Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Elven High Magic: Flawed or Troped?

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert Email Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON
Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]
Rolling Eyes [8|] Confused [?!:] Help [?:] King [3|:]
Laughing [:OD] What [W] Oooohh [:H] Down [:E]

  Check here to include your profile signature.
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
    

T O P I C    R E V I E W
El Oso Gigante Posted - 15 Mar 2017 : 19:59:06
Elven High Magic creates the elven homeland of Evermeet, and causes the Sundering, killing millions in the process. High magic brings low the dragon overlords, and continues to cause dragon rages down through the millennia, killing (probably) millions in the process. High magic curses the irredeemably evil Illithyri, and also curses (probably) thousands of innocent dark elves in the process. Mythals get corrupted and cause problems, et cetera.

So I guess my question for the sages (Hurrah I finally thought of one!) is: "Is high magic inherently flawed or broken somehow, or do I just think that because 'hubris of elves' just maybe a little overused? Or is it not really overused but the catastrophes are just what history remembers?"

p.s. hurray first post! You guys are great!
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
CorellonsDevout Posted - 05 Apr 2017 : 16:27:40
It's clear that high elven magic is a very potent form of magic, and while the elves were equipped to use it (thus the name elven high magic), I don't think even they fully understood it's powers, which could be one of the reasons it went out of control in events like the first Sundering.
TBeholder Posted - 05 Apr 2017 : 09:35:37
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Magic, whatever form it takes, is never perfect, and it's all how the wielder uses it.

Or in 6 letters: PEBCAK.

But then, they know it's not the answer to everything, too.
Which leads us to a more interesting problem: whether and how the existence and peculiar properties of High Magic could have affected the views of its wielders, and then by extension other elves, to better and/or worse.
And perhaps this could be one of the factors that subtly crippled them?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 04 Apr 2017 : 19:57:33
Magic, whatever form it takes, is never perfect, and it's all how the wielder uses it. Elven high magic is a very powerful form of magic, but the more powerful forces you deal with, the more you can accomplish...and the more you can destroy. There is less room for mistakes, and things can go wrong if you aren't careful. The elves could do great things with their magic, but they also can cause great destruction. I think it's also a matter of things keeping themselves in balance (create something, something else may be destroyed, for example).

In certain instances, it was the hubris of the high elven mages. I love elves, but they can be an arrogant people, particularly the sun elves.
Wrigley Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 12:19:51
@TBeholder - thanks for more lore to the discussion.
I have been baffled as I have not delved into high magic itself so much until now and it seems that only wizards can become high mages. I had thought (probably read it somewhere) that main use of high magic was a divine one...can somebody clarify it?

So there is no explanation of how Ilighon came to be this way so my theory is plausible.

BTW in Magic of Faerun p.13 there is a confirmation by divination that Dark Disaster was called by elves (not directly saying Arivandaar)
TBeholder Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 21:17:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


Your DOGMA HAMMER again?

Me no take the candle.
quote:
Elven High Magic elf-only...Elminster and others who took part in creating at least one Mythal?

It's a "wizardly" mythal, not High Magic one. And even HM mythals allow participation of non-elves, simply because secondary casters don't need to be High Mages:
quote:
this third ring of nine people often
consists of those three High Mages with six high-level wizards
or High Mage initiates (if not full High Mages)
. Only the central
four High Mages are actually casting the mythal; the outer
nine are secondary casters adding powers to the mythal and
energy to the link between all casters.
[...]
While many elves deny this fact, nonelves can be part of
this ritual too. They can occupy a position in any ring outside
of the primary casters, and N'Tel'Quess mages could even
contribute secondary powers to a mythal. This is one of very
few ways a N'Tel'Quess can experience what it means to be
an elf.
[...]
Due to a High Magic
backlash centuries before, Mythanthor was stripped of some
power and reduced to wizardly magic forevermore. Since
that time, he sought to duplicate some of his former High
Magics by wizardly means, including this greatest of feats.
- Cormanthyr


Which explains a lot, of course.
quote:
Is there anything saying how exactly was the tidal weave summoned by elves of Chondalwood?
Just that it was High Magic, and in the Year of Furious Waves (-255 DR).
And that it also flushed Coryselmal and buried everything around it.
There don't seem to be any disagreements in lore on this event - e.g. here.

quote:
Is there any explanation of this island fenomenon?

Yup.
quote:
This special area of magic, called a faith-magic zone, is
said to be a special gift to Silvanus from the goddess Mys-
tra. While the reasons behind such a gift are shrouded in
legend—ranging from a favor for Silvanus aiding Mystra
in a long-ago battle against Bane to a reward to Silvanus
for teaching Mystra how magic can be used to help the
land—the fact that it remains to this day is not in ques-
tion. All attempts to dispel or negate the effects, even
temporarily, have proven utterly ineffective.
- Vilhon Reach

Which is the only way it could make sense. Because if it was not agreed upon by Mystra, a large Weave anomaly usually is something that should be repaired. And if it wasn't a priority before, once she noticed the locals stumbled upon a bright idea of doing in wizards and Harpers with impunity, it would probably end in a visit of some Chosen, invisible (since they are not affected by such things too much) and without prior notice, to quietly fix the problem and leave this to be discovered the hard way.
quote:
Descent was explicitly said to be work of the Seldarine who answered prayers of elven priests. There was a mention of great elven ritual but first it was a plea to the gods.

Well, yeah.
Not that this really says much. Even if it wasn't divinely inspired, they'd be fools not to check with their gods before doing something on such a scale, if only because gods may have other plans and there's always possibility of ugly side effects. Those Nikerymath (Chondalwood) folk apparently forgot to ask, and they accidentally a whole Elven empire. And perhaps won't want sole responsibility for something so horrible, even if it didn't misfire. Because, well...
quote:
Theoretically, this ritual could allow an elf to be trans-
formed into a human or a dwarf (or other race), but no
High Mage has ever dared to attempt such, nor have any
volunteers been solicited to make such a sacrifice. In over
ten millennia, this ritual has been used only five times to
change a surface elf to a drow elf for the purpose of infil-
tration (twice) or banishment (thrice), so it is impossible
that any elf would condone the change to a N'Tel'Quess
except as the most extreme punishment.
- Cormanthyr


quote:
Elven High Magic is definitel unique but not in that it relies on elven magical status but because they sacrifice somobody most of the time.

That may be in part their sense of drama ("I lived for a long, long time, and not all my really cool deeds are even remembered. Hmm. Maybe going out with a bang for the good of People is a good way to go."), and in part inherent risks of this pastime, especially after Netheril.
Markustay Posted - 29 Mar 2017 : 00:36:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


The drow were not only denied sunlight - something intrinsic to elven nature (they derive sustenance from it) - but they had to resort to CANNIBALISM those first few years. Its right in 2e's Drow of the Underdark.



You make that sound like a bad thing. Have you ever HAD drow forearm baked in butter and mushrooms? Magnifique!

Well, after seeing some of the drow art, I might consider taking a nibble...
Irennan Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 23:29:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not sure if even Corellon understood the full repercussions his ban would have. You don't even see the evil gods doing things like that to their people (kill outright? YES. Eternal suffering until the end of time? Just NO.)

In fact, if the 'god War' had continued on for many years after the Sundering (as I suspect, like a 'cold war' with lots of smaller, 'localized' battles), I would imagine many ties were broken between the Seldarine and other 'good' deities after that.

You could just picture Oghma turning toward Corellon and saying, "Dude! WTF?!"



Yep. Even Eilistraee's relationship with him (and she used to admire him) is strained.
sleyvas Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 23:15:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


The drow were not only denied sunlight - something intrinsic to elven nature (they derive sustenance from it) - but they had to resort to CANNIBALISM those first few years. Its right in 2e's Drow of the Underdark.



You make that sound like a bad thing. Have you ever HAD drow forearm baked in butter and mushrooms? Magnifique!
Markustay Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 20:44:17
Things are getting hot in here...

The further back you go, the more ways you can 'spin' what happened in history, even when sticking strictly to the canon (canon bends a lot, and is more 'pliable' the further back you go). I recall some heated debates with Lord Karsus (now remembered quite fondly) about Elven lore and the Crown wars, back on the WotC boards. We would both read the exact same paragraphs from the exact same source-books and walk away with two totally different pictures of what went on there (the truth was probably somewhere in the middle, as always). We'd quote the same sentences insisting that it "prove OUR point". In the end, we had both come to realize that even when reading something 'set in stone', your predispositions kick-in and you read into it what you want, or rather, what your brain wants it to be.

Elven high magic was (canonically) said to be 'different'. I don't think the elves learned magic from the nether scrolls, but they may have learned techniques that enhanced their already awesome skills (in rules terms, things like metamagical feats). I was just rereading The North boxed set yesterday looking for a reference, and found some relevant stuff about the Creator races (probably the very first mention of them).
quote:
From The North, pg. 7 of the Guide to the Savage Frotier.
In a time when the North was always warm and the seas of the world were deeper, the lands of Toril were dominated by empires of inhuman peoples. In the elven oral tradition, these were the days when cruel lizard, amphibian, and avian peoples (known as the Iquar'Tel'Quessir, or creator races) tamed the dinosaurs, built towering cities of stone and glass on the shores of the warm seas, spanned the wilderness with shining roads, and fought wars of extermination - such was their hatred toward each other. These were the Days of Thunder.
Magic in those days was more raw and potent. These ancient peoples experimented endlessly with magic more powerful than today. Mages hurled devastating bolts of seemingly godlike power, leveling armies and mountains. Like gods, they played at creating life, wryly choosing to release their monstrous mistakes rather than destroy them. The wizards who created this new life considered their creations unnatural horrors, unlike anything that walked the land. Most died in the cruel jungles, yet many lived and - as thought awakened in them - they hid from their creators. When the end came
at last, it was they - not the surviving creators - who seized control of the suddenly colder realms.
And so it was that the first of the elves, the dragons, the goblin races, and an endless list of creatures of a new age took possession of their heritage. Their creators - the ancestors of the lizardmen, bullywugs, and aarakocra - declined into endless barbarism, never to rise again. Sages speculate about the "overnight" destruction of the creator races. There are wildly diverging theories, but all agree that a rapid climate change occurred, creating a world unsuitable to them. Many believe the change resulted from a cataclysm the races unleashed upon themselves. Proponents of this theory point to the Star Mounts in the High Forest, whose origins are most likely magical and otherworldly. The elves believe that around this time the greater and lesser powers manifested themselves, aiding the new races and confounding the survivors of the creator races. There was civilization in the North during this time period, yet little more than tantalizingly vague myths survive.
There is a large amount of GREAT information in that opening. The second paragraph is the one that pertains to magic, and some of what is being discussed here. I provided all three paragraphs for 'context'.

The Elven magical traditions came over with them from Faerie (and canonically, where the Fey Creator race - which is the one NOT mentioned above - LEFT ABEIR-TORIL to settle in the Feywild). At a later time, they sent the Elves (their 'children'?) back to Toril, and that had to do with the Dragons. Those were Green elves - of which Dark Elves are a sub-group. The High Elves (Sun & Moon) came later, when Tintageer fell. Once again, just providing background - we have a least one case of those high Elves casting a High Magic Ritual in Faerie BEFORE coming to Toril (in fact, it was that ritual that opened the gate they used to come over).

So Elven magic may have once been 'uber powerful' compared to the other humanish races, but it paled compared to the Creators, and later on, because of the Nether Scrolls (which were made by those Creators... but NOT theirs), humans and others were able to develop insanely powerful magics of their own - the epitome of which is 'Epic Magic', which is the equal to Elven High magic (not really the same thing story-wise, but mechanically so).

And BTW, I LOVE the idea that Ilighôn is a 'falling star' that caused the Jhaamdath cataclysm. The factoid that they are there because of an 'interesting dead-magic region' doesn't negate that concept. In fact, it plays right into it (it being a fragment left-over from 'the Godwar' and be drained of all its arcane energies). i think a group of druids would very much want to guard a fallen 'piece of a dead god' which could have a corrupting influence on everything around it.

You'll note in that last part that that is where I first got the idea that the Starmounts are a 'falling star' type object. later research determined impact-crater like terrain all around it... I could even tell you the precise angle it fell on.
So 'stuff falling from the sky' and causing bad stuff to happen isn't so strange for Ilighôn, or anywhere else in Faerûn. Its all part of the 'package deal' that is The Forgotten Realms.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 20:31:20
Elven High Magic was originally explicitly restricted to elves. Others could participate in rituals, particularly in ones that required multiple tiers of casters, but the primary caster had to be an elf and a High Mage.

And a lot of elven High Magic does not require sacrifice.

That's all canon.
Wrigley Posted - 28 Mar 2017 : 17:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I do not see Elven High Magic as somethig special they just perfected ritual magic to epic proportions (as did Imaskari and possibly others) so it is not flowed. They just missused it without enough concern about consequences it might bring. As nobody summoned a whole island before they did not anticipated those huge tidal weaves brought by it.

It by definition is elf-only.
It's just not the only form of "enhanced" magic in general - even on Toril there's at least dragonmagic, and beyond - psionic enchantments and what have you.
quote:
Just thought something - might it be that Ilighon was summoned similarily to create that flood of Jhaamdath??? It might explain the interest of Emerald Enclave in this small unimportant island...

No, RTFM it's explicitly said to be due to selective magic-dead area proclaimed a sort of holy place.
quote:
I do not see drow Descent as working of elves but as work of their gods so no high magic there for me.

It was a work of elves - which is why the first response was an assassination campaign by the Vyshaan, who figured out they may well be the next.
quote:
I personaly belive that elven High Magic came from reading Nether Scrolls elves had for a long time and they just paint it special and unique and they also fabricated those stories about it changing time (sundering).

According to all and any lore, it is unique. Simply because it relies on the elves as magical creatures.
Nether Scrolls were explicitly said to give tips on High Magic too - but only after being transformed by said High Magic. Which implies it's not a collection of knowledge, but an interactive tool, of course.
Also, there are elves in other worlds, doing things like Shattering of Borka.


Your DOGMA HAMMER again?
Elven High Magic elf-only...Elminster and others who took part in creating at least one Mythal? If you think of only divine magic than it is not elven only but given to them by their gods (as it could be given to anybody else).

Ilighon was found and settled by druids of Emerald Enclave well after the fall of Jhaamdath. Is there anything saying how exactly was the tidal weave summoned by elves of Chondalwood? Is there any explanation of this island fenomenon? I haven't found it so I posted a thought about possible explanation - a theory.

Descent was explicitly said to be work of the Seldarine who answered prayers of elven priests. There was a mention of great elven ritual but first it was a plea to the gods.

Elven High Magic is definitel unique but not in that it relies on elven magical status but because they sacrifice somobody most of the time. It depends on magic sure as any other kind of magic.
Also I have said it is only my interpretation so you are entirely free to ignore it.
Markustay Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 15:58:36
The descent was not only something done by the gods (the Seldarine), but the elves themselves (and even some of the gods, in hindsight) were appalled by it. It was so mentally devastating that the Crown Wars came to a halt, and the elves "withdrew to reflect".
Imagine something happening on earth today SO DEVASTATING that all wars come to an end for awhile. Think of the psychological impact - the level of atrocity - that that must have triggered on the psyche to override inborn hatreds.

The drow were not only denied sunlight - something intrinsic to elven nature (they derive sustenance from it) - but they had to resort to CANNIBALISM those first few years. Its right in 2e's Drow of the Underdark.

I'm not sure if even Corellon understood the full repercussions his ban would have. You don't even see the evil gods doing things like that to their people (kill outright? YES. Eternal suffering until the end of time? Just NO.)

In fact, if the 'god War' had continued on for many years after the Sundering (as I suspect, like a 'cold war' with lots of smaller, 'localized' battles), I would imagine many ties were broken between the Seldarine and other 'good' deities after that.

You could just picture Oghma turning toward Corellon and saying, "Dude! WTF?!"
TBeholder Posted - 27 Mar 2017 : 13:48:56
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The High Magic affecting the dragons.... well, considering the dragons will re-breed new dragons... and considering the other races will likely be the ones that the dragons feed upon.... hmmm, kills dragons and humans... WIN WIN.

Not likely. Back then, the elves didn't have a reason to consider humans a major threat, or for most part even worth notice. Now, easy-to-find masses of fast-breeding goblinoids - maybe, and the dragons do indeed feed on these when there are no dragons to protect them. But the Orcsgate was later, so presumably they only had to deal with fewer and somewhat less nasty ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I do not see Elven High Magic as somethig special they just perfected ritual magic to epic proportions (as did Imaskari and possibly others) so it is not flowed. They just missused it without enough concern about consequences it might bring. As nobody summoned a whole island before they did not anticipated those huge tidal weaves brought by it.

It by definition is elf-only.
It's just not the only form of "enhanced" magic in general - even on Toril there's at least dragonmagic, and beyond - psionic enchantments and what have you.
quote:
Just thought something - might it be that Ilighon was summoned similarily to create that flood of Jhaamdath??? It might explain the interest of Emerald Enclave in this small unimportant island...

No, RTFM it's explicitly said to be due to selective magic-dead area proclaimed a sort of holy place.
quote:
I do not see drow Descent as working of elves but as work of their gods so no high magic there for me.

It was a work of elves - which is why the first response was an assassination campaign by the Vyshaan, who figured out they may well be the next.
quote:
I personaly belive that elven High Magic came from reading Nether Scrolls elves had for a long time and they just paint it special and unique and they also fabricated those stories about it changing time (sundering).

According to all and any lore, it is unique. Simply because it relies on the elves as magical creatures.
Nether Scrolls were explicitly said to give tips on High Magic too - but only after being transformed by said High Magic. Which implies it's not a collection of knowledge, but an interactive tool, of course.
Also, there are elves in other worlds, doing things like Shattering of Borka.
Wrigley Posted - 26 Mar 2017 : 11:02:10
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I used to think the same way until last month when i came across a quote from Ed saying that the elves are part of the weave (and so are dragons).

I dont think high magic os exckusive to elves but to access it you have to become more attuned to the weave in some way. Then you can work much more oowerful rituals than you otherwise could



For me that smells too much of Tolkien's elves and I do not like to mix realms. In Faerun I do not see a reason for elves to be better than any other race. Their longevity is already enough for me (and I have toned down even that for historical reasons).
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 Mar 2017 : 10:33:47
I used to think the same way until last month when i came across a quote from Ed saying that the elves are part of the weave (and so are dragons).

I dont think high magic os exckusive to elves but to access it you have to become more attuned to the weave in some way. Then you can work much more oowerful rituals than you otherwise could
Wrigley Posted - 25 Mar 2017 : 07:54:17
I do not see Elven High Magic as somethig special they just perfected ritual magic to epic proportions (as did Imaskari and possibly others) so it is not flowed. They just missused it without enough concern about consequences it might bring. As nobody summoned a whole island before they did not anticipated those huge tidal weaves brought by it.

Just thought something - might it be that Ilighon was summoned similarily to create that flood of Jhaamdath??? It might explain the interest of Emerald Enclave in this small unimportant island...

I do not see drow Descent as working of elves but as work of their gods so no high magic there for me.
Dracorage might have been the strongest effect that they could brought up on that scale against their dragon overmasters because I am quite sure that they would have killed them at that time if able to.

Dark Disaster over High Moor seems to me more like Vyshaans released something beyond their control - possibly sarrukh battle magic they found.

I personaly belive that elven High Magic came from reading Nether Scrolls elves had for a long time and they just paint it special and unique and they also fabricated those stories about it changing time (sundering).
sfdragon Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 22:17:03
yeah.. the vyshaan dogs......


not elf. but devil corrupted elves.

kill on sight. show no mercy.... well they didnt show any...


also they did not get altered by elven high magic. just an execution order known as Secret Order 66...... well its not much a secret though....
Brimstone Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 21:51:44
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Right.

And 'The Chronomancer' was really a disguised (as human Netherese) Elven High Mage called 'Immortus'.

And thus, all is right in the multiverse.

Well... almost... you see Toril's 'Kang' is actually a descendant of Manshoon... Oh, forget it!


The Imaskari did import a bunch of slaves from Earth. So Kang was influencing the High Imaskari.
Markustay Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 21:11:22
Right.

And 'The Chronomancer' was really a disguised (as human Netherese) Elven High Mage called 'Immortus'.

And thus, all is right in the multiverse.

Well... almost... you see Toril's 'Kang' is actually a descendant of Manshoon... Oh, forget it!
Brimstone Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 18:23:14
So Kang the Conqueror is really an Elven High Mage?
Markustay Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 17:23:06
@Ayrk - not really seeing Elves as 'superior' at anything, except perhaps believing in their own superiority (something all racist groups do).

They are a somewhat failed-offshoot of a failed creator Race (the Fey). I say 'somewhat failed' because it seems to be their 'thing (trope) to be 'in decline' on most worlds (sometimes referred to as 'the dwindling' when talking about actual fey). The Fey, the Sarrukh, the Batraachi, the Aearee - where are they now? Humans are the ONLY Creator race that have not only survived in huge numbers, but they pretty much run the entire Prime Material Plane.

I do like what you said about 'magical radiation', and I factor that in as well; for example, I feel that the 'Veil Between the Worlds' is thinner in the Taan (endless wastes) region, first because they fey used to be based in that region, and crossed between worlds all the time, and later the Imaskari were all over that region, doing the same (and likely based much of their magics on the earlier fey). The 'Veil' has been greatly weakened in that region, which makes it easier to move between planes/worlds, but also has the negative effect of making it easier for other thins to get in. So, much like what you proposed, all that magic being used heavily in one specific are has 'damaged' that part of the Weave. Ed has portrayed The weave as a physical place that you can 'be in', so my concept of 'the Veil' (borrowed form other fiction) is probably just how Ed sees The Weave. Its like a combination 'force field' and energy source (and now that I've said that, I'm thinking things like mythals, spell webs, mantles, and mythalar are all like mini-versions of a Weave). The problem is, these things are like 'apps' running on the GUI (The Weave), and the more you pile-on to it, the greater your chances of having the whole thing 'crash' (quite literally and spectacularly, in the case of the Netherese). The Weave itself - being very much like a GUI - is running 'on top of' the base source ode of the univese, and thats where all that 'old magic', 'heavy Magic', 'Primal/Eldritch Magic', etc, etc comes in. The Weave fails, and you just get the 'Cerulean Screen of Death', but if the underlying code (physics) ever got damaged, that would be the end of our universe as we know it.

Khelben: "The Weave seems to be running a bit slow today... Elminster must be downloading Drow porn off the demonweb again."

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

At first i wasnt keen on markustays idea about the reach of the magic extending back and forth in time but its appealing to me more now.
Its not really 'time magic' - I'm not big on that either. Its more of a 'probability' alterer - maybe even diverting the true timeline down a divergent path (an alternate reality), or perhaps even causing the divergence, which could even be causing a damaging 'dilution effect' on the multiverse (creating another 'alternate quantum reality' each time High Magic is used).
sleyvas Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 11:46:35
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by El Oso Gigante
I suppose for every high magic ritual gone wrong there are a thousand humans that summon demons and get eaten by them, or worse.



Demons eating humans is quite normal, actually. As long as they don't mate with each other, it's all good.

Feed demon, good. Have sex, bad.



"Racist!!!!" shouts the cambion from offstage.
sleyvas Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 11:44:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

how many essentially useless hyper-specific magical items (like, say, a self-repairing +2 leather cuirass made for a CG adolescent-sized female centaur ranger who worships Sune and is born into a now-extinct lycanthropic bloodline).


Dude, I know she cheated on you with that centaur with the Mohawk... and that Zebrataur... and that hybsil... and that wemic... and that Dracon.... and that Rhinaur... and that Scorpionman..... but you can at least call her by her name, Diandra. And will you finally let go on how much that "tear away" leather bodice you made for her cost? We both know it was just so you could get a good look at her cleavage. I know, it sucks that she kept using it whenever she became a stripper in Bezantur. Look, why don't I take you out for a drink so you can forget her. I hear that "Hooves in Heat" down in that new Tharch of Peleveran in the Shaar has a new centaur, they say her name is Bambi, who can really put on a show. [:P}
Gary Dallison Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 11:43:23
Or they had forgotten about the aquatic elves. Im pretty sure the aquatic elves in seros were as a result of a transformation ritual a long long time ago (a ritual that was repeated again at least once during the time of cormanthyr).

After only a century we can lose track of a lot of history so it is feasible that after a few millennia the elves simply no longer knew there were any elves beneath the waters
sleyvas Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 11:25:56
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

as for the descent.. the ilthiiri were already corrupt at that point.

innocent along with the guilty..... though like jhaamdath ; it would be hard to tell the difference .. propaganda and all that..

Edit: remember it is evil enough when good men do nothing



But Jhaamdath is one instance of the elves just being flat out stupid. They had cousins below the waters that they were going to churn to high heavens, and they didn't even think about them.

Mod edit: Slight edit to content. Check your PM.
TBeholder Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 11:10:48
Or the problem with High Magic is exactly the same as with most things the Elves do.
They tend toward moronic level of collective (reinforced) narcissism. Which puts them into the situation where their choice of approach usually boils down to one of the options we have repeatedly seen in canon:
A) Wishful thinking and terminal overconfidence.
B) Cowardice, incompetence and/or jealousy presented as wisdom.
C) Apostasy, i.e. an attempt to acquire more option by jumping the ship of fools.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

as for the descent.. the ilthiiri were already corrupt at that point.

And the Vyshaan?..
quote:
innocent along with the guilty..... though like jhaamdath ; it would be hard to tell the difference .. propaganda and all that..

Or, elves being elves.
Gary Dallison Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 09:49:30
At first i wasnt keen on markustays idea about the reach of the magic extending back and forth in time but its appealing to me more now.

If faerie is a transitive mirror plane between the material and the positive energy plane then when the elves ripped a chunk of land off faerun and flung it across the sea, we know this did extend back and forth in time (the elves wanted this new homeland to last forever).

This caused a huge tidal wave and collapsed a lot of land off faeruns west coast (there are elven ruins like ascarle). Since it happened way back in the past that means the tidal wave in faerun had a mirror event in faerie that caused the destruction of the elven home in faerie.

I dont think all the high magics reach back and forth in time. I think it was just this single request "for a safe homeland for the elves isolated from all other lands and to last for all time" or something like that. It was the for all time that screwed them
moonbeast Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 09:37:42
quote:
Originally posted by El Oso Gigante
I suppose for every high magic ritual gone wrong there are a thousand humans that summon demons and get eaten by them, or worse.



Demons eating humans is quite normal, actually. As long as they don't mate with each other, it's all good.

Feed demon, good. Have sex, bad.
Ayrik Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 02:15:48
I don't recall ever seeing a "Law of Equivalency or Exchange" in any Realmslore or in any D&D rulebooks. "Conservation of Magic" hardly seems to apply in the Realms in any event, lol - it's an abundant and seemingly "infinite" resource, magic and the Weave have been described in (old) FR canon as being like living, growing, self-replenishing things.

Indeed, elven magic and elven High Magic have created magical items and artifacts which actually grow in power as time passes. Moonblades are a famous example. Mythals might be another - although very few remain fully functional and intact after passing ages, though this has (so far) always been the result of interference or damage from external causes, not necessarily any "flaw" in mythal design and implementation.

I maintain the position that magical pollution in the Realms is somewhat analogous to radioactive waste in our world - it's toxic, dangerous, and basically takes "forever" to break down into harmless, inert components. Imagine how many cursed items must have been created across the Realms over the centuries, how many permanent spell zones/effects/miscasts/malfunctions, how many essentially useless hyper-specific magical items (like, say, a self-repairing +2 leather cuirass made for a CG adolescent-sized female centaur ranger who worships Sune and is born into a now-extinct lycanthropic bloodline). All of this stuff just "hangs around" for centuries or millennia or longer, it's non-biodegradable, it displaces (and even endangers) the (super)natural order of things in the environment.

Is "Elven High Magic Flawed or Troped?" - yes and yes. Elves are simply "better" than humans, more beautiful and graceful and smarter and faster and just superior at everything they do (because they live forever and have centuries to perfect even the most petty and banal things as exotic art forms). So of course elven High Magic is "better" than non-elven "normal" magic. And of course it's troped, elven superiority has always been given a nod in D&D (largely inspired by Tolkein) and has always been entrenched in the Realms setting - especially circa 3E onwards when all things elven (or dark elven) or fey became spectacularly popular.
El Oso Gigante Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 01:07:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

when they created Evermeet, they inadvertently destroyed Tintageer - they actually created the very situation which caused them to flee Faerie in the first place.




Well, thanks for blowing my mind

Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000