| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 18:12:57
So as I hear more about the upcoming Curse of Strahd…. I realize that Barovia has its own ethnic "gypsies" (inspired by the Roma people in RL).
But Forgotten Realms already have the Gurs? How does one reconcile this? Are they are the same people just fragmented into separate worlds/planes?
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| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Apr 2016 : 15:33:03
I went the opposite route of Krash - in my own homebrew musings I have it where (nearly) ALL 'gypsy-like peoples' (including those from other games and fictional settings) had a proto-ancestor on some world, which may or may not have been Abeir-Toril.
If The Realms was one of the first places they wound-up, then its pretty easy to assume that they spread outward from there, both physically and meta-physically. The Wastes have been some sort of 'nexus' for this type of planer travel for thousands of years (my assumption being it is easier to do so there because the 'veil between the worlds' is thinner there, either as a result of Imaskari magics, or the Imaskari settled there because it preexisted due to older magics, like those of the Fey).
In fact, come to think of it, it wouldn't be such a leap to think that the 'gypsy-esque' cultures were all stranded Imaskari groups of merchants and explorers who got stranded after the empire fell.
And lastly, I like to think that the Vistani is the closest thing to that original, proto-group that started it all. That could easily shoe-horn with my latest conjecture above (that the Imaskari trapped in Ravenloft would have kept their culture fairly intact regardless of time, due to the nature of the Domains of Dread). It would be a nice 'Easter egg' for someone to include in an article that the Imaskari word for 'trade'* was 'Vistan'. 
*Traders WERE the original explorers. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 27 Apr 2016 : 06:18:54
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Or you could make the Gur unique to the Realms and steer clear of RW analogues.
-- George Krashos
The problem is it's very difficult to avoid that and people will nearly always use real life "Gypsy" tropes. It's pretty obvious the Gurs were meant to be a pretty direct proxy for Romani - and were likely even real life Romani people that ended up over in the Realms somehow, maybe brought over by Ruamathari wizards to work for the empire.
Of course, if you want to do something entirely different that's only somewhat Romani inspired, that is an option. But be careful how to go about it.
I agree Roseweave. And I imagine it would be incredibly difficult — impossible — for the average D&D player to attempt to play a Kara-Tur ninja or samurai warrior without making any references to Japanese (and Asian) cultural tropes. Kara-Tur is essentially the D&D proxy of medieval-feudal East Asia.
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| Roseweave |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 20:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm wondering about the Gur from a purely FR point of view.
Why the nomadic existence. It seems that they were families of Raumathari that were driven west by the Suren who invaded in the wake of the Great Conflagration.
So they move west to the ruins of Narfell and then onto the wilds of Damara.
Were they driven north with the Sossrim by the arrival of the Jhaamdathi from the fall of Jhaamdath. If so why? Is this the ancient prejudice that Races of Faerun speaks of. Do the Jhaam people have a hatred of any nomadic people (there were barbarians around the Dragon Coast that were nomadic and moved north to the Tunlands possibly driven by the Jhaam). Perhaps they were simply forced to move on because of a cultural understanding or perhaps because of an old rivalry with a Raumathari family that had already moved into Impiltur/Damara and thus old hatreds were ignited and they forced to move on.
If north I'd imagine they braved the colds of Vaasa and then perhaps took the abandoned secret tunnels of Sarphil (perhaps called the Highway) through the Galena Mountains. That could bring them up in the Ride.
Then all they have to do is cross through the lands of ruined Netheril.
So is that why they became nomadic? Every place they moved onto was inhospitable or already occupied or hostile. Until finally they reach the Western Heartlands which is claimed by no one nation and so they could happily wander between city states. After hundreds of years of travelling it became the norm for them and something of a tradition.
The Selune and Savras religions I reckon they picked up from the Survivor States (Savras's religion started in Halruaa but was imported to the Heartlands thanks to links with House Orogoth).
again from what I gather it's much the same as the real life Romani - they left around the time of a fall of an empire, fleeing war and were persecuted due to their strange ways wherever they landed, so kept moving. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 20:25:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Or you could make the Gur unique to the Realms and steer clear of RW analogues.
-- George Krashos
The problem is it's very difficult to avoid that and people will nearly always use real life "Gypsy" tropes. It's pretty obvious the Gurs were meant to be a pretty direct proxy for Romani - and were likely even real life Romani people that ended up over in the Realms somehow, maybe brought over by Ruamathari wizards to work for the empire.
Of course, if you want to do something entirely different that's only somewhat Romani inspired, that is an option. But be careful how to go about it. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 19:52:05
I'm wondering about the Gur from a purely FR point of view.
Why the nomadic existence. It seems that they were families of Raumathari that were driven west by the Suren who invaded in the wake of the Great Conflagration.
So they move west to the ruins of Narfell and then onto the wilds of Damara.
Were they driven north with the Sossrim by the arrival of the Jhaamdathi from the fall of Jhaamdath. If so why? Is this the ancient prejudice that Races of Faerun speaks of. Do the Jhaam people have a hatred of any nomadic people (there were barbarians around the Dragon Coast that were nomadic and moved north to the Tunlands possibly driven by the Jhaam). Perhaps they were simply forced to move on because of a cultural understanding or perhaps because of an old rivalry with a Raumathari family that had already moved into Impiltur/Damara and thus old hatreds were ignited and they forced to move on.
If north I'd imagine they braved the colds of Vaasa and then perhaps took the abandoned secret tunnels of Sarphil (perhaps called the Highway) through the Galena Mountains. That could bring them up in the Ride.
Then all they have to do is cross through the lands of ruined Netheril.
So is that why they became nomadic? Every place they moved onto was inhospitable or already occupied or hostile. Until finally they reach the Western Heartlands which is claimed by no one nation and so they could happily wander between city states. After hundreds of years of travelling it became the norm for them and something of a tradition.
The Selune and Savras religions I reckon they picked up from the Survivor States (Savras's religion started in Halruaa but was imported to the Heartlands thanks to links with House Orogoth). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 19:04:49
Or you could make the Gur unique to the Realms and steer clear of RW analogues.
-- George Krashos |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 26 Apr 2016 : 09:43:19
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
In the 4E Vistani supplement, the setting it gives for them in the Realms is identical to the Gurs, so the assumptions is that Vistani have overwritten/merged with Gurs.
I could go with that assumption…. that the Vistani (of later editions) have overwritten/merged with the Gurs from older editions of D&D. There are many instances of NPCs and creatures from later editions essentially "overwriting" older edition counterparts.
The gauth used to be the gauth. But later on it became a "spectator". But really the same thing.
And the older editions had "Daemons" (Neutral Evil fiends, neither devils nor demons). Well they got rid of that confusing name and essentially replaced them with the Yugoloths in later editions. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 22:30:58
In the 4E Vistani supplement, the setting it gives for them in the Realms is identical to the Gurs, so the assumptions is that Vistani have overwritten/merged with Gurs. Since the Gurs themselves were not well designed, I guess it gives you a lot more material to work with.
I'm not happy with the stereotypical magical Gypsy depiction of the Vistani(or the use of the word Gypsy unless absolutely necessary in the first place). "Gypsy" is a real world ethnicity. And it's fine to have that in the realms, jsut as you have other obvious ethnicities, but you should do it right.
I would do real world research into Romani people and base it off that. So, they mostly come from the east/Rashemen, have roots in Indian-type cultures(Durpar etc.) have strict cleanliness laws, certain styles of dress, women wear headscraves when marry, lots of music etc.
http://crystallineprincess.tumblr.com/tagged/short-stories
Tale of Two Siblings involved a Gur/Vistani(based off a mix of RL Kalderash and Sinti/German) and Rashemi mixed family living in Thesk. I know a bit more about Roma culture now so I probably would have written it differently. |
| Korginard |
Posted - 10 Feb 2016 : 17:17:25
I found one! I Found one!
The articles I was referring to were called "History Check" and I found one in Dragon 405 about Rary the Traitor. As per my recollection the story is told by a wandering band of Vistani performers.
And yes Wooly, no matter how much information these articles gave you, you always came away with more questions!!! They were good reads however, offering tidbits of historical info regarding several people and places most long time D&D fans will recognize.
Now that I had the "History Check" name, a simple Google search tells me that there were articles on Stahd and Van Richten, Kas and Vecna, Corellon and Grumsh, and issue 425 has a History of Elemental Evil. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Feb 2016 : 17:15:28
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
That issue includes rules for creating a Vistani character, other issues had "History of" articles written from the perspective of someone visiting a Vistani campfire or wagon and the Vistani telling them tales. I just googled Dragon 380 and found some PDF's of the web editions (Which I had/still have a subscription to and paid for even though I can't find them on the D&D site anymore). When I get home from work I will look and see if I can find something more specific than my rambling memories.
380 is about their culture and playing a Vistani, but the history of it is vague to the point of offering differing legends of their genesis. Vistan may have been male, may have been female, may have been human, may have been halfling, or may have been the name of a region. |
| Korginard |
Posted - 08 Feb 2016 : 16:14:53
That issue includes rules for creating a Vistani character, other issues had "History of" articles written from the perspective of someone visiting a Vistani campfire or wagon and the Vistani telling them tales. I just googled Dragon 380 and found some PDF's of the web editions (Which I had/still have a subscription to and paid for even though I can't find them on the D&D site anymore). When I get home from work I will look and see if I can find something more specific than my rambling memories. |
| moonbeast |
Posted - 08 Feb 2016 : 08:08:36
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I recall reading an article in the 4th ed era in the online dragon magazine. They re-introduced Vistani as world-spanning nomads, able to travel to various worlds like Toril, Oearth, and others. This wasn't spelljammer type travel but more like the mists of Ravenloft taking them to different worlds. They cast Vistani as keepers of old lore and hidden histories.
I think this was a way to reinvent the Vistani for use in 4th Edition, allowing them to be used in any setting, not just Ravenloft. If I recall, the articles touched on the histories of Vecna, Kas, and perhaps a few others.
I found it. Dragon Magazine issue #380.
Seems that the Vistani are not just inter-continental nomads. They are indeed inter-planar travelers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Feb 2016 : 18:08:14
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I recall reading an article in the 4th ed era in the online dragon magazine. They re-introduced Vistani as world-spanning nomads, able to travel to various worlds like Toril, Oearth, and others. This wasn't spelljammer type travel but more like the mists of Ravenloft taking them to different worlds. They cast Vistani as keepers of old lore and hidden histories.
I think this was a way to reinvent the Vistani for use in 4th Edition, allowing them to be used in any setting, not just Ravenloft. If I recall, the articles touched on the histories of Vecna, Kas, and perhaps a few others.
Do you recall which issue that was?
I like that approach... Perhaps the Vistani are some sort of scout for the Dark Powers... |
| Korginard |
Posted - 05 Feb 2016 : 14:45:26
I recall reading an article in the 4th ed era in the online dragon magazine. They re-introduced Vistani as world-spanning nomads, able to travel to various worlds like Toril, Oearth, and others. This wasn't spelljammer type travel but more like the mists of Ravenloft taking them to different worlds. They cast Vistani as keepers of old lore and hidden histories.
I think this was a way to reinvent the Vistani for use in 4th Edition, allowing them to be used in any setting, not just Ravenloft. If I recall, the articles touched on the histories of Vecna, Kas, and perhaps a few others. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 18:35:19
quote:
Originally posted by Khaelieth
Barovia is in Ravenloft, and entirely different plane, specifically the Demiplane of Dread. Travel to the Demiplane of Dread happens, but there are only two cases of people leaving the Demiplane of Dread - Vecna and Lord Soth. Going from Faerun to Ravenloft isn't an issue - coming back certainly would be.
I'm sure there's more than two; escape from the demiplane is much easier for regular adventurers than it is for the darklords. For them, it's the next best thing to impossible, since the Dark Powers are not keen on letting their toys go. For adventurers (and common folk), it's difficult, but not impossible, to escape -- there's even portals out, as I recall.
I'm pretty sure the Vistani were capable of leaving, too. I suspect they remained because of some bond or promise, but I think they had the option of leaving, if they truly wanted to. I won't swear to that, though; I never read that Van Richten's Guide.
All that aside, I think we only know of two escapees because they were so prominent within the setting. Some random commoner escapes, or a group of adventurers that had been pulled in by the Mists manages to make it back out, that's not as big a deal, to the Dark Powers. And it obviously happens, because otherwise, folks not in the Demiplane would have no knowledge of it. |
| Khaelieth |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 17:36:08
Barovia is in Ravenloft, and entirely different plane, specifically the Demiplane of Dread. Travel to the Demiplane of Dread happens, but there are only two cases of people leaving the Demiplane of Dread - Vecna and Lord Soth. Going from Faerun to Ravenloft isn't an issue - coming back certainly would be. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 11:12:04
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Valantra?
Well, these are an interesting, if forgotten group in current canon. Valantra technically just means "Spellsinger" in their groups language. Curiously, they have connection to elves, as Valantra will be often half-elven. I wondered if just "Valantra", weren't spellsingers among Gurs. If we go with the (possible) Netherese connection, with Valantra/Spellsinger Gurs being possibly from Anauria. Rashemi through, were also close to quite a bit elven cultures, and the fact most(over 90%) of Valantra/Spellsingers are female, can be a remanant of Wychlaran traditions. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 03:12:19
Valantra? |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 02:25:47
Ah, thank you. I don't remember terribly much about Ravenloft but I do remember that each Domain originally came from another world. I don't know if they ever specified which particular world Barovia came from. I was really wondering if they'd connect it that way this time...perhaps Barovia was in the Utter East? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 01:25:33
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Having returned only recently, forgive my misunderstanding and naivety. Is The Curse of Strahd going to be linked to FR? Is Strahd and his castle going to be placed in the Realms? I get the impression from the OP that both societies occupy the same world.
Makes me hope beyond hope that someone updates Spulzeer for the DMSGuild...
I believe they're going with the old-school approach for Ravenloft: it's elsewhere, but still accessible from everywhere (usually when you don't expect it!).
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| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 01:23:52
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Having returned only recently, forgive my misunderstanding and naivety. Is The Curse of Strahd going to be linked to FR? Is Strahd and his castle going to be placed in the Realms? I get the impression from the OP that both societies occupy the same world.
Makes me hope beyond hope that someone updates Spulzeer for the DMSGuild...
From WotC's announcement, I'd say that this adventure path will have nothing to do with FR (except that you may get to Barovia from somewhere in the Realms).
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/curse-strahd |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 04 Feb 2016 : 01:19:14
Having returned only recently, forgive my misunderstanding and naivety. Is The Curse of Strahd going to be linked to FR? Is Strahd and his castle going to be placed in the Realms? I get the impression from the OP that both societies occupy the same world.
Makes me hope beyond hope that someone updates Spulzeer for the DMSGuild... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 22:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
So as I hear more about the upcoming Curse of Strahd…. I realize that Barovia has its own ethnic "gypsies" (inspired by the Roma people in RL).
But Forgotten Realms already have the Gurs? How does one reconcile this? Are they are the same people just fragmented into separate worlds/planes?
What is there to reconcile? Why can't there be more than one group of nomadic travelers?  |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 18:13:47
IIRC the Vistani were a unique people, maybe even a separate race, so these are probably different groups. |
