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 Elminster's first encounter with Manshoon

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
jordanz Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 00:00:52
Was this ever documented anywhere? If so what were the circumstances leading up to it.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
The Masked Mage Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 19:00:39
Arch-friend... hmmm instantly brings to mind the image of caryatid columns from the old 2nd Ed. Monstrous Manual:

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/golem.php

Barastir Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 12:38:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)

Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs.

(...)



I'd like to have an Exarch as my arch-friend!
Barastir Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 12:36:05
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

(...) About 2 or 3 years ago, I asked Ed about an NPC that saw nothing more than 1 or 2 lines of text in a 1990's product. He said the NPC was still under an NDA, but we should get more info in May.
(...)


You surely misunderstood him, he probably said "the character is under an NDA and I MAY give you some info as soon as I can"...

Thraskir Skimper Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 01:41:55
I have a Magic Item that was found in Thay and resulted is several changes and might explain your Manshoon dilemma.


AJA Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 01:40:37
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Can you point me to this?


Self-proclaimed in the novel The Herald apparently (I haven't read):

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One, 03 Jul 2014, Ask Ed '14

Oh, and one more thing. I'm glad you used the phrase "claimed to be the last chosen of Mystryl," because Ed did caution me that we have only Larloch's word that he is


Confirmed few months later:

quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 17 Sep 2014, Forging The Realms: After the Fall

So Telamont Tanthul, an undeniably arrogant and overconfident ruler used to having his will backed by many arcanists of skill and power, came up against a Chosen of Mystryl, Larloch


http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall

The Masked Mage Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 04:42:27
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?



Ed confirmed that Larloch's a Chosen of Mystryl a couple years ago. And yes, they used Exarch in 4e.



Can you point me to this?
The Masked Mage Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 06:04:43
For those who don't immediately see the connection - more information about this bargain is given in DDGttUD.
Markustay Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 03:10:42
Just re-read it.

I don't know if you can count that, for two reasons. First, Manshoon didn't know that was Elminster, so I would hardly call that a 'meeting' between the two. Second, we do not know if Manshoon had actually met the real Elminster at an earlier date; Elminster seemed to know of Manshoon (which may or may not indicate an actual, face-to-face meeting).

RW, It does count as the first published 'meeting' of the two, in that it is the earliest (FR timeline-wise) that we, the fans, are aware of. Its also where we find out why the Old Mage never kills Manshoon (even when he really should).

bloodtide_the_red Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 01:51:03
Is not the first meeting between Elminster and Manshoon in the story: So High A Price in Realms of Infamy?
Markustay Posted - 26 Sep 2016 : 04:19:01
You NEVER have to explain yourself, dude - I just found it funny, is all. We all do cr@p like that, all the time.

Its your Realms - you do whatever you want with it. If 4e can be 'congratulated' for anything, it was the fact that we hard-core fans now have a complete disconnect with what canon is, or needs to be. I guess sometimes you have to kill something to set it free.
Wrigley Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 21:56:10
Yeah it sounds funny if you put it like that. I just nitpicked what suited me and it was a great idea.
As for "mysterious" things I do like the current state of Realms in that we could debate most of those mysteries left as we want because they will not be officialy released (probably never). One bonus of revealed lore is that we can all agree on that as base line. Lot of theories here are problematic to discuss because they are already build upon previous presumptions of the person writing it. As a gameamaster I like most possible amount of lore released/solved because then I can use them well in my game. If I do not know the actual mover behind some action how can my players find out? For me personaly it is a great fun to unravel those lore gems out there and for Realms it feels like peeling an onion for years now.
Markustay Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 18:59:00
Really?
LOL!

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.




Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D

I read this whole thing and was like -

Person A: I want him connected to Shoon!
Person B: Well, I feel it makes more sense to do this, this, & this...
Person B: Thats great! Now I can connect him to Shoon!


I LOVE unintended comedy.

I like everything 'mysterious', BTW, like how it was in 1e and early 2e. late 2e and 3e DEFINED too many of these mysteries, taking a lot of the tools out of the DMs hands. GREAT for setting-fans, not so great for people trying to run an RPG. It also inadvertently tied the hands of future designers, because it created way too many 'facts' that now had to be woven into everything (which didn't prove possible, so they just ignored a lot, which lead to the downfall of the setting/fanbase, IMO).

Not really a rant (at this point), just an observation. I don't ever want to know Manshoon's 'real past', because that would be one less thing we can have these interesting threads about.
The Masked Mage Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 16:33:27
lol - wow - I didn't understand why you wanted him to be Shoon until Dazz pointed out the name :P - I'm very quick witted, I swear! :P
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 16:02:21
Slightly related but in cloak and dagger thr manshoon clone calls himself orbakh (before 3e renames him to orlak2).

I found a crypt of orbakh in the attack on myth drannor module. He was some kind of necromancer.

Not sure if there is a link betweeb orbakh and manshoon but it seems just as likely as shoon and manshoon (after all they both only have a name in common).
The Masked Mage Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 14:23:12
The biggest problem with it being Shoon, is there were only a couple Wizard Qyzars and they don't really fit the picture - so I'd say there are only 3 options:

Shoon IV - the first Necroqysar, he attempted to become a lich and failed so could be possible; however, his methods are much to direct and bold to mirror Manshoon. Manshoon is not bold but calculating so its not a good fit. Also, he's not a necromancer - which would seem to be what he would be if he was possessed by a necromancer.

Shoon VI - a wizard qysar, who I think would be your best fit. He returned to the Empire a powerful wizard... could be he found this book and it made him what he was, until he was assassinated that is. So the book would not be his "phylactery" but someone who predates him. Was the source of his power as well as Manshoon's - again perhaps Imaskarkana.

Shoon VII - THE Necroqysar - doesn't work because 1) another necromancer and 2) cannon has him as a demilich in a different book and a different plot line :P
Wrigley Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 13:57:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.




Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D
Markustay Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 06:16:21
'Exarch' was a level of power, and does not reflect whether a being has worshipers or not.

Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs. The other titles denote their 'standing' and abilities, within a pantheon (or not).

And in one novel, Elminster 'summoned' a lesser goddess (Eldath, IIRC). I guess being a 'Chosen' of a Greater(+) power, you get to 'pull rank' even on gods.

But at the end of the day, I chalk all of this up to 'beyond mortal comprehension'. We are looking at these beings two, perhaps three, dimensionally, when there are facets to them we can't even begin to understand (including their hierarchy/relationships to each other).

Even in the mortal world, we have all different ways of measuring 'power'. You could probably easily find a Private who could beat-up a General, but he wouldn't... not without severe repercussions. The general is 'more powerful' in a totally different way than strength.
jordanz Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 04:05:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It sounds to me that the distinction between Chosen and Demigods was lost somewhere, and it is not very difficult to understand.

Chosen (of Mystra) are powerful and effectively immortal. The power of other Chosen depends upon how much power the god instills in them. They are not gods.

Gods are beings that have worshipers, and draw upon that arrangement for their power. This includes demigods. Why was Joel so important? Because Finder needed worshipers.

The old term for "gods" that had no worshipers was quasi-deity (this is from back in 1st ed): basically they could become demigods if they managed to get worshipers but haven't or don't want to.

I don't think Chosen even rise to that level of power, because their power is not their own - it is a gift from a god.

I recommend everyone do everything they can to forget the terrible mess made of Gods in 4th edition - including the Exarchs - which included everyone from Chosen to Intermediate level gods in one big ugly unmeasurable group of stupidity that did not reflect the realms pantheons well at all.



This was my understanding. Basically Quasi deities < Demigods.
The Masked Mage Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 15:37:39
The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.

So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.

That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.
The Masked Mage Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 15:10:53
It sounds to me that the distinction between Chosen and Demigods was lost somewhere, and it is not very difficult to understand.

Chosen (of Mystra) are powerful and effectively immortal. The power of other Chosen depends upon how much power the god instills in them. They are not gods.

Gods are beings that have worshipers, and draw upon that arrangement for their power. This includes demigods. Why was Joel so important? Because Finder needed worshipers.

The old term for "gods" that had no worshipers was quasi-deity (this is from back in 1st ed): basically they could become demigods if they managed to get worshipers but haven't or don't want to.

I don't think Chosen even rise to that level of power, because their power is not their own - it is a gift from a god.

I recommend everyone do everything they can to forget the terrible mess made of Gods in 4th edition - including the Exarchs - which included everyone from Chosen to Intermediate level gods in one big ugly unmeasurable group of stupidity that did not reflect the realms pantheons well at all.
Lilianviaten Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 02:51:07
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Telamont and co. imprisoned Mestiopheles off his home turf and with that stolen divine spark. Demons are vulnerable that way but authentic DemiGods are not. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part when facing Larloch, we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod. Rivalen did not fear his Dad after he ascended





Well, the divine spark hadn't yet been taken from Kesson Rel at that point. Telamont just summoned 5 of his archmage underlings and used a spell to bind Mephistopheles. But what I'm getting at is that Telamont has the ability to at least harm Rivalen. (Magadon fully bonded with the source is also demigod level, and he couldn't put Telamont down.)


So while it seems clear that Telamont falls short of demigod level, Larloch is established a being out of Telamont's league. I find it very safe to state that Larloch is demigod level, even without Ed explicitly saying so.

Also, Rivalen not fearing Telamont after ascending was as much about nihilism as power. Rivalen became completely nihilistic after absorbing Shar's power (which is why Telamont didn't seek the power for himself). So once the Shadowstorm was in motion, Rivalen didn't care if he died or not.
Irennan Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 02:23:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?



Ed confirmed that Larloch's a Chosen of Mystryl a couple years ago. And yes, they used Exarch in 4e.
Markustay Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 01:40:32
Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?
jordanz Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 01:01:22
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Telamont and co. imprisoned Mestiopheles off his home turf and with that stolen divine spark. Demons are vulnerable that way but authentic DemiGods are not. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part when facing Larloch, we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod. Rivalen did not fear his Dad after he ascended
jordanz Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 00:57:21
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant ( lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod.
Lilianviaten Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 19:02:43
I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.
jordanz Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 06:02:53
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...




Indeed, Manshoon was completely right in that exchange. FR gods have always been portrayed just like archmages. They are super powerful humans (or other creatures) with all the frailties common to mortals: pettiness, bad tempers, jealousy, short sightedness, impulsiveness, etc.

Mystra's a better example than most, since Midnight was just a mediocre mage who got extremely lucky. She's not worthy of Elminster's worship, as he was actually a more qualified candidate for the job. Larloch has a better understanding of magic than Midnight ever did, yet the story makes him out as unworthy to be the god of magic.

And I won't even get started on Cyric being the god of lies, strife, murder, and even intrigue at one point!! There are tons of novel characters more clever than Cyric, yet he somehow bumbled his way into being a god. He's not worthy of any worship.

From what we've seen, I think Manshoon's view is the only realistic one. It makes perfect sense that people in the Realms worship gods in exchange for protection, preferential treatment, or even superpowers and immortality in the most extreme cases. But to worship them out of reverence for how perfect they are is just silliness.



I believe Karsus felt the same. Not sure if I agree otherwise Larloch should be considered a Demi god right now just based on power....But he is not and would likely be at disadvantage if he were to battle a Demigod of magic. But maybe am wrong about that...
Lilianviaten Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 05:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...




Indeed, Manshoon was completely right in that exchange. FR gods have always been portrayed just like archmages. They are super powerful humans (or other creatures) with all the frailties common to mortals: pettiness, bad tempers, jealousy, short sightedness, impulsiveness, etc.

Mystra's a better example than most, since Midnight was just a mediocre mage who got extremely lucky. She's not worthy of Elminster's worship, as he was actually a more qualified candidate for the job. Larloch has a better understanding of magic than Midnight ever did, yet the story makes him out as unworthy to be the god of magic.

And I won't even get started on Cyric being the god of lies, strife, murder, and even intrigue at one point!! There are tons of novel characters more clever than Cyric, yet he somehow bumbled his way into being a god. He's not worthy of any worship.

From what we've seen, I think Manshoon's view is the only realistic one. It makes perfect sense that people in the Realms worship gods in exchange for protection, preferential treatment, or even superpowers and immortality in the most extreme cases. But to worship them out of reverence for how perfect they are is just silliness.
Lilianviaten Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 05:21:53
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

I have not read any post-Spell Plague novels, but based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.

In general, though, the philosophical underpinning of Mystra (pre-Times of Troubles) is that she was Lawful Neutral in alignment, i.e., unbothered about whether magic was used for good or evil purposes, but only that magic flourished. The storylines' focus on the Chosen of Mystra acting as a superheroes league obscured the fact that, ultimately, the role of the Chosen was to ensure that magic ("the Weave") would be preserved and expanded. Elminster's comment should be interpreted in that fashion - Manshoon, while using magic for "evil", furthered the goals of Mystra by using magic, and developing new magics, and foster magic by tutoring other mages, and even beefing up the numbers of mages in the Zhentarim. Had he worked to, say, try to curtail magic, or harm the Weave, that would have been a different matter. I think every one of us must have thought at one time or the other, based on their respective levels and abilities, Elminster could squash Manshoon like a bug, so why doesn't he? The answer would be that Mystra was pleased with Manshoon's role in the development of magic, and therefore did not want him destroyed.

I think Elminster's and Manshoon's first interaction in official lore (in Spellfire) illustrates that purpose - Elminster fought off those who would try and secure Shandril Shessair's spellfire, as whomever did so would be able to severely curtail the role of magic-users and mages across the Realms, and, therefore, reduce Mystra's standing and stature. In the follow-on novel (Crown of Fire, Manshoon actively tried to take control of Shandril, and Elminster put an end to that quite promptly. Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.




That in turn raises the question of why the Chosen didn't do more (after their initial stint in Return of the Archwizards) to defeat the Shadovar. Telamont and his sons followed Shar, who by her very nature acts in darkness and keep secrets. The Shadovar spent years on treasure hunting expeditions, hoarding all the magic items and scrolls they could from Ancient Netheril. And of course, they made their final obvious bid to take over the Weave itself. If Larloch hadn't single handedly wiped out all the mightiest Shadovar, what exactly were the Chosen going to do?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Sep 2016 : 02:52:26
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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....



Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.



Possibly he was entrapped in a phylactery of sorts previously?



Maybe. It'd be tricky to execute without hitting what I call the Madcoil Effect: a backstory so contrived and ridiculous that it overwhelms an otherwise cool concept.

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