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sleyvas Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 15:39:07
In many threads over time, we've discussed the nature of Primordials versus Gods. Quite frankly, I'm starting to think that the main difference between the two is Primordials were earthly bound and Gods were forming the outer planes (which didn't necessarily exist yet). There probably were also "great spirits" which were probably something in the middle.

This makes me think... we're told that Abeir has no divine magic or gods. But what if that's only where the dragons killed their Primordial masters? There could be whole continents that the rest of Abeir doesn't know about where... for instance... the Mulhorandi gods (Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, etc...) exist as manifestations... or maybe the Maztican gods exist as Manifestations... or maybe the Norse gods exist as manifestations (and the Northmen that appeared in Toril were from a previous Abeir/Toril crossover)

Maybe in fact, Ao (and the other overgods) split the worlds to protect some of the gods from the dragons. The steelsky of Abeir was a gift of Arambar, which sounds like so many stories where a god dies and his "body" is used to form the sky. There is still a sun and moon, but it may be a miniature sun like the one made in the heartlands just prior to the spellplague.

Finally, just because my mind is spinning in concepts right now... Which deities do you think MIGHT actually be some kind of primordial entity that later expanded its power to get an outer planar domain. Might they actually appear to be some kind of mythological beast / elemental being? For instance,

Lathander ..... from all his portfolios, etc... could be the Phoenix

Talos / Bhaelros ... I get the idea that Talos could definitely be some kind of "elemental" being. I also get the idea that Bhaelros may have been a powerful genie.

Bhalla of Rashemi Pantheon... they say Chauntea, but I picture the cow Audumbla

There is a lot more that fall into this, and I may come back with more later, but have to run rightnow.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
sleyvas Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 14:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, since 'death' only came into the world after the Dawn war/Godwar/War of Light & Darkness. I don't see how there could have been ANY concept of an 'afterlife' or 'souls'. At that point, a being was just one thing - it was the 'end all, be all' of its existence. There was no 'before' or 'after' - in fact, there probably wasn't even time near the beginning for any of these things to have meaning.

So taking what Sleyvas just suggested, and some other stuff I've thrown around - before the World was Sundered, and the Prime Material Plane created from it, the concept of 'physicality' was even an 'iffy' thing. A being's shape was probably much more 'fluid' (the more powerful the being, the greater the leeway it would have in this regard). Thus, everything was a 'Spirit' (or Kami, as I mentioned earlier, which means the same thing). So there were just these 'spiritual beings' wandering around the Midgard*, and while most of the 'powers' were working on building the universe itself, some specific powers were working on races to populate it all (so that First World may have been like the Well World, in some parts). The concept of the trinity - Body, Mind, & Soul (Material, Astral, and Ethereal) - didn't exist, because things were fragmented the way they are now. Everything existed on a single plane. Now beings have to exist on multiple planes at once. 'Spirits' are manufactured from the planestuff itself (as it is with fiends, etc) - this is why after a time they can reform. They have no actual basis in 'the real' (or what we know of as 'reality' now). Souls are something else entirely - I equate 'spirit' with the mind in my model (the thing that gets stored in the astral after a person dies). However, there still would be no need for any type of afterlife - whether you use any of my theories (or any other fan theories), it doesn't matter - I am just not seeing there being any type of afterlife in the 'before time' period. And dating the Raven Queen to back then is just lunacy (she took Nerull's place, and Nerull has always been around in GH, so that makes no sense - she HAS TO BE a fairly recent edition to the cosmology.

NOW, if we want to say she was created in the confusion of the Spellplague (Great Cataclysm, 'Grand Conjunction', whatever, etc), and at that time she usurped Nerull's place, she may have used that - 'the reorder of the planes/reality itself' in order to make people believe she had always been around. A retcon, that makes the retcon itself in-game canon. So she would only be around a century or so, and anyone older than that, when asked, would get a far-away look in their eyes and be like, "The Raven Queen? I recall hearing stories about her as a child... I don't quite recollect the stories themselves, though... odd, that." In fact, since reality itself became unhinged (the Great wheel got re-shuffled, and pieces of various worlds got swapped back-and-forth, etc.) and some of that may have been Ravenloft style, with folks not even realizing stuff changed, we can use that to 'fudge' any of the inconsistencies we want. Things don't have to really have 'One Truth' - multiple truths can work when time itself gets affected (an event like the Spellplague could have created a nigh-infinite number of alternate probabilities). Another way of looking at it is how it worked in the movie Dark City, where every night the city changes, and the peoples lives are altered, and no-one ever realizes it. 'Truth' itself becomes an illusion, in that situation.

And I really dislike primordials having followers in the same way as deities - its just makes them different names for the same thing, at that point. Its boring. Its one of the very few things I was on board with with 4e right from the beginning - making the elemental lords primordials, and keeping them 'different' than normal gods. I think the only reason why they back-peddled from that is because they were forced to back-peddle away from just about everything 4e did, whether it was good or not (because at the end of the day, who gets to decide which was which?) I think elemental lords (and other, non-deity 'gods') should just have cults, plain and simple. give them normal priest stuff up to level three (keeping to the old SJ lore about levels 1-3 being self-generated, or provided by the universe itself, through 'faith'). then from level 4 on, they could have a specialized class of their own (like 3e's PrC's). give them more mage-like magic after that (like full access to one of the elemental schools). WE could just spin it that "people thought elemental powers were worshiped the same way", because they still got spells, and could even be more powerful than true priests (of a deity). Too bad 'Warlock' is spoken for - maybe bring back 'Witchdoctor'? Thats the class humanoids used for divine casters.




Look at the Priest thread I just started, where someone from DMs Guild has "beings" that have to be worshipped via you having an idol that's tied to them somehow. I would think this kind of magic to be perfect for primordials. I also don't have a problem with gods ALSO using this (maybe their incorporeal nature makes them more "flexible" in how they obtain worship).

I also would not have a problem with Primordials that have warlocks (or binders in the 3.5 era).
Markustay Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 20:49:47
The dark of it is that its really all just one place - thats why all these 'planes' look like one another. They are all just 'layers' of the same thing.

As 3-dimensional beings, we mortals only know how to move about in the 3-dimensions (although we are aware of the 4th - time - we haven't yet figured out how to control our movement through it). These other 'planes' (mostly the ones we think of as 'transitive planes') are just other layers - directions we haven't become aware of, nor know how to move through... but 'gods' (spirits) can.

To my way of thinking, 'the Fugue' (realm of death) is just two layers away, and by moving toward it, we must pass through the 'border ethereal' (which I think of as the 'cosmic crossroads' - once in that dimension, you CAN move in any planer direction), through a piece of The Shadowfell ('The Veil'), and then into the Fugue (afterlife). To our mortal eyes, we would see 'things' in each realm fade-in and fade-out, becoming less distinct as we 'moved forward' through the planer barriers. Stuff in the planes next to others would appear 'ghostly'.

Also, spirits that feel they have 'unfinished business' (or just afraid of the afterlife they've earned) will back-peddle out of the Fugue and into the Shadowfell, and from there they can affect the physical world (those would be all types of incorporeal undead).
Wrigley Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 11:19:48
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Shadowrun has an interesting take on the Etheric plane as well, although it commonly refers to it as the "Astral".



Interesting thought that those settings are actualy connectable :-) and also it means that metaplanes are inner planes (or demiplanes) in FR :-)

As for ethereal and shadow planes I view them as "filters" through which positive and negative energy flows to material plane and with it are both Weaves connected to those planes - Weave IS in ethereal and Shadow Weave IS in shadow plane. Kind of like places where entropy and creation come to this world and where their tools are...
Ayrik Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 02:43:55
Shadowrun has an interesting take on the Etheric plane as well, although it commonly refers to it as the "Astral".
Markustay Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 02:13:33
Footnote for above placed here - sorry

*Midgard: Michaal Moorcock's novels had a very interesting take on this - The Middle Marches. It was almost like D&D's 'Border Ethereal', and similar to how we sometimes use the feywild and Shadowfell (imperfect reflections of our world).

I've stolen that, and use it as my near Ethereal, and from that place, you can either enter the 'deep ethereal', The Feywild, or the Shadowfell (think of it as going straight, up, or down, but in a metaphysical kind of way). The Shadowfell has a 'border area' itself (basically a mix of the Middlemarches and Shadow), and from there you can 'deeper into the shadows', or cross into the realm of death (the upper or lower planes). This region could also be coterminus with the border ethereal. Now that I'm thinking about it, I may say that 'realm of death' is really the Fugue, which is 'deaths weigh-station'. So you can 'go ethereal', then cross into the 'veil of shadow', and then back out of that into the Fugue, and from there maybe travel to any of the outer planes (because The Fugue needs to be connected to ALL the afterlifes). Not an easy trip, but 'rescuing someone from hell' is never supposed to be easy.
Markustay Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 02:00:24
Well, since 'death' only came into the world after the Dawn war/Godwar/War of Light & Darkness. I don't see how there could have been ANY concept of an 'afterlife' or 'souls'. At that point, a being was just one thing - it was the 'end all, be all' of its existence. There was no 'before' or 'after' - in fact, there probably wasn't even time near the beginning for any of these things to have meaning.

So taking what Sleyvas just suggested, and some other stuff I've thrown around - before the World was Sundered, and the Prime Material Plane created from it, the concept of 'physicality' was even an 'iffy' thing. A being's shape was probably much more 'fluid' (the more powerful the being, the greater the leeway it would have in this regard). Thus, everything was a 'Spirit' (or Kami, as I mentioned earlier, which means the same thing). So there were just these 'spiritual beings' wandering around the Midgard*, and while most of the 'powers' were working on building the universe itself, some specific powers were working on races to populate it all (so that First World may have been like the Well World, in some parts). The concept of the trinity - Body, Mind, & Soul (Material, Astral, and Ethereal) - didn't exist, because things were fragmented the way they are now. Everything existed on a single plane. Now beings have to exist on multiple planes at once. 'Spirits' are manufactured from the planestuff itself (as it is with fiends, etc) - this is why after a time they can reform. They have no actual basis in 'the real' (or what we know of as 'reality' now). Souls are something else entirely - I equate 'spirit' with the mind in my model (the thing that gets stored in the astral after a person dies). However, there still would be no need for any type of afterlife - whether you use any of my theories (or any other fan theories), it doesn't matter - I am just not seeing there being any type of afterlife in the 'before time' period. And dating the Raven Queen to back then is just lunacy (she took Nerull's place, and Nerull has always been around in GH, so that makes no sense - she HAS TO BE a fairly recent edition to the cosmology.

NOW, if we want to say she was created in the confusion of the Spellplague (Great Cataclysm, 'Grand Conjunction', whatever, etc), and at that time she usurped Nerull's place, she may have used that - 'the reorder of the planes/reality itself' in order to make people believe she had always been around. A retcon, that makes the retcon itself in-game canon. So she would only be around a century or so, and anyone older than that, when asked, would get a far-away look in their eyes and be like, "The Raven Queen? I recall hearing stories about her as a child... I don't quite recollect the stories themselves, though... odd, that." In fact, since reality itself became unhinged (the Great wheel got re-shuffled, and pieces of various worlds got swapped back-and-forth, etc.) and some of that may have been Ravenloft style, with folks not even realizing stuff changed, we can use that to 'fudge' any of the inconsistencies we want. Things don't have to really have 'One Truth' - multiple truths can work when time itself gets affected (an event like the Spellplague could have created a nigh-infinite number of alternate probabilities). Another way of looking at it is how it worked in the movie Dark City, where every night the city changes, and the peoples lives are altered, and no-one ever realizes it. 'Truth' itself becomes an illusion, in that situation.

And I really dislike primordials having followers in the same way as deities - its just makes them different names for the same thing, at that point. Its boring. Its one of the very few things I was on board with with 4e right from the beginning - making the elemental lords primordials, and keeping them 'different' than normal gods. I think the only reason why they back-peddled from that is because they were forced to back-peddle away from just about everything 4e did, whether it was good or not (because at the end of the day, who gets to decide which was which?) I think elemental lords (and other, non-deity 'gods') should just have cults, plain and simple. give them normal priest stuff up to level three (keeping to the old SJ lore about levels 1-3 being self-generated, or provided by the universe itself, through 'faith'). then from level 4 on, they could have a specialized class of their own (like 3e's PrC's). give them more mage-like magic after that (like full access to one of the elemental schools). WE could just spin it that "people thought elemental powers were worshiped the same way", because they still got spells, and could even be more powerful than true priests (of a deity). Too bad 'Warlock' is spoken for - maybe bring back 'Witchdoctor'? Thats the class humanoids used for divine casters.
sleyvas Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 22:51:06
So, maybe an idea would be that prior to the creation of "death" and the outer planes, beings had spirits. When they "passed" their spirit was churned through the elemental chaos and "reformed". Basically, reincarnation. Then beings started getting souls, which travelled to the outer planes. Then the outer planes at some point even started using this soul energy to create their own beings.

Not sure if I like it, but throwing it out for discussion.
KanzenAU Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 09:02:56
To further the discussion, here's a few more choice quotes, this time from 4e's Manual of the Planes (p70-71).
quote:
The primordials (hundreds or perhaps thousands in number) are ancient forces of creation that were first to emerge from the Elemental Chaos. In a frenzy of creation, they built the world from the Elemental Chaos’s churning matter and energy. They are primal aspects of nature, driven to create and re-create in an endless cycle of building and destruction. If the primordials had been left to their desires, the world would have remained a place of elemental fury and spectacular destruction.

quote:
The primordials are raw, untamed chaos in elemental form, almost indistinguishable from the plane that birthed them. They possess power and intellect to rival or exceed the deities, but they are far from subtle. They don’t represent ideals or concepts — they embody the natural forces of creation and annihilation. They exist solely to act out that cycle, using the churning tempest of the Elemental Chaos as paint and canvas.

quote:
Though the primordials cling to only a tiny fraction of the power they held before their war with the deities, they still have servants and worshipers[/b] — elementals and mortals who view them as patrons, guides, or potential allies against the gods and their servants.

Plus, an example of one of the primordials (Istishia) in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Like all the elemental lords, Istishia is relatively unfeeling toward his followers on Abeir-Toril. His reactions are utterly unpredictable and thus, in an odd way, predictable in their unpredictability. The reasoning behind Istishia's actions is incomprehensible to most of Faerun's inhabitants, including his worshipers. The alien and uncaring stance of Istishia and the other elemental lords has led to the mistaken impression in the Realms that they are only lesser powers and their followers merely oddball cultists. During the Time of Troubles, Istishia was not spotted in the Realms.

There are similar entries for the other elemental lords.

I guess the bottom line out of this information isn't necessarily new, but perhaps worth repeating: the primordials have worshippers, and can even grant spells, but they don't particularly care about the affairs of mortals. If I had to guess, I would guess that the primordials only interact with mortals to further their agenda in the universe, rather than derive power from their worship like deities do.
We can also see again that the primordials who lost the war are diminished in power - perhaps even losing much of that stated intelligence.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This ties into other things I've said recently - before The Sundering there was NO death, which means all the Creator Races were immortal.

I don't think there's a problem with this in FR-only cosmologies, but we know that there were souls around before the Dawn War if you're incorporating core-4e into your wider view. They drifted off into a realm beyond at first (through gateways such as Death's Reach), until some primordials blocked it up and started stealing the power of the souls. Nerull eventually comes along (or possibly Aurom before him) and takes the souls' power for himself. Then the Raven Queen usurps his role, but releases the souls. We know that the Raven Queen was around in the Dawn War, before the creator races were even born.

But, only a problem if your cosmology uses the 4e stuff. Or, maybe your cosmology still uses the 4e stuff, but the creator races are an exception to this because they were specifically created without souls for some reason. Or, maybe the 4e stuff only applies to 4e's First World.

Is the creator races being soulless your idea, or does it come from the lore?
Markustay Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 07:47:55
<split for brevity>

I think thats a really cool, flavorful (alternative) name for the creator races - "The Souless". Some probably stuck together after the cataclysm (like the Sarrukh) and formed small, tight-knit groups, whereas others may have each gone their own separate ways, for the most part (the Batrachi), or left en mass for 'greener pastures' (the Fey), or just up and disappeared (the Aearee), or decided to hunt down all others of their kind (Mankind - the 'Immortals') - "There can be only one" (because, ya know, humans is crazy).

One of my favorite series of 3rd party products for RPGs has always been the Catalyst Series of Citybooks by Flying Buffalo - one of them had a 'first man' in it. I've always felt there were a few of them sprinkled around amongst the myriad D&D worlds (maybe like the Amberites of the Chronicles of Amber, which I know Ed was fond of, and used for inspiration). There would probably only be one any world, if any, and no more than maybe 2-3 (BECAUSE they tend to hunt each other). Maybe some would even consider themselves the 'secret lords' of their respective worlds (a 'Vandal Savage' type character from DC comics).

Also, I think the 'purer' the bloodline, the more of that immortality would have rubbed off. In other words, the first generation of 'mortals' may have lived 1000+ years. This is why Elves are so long-lived, and other demi-humans are longer lived than humans - the greater the impurities that have crept in, the shorter the lifespan (Drow, for example,have been breeding with other things even before they went into the Underdark). Humans breed like cockroaches - almost as bad as goblinkind. Each successive generation would lose some of its lifespan, but if a human today would breed with one of these 'Immortals', you would have a VERY long-lived person as a result. This would explain the 'High Men' in the Middle Earth setting - stronger, faster, smarter, etc, and longer-lived than normal men. It also works well with some of the ages given in the Old Testament for humans (like Methuselah). Their bloodline has remained 'purer' to the original. Of course, those 'originals' are also souless...

Vampires trade their souls to become immortal, but they are not true immortals, and require blood to maintain themselves. I theorize that the Plane of Mirrors is actually the 'soul world' (The Ethereal, actually), so when you don't have a soul, you don't have a reflection (so I guess that means immortals, just like vampires, don't have reflections). And your shadow is really your spirit (mind), from the astral, but thats another story (part of my Body, Mind, & Soul theories).

Hmmmm... that means all creator Races would have no reflections... weird, but kinda cool. Imagine a primordial standing over a large body of water, and people realize everything but it is reflected in the water - its gives them a bit of a 'Lovecraftian' feel, no? It works for me; 'Elder Evils' and 'Eldritch Horrors' - all the same thing to me. Things so alien even mirrors deny their existence.
Markustay Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 07:45:27
Okay, here's a new theory, connected to my old theory, with some really old speculation of mine sprinkled in...

OD&D (and maybe 1e - I forget now, its been so long) had it where only humans had souls. I used to go with this, but I moved away from it over the years..

What if by 'human' they really just meant 'mortal'? This ties into other things I've said recently - before The Sundering there was NO death, which means all the Creator Races were immortal. I have it where birth came hand-in-hand with death (the Creatori had no need to procreate, because they were simply created 'whole cloth' from the stuff of that First World). So no birth, and no death.. and no 'death of the First World', so also no 'soul stuff {Elan} floating around loose).

Post Sundering we have death, but we also have birth, and with it something new - mortals, born with souls. I've long held that it requires a mortal soul to become a deity (it has something to do with the fact that they are all connected - all really part of something greater). I actually don't even need my 'Unimind' theory anymore - everything is linked by this 'soul stuff' that is being collected (so there is a 'group consciousness' possessed by the souls-stuff itself, which is what allows the two-way conduit that deity-hood requires).

Bazim Gorag has no soul - technically, every being existing before The Sundering is a primordial, although we usually only apply the term to the 'greater' variety. All outsiders around then, all Creatori (Creator Races) - everything (even 'legendary beasts'). All 'primal', and therefor, all varieties of primordial. That appellation is not normally applied to the low-level proto-mortals that existed then, because they weren't even powerful enough to be recognized individually by 'the powers that be'. Just like no-one ever names individual elementals. Even in our games, we don't bother to name individual monsters, like goblins. They're just 'grunts'. So what if one of them became 'a special' - made a name for itself? Like Bazim-Gorag? He could have become powerful enough to be noticed, and thus got 'classified' as a primordial. i don't think its actually a template (like what a deity has) - its just a 'private club' of sorts. Like being an 'archmage' - its just what you get called when you start to become someone important; it has no real relative 'power level' attached.

So you got a couple of 'tiers' of Godhood way at the top, like Supernals, Eternals, and Sidereals are all 'Ordials' and those 'no-name grunts' are just Outsiders (Kami), but some of the more powerful ones ('bosses' in charge of large numbers of others) may get classified as 'Ordials' ("Those that bring Order"), but would be considered Prime Ordials (the lowest rank). Thus, the only thing we find weird is that this process happened to a member of a creator race, but the truth is, it could have happened to any of the 'lesser' beings existing pre-Sundering. Its pretty-much just a job description, not a 'race' (which is how I was always thinking of it before, but I normally only applied that logic to deities).

So, if you obtain that level of power but have no soul you become a primordial, but if you have/had a soul (or manage to acquire one through absorption), you can become a deity. <split>
KanzenAU Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 02:43:02
Something else to consider re: Bazim-Gorag found on p5 of the Grand History of the Realms:
Bazim-Gorag was one of the batrachi who fled to Limbo after the batrachi released the primordials, inducing massive climate change. There he was one of the batrachi that founded the Supreme Throne, and there they were transformed by Ramenos to "serve his divine purpose". He goes on to note that "the agenda of your Lord Kossuth is not so different from my own" in what sounds like an entreaty to someone to free him so that he may scatter armies and sew chaos.

Could it be Ramenos's alterations that allowed him to "ascend" to become a primordial? This would mean he was such during the 3e era, but I checked his stats in Champions of Ruin and he does have 25 hit dice... so perhaps Ramenos made him into a lesser primordial somehow?
KanzenAU Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 23:08:29
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I think that the sage who called Bazim-Gorag an "ascended primordial" was simply incorrect. Primordial'ness should not be something you can ascend to. I can buy someone becoming an elemental quasi-power. I can buy a new primordial being formed even today. I'm of the idea that primordials should be "formed" as a primordial from the moment of their creation. I guess after this thread has progressed, I'm seeing we simply need to have some new terms to describe things, and primordial was getting a bit overused.

For better or worse, that "ascended batrachi" wasn't presented as a sage's view of myth and legend, it was just stated as fact. Of course, it can easily be argued that ALL lorebooks should be taken as from a sage's viewpoint. So YMMV. However, I don't think we can easily dismiss the idea of a mortal ascending to become a "primordial".

And it fits so well with my primordials = gods of the Elemental Chaos theory...
quote:
On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.

I think this "combining" idea is the best explanation for those who aren't a fan of the idea of a mortal batrachi ascending to become a primordial.

You could also potentially argue that Bazim-Gorag has become what mortals call a primordial, but they're mistaken. He's primordial-like, in that he's "a being of manifest entropy", but he doesn't fit the original template.

I think we're in another one of these situations where there's not too much more written in the lore to go on, here, unless I'm mistaken. It might just have to be homebrew o'clock.

EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe the Batrachi CAN be a primordial - I keep forgetting, everything that came into being in that First World (2nd universe? We actually have no way of knowing what # universe we are on) was created by something else. 'Mortality' did not exist until after the Godwar and The Sundering, which mean 'birth' came into being at the same time as 'death'.

The only problem with all that is Sarrukh liches... there shouldn't be any. They should be immortal, by default. And YES, that means there should be a handful of 'First Men' running around as well, but they're probably busy chopping each other's heads off, the crazy bastiches.

Where are these concepts of the First World and "Mortality not existing until after the Sundering" from? Is it FR, core, or homebrew?

If I'm following you correctly... it's an interesting thought that the "creator races" were closer templates to the gods than the mortals of today, being able to create other races - like the batrachi creating the doppelgangers if I'm remembering correctly. So perhaps the creator races find it easier to ascend to the power of a deity or a primordial...
Cyrinishad Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 20:49:41
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.



I've been kicking this idea around in my head for a long time now, but it finally clicked... I think we're onto something here that can coherently tie together the cosmology and reveal the significance of the batrachi in the multiverse...

I think the batrachi are symbiotic organisms similar to the Goa'Uld from Stargate... If this kind of a symbiotic organism were able to find ways to possess entities on the scale of Primordials, this explains a ton... And it makes the concept of multi-spheric deities much more coherent as well.

The ancient greek poet Homer wrote a parody of the Illiad called the "Batrachomyomachia", which is about a war between Frogs & Mice... hence the association of the word Batrachi with Frogs. However, after reading the plot I am thinking that the connection to Frogs is an accidental association... and that the Batrachi species is actually the Water Snake in the story that frightened the Frogs (especially because the Mice never saw the Water Snake, and the symbiotic creatures from Stargate could easily be described as Water Snakes)...

Additionally, I suspect the name "batrachi" is related to their use of crystal structures for their cities. This occured to me when I was reading about the ruins of Petra... "Petra" is the greek word for "Rock", and in arabic it is pronounced "Al-Batra". This makes me think "Batra"="Rock/Crystal" and "Chi"="Soul/Energy"...


...or maybe the howling winds of Pandemonium are finally getting to me.
Markustay Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 19:01:36
As for 'tiers', this is what I have

Normal person (NPC), heroic, Paragon, Epic = 'Mortal'
celestial, powerful fiend, demigod, saint, Chosen = 'Exarch'
lesser, intermediate, greater god = 'deity'
'high God' is a special rank I created, to differentiate the 'pantheonic leaders'. They may just be an extremely powerful deity (DvR 21-25), or they could be a primodial that has become a deity as well.
Any god that does not fit fit either the exarch or 'deity' (ascended mortal) tier is an Ordial. You guys' 'Quasi-deity' category is actually a greater umbrella category, because it could include exarchs. Yours is more like an offshoot-category: A powerful outsider who has obtained deity status. So it doesn't really have anything to do with 'power level'.

'god' itself (not to be confused with God, or even GOD) just means a very powerful outsider. For example, commoners of K-T consider even nature spirits to be 'gods' (Kami). The word 'kami' I prefer to 'outsider' myself, but I doubt it would catch on; they mean the same thing, pretty much. In English, the closest approximation would be 'supernatural'. In fact, 'god' doesn't even have to mean its all that powerful (there are plenty of mortals that can easily defeat demigods) - at ts core, its just means "its a boss" - it commends others inside the 'Celestial food-chain'. So you can have a demigod - who's technically 'a god' - in charge of large numbers of people, and you have an archangel that is far more powerful than the 'god', and yet, not be a god itself, because it 'flies solo'.

So 'god' is not a level of power, its a job description. It just means 'boss' in outsider-speak.

EDIT:
Thinking a bit further on this, I think we are making a classic mistake here all along. With mortals we have two different descriptors - class & race. Why are we combining that with gods? Shouldn't gods also have a race/class? Or does that even matter at those levels of power (because 'race' is something physical, although perhaps 'race' can apply to something different, like energy forms)?

So 'deity' is just a job. 'Primordial' is a created being (sorry batrachi dude, but you are not what you think you are!), and 'ascended mortal' is just that - a being that was born in the prime material. We need a new category; maybe 'denizen' - a denizen could be an outsider who was born through a natural process, not created out of thin air. That would take care of most of the folk living in Planescape (I never really liked that they were all 'outsiders', because most are just normal people who happen to be born on some other plane than the prime material). Maybe this was something that PS messed up on? Maybe we should have kept to a more religious/mythological model, and said all the people living in the Great Wheel are 'dead'? hey shouldn't age, and they shouldn't have children.

So there should be some sort of god 'races', and then job descriptions - that might better sort-out all of this confusion.

Looking at a list of 'Angelic hierarchy', I am tempted to apply this to Celestials the way 'type' used to be applied to fiends. To me, Angels are like Ordials - created beings. Interestingly, the list goes - Angels, Archangels, Principalities, Powers...

Powers? Perhaps using these classifications might help us? Catholic Church to the rescue (of D&D)! LMAO

The next are - Virtues, Dominations, Thrones, Cherubim, & Seraphim. Weird, I would have put those last two first (Michael - an archangel - is low on the totem pole?)
But that works for us, because that means everything above those first two tiers is 'a god' (Christianity is polytheistic - who'd have thought?) What they call 'Pricipalities' (Saints?) would be our Demigods.

EDIT2
Maybe the Batrachi CAN be a primordial - I keep forgetting, everything that came into being in that First World (2nd universe? We actually have no way of knowing what # universe we are on) was created by something else. 'Mortality' did not exist until after the Godwar and The Sundering, which mean 'birth' came into being at the same time as 'death'.

The only problem with all that is Sarrukh liches... there shouldn't be any. They should be immortal, by default. And YES, that means there should be a handful of 'First Men' running around as well, but they're probably busy chopping each other's heads off, the crazy bastiches.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 18:47:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, if we are going to have 'demi-' and 'quasi-', we have to have 'para-' (so that we have being-titles that correspond to all the planer variations).

Anything beyond 'deity' level of godhood I've just been lumping into my own 'Ordial' category (just becaue I like the way it works out - Prime Ordials work in/on the Prime Material). Of course, that means there should be astralordials and perhaps even etherealordials (Ætherdials?)...

...and now my head is starting to hurt again.



Well, demigod should go back to what it was.... person born of a god. D&D kind of coopted that word and changed it.
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 18:30:49
Well i was proposing that demi and quasi are essentially the same thing, sages just misunderstood things and got it wrong.

Demipowers are not gods, they are quasi powers - beings on the cusp of godhood that are limited to a single form.

A god is absolutely tied to the outer planes, is not tied to a single body/vessel, and is powered by belief.

A quasi power is not tied to the outer planes, does have a single body/vessel which if slain will end their existence but otherwise they are immortal, and they are not powered by belief but can use it (to become a god).

Quasi powers are not mortals. They are something way beyond mortal. However being a quasi power is not an indication of power level. Quasi powers can exist that are more powerful (comparatively speaking) than most gods. Similarly there are some quasi powers that are seemingly weaker than some mortals (Elrem springs to mind, and the Dark Three were certainly able to overpower their quasi power victims).

Some things we just arent supposed to understand. Creating 1000 categories for things will just confuse things.

You should be able to acquire and lose quasi power status just as you can acquire and lose godhood. Its the specifics of the process we dont know about that should be as varied as the stars. That way it can keep players guessing for ages as to how to achieve it.

I always go back to the 1e realms campaign setting guide for the closest version to eds dream and it usually helps.
Markustay Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 18:28:32
Well, if we are going to have 'demi-' and 'quasi-', we have to have 'para-' (so that we have being-titles that correspond to all the planer variations).

Anything beyond 'deity' level of godhood I've just been lumping into my own 'Ordial' category (just becaue I like the way it works out - Prime Ordials work in/on the Prime Material). Of course, that means there should be astralordials and perhaps even etherealordials (Ætherdials?)...

...and now my head is starting to hurt again.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 15:11:41
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

What do we really know about what the primordials are?

We know that's not what they were originally called, it's just a name sages applied to them later (4e FRCG p42)
We know they were powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (4e FRCG p41)
We know they were powerful enough to fight against the gods in the Dawn War (4e FRCG p42)
We know they originated in the Elemental Chaos as the gods originated in the Astral Sea (4e DMG p160)
We know they created the substance of the first worlds, as well as the Feywild and the Shadowfell as byproducts (4e DMG p161)
We know that they can be worshipped as deities (Akadi, Kossuth, Ubtao etc throughout editions)
We know that mortals can ascend to become primordials (eg. Bazim-Gorag, 4e FRCG p79)
We know that they are cognizant enough to be able to weave plots and deceive each other (eg. Ubtao, 4e FRCG p42)
We know that the primordials that lost the Dawn War were slain, imprisoned, or driven away from Toril (4e FRCG p42)
We know that some of the imprisoned primordials were later released by the batrachi, and ultimately ended up in Abeir (4e FRCG p41)
We know that many of the primordials that ended up in Abeir were slain by dragonkind (4e FRCG p200)

I still like the theory that although they are beings of great power that seem to care less for mortals than deities do, the term "primordial" is more apt for their current state (after their Dawn War loss) than their original state.



I think that the sage who called Bazim-Gorag an "ascended primordial" was simply incorrect. Primordial'ness should not be something you can ascend to. I can buy someone becoming an elemental quasi-power. I can buy a new primordial being formed even today. I'm of the idea that primordials should be "formed" as a primordial from the moment of their creation. I guess after this thread has progressed, I'm seeing we simply need to have some new terms to describe things, and primordial was getting a bit overused.

On Bazim-Gorag in particular, the idea put forth that mortals can "combine" with primordials may be possible, and maybe that's what happened.... the batrachi released primordials.... and maybe they did so by "binding" themselves to said primordials.

HOMEBREW WARNING
In fact, this would kind of fit with the idea I had put forth about the Katashakan humans and their empire, where they were binding with nyama-nummo (which were imprisoned beings/vestiges/far realms entities of all sorts, not necessarily just primordials). However, maybe the humans had a better control over the link since the link was formed via dream magic.
KanzenAU Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 13:54:05
Very true. But it's still all we have to go on, so hopefully the post will stimulate some discussion. I'm sure there's stuff I've forgotten too.
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 12:56:50
Im not sure we can state any of that as a thing we know. They come from the myths and legends and ed has said in the past they should not be treated as fact
KanzenAU Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 11:15:15
What do we really know about what the primordials are?

We know that's not what they were originally called, it's just a name sages applied to them later (4e FRCG p42)
We know they were powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might (4e FRCG p41)
We know they were powerful enough to fight against the gods in the Dawn War (4e FRCG p42)
We know they originated in the Elemental Chaos as the gods originated in the Astral Sea (4e DMG p160)
We know they created the substance of the first worlds, as well as the Feywild and the Shadowfell as byproducts (4e DMG p161)
We know that they can be worshipped as deities (Akadi, Kossuth, Ubtao etc throughout editions)
We know that mortals can ascend to become primordials (eg. Bazim-Gorag, 4e FRCG p79)
We know that they are cognizant enough to be able to weave plots and deceive each other (eg. Ubtao, 4e FRCG p42)
We know that the primordials that lost the Dawn War were slain, imprisoned, or driven away from Toril (4e FRCG p42)
We know that some of the imprisoned primordials were later released by the batrachi, and ultimately ended up in Abeir (4e FRCG p41)
We know that many of the primordials that ended up in Abeir were slain by dragonkind (4e FRCG p200)

I still like the theory that although they are beings of great power that seem to care less for mortals than deities do, the term "primordial" is more apt for their current state (after their Dawn War loss) than their original state.
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 10:51:50
Yes i view quasi power as everything not a god. The power levels of them can indeed exceed that of actual gods in certain circumstances (see lords of the nine or demon lords) but they have a single physical presence that can be killed unlike a god which has multiple vessels and can only be slain on his home plane when the main vessel is slain.

As for giving up power i dont see why not. The totem beasts of uthgardt donated power to uthgar to make him a quasi power. The seven lost gods donated some or all power to the dark three with the same purpose.

Some of those creatures survived and those that did remained quasi powers. But why could one not relinquish almost all your power to become mortal once again.

I reckon any mortal achieving 30HD becomes a quasi power. At that point they are too powerful for thwir mortal form and so it changes them. That power can be stolen or donated to another being.

Ubtao found a way to donate his power by shattering himself which created a new being.

There shouldnt be one way to gain or lose quasi power or godhood. Have multiple (ie hundreds) methods keeps things interesting.
sleyvas Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 10:31:16
I do like re-introducing the term quasipower to cover the "net" of all these different types of unusual gods, but making sure that this isn't so much a power level, but a descriptor that these aren't "normal" outer planar based gods. For instance, it could be used to cover

Archfey

Earthly bound "demigods" or Earthly bound manifestations of greater powers (pre-ToT Mulhorandi gods, Siamorphe before she got an outer plane, Lurue before she got an outer plane, Red Knight before she got an outer plane, Gwaeron Windstrom before he got an outer plane, Gargauth before he got an outer plane, etc...)..... SIDENOTE: interesting how Siamorphe, Lurue, Gwaeron, Red Knight, and Gargauth got outer planes in 3e and it wasn't a big deal in the lore.

Elemental Primordials (Telos, Arambar, etc..)

Entropic Primordials (Entropy, Atropus, the Shadevari, Eshowdow of Chult, etc...)

So, if that's the case, what are "Great Spirits" or Beings that are worshipped as part of beast type cults. What's a good term to start using for them, and how do they form? Many of these have outer planar homes. I get that we'd call them quasipowers, but what would be a good category name for these. Note, this WOULD cover Ulutiu (whom I would have said was a primordia), Ubtao (whom I would have said was a primordial), Rillifane Ralathil, Uthgar, and a whole host of names to be found in the City of Gold products, and probably some in the hordelands/Kara-Tur/Zakhara if we dig. Is there any kind of commonality to these as well, or should it be broken down into categories as well?


On the Ubtao piece of this... it should be noted that he "fragmented" himself, and from this came a prime bound being that I label above as an entropic primordial (i.e. Eshowdow). Did, and can, a primordial give up its "primordial" nature? Was Ubtao some kind of Entropic Primordial that actually came to embrace life? Was this why he fragmented?
Gary Dallison Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 08:37:45
Or maybe we just dont know what a primordial actually is.

Consider that as we know it a primordial is immortal and super powerful (compared to mortals) and can donate some of its power to those that 'bond' with it. But its very firmly grounded on the material plane.

A god can fulfils much the same of thse criteria except that it can donate power freely to whomever it chooses and it is not bound to the material plane.

The exception to the gods above is a demi god which is bound to the material plane and can donate power less freely (because it has less power possibly).

Now when Ed conceived the realms there were no demipowers. Instead they were quasi powers.

What if 2nd edition got it wrong and miscategorised quasi powers as demi powers.

What if a primordial is actually just a quasi power.

A quasi power is just a creature possessed of awesome power to the point that it is now immortal and can donate that power to others. Its also the first step on the path to godhood.

That means thr Dark Three stole power from other quasi powers (the 7 lost gods) to become quasi powers themselves. They then travelled the world displaying their awesome power and gaining followers to the point where they became actual gods.

Uthgar did a similar trick with his totem beasts and potentially so did Malar. Ubtao was born a quasi power and became a god after being worshipped in chult.

Bazim gorag probably wasnt quite a quasi power when born but must have become so sometime after travelling to limbo.


Just an idea but maybe we are overcomplicating things that cannot possibly be known. Its far simpler to have quasi power encompass everything not a full fledged god and then everything after that is just various levels of godhood.
Markustay Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 07:56:49
I really don't like that something can become a primordial - that doesn't sit well with me. I mean, it goes against the very definition of the word. "Yeah, I'm primordial... as of yesterday." Just no.

UNLESS that particular Batrachi (and come to think of it, we don't really have to many Batrachi walking around these days) was around before the Sundering (as all 'Creatori' were), in which case, maybe the 'rules were different back then'. We didn't have deities until after mortality (death) itself came into the world, so if something was able to ascend prior to that, I guess it would have HAD to have been a primordial (and then the name also works - I think that label should only go on things that existed pre-Sundering).

Zeromaru X Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 05:48:20
I guess the ascended batrachi can be changed to "ascended mortal". Such as a mortal can get an apotheosis and become a god, I guess the same is true for mortals that "ascend" to primordials. There is even an epic destiny in 4e that allows you to become into something akin to a primordial, IIRC (published in Heroes of Elemental Chaos, if I'm not wrong).
KanzenAU Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 04:51:00
Taking from discussion in the Cosmology Theories thread again, we found another bit of lore to think about: the "ascended batrachi" primordial Baz-Gorag.

That leaves us with six types of primordial to account for:
1. The primordials who sat out the entire plane-spanning Dawn War (Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, Istishia)
2. The primordials who lost the plane-spanning Dawn War outside Ao's crystal sphere, or were driven away from Toril in the local Dawn War (eg. Cryonax)
3. The primordial that sided with the gods during the local Dawn War (Ubtao)
4. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but were released by the batrachi and ultimately granted dominion over Abeir (eg. Asgorath?)
5. The primordials who lost the local Dawn War but weren't released by the batrachi (eg. Maegera?)
6. The batrachi that ascended to become a primordial (Bazim-Gorag)
KanzenAU Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 05:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I recall that answer, and I wasn't ecstatic about it, if only because there winds up being a weird 'back & forth' thing going on there.

If Northmen first appeared on the mainland, and then spread to the sea, how is it that they only later started looting & pillaging that same mainland coast (which would include Luskan, which is a major turning-point in their history)?

It just seems odd to me - appear on land, go out to sea, raid the land, then raid the wrong place and get driven inland, and THEN become the 'Conan-esque' barbarians... that you could have/should have become right from the very beginning. What that means is the Ulgardt aren't really two separate ethnic groups that merged - they're just two offshoots of the same group that merged back together latter. Not an impossibility, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

I recall the answer unsettling me a bit when I first read it too, and I suspect it might be hard to line up with Races of Faerun and other sources. However, I quite like the idea that the islander Northmen went through a portal and ended up in the middle of a continent with no readily apparent sea - a very uncomfortable state of affairs I would imagine. It makes sense to me that they would have expanded out from there, trying to find the sea, and their homes! We also don't know when they arrived in the North, it may have been a long time before they settled Luskan.

I imagine a scenario where they arrive in the North, travel down the Mirar to find the sea, and set off on the sea to find their island home. They scour the Trackless Sea, but after years of searching they eventually come to the understanding they are in an entirely different sea to the one they once called home. Having sailed to Anchorome and set up a temporary settlement there, after many years they make a decision that their original home is not to be found. Thus, they sail back to the east to settle Ruathym at around -3100 DR (GHotR), an island they found on their journeys which most resembled their original home. A hundred years later, with a growing population of young men and women eager to forge their own destinies, some decide to return to the Sword Coast and found Illusk.

I added the bit about Anchorome to explain a point in the GHotR which says that Ruathym was founded by "human seafarers from the west".
Markustay Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 04:08:29
Yeah, I recall that answer, and I wasn't ecstatic about it, if only because there winds up being a weird 'back & forth' thing going on there.

If Northmen first appeared on the mainland, and then spread to the sea, how is it that they only later started looting & pillaging that same mainland coast (which would include Luskan, which is a major turning-point in their history)?

It just seems odd to me - appear on land, go out to sea, raid the land, then raid the wrong place and get driven inland, and THEN become the 'Conan-esque' barbarians... that you could have/should have become right from the very beginning. What that means is the Uthgardt aren't really two separate ethnic groups that merged - they're just two offshoots of the same group that merged back together latter. Not an impossibility, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

While designing my own version of FR's lore/history, I've tried to backwards engineer quite a few things so that everything wasn't 'from Earth'. For example, instead of our K-T having gotten its stuff from earth, I have it where BOTH Earth AND K-T were settled by people from another Crystal Sphere (Jadespace?). As for our Finnish Gods, I have it where the Finnish myths actually took place ON Toril (the lands just north of Endless Wastes and east of The Great Ice sea). that makes the Finnish pantheon NATIVE, and it then migrated TO Earth (not vice-versa). I try to create as many of these variants as I can, so everything doesn't get the same explanation.

But as for the Northmen, I say they ARE Earth's Northmen (Norse). I never gave much thought to how that got there (don't have to - its the damn Forgotten Realms), but a couple of years back I read an interesting trilogy of Cthulhu stories (not my usual fare), and in that they had some 'big bad' (I forget which - I'll find it tomorrow; it was some 'elder evil of cold') that kidnapped MANY northern peoples, and deposited them on various worlds where they wanted to get a foothold (one way of becoming a god on a world is to dump a bunch of your worshipers there). So now I'm toying with the idea that a large group of Northmen got purposely 'dumped' on Toril for some nefarious purpose, which probably never saw fruition (perhaps thats when Tyr first got involved?)
KanzenAU Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 01:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

For instance, the Northmen came from somewhere. Now it COULD be the continents above Anchorome (I don't believe it to be the continent West of Anchorome, as I think that is where the Aearee were from). But, it could just as well have been that they came over from Abeir and that some of the islands off Anchorome's coast hold Northmen from Abeir.

Not to wander too much off topic, but Ed tackled where the Northlanders came from back in 2010, in a reply to Markustay where he gave some theories on where they originated:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One, 27th December, 2010

Ah, but you forgot one other possibility re. movement: gate/portal travel from elsewhere on Toril. To the rugged, rolling mountains/valleys/foothills country north and east of Luskan and Mirabar, and south of the Spine of the World.
Where the "Northmen" appeared, wandered in search of seas like those they were used to (in the same latitude, but on the other side of the planet), "discovered" the Sword Coast, and then the islands (notably the archipelago of the northeast Moonshaes, that was once explored in a long-ago TSR module, from which they spread to the other northern Sea of Swords isles, conquering as they went).

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