| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 10:14:55
Specifically, the nature of the power that allows the traitor/priestess to shield their thoughts from another goddess and her priestesses. Is this protective ability discussed somewhere? What is the strength and shape of it? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 22:22:30
Oh man, I won't go there. I've commented on this so many times that I must sound like a broken record by now. Because of the change that they offer, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun should have both gained many more followers, but w/e. You do have a point that whenever Eilistraee or Vhaeraun appear in the picture, they ultimately end up losing, and their few victories are merely pyrrhic and always transient. Plus they came off as really lame at the end of WotSQ, to me at least (and that's from someone that loves them).
WotC like to downplay them. Now that they seem to have become friends after their return, you'd think that they should be up to something, but if it wasn't for Ed sprinkling lore about them, we'd have almost nothing if not a few words in the new sourcebook (and that's despite the fact that the focus has been on the drow for quite a bit of time during 5e). Bleh. |
| Xanthias |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 21:25:29
Actually, the power Lolth holds over so many drow has been bugging me since forever.
Granted, the real world offers examples of some exceptionally horrible practices and tyrannical regimes lasting surprisingly long, but we are talking millennia here, and millennia of such unmitigated horror, that even the worst real-life dictators look friendly in comparison.
Even a favored highborn priestess is nothing more than a plaything for her goddess, subject to her whims at all times. Dominating others beneath her in the social hierarchy (who are even worse off) does not make her less of a slave herself.
In theory, that’s where Masked Traitors (plus secret followers of Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, etc.) enter the picture. But somehow, they are still disappointingly rare, and, despite having opportunity after opportunity presented to them, and potential allies aplenty, constantly fail when it matters most?
They don’t even get one tenth of the spotlight they deserve. It’s always lolth this, Lolth that. Even when followers of Eili, or - wonder of wonders! - the Masked Lord, get some screen time, caring about their efforts is difficult even for me. The status quo will hold, that’s a foregone conclusion, so why even bother? Yawn.
And the Masked Traitors are such an interesting concept, too. Forget background noise like Shakti Hunzrin, think instead of the damage one of those could inflict if she acted intelligently.
A superpowered morally ambiguous spy destroying, say, Menzoberranzan from inside (not trying to, but actually accomplishing her goal, after all those botched attempts) would have been a breath of fresh air. Lolth actually losing in a substantial way, would have merited friggin’ fireworks and champagne. But… No.
(Ched Nasad? Not even worth the trouble.)
Just imagine something like what WotSQ should have been, but from the perspective of secret vhaeraunites. Who are actually victorious for once. Think of the chaos, the layers of deception, of traitor priestesses using their insider knowledge to strike the system when and where it hurts most. Think of the matrons finally losing control and actually facing the chaos they profess to worship.
Imagine Gromph realizing he chose the losing side.
Imagine the status quo going down the drain in the most exciting way possible.
Okay, rant mode /off.
Spells like the one discussed in this topic are cool, but certainly not the coolest thing about followers of Vhaeraun. They are change. In the middle of one of the most stagnant and oppressive societies in fantasy literature. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 01:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Why "ultimate"? There can be worse things. The drider transformation is the worst of common.
And as far as Lolth is concerned, this may be not only punishment, but a corrective measure (for the failed individual) and even acknowledgement. With bonus training wheel for the rest.
Remember, in the end it's all about three things: natural selection, faith and collecting souls.
If one drow fails to become sufficiently spider-like on the inside, well... there's a way to bring the point closer to home.
The driderhood is reserved for the drow who deliberately and to a serious extent go against the way of Lolth. This cannot be allowed to continue - but on the other hand, there's a strong individual who presumes to stand alone... thus such a transgressor is removed from the society and gene pool, but not wasted.
quote:
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment.
Indeed, how strange - why the drow don't habitually turn themselves into something huge, like ogres? 
You're totally missing my point. It doesn't matter whether it's the ultimate punishment or not. Why is being turned into a half spider a punishment at all for a race that worships spiders?
Shar turned her faithful into shades as a reward for good service. Devils get promoted into more powerful devils as a reward. Far Realm cultists and warlocks can eventually be turned into aberrations as a reward.
What Lolth does is the equivalent of Asmodeus turning his cultists into pit fiends as a punishment. It makes no sense that you would be transformed into something more like your god as a punishment. And as we know, Lolth herself often takes on the form of a giant half spider and is obsessed with spiders. If you're a Lolth worshipper, how is it a valid punishment to be made more like Lolth?
As I recall Driders transformation the punishment was becoming ugly, not becoming half-spider.
As a Drider you become an outcast, the Spider half form a reminder of your failure. A Drow transformed into a Drider is an outcast to be shunned and at times being killed, because you failed as a good faithful of Lolth.
Is it logical? Most would say not, however Lolth is not considered a very logical deity. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 27 Aug 2016 : 01:04:22
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Why "ultimate"? There can be worse things. The drider transformation is the worst of common.
And as far as Lolth is concerned, this may be not only punishment, but a corrective measure (for the failed individual) and even acknowledgement. With bonus training wheel for the rest.
Remember, in the end it's all about three things: natural selection, faith and collecting souls.
If one drow fails to become sufficiently spider-like on the inside, well... there's a way to bring the point closer to home.
The driderhood is reserved for the drow who deliberately and to a serious extent go against the way of Lolth. This cannot be allowed to continue - but on the other hand, there's a strong individual who presumes to stand alone... thus such a transgressor is removed from the society and gene pool, but not wasted.
quote:
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment.
Indeed, how strange - why the drow don't habitually turn themselves into something huge, like ogres?
You're totally missing my point. It doesn't matter whether it's the ultimate punishment or not. Why is being turned into a half spider a punishment at all for a race that worships spiders?
Shar turned her faithful into shades as a reward for good service. Devils get promoted into more powerful devils as a reward. Far Realm cultists and warlocks can eventually be turned into aberrations as a reward.
What Lolth does is the equivalent of Asmodeus turning his cultists into pit fiends as a punishment. It makes no sense that you would be transformed into something more like your god as a punishment. And as we know, Lolth herself often takes on the form of a giant half spider and is obsessed with spiders. If you're a Lolth worshipper, how is it a valid punishment to be made more like Lolth? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Aug 2016 : 02:44:42
Eh. Kiaransalee is literally insane, she is consumed with her purpose of claiming vengeance against any perceived slight, and she cares more about the undead than she does about the living. I don't think that she could lead the drow towards a decent future. Nothing against necromancers in general, but I don't like her approach to necromancy (worship of death/undeath, rather than considering necromancy an useful tool).
Plus she can randomly appear as a pair of skeletal hands and magically drag you underground for kicks. Literally. She won't even let you go (unless someone comes to save you), if you have ever done something that she perceives as a slight towards her. Man, that's just nasty and insane. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 25 Aug 2016 : 02:30:28
It is actualy common "punishment" for those who fail the Test and live to tell about it. Most of the heretics are simply killed on her altar.
Also I wouldn't say natural selection but more likely breeding program. But faith and soul collection sounds about right.
Drow do not habitually turn themselves into anything (except undead), Lloth do that.
Irennan: your standpoint now makes much more sense once I know that you fight for the children (Vhaerun, Elistrae). What about the poor Kieranselee? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 24 Aug 2016 : 23:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Why "ultimate"? There can be worse things. The drider transformation is the worst of common.
And as far as Lolth is concerned, this may be not only punishment, but a corrective measure (for the failed individual) and even acknowledgement. With bonus training wheel for the rest.
Remember, in the end it's all about three things: natural selection, faith and collecting souls.
If one drow fails to become sufficiently spider-like on the inside, well... there's a way to bring the point closer to home.
The driderhood is reserved for the drow who deliberately and to a serious extent go against the way of Lolth. This cannot be allowed to continue - but on the other hand, there's a strong individual who presumes to stand alone... thus such a transgressor is removed from the society and gene pool, but not wasted.
quote:
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment.
Indeed, how strange - why the drow don't habitually turn themselves into something huge, like ogres? |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 24 Aug 2016 : 04:46:11
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I knew that the house had driders, but not they had positions of authority. Anyway, I think that 4e changed driders from being the result of a punishment, to being that of a reward, so there's also that.
That's one of the things 4e got right. The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment. Even being creatures of chaos, drow have certain logic that makes sense within the context of their cultural and religious belief systems.
Yeah, I honestly found it confusing too. Although the "you give up your mind and become and puppet of Lolth" also had its own logic, and was a pretty nasty punishment, fitting for failing a test of loyalty.
Interestingly, being eaten and absorbed by Lolth was Danifae's reward for being granted the status of Chosen. I know the drow are crazy, but there were definitely some contradictory elements thrown into their lore over the years. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Aug 2016 : 04:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I knew that the house had driders, but not they had positions of authority. Anyway, I think that 4e changed driders from being the result of a punishment, to being that of a reward, so there's also that.
That's one of the things 4e got right. The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment. Even being creatures of chaos, drow have certain logic that makes sense within the context of their cultural and religious belief systems.
Yeah, I honestly found it confusing too. Although the "you give up your mind and become and puppet of Lolth" also had its own logic, and was a pretty nasty punishment, fitting for failing a test of loyalty. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 24 Aug 2016 : 03:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I knew that the house had driders, but not they had positions of authority. Anyway, I think that 4e changed driders from being the result of a punishment, to being that of a reward, so there's also that.
That's one of the things 4e got right. The idea of driders being the ultimate punishment was always stupid. One of the few consistent standards among Lolth worshippers was the sacred nature of spiders. They are the only creatures that drow don't torture, kill, or use as bait in their schemes.
Another consistent standard in drow society is craving power for its own sake, and being willing to do anything for it. Thus, being morphed into a giant half spider that's significantly more powerful can't possibly be a punishment. Even being creatures of chaos, drow have certain logic that makes sense within the context of their cultural and religious belief systems. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 15:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by Elven Avenger
You write in a way that looks like a song, makes me like the twin drow gods even more. Seriously!
You don't know how happy I am to hear that. I really love Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (especially Eilistraee, who means a lot to me, but I feel strongly about her brother as well), yet they are too often downplayed or undervalued as cheap, lesser deities, who have little importance in the greater picture. So, if I can get people to like them (or like them even more), I'm happy  |
| Elven Avenger |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 15:05:38
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
You don't need such a spell to detect someone's faith. A simple mindreading spell will do the trick. That Vhaeraunan spell can protect Masked Traitors even from the prying of other deities, while also providing a believable lie, rather than just blocking eventual examinations (like, say, Mind Blank does). It's actually a neat tool.
Torilians are polytheists, true. However, we're talking about priests here, and they rearely are polytheist. They can worship a whole pantheon, but worshiping the Dark Seldarine as a whole is unheard of, given their relationship with each other. In fact, polytheism is different for the drow, since Lolth expressely forbids even as little as speaking the name of other deities, especially her children, who are her sworn enemies.
From what I see, Vhaeraun's dogma is far different from Lolth's. For example, he doesn't claim that love is weakness, or that the drow must be plagued by infighting in order to become "strong". He too values individual strength, but he values cooperation more than that. His teachings are actually closer to the ideals of Eilistraee (in fact, the two siblings are no longer enemies post-Sundering). Vhaeraun wants the drow to be united, to claim their place in the Night Above, and to form a society that is gender-equal and actually based on someone's merits. He even claims that drow and elves should be united for the dominance of the People as a whole (he even promotes mixed marriages because of that). Which is eerily similar to Eilistraee does, with some meaningful differences ofc (both fight to unite the drow, but while Eilistraee helps them to build their place in the world in harmony with all other races, Vhaeraun wants drow and elves to gain back their dominance over Faerun--but he isn't against cooperation with some races, like humans. At least until his plan isn't fulfilled). Granted, Vhaeraun's m.o. is still ruthless and evil, so that's closer to Lolth.
About the ''unmaksed'' Masked Traitors (heh), I remembered wrongly. They do benefit from Lolthite spells, unless she finds out. When she does, she no longer provides her spells (although they retain all the spells that they had prepared before being unmasked).
You write in a way that looks like a song, makes me like the twin drow gods even more. Seriously! |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 03:41:09
It sounds like something Lolth would do.
However, in the original version, driders also became mentally tied to Lolth, and their personality was effectively nullified, AFAIK. That was why it was considered a punishment. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 03:17:41
I have already speculated on driders elsewhere so just a summary: drider can only happen if subject of the Test of Lloth fails to kill a assasin but survives the attack. This by itself is in my eyes huge archievement and they are then transformed into form closely resembling Lloth herself and shuned by the rest of population from their former status. It seems to me like just another step of this test (if they can still believe). If they would be readily accepted by drow in first place it could still be correct but it would loose all the fun...
Also the new form is more powerful so it is a blessing of sort by itself. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:55:26
I knew that the house had driders, but not they had positions of authority. Anyway, I think that 4e changed driders from being the result of a punishment, to being that of a reward, so there's also that. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:50:22
And yet, despite that, driders are awarded positions of authority within the House? oO |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:31:56
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
On a somewhat related note, how the devil did House Melarn end up on the ruling council in Menzo?
It's a namesake. It started with one of the two first daughters of House Horlbar (who had 2 matrons), Jhelnae, secretly being a priestess of Eilistraee and helping drow in Menzo.
At some point Jhelnae's heresy was made public, and house Horlbar became subject of great suspicion and shame, as all houses with an apostate first daughter would be. Shortly after that episode, House Tuin Tarl tried to wipe the Horlbar, but the latter ultimately emerged victorious with the help of house Kenafin (a close ally), and managed to extinguish the Tuin Tarl instead. The two houses then joined forces and took the name of Melarn, in honor of Halisstra, who had betrayed Eilistraee becoming Lolth's servant and had been tasked with the duty of eradicating heresy wherever it emerged.
Both houses were in fact determined to show a zealous (even for drow standards) adherence to the way of Lolth, and hunt apostates in Menzoberranzan. They became vehement inquisitors, convinced that many heretics hide within Menzoberranzan and other drow cities, and are on a crusade to eradicate them all. They never stopped or relented, not even when Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were absent. With their return, I'm sure that they must be going crazy... |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:25:21
On a somewhat related note, how the devil did House Melarn end up on the ruling council in Menzo? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:10:08
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Meh. Ba'queshel had potential although I think I would have liked to know more of the Deathsingers.
It's not her skills as a bard, which were the only remotely interesting thing about her IMO.
It's her being a new convert with a shaky faith and a dull mind being randomly tasked with an immensely important task (which by all logic shuld have been assigned to someone like Qilué, or carried out by Eilistraee herself), for no reason at all except that the plot demanded that she had to be in the spotlight.
And then she started to swing like a pendulum and to act cowardly, making immensely stupid choices. Even her love for Ryld was false: if she truly loved him, she'd have taken her chance to kill Lolth in order to free Ryld from her. Instead, she willingly accepted eternal torment for no reason at all by going back to Lolth, fully knowing what Lolth does to those who betray her.
It's like willignly and knowingly throwing yourself in a pit full of acid, while also giving up any chance to save people that you claim to love and that are hanging just above the acid, soon to fall in it. That character really had no brain, IMO. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 02:00:01
Meh. Ba'queshel had potential although I think I would have liked to know more of the Deathsingers. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2016 : 00:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Geez. All that angst over WotSQ just to have it all retconned away.
It was not properly a retcon, more like a deus ex machina that brought back the whole drow pantheon (and poor Qilué is still dead). The only true retcon was the transformation into Dark Elves. That was deleted for good, and I can honestly see why they chose ignore it. Its implications were simply ugly, and it had nothing to do with Eilistraee.
And I'm with Wooly on Halisstra. She was just a huge plot hole that had no reason to be given any attention (except for being respected and accepted as a person) by Eilistraee and her followers.
Ched Nasad has been partially rebuilt and is controlled by the Jaezred Chaulssin now. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 23:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Geez. All that angst over WotSQ just to have it all retconned away.
Was Ched Nasad rebuilt? (I genuinely don't know)
And I'd be happy if Halisstra was retconned out of existence. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 22:51:52
Geez. All that angst over WotSQ just to have it all retconned away. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 21:45:37
Yeah, everyone is back. One big happy family indeed (although Kiaransalee is not really family). |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 21:43:32
Is Selvetarm back along with E and V? Kiaransalee? One big happy family again? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 21:28:57
Yes, Selvetarm is an exception, but that's because he was turned into a lackey (although he hates her for sure. What a nice family they all are, aren't they?) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 17:29:23
You are right, Vhaerun and Elistrae are closer together but he is still in between (Elistrae>Vhaerun>Lloth). One exception to Lloth's ban is Selvetarm who is accepted as her right hand and can be worshiped but I presume not in exlusion of Lloth's worship :-) There are known Selvetarm's Judicators (form of blackguard) openly living in Lloth's cities.
On other hand Lloth's demand of singleminded worship make sense as she has been trying to get back her position as greater goddess. It probabl take a lot of power to get there so she sucked all she could. In later times there could be a less need for such measures unless she needs it for holding this position also... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 15:25:59
You don't need such a spell to detect someone's faith. A simple mindreading spell will do the trick. That Vhaeraunan spell can protect Masked Traitors even from the prying of other deities, while also providing a believable lie, rather than just blocking eventual examinations (like, say, Mind Blank does). It's actually a neat tool.
Torilians are polytheists, true. However, we're talking about priests here, and they rearely are polytheist. They can worship a whole pantheon, but worshiping the Dark Seldarine as a whole is unheard of, given their relationship with each other. In fact, polytheism is different for the drow, since Lolth expressely forbids even as little as speaking the name of other deities, especially her children, who are her sworn enemies.
From what I see, Vhaeraun's dogma is far different from Lolth's. For example, he doesn't claim that love is weakness, or that the drow must be plagued by infighting in order to become "strong". He too values individual strength, but he values cooperation more than that. His teachings are actually closer to the ideals of Eilistraee (in fact, the two siblings are no longer enemies post-Sundering). Vhaeraun wants the drow to be united, to claim their place in the Night Above, and to form a society that is gender-equal and actually based on someone's merits. He even claims that drow and elves should be united for the dominance of the People as a whole (he even promotes mixed marriages because of that). Which is eerily similar to Eilistraee does, with some meaningful differences ofc (both fight to unite the drow, but while Eilistraee helps them to build their place in the world in harmony with all other races, Vhaeraun wants drow and elves to gain back their dominance over Faerun--but he isn't against cooperation with some races, like humans. At least until his plan isn't fulfilled). Granted, Vhaeraun's m.o. is still ruthless and evil, so that's closer to Lolth.
About the ''unmaksed'' Masked Traitors (heh), I remembered wrongly. They do benefit from Lolthite spells, unless she finds out. When she does, she no longer provides her spells (although they retain all the spells that they had prepared before being unmasked). |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 14:15:08
I do remember only one spell that detected anything about faith and that was Jergalite spell that finds departed soul's patron (for archiving purposes). Also as realms are polytheistic you can easily worship both Lloth and Vhaerun. It is only about who do you choose as your patron diety and that could be quite hard to discern even with magic.
If you look at their dogma's they are actualy quite close to each other with major differece about surface lands and method of archieving your goals but I haven't heard about Lloth giving her power to followers of Vhaerun. Why would she do it? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 13:12:45
The smart thing about Masked Traitors, is that they receive spells from both Lolth and Vhaeraun. They can cast while using Lolth's symbol, name, etc...
Actually, if Lolth finds about a Masked Traitor, she send her followers after them, but if they survive, they keep benefiting from her spells.
As for how they mask themselves, the answers is provided in the books that introduced this concept, and that I've described above. It's a spell designed by Vhaeraun just for this purpose, since it masks your faith with one of your choice, and it provides random but relevant and believable thought to those who pry your mind. So, it doesn't merely block, it deceives. |
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