allow the First World to be reborn. The fiends jump to mind. I picture the demons just wanting everything to end, because they all work for Cthon (Elder Elmental Eye, Cthulhu, whatever), whether they know it or not. The devils, however, don't want everything destroyed, nor do they want it all 'fixed' - they make out best if everything continues to remain the way it is now (a shattered universe that they can 'divide and conquer').

This would also all relate back to the purpose of the Illithids, and their war with the Gith (the 'Race of Destiny'?), but now I'm going really far afield, so I'll just stop now.
sleyvas Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 02:46:26
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.





Hmmm, I had missed Markustay's statement about a proto-demiplane based on war..... So, maybe a sentient demi-plane which purposely puts people together and encourages them to kill one another. With the Knorr worshipping "the War Mother", this gets very interesting indeed. I'm gonna go bake on this idea.
Bragi Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 17:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.

sleyvas Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 13:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL



Along those ideas... we know that Toril and Abeir are "out of phase" with one another, such that they occupy the same space and use the same sun. However, we don't know that they spin at the same speed. Even a few minutes slower spin over time could make a huge difference over a hundred years. So, yeah, I could definitely see some things not shifting back and forth correctly. Maybe even that's why Akanul stayed, but PORTIONS of Tymanther didn't.
sleyvas Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 13:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos



I had thought that too, until I really started looking at the Jakandor stuff. With a name like Knorrman, it was obviously intended to be a joke somewhat on Norman people. However, they remind me very much of a mix of native American mixed with Viking. Perhaps if we ever learned anything of the "Vanir" people rather than the Aesir people they'd match up. Also, as Markustay mentions, YES the barbarians of Cimmeria would very much fit with the idea.
Markustay Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 20:29:51
New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL
Markustay Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 19:59:45
Well, sinc ethis IS a conversion, just about anything really goes, and its also 'not Earth', so there we go.

I think of the Knorr more like Conan/Cimmerians, which were based on more of a Germanic (Goth) type of people (so not the 'Aryan archtype' the Nazis loved so much, but rather, the reality that was the German people).

Now, if we picture the original (FR) Northmen coming from that large peninsula sticking out from the top of Anchorômé, and then those same peoples spreading south and west as well (on into all those islands and the 'continent' itself (I'm still in-love with the 'shattered land' concept for Anchorômé), then they may have settled the northern portion of Anchorômé, as we suspect RW Norse did here in the Americas, and if those same 'mixed' peoples reached all the way across to the other coast over the centuries, the Knorr may be distantly related to the Illusk people in much the same way that the Rashemi 'Rus' are, except instead of Slavic-like {Raumvari} blood, there's would be Anchorômé native, which could even maybe be the Poscador (sp?) elves, or at least, perhaps a small percentage of it - it could also be some other indigenous human population we haven't heard about (so something similar to RW native Americans, distantly related to the Mazticans).

Thus, in RW terms, the Knorr could be something akin to a Norse/Amerind hybrid (which fits both their 'look' and culture well).

And since I'm on this subject, and its just dawning on me - south American indigenous people are quite tiny compared to Europeans. I have to wonder, were their northern cousins of similar build, before an admixture of Norse blood? North American natives all have stories about 'warlike giants' - that may have meant the Norse, since they would indeed seem like giants compared to a people who were around 5' tall (the same could be said for the original inhabitants of the British islands, because they, too, have stories of 'invading giants'). Of course, this is all RW theory, so maybe this is not the place. Still, I find this sort of thing fascinating (comparing folklore to RW migrations, etc).

@GK - If you have Jakandor: Isle of War, look at the very first piece of artwork in that book. I too thought of them as 'Norse', but you can see clearly see there is quite a bit of 'Native American' going on there.

EDIT: Hmmmmm... and there is a pic on pg.5 where the guy's ear look a little pointy, almost like a half-elf.

Sure, its just one piece of artwork (I haven't looked beyond that page just now), but still, it could lend some relevance to my theory of Pocador elf blood mixed with northmen (there's also a bit of a 'druidic' vibe going on there, and with the face-paint one might also think 'Celtish').
George Krashos Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 04:41:14
I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos
sleyvas Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 23:49:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I could go along with the idea of putting Jakandor down by Osse. In fact, that may be the best place for it, just to give some form to the area. Having Jakandor being an island that was in Abeir and it appears between Osse and Malatra right around where it says "ern" in Eastern Sea on the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril would give it just enough isolation while also opening up the island to some neighboring areas that have at least has some development (Malatra and T'u Lung) and make it also a stepping stone into Osse.

The more I think on having the Knorrman people as being from Western Osse itself, the more I like it. Having the "allies" that the Knorrman people were trading with be from T'u Lung or Zakhara both could fit... or even having the Knorrman people being from that island on the southwestern side of Osse and the "allies" being from northern Osse. Then it would make sense that the two cultures were headed to war (the Knorrmans headed north) when the spellplague happens and they go to Abeir and then end up on Jakandor after the storm pushes them more westward and away from Osse (and in my version, I send Osse to Abeir as well... or at least some of the eastern portion of it).

So, at the end of the day, what does this get us? Jakandor to play with, relatively close to Kara-Tur and Malatra. It also gives us an idea of some of the cultures of western Osse that we can develop. It could make for a pretty decent campaign area, mixing jungle natives of Malatra (which has some unusual races), the people of Shou Lung, the Knorr, the Charonti, and possibly whatever we want to make of the "allies" which are from Osse.




Oh, and along those ideas.... IF the Knorr people were from those islands along southern Osse, and their transfer was over a hundred years ago..... and if only a portion of the continent of Osse (say the Eastern Islands and some of the eastern part of the continent)transferred to Abeir.... what's happened over the past 100 years with the Knorr folk who were down on that island and the part of Osse that "remained" on Toril? Did they conquer a large portion of Osse?

How would a return to Toril affect the islanders of Jakandor? Technically, they would still be isolated enough to still think that they're alone in the world. Might the Knorr see this as the War Mother signaling her displeasure and they must kill the Charonti at all costs?
sleyvas Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 23:40:01
I could go along with the idea of putting Jakandor down by Osse. In fact, that may be the best place for it, just to give some form to the area. Having Jakandor being an island that was in Abeir and it appears between Osse and Malatra right around where it says "ern" in Eastern Sea on the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril would give it just enough isolation while also opening up the island to some neighboring areas that have at least has some development (Malatra and T'u Lung) and make it also a stepping stone into Osse.

The more I think on having the Knorrman people as being from Western Osse itself, the more I like it. Having the "allies" that the Knorrman people were trading with be from T'u Lung or Zakhara both could fit... or even having the Knorrman people being from that island on the southwestern side of Osse and the "allies" being from northern Osse. Then it would make sense that the two cultures were headed to war (the Knorrmans headed north) when the spellplague happens and they go to Abeir and then end up on Jakandor after the storm pushes them more westward and away from Osse (and in my version, I send Osse to Abeir as well... or at least some of the eastern portion of it).

So, at the end of the day, what does this get us? Jakandor to play with, relatively close to Kara-Tur and Malatra. It also gives us an idea of some of the cultures of western Osse that we can develop. It could make for a pretty decent campaign area, mixing jungle natives of Malatra (which has some unusual races), the people of Shou Lung, the Knorr, the Charonti, and possibly whatever we want to make of the "allies" which are from Osse.
Markustay Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 18:30:20
@Bragi - I think I mentioned earlier the placement wasn't really to my liking - I made a big compromise, giving-up a major aspect of the Jakandor campaign setting (isolation) and trading it for 'usability' (because honestly, I don't think anything outside of Faerûn's 'Heartlands' gets much game-play).

Ideally, I think the sea around Osse would be best. In fact, there is a large island just SW of it that is just the right shape and size (although I don't think the climate is quite right, but you never know). Perhaps sitting all by itself, somewhere west of the straight that passes between Anchorome and Katashaka? As soon as we start moving it somewhere more accessible, we start to destroy the flavor, unfortunately (unless we fudge the flavor for 4e/5e, and say its been in Abeir, which works, which is what I think I was going for when I made that 'crowded' map).

I also think I mentioned the 'shattered continent' idea earlier in the thread (or elsewhere), but I really like where you took that - that the opposite pieces are in Abeir - that's pretty nifty, and very unconventional way to further link the two settings. You are sorely tempting me to look into that right now... must... resist.. LOL

If I wasn't trying to get something presentable out the door today for the Nentir/Neverwinter conversion I might have just done that. its a VERY cool idea.
I have ideas for the other continents and their 'mirror' selves, but not for that. I'll have to steal it, if and when I ever get around to a 'planet Abeir' map.

I would still love to shoe-horn Dragonlance onto that map (even though I know of two mods that wouldn't be thrilled by that LOL), because the two Krynish landmasses we know of are tiny compared to most settings. After all, I have every intention of swapping Greyhawk for Anchorme, so why not just go all the way and make FR the 'World of D&D'. Considering the place was ruled/overrun with 'draconic thingies & gods', it makes sense, IMO (seriously, just make draconians a specific form of dragonborn - didn't they do that in 4e anyway? I think they assigned the different versions of Draconians to to different 'tiers' of play, to account for stuff like the wings).

The northern hemisphere of Abeir should be a dry and desolate place (deserts and steamy jungles - good place to stick Dark Sun), and the southern hemisphere could be more temperate, especially near the southern pole (where I would stick Ansalon).

Just picture a world where there is almost zero traffic between land masses, especially ones far apart. The 'Deep Seas' would hold monsters that would consider Krakens a light snack (think 'Sea Kings' from One Piece for those monsters, and the Zaratan of the Al-Qadim setting). Also, you'd have truly ancient, eldritch dragons still around - ones that would be pretty-much 'gods' in their own right, so even airships wouldn't be a safe way to travel. The dragons themselves would be wary of flying to low, lest the 'Sea Kings' surface and grab them right out ofthe air (picture the final scene in the last Jurassic Park movie). Thus, only the insane or foolishly brave would take to the Oceans (local waters/seas would be somewhat safer, so lots of island-clusters where sea traffic is okay). In fact, there should only be a couple of large continents in the Northern hemisphere, and then just tons of archipelagos all over the southern waters.

Zero axial tilt, so the equator becomes a nigh-uncrossible 'boiling zone' of steamy mists and all sorts of other unpleasantness (perhaps these are the 'spawning waters' of the insanely huge sea monsters?) the 'Silvered Shield' of the skies prevents folks from looking in (literally bends light around it like a mirror - I've mentioned this before. Abeir is IN normal Realmspace, its just that its sort of invisible), and it also defuses the sunlight quite a bit (which is another reason sea voyage are so hard to do - no stars to navigate by; you'd need a Norse 'Sunstone' to even use the sun... which is kinda cool, because I can picture the minotaurs of Taladas having those).

I'm really in favor of WotC using the Sundering to pull a 'Crisis on multiple settings' thing, a'la DC comics.
Of course, except for people who are solely "D&D gamers", I'm probably alone in that among the die-hard fans. That would rock the boat of just about every separate D&D fandom. The Mystara guys might even think of THEIR setting as more of a 'sacred cow' than we do (and yes, i plan to butcher that and use it as well).
sleyvas Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 15:42:13
Two reasons for not putting it as an overlay of Lopango. Jakandor is supposed to be physically isolated as an island, and Lopango is attached to Maztica. Also, this puts successful spellcasters right up next to Maztica (and having been there for some time) and that doesn't fit the region

2nd reason is more personal. I like the concept of DMs guild. One of the things that I saw happen there is a group calling themselves Maztica Alive has published some material for Maztica and the Lopango area. Its not bad. Its not necessarily all to my taste either (for instance, they have these jungle orc sorcerers... and personally I don't see orc sorcerers being that common... warlocks and priests maybe). But, I'm adding to the Lopango area, but I'm specifically sticking to areas outside of what they detailed while using some of what they detailed (i.e. they have a "Natican" race of humans, a servile race of lizard folk called cayma, the aforementioned jungle orcs, etc...).

I'm also working up in Anchorome's area. I'm keeping the map roughly the same as it was portrayed with the Scholar's Guide to Abeir Toril. However, I'm only showing two snippets of the region. Specifically, I made a new map of the city of gold region (i.e. Pasocada Basin), and I had the city of Esh Alakar get taken over by red wizards. These red wizards find abundant sand nearby and decide they want to learn to make glassteel (since regular steel isn't so common here). This has resulted in a lot of "slag" glass, which they've used for decorative purposes AND to make a region I'm calling "the City on the Great Glass Sea".... essentially turning a small portion of the desert into a kind of large lake that they use weather magic to keep full. Not a major change for the region, but some improvement.

The other region I'm working on in Anchorome is Balduran Bay (or where Fort Flame was). Its stated in some older products that Fort Flame was looking for Calishite alchemical fire of some sort to burn the surrounding jungles. I stepped that up and had Thayans show up wanting an enclave and a large swathe of land (which the Thayans would have to build and hold themselves). In return they'd provide protection, offensive support against the native elves, and fire and other magical support. The story gets a little longer with refugees from the Thindol, Tashalar, and Samarach regions arriving, plus other Thayans fed up with the civil war. Essentially, Fort Flame/Balduran Bay becomes the first step of a lot of red wizard growth that occurs in the Maztica, Anchorome, Katashaka areas in the past century. Technically, Fort Flame would pretty much have no choice but to accept the offer, as they truthfully had no means to stop the red wizards going out in the woods and building their own settlement, and since the terms were amenable to both sides... they chose to work with them (and in my version its helped both sides).

I should stress, I'm making these tharchs all over the place, but for the most part, none of them are huge in population. They're "points of light" in that they are small holdings (most of these tharchs have at most 10 major cities and less than 250,000 people throughout, only a portion of which are human, and of those humans only a portion of which are Mulan). A couple (Luneira and Oslander Islands) will end up extremely small (less than probably 40,000 individuals), but serve to open up at least SOME exploration/discussion in the areas.
Bragi Posted - 13 Apr 2017 : 07:51:07
Hi Mark and Phillip, I'm just getting back in to running a Forgotten Realms campaign and I'm trying to at least get all of my major landmasses squared away. I really like the idea of using Jakandor but your map is a little too crowded for me but here's another idea. Why not just overlay Jakandor on top of Lopango? It looks like they are roughly the same size. All you would have to do is rotate Jakandor clockwise about 30 degrees. You could say that one is part of Abeir and one is part of Toril and when the Sundering took place they both materialized in the same location. You could have features of both or you could say that one fades out while the other one fades in. Like how the Black Fortress fades in on Krull.

That's similar to what I'm thinking of for Anchorome. I'd like to reconcile Ed's concept of a series of islands so I was considering the following homemade explanation: Anchorome is known as the lost continent both figuratively and literally. Before the time of the first Sundering Anchorome was a continent north of Maztica upon which lived a civilization of psionicists who foresaw the tragic actions of the High Magi in the Heartlands. Their warnings fell on deaf ears so they decided to attempt to save as much of their continent as they could. Combining their potent psychic powers they created a temporary weave of psionic energy that was formed when the sundering occurred but they were not as successful as they had hoped. They were unable to control such an enormous amount of energy. The continent of Anchorome was ripped asunder as it was torn between the worlds of Abeir and Toril. The ocean's waters rushed in to fill the gaps that the tears caused. For all of recorded history there stood towering pillars of land jutting out of the sea like teeth from a great leviathan. For every missing piece of land in Toril the opposite was true in Abeir. That is how the islands of Anchorome were formed both in toril and in Abeir like giant puzzle pieces that could never be put back together. The tales of Anchorome speak of a series of deadly islands separated by fierce currents but none knew the truth of what once was a mighty continent until after the Time of Troubles in 1358 DR. After AO destroyed the Tablets of Fate, remnants of the latent psionic energy started to reunite the shattered continent of Anchorome and was the very first place where Abeir and Toril started to switch. Eventually this caused a great disruption that Mystra was able to contain but it came at a great price. The greatly weakened Mystra was now vulnerable. Seizing the opportunity Cyric and Shar began their scheming which lead to the assassination of Mystra and the start of the Spellplague. By the time that Cordell reached Maztica in 1361 DR the continent of Anchorome has been restored but the tales that the people of Maztica told were too wild to be taken seriously and the first omen of the Spellplague was ignored.
Markustay Posted - 24 Mar 2017 : 19:07:18
So perhaps my placing Returned Abeir near Jakandor wasn't so silly after all?
sleyvas Posted - 24 Mar 2017 : 13:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).


Maybe this can help:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieking_Chasm



Interesting.

"The sounds that emerged from the chasm were so terrible that many believed the Shrieking Chasm was the prison of a mad primordial who betrayed its kin to the gods during the Dawn War. The inhabitants of Relmaur preferred to avoid the chasm for that reason."

So, perhaps instead of a primordial imprisoned for betrayed for betraying the other primordials ... perhaps a primordial imprisoned by the gods for betraying them..... possibly he provided the ritual to the Batrachi which led to the freeing of the other primordials? Not wanting to copy Norse mythology completely, so the twists to include a Loki-like entity might be that


Valigan Thirdborn is born of a primordial being resembling a storm giant (Talos) mating with a primordial entity of decaying wood (Moander). From Moander's rotting mass, a burning section of leaves and pine needles is separated, forming Valigan's body from the ashes. He is the thirdborn son, with little known of the other two. He is represented as a trickster, chaos incarnate, and a lord of wildfires.

Valigan Thirdborn mates with and produces Kezef the Chaos Hound, Ourobouros the World Serpent, and the first death goddess upon Shar/Selune.

Valigan Thirdborn, in seeking to aid the gods in a deal against a powerful Primordial seeking the hand of a beautiful goddess, draws away the primordial entity's primordial horse servant by transforming into a mare. Several months later, the progenitor race of the asperii and ki-rin are born.

Valigan Thirdborn is imprisoned by the gods during the shadowed age beneath a mountain. <insert name of serpent god to be above him> is placed above him to forever drip venom upon him. However, his later wife, Asynja, a goddess of peace and healing, chooses to disobey their lord and stands with a great bowl to catch the venom and turn it from her husband. However, periodically, she must empty the bowl, and when she does the primordial howls.

Valigan Thirdborn is still entrapped beneath the Howling Mountains of Relmaur, specifically in the region known as the shrieking chasm.

Valigan has managed to free an avatar of himself on several occasions throughout history. On such occasions, Tyr, the lord of justice, is dispatched to end his dealings with mortals. One such instance was when he revealed to the Batrachi the method of freeing several entrapped primordials (including himself). As a result, Ao twinned the world rather than see it destroyed, and Valigan Thirdborn was shunted to Abeir.
Zeromaru X Posted - 24 Mar 2017 : 06:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).


Maybe this can help:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieking_Chasm
sleyvas Posted - 24 Mar 2017 : 03:43:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmmm... reading further into their religion -they were devout to this deity, and very powerful magically, and then came this 'great disaster' (the plague), and they lost most of their power.

It could be they revered Shar before going to Abeir, and then 'lost contact' with her when that plague struck, and thats when they gave up religion. Then again, if thats what happened, then there really isn't even a reason for bringing Shar into this (except we still need 'death magic', which works better with the Shadoweave).

Unless... Charonti death-magic has nothing to do with necromancy - there IS nothing evil about it. Maybe what they are doing is more along the lines of creating a 'flesh golem', so it could be more elemental - and therefor tied to primoridals - than traditional zombie-making magics. They're just using corpses as a ready-made vessel for elemental spirits. And this doesn't mean we'd have to lose any Thayan or Sahu connections - they could have used traditional necromantic magic back wile they were in Faerûn, and then switched after the disaster (which landed them in Abeir).



One thing that could also be is that the shadow weave may NOT be totally controlled by Shar. For instance, what if Leira (as goddess of illusions) also has some control of the shadow weave. I also mentioned the idea of Hel having some control of the shadow weave. Velsharoon may have not known it, but he may have also been able to control the shadow weave. If we take this idea into things, it could be that Mystryl wasn't the only entity born of the two sides of Shar/Selune during their splitting into separate aspects.
sleyvas Posted - 24 Mar 2017 : 03:33:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Two things - I hadn't noticed before the similarities of some of Faerûn's plagues, and the Spellplague. We've had a plethora of these 'plagues' throughout Toril's history - ones that are not only magically resistant, but seem to specifically target Mages. Could this be some sort of hint within the lore that there was some event at that time that caused 'magical destabilization'? Ed has always held that The Weave (magic) = 'Life', so if The Weave was damaged from time to time - and its the 'lifeforce' of Toril itself (what I refer to as 'the Gaea') - then it is possible this manifested as some sort of 'Weave sickness' amongst mortals.

Secondly, if Abeir IS in Realmspace (and everything says it is), and the Weave extends to 'all of Realmspace' (and unless something changed, that was also always true), then Abeir had to be within the sphere of influence of The Weave, even if tapping into it was blocked somehow. It could be something along the lines of the way magic works in the Outlands - different 'levels' of magic permeate different 'rings' at different strengths (so maybe whatever pocket-plane Abeir was shoved into didn't have 'full access' to the Weave/Arcane magic, which is why I'm starting to think the Shadoworld makes the most sense). Thus, each 'echo' of The Realms would have slightly different 'physics' in regards to how magic works there (like the astral, ethereal, Shadow, Feywild, etc).

Its funny, because I am always relating magic to RW science - what if every dimension (transitive plane?) is one of these 'echos', and each it tuned to different type of magic? Quantum theorists say that different planes affect others at different levels of power (hence 'the strong force' and 'the weak force', etc), so maybe maybe that's how it works in magic and the planes as well? Some are just more conducive to certain 'energies'.

And Abeir also didn't have 'gods', and yet, it had Primordials, which ARE 'gods', just a different kind. What it didn't have is deities... and yet we know the elemental lords were at least considered deities at one point. So the rules are not as 'written in stone' as it may seem. Perhaps 'doing magic' on Abeir required paying lip-service to primordials, who were running the show, so it was all sort-of like clerical magic? And we've been suspecting that both Shar and Selûne are actually primordials (or at least were). Maybe that is one way Abeirrans overcame 'the ban' - by paying lip-service to Shar, she shared with them the secret of the Shadow weave, and they were able to use that. The main Charonti deity was known as Thanotep - Thano? That means 'death' - it may have been an alias of Shar. On the other hand, looking at that, I would definitely place that with the Mulan, not the Mazticans, so a 'Thayan connection' may exist after all.




I would almost say it would be interesting to have Hel be the first death "entity" of the realms. We already have "the Fenris Wolf" in the form of Kezef the Chaos Hound, and we have Jormungand (sp?) in the form of the World Serpent, and we have Nidhogg in the form of Dendar the Night Serpent. Given her white and dark sides, she absolutely could fit as some kind of spawn of the Shar/Selune entity. If Loki were to still be Hel's father, that would make Shar/Selune the equivalent of Angrboda (or "she who offers sorrow" in Norse). Not saying we should make that equation, just giving some parallels.

Anyway, what got me thinking about it was the idea that the Charonti were worshipping a male aspect of Hel while on Abeir (because if "she" has a light and dark side, why not both sexes... and given Loki's ability to change from male to female).

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).

And just reading about Loki's father Farbauti says his myth is that he is lightning (Farbauti) which strikes leaves (Laufey) to produce wildfire (Loki). I have always considered tying Talos to the Norse pantheon, and actually this could be an interesting way of doing it. EDIT: even more interesting, Farbauti is also noted as being Bergelmir, or the only giant remaining after the flood of blood from Ymir's death. So, instead of Talos being involved, Loki might either be a brother of Annam or son of Annam (and Annam is Bergelmir/Farbauti). Laufey/Nal appears to be a primordial/goddess with ties to plants (her name means either leaves or pine needles). So, a sick, twisted part of me is thinking Laufey equals Moander. Another sick twisted part of me is thinking Talos is instead Bergelmir/Farbauti and that the unnamed sky god that Annam produced the giant gods with was maybe Talos.... and maybe Talos doesn't like to be reminded of this... yeah, its late, and I'm tired. Of course, were any of this to be presented, it wouldn't use any of the norse names.

So, the round about method I was thinking here was that perhaps Hel was sent to Abeir, and centuries later the Charonti come over, and she begins answering their prayers and powering their magic. If she is some kind of daughter of Shar/Selune she may have ties to the shadow weave and is using the death energy (rather than life energy) of beings to power it.
Markustay Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 22:58:12
Hmmmmm... reading further into their religion -they were devout to this deity, and very powerful magically, and then came this 'great disaster' (the plague), and they lost most of their power.

It could be they revered Shar before going to Abeir, and then 'lost contact' with her when that plague struck, and thats when they gave up religion. Then again, if thats what happened, then there really isn't even a reason for bringing Shar into this (except we still need 'death magic', which works better with the Shadoweave).

Unless... Charonti death-magic has nothing to do with necromancy - there IS nothing evil about it. Maybe what they are doing is more along the lines of creating a 'flesh golem', so it could be more elemental - and therefor tied to primoridals - than traditional zombie-making magics. They're just using corpses as a ready-made vessel for elemental spirits. And this doesn't mean we'd have to lose any Thayan or Sahu connections - they could have used traditional necromantic magic back wile they were in Faerûn, and then switched after the disaster (which landed them in Abeir).
Markustay Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 22:48:57
Two things - I hadn't noticed before the similarities of some of Faerûn's plagues, and the Spellplague. We've had a plethora of these 'plagues' throughout Toril's history - ones that are not only magically resistant, but seem to specifically target Mages. Could this be some sort of hint within the lore that there was some event at that time that caused 'magical destabilization'? Ed has always held that The Weave (magic) = 'Life', so if The Weave was damaged from time to time - and its the 'lifeforce' of Toril itself (what I refer to as 'the Gaea') - then it is possible this manifested as some sort of 'Weave sickness' amongst mortals.

Secondly, if Abeir IS in Realmspace (and everything says it is), and the Weave extends to 'all of Realmspace' (and unless something changed, that was also always true), then Abeir had to be within the sphere of influence of The Weave, even if tapping into it was blocked somehow. It could be something along the lines of the way magic works in the Outlands - different 'levels' of magic permeate different 'rings' at different strengths (so maybe whatever pocket-plane Abeir was shoved into didn't have 'full access' to the Weave/Arcane magic, which is why I'm starting to think the Shadoworld makes the most sense). Thus, each 'echo' of The Realms would have slightly different 'physics' in regards to how magic works there (like the astral, ethereal, Shadow, Feywild, etc).

Its funny, because I am always relating magic to RW science - what if every dimension (transitive plane?) is one of these 'echos', and each it tuned to different type of magic? Quantum theorists say that different planes affect others at different levels of power (hence 'the strong force' and 'the weak force', etc), so maybe maybe that's how it works in magic and the planes as well? Some are just more conducive to certain 'energies'.

And Abeir also didn't have 'gods', and yet, it had Primordials, which ARE 'gods', just a different kind. What it didn't have is deities... and yet we know the elemental lords were at least considered deities at one point. So the rules are not as 'written in stone' as it may seem. Perhaps 'doing magic' on Abeir required paying lip-service to primordials, who were running the show, so it was all sort-of like clerical magic? And we've been suspecting that both Shar and Selûne are actually primordials (or at least were). Maybe that is one way Abeirrans overcame 'the ban' - by paying lip-service to Shar, she shared with them the secret of the Shadow weave, and they were able to use that. The main Charonti deity was known as Thanotep - Thano? That means 'death' - it may have been an alias of Shar. On the other hand, looking at that, I would definitely place that with the Mulan, not the Mazticans, so a 'Thayan connection' may exist after all.
sleyvas Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 20:24:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.
Well, thats why I put it the way I did - "two sides of the same coin". We have Selûne/Shar, and we have Weave/Shadoweave, and we have Toril/Abeir... so my thinking now is that they aren't truly separate things at all - they have always been 'two sides of the same coin', and just like you could still use shadow-magic on Toril, you'd have been able to use regular magic on Abeir - you'd just be 'pulling from the other side', as it were.

So Abeir and Toril aren't two separate planets in the usual sense - its more like the same planet in two different quantum realities. My thinking here is that moving between Abeir & Toril should be no different than moving to the astral, ethereal, Shadow, etc - you're still on the same world, your just in a different 'echo' of it. Hell, now that I've just said that, it almost makes sense to say Abeir has been in the Plane of Shadows all along (encased in its own protective sphere).

Thus, what I said doesn't negate what we know of the Shadow Weave; in fact, it builds upon it. The Shadoweave (can we just using this shorter version?) has ALWAYS existed - its the 'spaces between the Weave'. That means they were always there. The Sadoweave is nothing new, its just that its power wasn't as accessible before, for whatever reason. Something changed that. I don't think it was the ToT, I think that event merely strengthened it mightily (Shar finally made overt moves and knowledge of it was no longer secret). I would hazard to guess she first began pulling her half back into Toril when the Weave fell during Karsus' Folly.

And Mytryl/Mytsra should have always had access to both halves, since she IS both halves. Which means the Weave should have extended into Abeir (and canonically, it would have to, since it extends into the entirety of Realmspace, and Abeir is definitely 'in' Realmspace).

So it goes like this - Daddy Ao pulls the two catfighting sisters apart (literally) and creates Abeir & Toril. 'Mystryl' is an amalgam of the two - a hybrid of both halves - and is given jurisdiction over the magc of both halves (much to Shar's chagrin). It's very similar to how Tyche was split into Tymora and Beshaba... hmmmm... come to think of it... VERY similar...

But in reverse...



And in theory, perhaps the shadow weave was open to anyone in Abeir, but "weavecasting" required some special devotion / feat. Thus, there may have been shadow weave based arcanists in Abeir (such as the Charonti). If I were to take that assertion, it could explain why those who "have knowledge" of Abeir say that the weave isn't there in canon lore. Of course, I put a slightly different spin on it for following the spellplague (i.e. dweomerheart was tied to Abeir instead of Toril), and the exact effects of that I've yet to work out, other than weave casting in Abeir wasn't an issue during the spellplague year except in certain areas.
sleyvas Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 20:14:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Don't like the idea that Jakandor was on Abeir, eh?

Abeir didn't have 'The Weave', or, at least, magic didn't work the same way.

But what if the Shadow Weave extended there? Or better yet, what if it STARTED there? What if the 'two sides of the same coin' thing extended all the way to the planets themselves? One the 'positive', the other the 'negative' - two poles of magic. Both worlds could use both - Shadow & Arcane magic - but each was more condusive to using one type over the other.

Maybe Abeir has been more prone to necromantic magics all along.

Also fairly easy to connect the Charonti to the Thayans, in a round-about fashion. I've already connected the Charonti to Sahu (a pretty simple conclusion to draw), and say both are 'survivor states' of the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara. But what if the Ruined Kingdoms themselves were survivor states of Imaskar? Iamskari history goes back over 11K years, but Al-Qadim's official history only goes back a thousand (although an entry in the GHotR puts its history into it's own 'prehistory' period, by connecting it to The Realms).

We KNOW Imaskar had far-flung 'colonies' (outposts?) all over the place, many of which canonically became survivor states after Imaskar itself fell (and there are over a dozen - perhaps even more than 20). I've also threorized in the old (now sadly defunct) Utter East Thread/project over on the WotC boards that Imaskar had also settled the Utter East (and the Golden Waters region), in much the same fashion that Rome had non-Roman provinces all over the place. We did that because I need to weave some lore together concerning the Bloodforges, and also a Keep that was in the region (from the video game).

So if Imaskar had pushed into the Utter east like I think, and had used their Mulan slaves mostly to do so, that would give us a 'Thay-like' race on the northern border of Zakahara. Now, they may have either pushed into those jungles while still be part of Imaskar, or may have done so after Imaskar fell, to escape their former masters (since the further-away outposts would still be intact, just in disarray after the empire fell).

So Imaskar settles the Utter East, and its Mulhorandi slaves settle into northern Zakahara, creating the Fallen Kingdoms (perhaps with help from Mir fleeing west from the fall of Tampat Larang, which involved the First Emperor of Shou-Lung, and as we know, Tan Chin was part of Anok-Imaskar before creating Shou Lung), and then those kingdoms fell (we had a 3000 year period between the fall of Imaskar and the beginnings of "the recorded known histories' of Zakhara), but survivors had settled other regions (as all empires do), which probably included Sahu and may have included Jakandor.

What if there was a 'mini Sundering' during the Godwar in Imaskar? We had 'magical chaos' during the ToT, which was a similar event (and perhaps even less disruptive, at least n a localized level). Perhaps Imaskar itself had a major colony on a far-off island, at the end of the Farsahalla(?) Archipeligo. A colony that had a large number of their Mulan slaves. Maybe the island got shunted into Abeir to protect back then (from Pharonic wrath), and the Mulan slaves were able to rise against their masters, once their masters no longer had the backing of their empire (or it could have just been a natural occurrence - the massive number of slaves simply racial absorbing the smaller number of 'overseers', over the course of time).


This all me just "throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks" 9for you). As for me, I actually see the Charonti as being very Mesoamerican, so i would connect them to Maztica instead (saying Maztica and its kingdoms were 'survivor states' of the Jakandor empire). Since I presented the psuedo-lore in 'buffet style', you pick & choose what you like and discard the rest (or ignore it al, if you prefer). For example, going with what I just said, what if Jakandor was an Imaskari colony , and when Imaskar fell they themselves rose to become an empire, settling large swaths of Maztica. Then something happens (like the island getting moved to Abeir, or even Ravenloft (), perhaps during the chaos that ensued when Karsus did his thing and The Weave 'hiccuped'), and the Jakandor empire in turn collapses (because the capitol 'went missing'), leaving the Maztican colonies to rise into kingdoms themselves (until the arrival of the ebil Euro... ummm... Farûnians).

Now, they could have run into the Knorr in Abeir (or even in RL, if that floats your boat - they ARE very similar to the Abber Nomads of the Nightmare Lands), OR, the Knorr could have come from Anchorômé, as you ascertain (and I was with you on that one, until maybe yesterday, because yet-another project I've taken under my wing). If they Knorr came from Anchorômé, then they would be part of the same proto-group that spawned FR's Northmen. They are 'darker' (more like Robert Howard's Cimmerians, than his Vanaheim/Asgard), so we could theorize a certain admixture of 'native' blood (whatever culture exists over on that continent) and the original proto-Northmen (Illu-Pozi?)

Going a step further, and going somewhat outside this thread's intent, our 'Northemn group' may have come for the island chain that Ed called Anchorômé, which is NOT 'the big continent' - according to Ed, the continent itself was NOT named, and somewhat further west. I really need to do a mock-up map of how I picture Ed's version of that region one of these days (he went into great detail on the old Realm L-list about those island chains - there were several, include a kingdom or three).



No, I'm firmly of the belief that Jakandor was in Abeir, probably ever since the wasting plague. In fact, if we take a step back and consider the description of "the wasting plague", the effects seem very similar to the spellplague. Spellcasters are the center point of the "plague", and whenever they use magic it has a tendency to go awry and "infect" the person. Afterwards, for over five centuries, there are these areas of "plagueland".

The differences here to note are that if we do take this assumption that they were in Abeir since the wasting plague, there was this rise of "magelords" in Charonti history. Abeir is supposed to be without a bunch of wizards. So, either these magelords were wielding magic via some other means (warlocks? sorcerers? binders? shadow weave? Shadow Magic?), or the rumors about arcane magic not working in Abeir become incorrect (possibly in localized areas).

Anyway, I'm of the mind that Jakandor was in Abeir. I surmise the Knorr came from Toril to Abeir at the start of the spellplague. I then surmise that Jakandor has come from Abeir to Toril at the end of the sundering, replacing an island of similar shape that was previously labeled "tabaxiland" on another map.

In fact, it could be interesting if the whole "tabaxiland" / Jakandor thing is something where only portions of Jakandor transferred to Abeir long ago, merging with an island of similar shape and leaving some of their culture behind in "tabaxiland". That could give some leeway for using the culture itself in both worlds following the "wasting plague".

I then surmise that
Markustay Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 17:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.
Well, that's why I put it the way I did - "two sides of the same coin". We have Selûne/Shar, and we have Weave/Shadoweave, and we have Toril/Abeir... so my thinking now is that they aren't truly separate things at all - they have always been 'two sides of the same coin', and just like you could still use shadow-magic on Toril, you'd have been able to use regular magic on Abeir - you'd just be 'pulling from the other side', as it were.

So Abeir and Toril aren't two separate planets in the usual sense - its more like the same planet in two different quantum realities. My thinking here is that moving between Abeir & Toril should be no different than moving to the astral, ethereal, Shadow, etc - you're still on the same world, your just in a different 'echo' of it. Hell, now that I've just said that, it almost makes sense to say Abeir has been in the Plane of Shadows all along (encased in its own protective sphere).

Thus, what I said doesn't negate what we know of the Shadow Weave; in fact, it builds upon it. The Shadoweave (can we just using this shorter version?) has ALWAYS existed - its the 'spaces between the Weave'. That means they were always there. The Shadoweave is nothing new, its just that its power wasn't as accessible before, for whatever reason. Something changed that. I don't think it was the ToT, I think that event merely strengthened it mightily (Shar finally made overt moves and knowledge of it was no longer secret). I would hazard to guess she first began pulling her half back into Toril when the Weave fell during Karsus' Folly.

And Mytryl/Mystra should have always had access to both halves, since she IS both halves. Which means the Weave should have extended into Abeir (and canonically, it would have to, since it extends into the entirety of Realmspace, and Abeir is definitely 'in' Realmspace).

So it goes like this - Daddy Ao pulls the two catfighting sisters apart (literally) and creates Abeir & Toril. 'Mystryl' is an amalgam of the two - a hybrid of both halves - and is given jurisdiction over the magic of both halves (much to Shar's chagrin). It's very similar to how Tyche was split into Tymora and Beshaba... hmmmm... come to think of it... VERY similar...

But in reverse...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 16:10:10
If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.
Markustay Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 15:59:12
Don't like the idea that Jakandor was on Abeir, eh?

Abeir didn't have 'The Weave', or, at least, magic didn't work the same way.

But what if the Shadow Weave extended there? Or better yet, what if it STARTED there? What if the 'two sides of the same coin' thing extended all the way to the planets themselves? One the 'positive', the other the 'negative' - two poles of magic. Both worlds could use both - Shadow & Arcane magic - but each was more condusive to using one type over the other.

Maybe Abeir has been more prone to necromantic magics all along.

Also fairly easy to connect the Charonti to the Thayans, in a round-about fashion. I've already connected the Charonti to Sahu (a pretty simple conclusion to draw), and say both are 'survivor states' of the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara. But what if the Ruined Kingdoms themselves were survivor states of Imaskar? Iamskari history goes back over 11K years, but Al-Qadim's official history only goes back a thousand (although an entry in the GHotR puts its history into it's own 'prehistory' period, by connecting it to The Realms).

We KNOW Imaskar had far-flung 'colonies' (outposts?) all over the place, many of which canonically became survivor states after Imaskar itself fell (and there are over a dozen - perhaps even more than 20). I've also threorized in the old (now sadly defunct) Utter East Thread/project over on the WotC boards that Imaskar had also settled the Utter East (and the Golden Waters region), in much the same fashion that Rome had non-Roman provinces all over the place. We did that because I need to weave some lore together concerning the Bloodforges, and also a Keep that was in the region (from the video game).

So if Imaskar had pushed into the Utter east like I think, and had used their Mulan slaves mostly to do so, that would give us a 'Thay-like' race on the northern border of Zakahara. Now, they may have either pushed into those jungles while still be part of Imaskar, or may have done so after Imaskar fell, to escape their former masters (since the further-away outposts would still be intact, just in disarray after the empire fell).

So Imaskar settles the Utter East, and its Mulhorandi slaves settle into northern Zakahara, creating the Fallen Kingdoms (perhaps with help from Mir fleeing west from the fall of Tampat Larang, which involved the First Emperor of Shou-Lung, and as we know, Tan Chin was part of Anok-Imaskar before creating Shou Lung), and then those kingdoms fell (we had a 3000 year period between the fall of Imaskar and the beginnings of "the recorded known histories' of Zakhara), but survivors had settled other regions (as all empires do), which probably included Sahu and may have included Jakandor.

What if there was a 'mini Sundering' during the Godwar in Imaskar? We had 'magical chaos' during the ToT, which was a similar event (and perhaps even less disruptive, at least n a localized level). Perhaps Imaskar itself had a major colony on a far-off island, at the end of the Farsahalla(?) Archipeligo. A colony that had a large number of their Mulan slaves. Maybe the island got shunted into Abeir to protect back then (from Pharonic wrath), and the Mulan slaves were able to rise against their masters, once their masters no longer had the backing of their empire (or it could have just been a natural occurrence - the massive number of slaves simply racial absorbing the smaller number of 'overseers', over the course of time).


This all me just "throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks" 9for you). As for me, I actually see the Charonti as being very Mesoamerican, so i would connect them to Maztica instead (saying Maztica and its kingdoms were 'survivor states' of the Jakandor empire). Since I presented the psuedo-lore in 'buffet style', you pick & choose what you like and discard the rest (or ignore it al, if you prefer). For example, going with what I just said, what if Jakandor was an Imaskari colony , and when Imaskar fell they themselves rose to become an empire, settling large swaths of Maztica. Then something happens (like the island getting moved to Abeir, or even Ravenloft (), perhaps during the chaos that ensued when Karsus did his thing and The Weave 'hiccuped'), and the Jakandor empire in turn collapses (because the capitol 'went missing'), leaving the Maztican colonies to rise into kingdoms themselves (until the arrival of the ebil Euro... ummm... Farûnians).

Now, they could have run into the Knorr in Abeir (or even in RL, if that floats your boat - they ARE very similar to the Abber Nomads of the Nightmare Lands), OR, the Knorr could have come from Anchorômé, as you ascertain (and I was with you on that one, until maybe yesterday, because yet-another project I've taken under my wing). If they Knorr came from Anchorômé, then they would be part of the same proto-group that spawned FR's Northmen. They are 'darker' (more like Robert Howard's Cimmerians, than his Vanaheim/Asgard), so we could theorize a certain admixture of 'native' blood (whatever culture exists over on that continent) and the original proto-Northmen (Illu-Pozi?)

Going a step further, and going somewhat outside this thread's intent, our 'Northemn group' may have come for the island chain that Ed called Anchorômé, which is NOT 'the big continent' - according to Ed, the continent itself was NOT named, and somewhat further west. I really need to do a mock-up map of how I picture Ed's version of that region one of these days (he went into great detail on the old Realm L-list about those island chains - there were several, include a kingdom or three).
sleyvas Posted - 23 Mar 2017 : 02:06:56
Thanks for the response Markustay. Yes, I remember when I first read it that I thought two things

A) there should be a link to the necromancer kings of the isle of Sahu.
B) The look of the Charonti LOOKS very Thayan, and their focus on Necromantic magic is also very Thayan like. I was actually playing with the idea that the red wizards that I have getting transferred to Abeir actually have a small group of themselves that travel into the past while on Abeir through essentially something that looks like a stargate. They themselves become the progenitors of the Charonti. I'm not sure if I like it, but it could prove interesting if they ever actually visit Jakandor.

I was also playing with the whole "who are the Knorr" and "where are they from". From their history, they were at war with another empire. I was also thinking the Northmen original culture. I was also thinking somewhere near Anchorome... possibly relatives of the Metahel which are stranded in the Pasocada Basin (i.e. City of Gold region). So, I'm thinking Aurune, and the island to the west of Anchorome. Yes, the exact same idea of they transferred to Abeir a century ago, arrived in Jakandor (which was already in Abeir from centuries ago) and then Jakandor returns to Toril.

I'm still leaning toward that unnamed island (the one labeled "tabaxiland"). I would also note that the reorientation of "North" has something to do with the transfer between worlds. I also note that the story of the Tabaxi going to Chult mentions people learning of "matumbe" which sounds like magic.... and maybe the wasting plague also made the lack of arcane knowledge throughout Katashaka, Maztica, and this region.
Markustay Posted - 19 Mar 2017 : 01:01:12
I wanted to make it somewhat more realistic - the 'donut' shaped continent/island is an over-used trope, IMO, so I tweaked it a little.

The original map was even worse then the 4e FR one, which I was told by 'official sources' was meant to be more suggestive, than definitive. An 'abstract' version of a real map, I believe was the word used (which may or may not have just been an excuse, because the 4e map was so ugly and inaccurate).

So you might ask, how could the only version of a map be an 'abstracted' version? (referring to the Returned Abeir map) Other than the fact it was done in the same style, of course? Because Ed said as much - that the map that appeared in the 4e FRCG was 'off' from what he visualized (I can't recall if he said he drew a rough map or not). For example, he said the eastern 'arm' was supposed to be 'fatter', with far more unexplored wilderness. Thats part of the reason why I made that side fatter (that, plus I like the adventuring opportunities a narrow channel with a 'pinch point' somewhere around the middle affords).

So now the shape is somewhat more 'natural' looking (the inlet/central bay also doesn't extend as far north). And I didn't lose anything, really - it is just 'squished' on the right side now.

Thus, this is just another way of ME interpreting the 'stylized' 4e map. I'm pretty sure no-one else ever did one, so its all good. The ports there make more sense now, since they are all equally (pretty much) reachable, and the fact that they have trade with both Faerûn and Zakhara also means all ports would be busy (part of world building is understanding things have to exist for a reason - one of the things I did for another setting not too long ago was reorganize locales, because there were things like "a trade-hub city" sitting on the edge of the map, with no-one to trade with, and nothing worth trading. I've found since I've started doing this that a lot of perfectly intelligent and talented people don't understand that just because something is 'fantasy' doesn't mean it doesn't have to have sound logic behind it.

And this is why I constantly tweak maps, and not just The Realms; a map is more than just a picture of terrain - it needs to pull you in and make you feel like its a living, breathing biosphere. That there are people and other things living their entire lives there. Thats the difference between a map you walk past at a convention, and one that makes you stop dead in your tracks and ask questions. Good maps make you want to know more.
Zeromaru X Posted - 18 Mar 2017 : 19:21:11
I'm going to steal this map. I don't knew about Jakandor, but don't mind about it, either (can be useful). Since the Sundering 2.0 I was planing to use Laerakond like a personal sandbox, and this map is perfect for that.

I've noted, however, that the map of Laerakond is kinda different from your earlier one or the canon one (the shape). No problemo with that either, but I noticed the change.
Markustay Posted - 18 Mar 2017 : 18:40:19
This one is a little better - more detail, and I swapped-in the finer version from above -

More Detailed version of 5e FR w/Abeir AND Jakandor (and if you're not a fan of Jakandor, just ignore it).

Note I colored the two large islands/subcontinents to match the FRIA map better. The Dragon's Head peninsula also looks a lot more normal now.
Markustay Posted - 18 Mar 2017 : 16:04:42
Heres another map from the FRIA - one with a close-up of the coast -

West Coast of Faerûn

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