| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 16:14:02
I have a campaign idea where Toril is pulled into the Abyss by Orcus, Lolth, and perhaps Grazz't or Pazuzu.
I would assume that the FR deities would be none too happy with such an event and would do what they could to return Toril to the Prime. Of course there would be no fun in it if they could just snap their fingers and make it so.
So, first question is: How powerful is a FR deity compared to a demon prince when the demon prince is on its home plane? What about its home layer? |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 16:20:46
Epic resolution for the problem indeed! Apocalyptic campaigns can take some solid queues from the 3.5 book Elder Evils, that explain the mechanics of apocalyptic signs. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 12:31:28
Afroakuma had this nice bit written up:
Starting Points
• Eons ago, the demon prince Abraxas, one of the oldest tanar'ri lords, began hatching plans to grow in power by attaining true godhood.
Abraxas isn't a big name among demonkind, and there's a very good reason for that. Hard to rule over secrets when you're famous. But he does have a layer all his own, which makes him a demon prince and something rightly feared. So let's call him the Demon Prince of Talismans, that makes him wonderfully incomprehensible while reflecting his status and mystique.
Abraxas knows about all of the typical pitfalls associated with demonic bids for godhood, which is why he moves slowly and deliberately to secure his plan, recruiting an ally who can help him out while concealing his true purpose. An ancient ally, one unlikely to interfere with his plans. In the Abyss, that means Dagon.
The ancient obyrith, for his own inscrutable purposes, agrees to assist Abraxas, who gives Dagon the plans for seven foul magical talismans that will be used to prepare his arrival into the Material Plane. Dagon suggests the world of Toril as the target, noting that it is rich in faith.
Dagon comes to the ancient Imaskari, posing as a nightmarish entity (posing, ha) that will share deep and potent arcane secrets with them. The Imaskari lap it up and follow Dagon's instructions to craft the seven Faces of Madness, talismans of wizardly power from six schools of magic, plus one imbued with the powers of shadow.
Now, history tells us that the Imaskari fell to a divinely-supported uprising of their own slaves, ruining Abraxas's original bid for power and teaching him the power that the gods would have to disrupt his plans. Abraxas crafted for himself a charade that invaders to his realm had wounded him grievously and let the unwitting rubes carry a "relic" of his back to their homeworld. Hiding away in the shadows of Death's Reward, Abraxas began to plan for his second attempt.
His opportunity would come nearly 2000 years later, with an ambitious young Netherese archmage named Karsus. Through his "stolen" relic, the Tablet of Triumphs, Abraxas sent dreams and whispers into the mind of Karsus. Together, with Karsus as an unwitting partner, they toiled on the spell that would come to be known as Karsus' avatar, a spell that would center the Weave of Toril within the caster, effectively turning him into the new god of magic. However, Abraxas failed to account for Karsus's hubris and impatience; the final step before the casting had been intended to bind the demon prince to the archmage so that the fiend could control all of Mystryl's powers. Instead, Karsus felt he could handle the power alone. What resulted was the fall of Netheril and the death and rebirth of Mystryl. Abraxas's second attempt had failed.
However, this failure had been planned for; the Tablet of Triumphs was exposed to the pure essence of the goddess of magic and captured the secret words at the heart of her essence. Though it shattered in the devastation, over the course of a thousand years Abraxas has been able to retrieve every fragment and reassemble them into his restored relic, now known as the Tablet of Transgression. All he needs now are a few motes of Mystryl's original sources, and he will be able to seize the powers of her inheritors across the whole world.
• Helm has caught wind of and is actively struggling to prevent Abraxas's plan... but only in one particular city
Helm, God of Guardians, is not as ancient as the oldest gods and was not known to be present when Mystryl perished. However, it was Helm who destroyed the second goddess of magic during the Time of Troubles, and while he stands sure that he did his proper duty, he has ever since been unable to shake a feeling of guilt at his haste and the potential consequences for Toril. Helm believes that the damage he did may have permitted Shar to establish the Shadow Weave, and he has been quietly looking for a way to atone.
Abraxas has already gathered what he needs of the Night Goddess to fuel his ambitions, but the Moon Goddess has proved a more difficult target. His agents have discovered an artifact known as the Moonmaiden's Grief, a crystal statue that contains a small mote of Selune in the form of her eternal tears. The artifact lies enshrined in a particular city, one with a strong following of Helm. Abraxas begins making inroads with the mages of that city, hoping to find minions he can use to liberate the artifact and bring it to him. However, Helm has discovered the potential threat that the item could have to Mystra and has determined to protect it, even against herself (as he views the goddess of magic, like her predecessor, to be rash, overconfident and impulsive). Where Helm has erred, and the reason he does not feel the need to disclose his concerns to the other gods, is that he believes he is protecting the first element of a three-part plan. In other words, he thinks he's ahead of the curve, and that if the relic does go missing, the thief would still need to collect Shar's essence and Mystryl's truename, giving him plenty of time to respond.
The other reason Helm's not talking, of course, is that he worries Shar herself might get behind such an attempt and that any divulging of the "secret" will almost certainly reach her at some point.
• Elminster and the others need to not be there
Abraxas can't get at the relic, but he's got friends in low places. Maybe another human element gets it out for him; maybe an uprising against the tight-lipped Helm opens the city and makes it easy to snatch up the relic. If that's not the case, though, then send in Dagon. A mad army of kuo-toa wielding the demonic powers of the Prince of the Depths invades the city and seizes the relic. Now the Tablet of Transgression can be completed. Helm admits to Mystra what he has been doing, and she hurriedly brings her Chosen to her realm in the Planes to save them from getting drained by the powers of the Tablet, which she cannot strike against as it contains the cheat codes to her very nature.
• We need a ritual to get Abraxas from the Abyss to Faerun
The shadowed cult of Abraxas hunts for the seven Faces of Madness, powerful and ancient magical masks designed to help anchor the Demon Prince of Talismans to the world in preparation for godhood. While he doesn't actually need to have all seven being worn during the ritual, they do all need to be found and attuned to him for the rite to function at all. If all seven are present when the ritual is enacted, he will come through with that much more power - but keeping any of them away will commensurately weaken him when he manifests.
• We need the gods to not interfere
This is where we switch to RAW. Abraxas, his plans having spanned almost 4000 years and his demonic hand upon the world casting its terrible shadow, is an elder evil, a member of a group of beings whose very existence and nature defies the gods' aspirations for their worlds. One of the properties of all elder evils is anathematic secrecy - Abraxas cannot be spied upon by any divine means, and the gods are not aware of his plans. He also has one other property related to the gods and their powers; abilities so detailed in the book include the ability to sever clerics from their gods; complete immunity to any divine magic; the ability to sicken and afflict all divine spellcasters within his sway; or the ability to poison the minds of clerics and cause madness. You could easily turn one of these toward arcane casters for thematic purposes.
More importantly, as an elder evil, Abraxas has a sign that warns the world of his coming. The power of his demonic essence, flowing through the Tablet of Transgression and the many talismans he is having distributed, is only magnified with each of the Faces of Madness that his cult awakens. As his anchor is more and more firmly set and the way made ready for his arrival, Abraxas's apocalyptic sign magnifies from faint to moderate to strong and finally to overwhelming levels. Again, this is all RAW.
Abraxas's sign is the Seal of Binding, a blasphemous glyph branded upon the sky itself. While it is faint, conjurations are more difficult and banishments automatically fail. As it becomes moderate, summoned creatures stop returning to their home planes and divine spellcasters find their abilities becoming slightly taxed. A strong sign is worrisome indeed, for teleportation becomes risky and clerics find their powers waning significantly as the link between Toril and the planes becomes strained. Finally, when Abraxas arrives and the sign becomes overwhelming, any form of interplanar travel to Toril fails and even communication with other planes will no longer work. Toril is silenced and cut off from its gods, hidden away by the magical incantation seared into the heavens by the Demon Prince of Talismans. With the Tablet of Transgression providing the one and only bridge in and out, Abraxas can provide the sole door to reach Toril... and it is located deep in the Abyss, where other demon lords might gain access to it and decide to come through themselves...
Example Campaign:
• The party comes to a city where the church of Helm is persecuting wizards. They are hired by an agent of the Church of Mystra to sneak in and figure out what's got Helm being so belligerent. They don't get any answers out of the temple, but they do come to realize that Helm's clergy started acting strange around the time that strange talismans began to spread around the city. They track the talismans to a malevolent trader through his peasant distribution network.
• Disturbed by the suspicious death of the talisman peddler, the party begins investigating those he was connected with, only to find that they need to hunt down his contacts outside the city - and the Helmites won't let anyone leave! The PCs befriend a Divine Trickster who helps them sneak into the inner sanctums of Helm's temple to acquire credentials they can use to leave the city and return as needed, and catch their first glimpse of the Moonmaiden's Grief. Unfortunately, sinister agents have also invaded the temple and the PCs must join forces with the priests of Helm to beat back the demonic henchmen and protect the relic.
• The party negotiates with the Church of Helm to be allowed to leave the city, as opposed to being imprisoned for trespassing. They find the trader's contacts and discover two worrying facts; first, that a Fiend of Possession was assisting the trader and is still at large, and secondly that a force of kuo-toa are planning to assault the city on behalf of the fiend's master, Dagon! The party returns to the city and finds it besieged, but when they are captured by monitors and brought before the leaders it is revealed that there are two factions of kuo-toa here, the orthodox faithful of Blibdoolpoolp and the heretic Dagon followers who are being manipulated by a masked elf. After the PCs prove themselves by defeating a Dagon-tainted abomination in a ruthless spectacle match for the High Whip, the kuo-toa let them into the city to hunt down the heretics and send a few allies along to escort them.
• Inside the flooded city, the warped kuo-toa of Dagon are rapidly descending into madness. The PCs navigate flooded streets, struggle with oozes and fungus, face off against an opportunistic aboleth and finally reach the temple sanctum, where they prevent the masked elf from stealing the Moonmaiden's Grief. Unfortunately, some of the tears of the moon goddess merge with the flood waters, and are collected by lurking minions of Dagon...
• As the sign in the sky grows stronger, the Chosen of Mystra withdraw from the world to protect their goddess from the Demon Prince of the Depths. A tip-off from Elminster before his departure gives the PCs clues about the mask the elf wore, leading them to discover records of the Faces of Madness in an ancient arcane tome. They seek out the owner of the Facade, an ambitious Red Wizard who is using its powers to control a dragon and an ogre army. Defeating him earns them the friendship of a powerful winged ally and saves a town from certain doom.
• An expert magical archaeologist has been referred to the PCs. The details of the two masks they have seen match with an obscure Imaskari bas-relief whose meaning had never before been clear. He shows them a reproduction of the image, which details seven masks around a portal covered in strange symbols. The following day, he is found dead, and a suspicious figure begins stalking the PCs, wearing a dull and faceless mask. This eerie individual casts the PCs into the Plane of Shadow, where they must overcome the alien and deadly predators of that place and make friends with a binder, a practitioner of strange and unknown magic who tells of masked men and the history of Karsus. Returning to their own world, the PCs discover the relic the archaeologist was killed for: an icon of Karsus containing the mysterious symbols from the bas-relief that are translated to "Abraxas."
• The Church of Helm offers to protect the masks the PCs have already collected. The clerics say the two artifacts are giving off demonic energies and urge the party to find any other masks they can before the demonic presence increases. Unable to divine anything, they refer to books that link Ynaerv's Mask to a Netherese contemporary of Karsus who escaped the fall of Netheril. Their search takes them through perilous reaches untrod since ancient times and into the hidden lair of the Netherese mage, now a lich and the owner of Ynaerv's mask. He tells them of the shadowy presence that aided and encouraged Karsus, and shows them the work that he has done tracking the various Faces of Madness over the years. However, it is revealed that the lich's ambition is to reunite the masks and call forth the demonic presence that fueled Karsus' powers for his own goals.
• The party finds the Master's Face only to discover that disaster has befallen not only the city where its wizard resides, but also the wearer of the mask himself. Its dreadful curse has fallen upon him, and due to the Seal of Binding none of the fiends he has summoned are vanishing at the end of his spells' duration. Now the demons have seized him and are using him as their plaything. The PCs rescue the cursed wizard and are able to extract from him the secrets of Abraxas; however, the demons have taken the Master's Face as their prize and returned to the Abyss. One of them leaves a message to the party from Dagon, Prince of the Depths.
• The PCs descend into the Abyssal realm of Dagon, where they fear treachery as his minions hunt them for sport through the nightmarish underwater caverns. Upon reaching the throne room, however, Dagon reveals that he has invited them there with an offer that will undermine Abraxas. Thousands of years ago, Dagon agreed to aid Abraxas in his apotheosis if Abraxas would in turn bring the Prince of the Depths his long-lost Deadwater Trident, which has been cursed so that Dagon can neither see it nor touch it until it is returned to his layer of the Abyss. Dagon refuses to explain why he craves the Trident, only that it is not within his own power to retrieve due to a curse laid by celestials. If the PCs agree to retrieve it for him, they will undertake a deadly aquatic adventure into a city of devilish manta creatures deep below the waves. Once they return the Trident to Dagon, he gifts them with Abraxas' weakness - a talisman made of the demon lord's own heart, on which are etched the words that can banish him. Unfortunately, their timing could not be worse, for the Seal has reached overwhelming strength and Abraxas has entered Faerun.
• With the aid of Dagon, the PCs travel to the seventeenth layer and overcome Abraxas' guards, using the Tablet of Transgression to break through the Seal of Binding and reenter Faerun. Abraxas is absorbed in his process of apotheosis and sends cultists wearing the Faces of Madness alongside his demonic escort to protect himself. The wearer of the mask of aberration guards the ruinous altar where Abraxas is absorbing faith from the despairing peoples of the Realms, creating monstrosities with its powers to guard his master. At the altar itself, Abraxas is joined by obyrith servitors and the diviner wearing the Mask of Shum, who is the leader of the cult and has been behind every effort against the party.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 11:06:39
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Fight against the god nonsense. It spoils good storytelling because inevitably someone says "the gods wouldn't allow this".
It's not nonsense when you know the gods are active. It's not good storytelling to have gods act out of character, or to somehow have a hundred deities not notice a minor little thing like all of their followers disappearing at once. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 10:32:42
Well since you don't have ao in your game perhaps you also don't subscribe to the gods are all powerful prepubescent children that wander around faerun interfering in all aspects of life.
If so then up until 3e the gods never took any direct action in toril at all, it was all through mortal or outsider servants or int the most extreme of circumstances -an avatar.
One could conclude that up until 3e (when things started to get silly) that a metaphysical being made up of ideas and belief was incapable of direct action. Furthermore the gods were not all powerful or all knowing and often got it wrong.
Demon princes on the other hand are physical beings so they can wander toril in person (although being banished for 666 years is a big downside if things go wrong).
So have toril pulled into the abyss by a freak planar conjunction (once in a 1000 year event, alignment of planets etc). The forces of good fail to stop it and toril is now merged with the abyss (the hidden layer seems a good place since it is already partly merged). The gods didn't stop it simply because they didn't know or they were too busy bickering among themselves like spoiled brats to notice what was happening.
The process is not complete and can be undone at the next planar injunction. Gods cannot wander around like supermen, but can still do what gods can which is send avatars and servants etc. the problem is that the population is now much less and less of those people believe in the gods (because all this terrible stuff happened) so the avatars and the servants are less powerful than before and so it gives the heroes more of a chance in the spotlight.
Fight against the god nonsense. It spoils good storytelling because inevitably someone says "the gods wouldn't allow this".
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| Owesstaer |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 09:28:36
Things you should consider are that, not the whole pantheon might oppose to drawing Toril into the abyss. Some of the Realms' powers live their, and I take it that they would be more than willing to assist Orcus (You already mentioned Lolth for instance!). From another point of view, their is a certain god of destruction, Talos, who I guess wouldn't be really opposed to an apocalypse.
Also as Orcus has com back from the dead, he could "raise" other dead powers in the same way (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul)
So I'd say, there's more than enough godly material around to even the odds.
The "good" side could get unexpected reinforcements too however: Would the devils from the nine hells sit by idly as their archenemies' abyssal army gains quite a nice boost in manpower?
Another option might be, basing the plot on the way the Imaskari handled it: getting slaves from "outside" but locking out their goods.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 02:59:39
I don't see a way it could happen without neutralizing all of the gods active on Toril, which includes many transpheric powers, and Ao as well. That's why I advocate for the smaller approach -- it doesn't have to start with such a huge deus ex machina.
Orcus has been killed in the past, in canon. There's no way, even with the home field advantage, that he can stand up to a single pantheon, much less every single one of them.
And if he was that powerful, what hope would mere mortals have? If mortals can't kill a god without divine assistance, how could they take on someone who took on all the gods?
Honestly, if you're set on the apocalyptic-horror thing, it'd be easier to do a homebrew setting, rather than trying to force the Realms into a mold it simply wasn't designed to fit.
You might be able to do something like this with Ravenloft, since there you don't have to worry about the actions of a hundred or so deities. |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 02:26:25
The concept would be that Orcus, in Thanatos is more powerful than any gods since it is his home plane. So if he brings Toril to Thanatos, even the gods would not be able to match him.
Now, it may be that by FR canon the idea simply can't work... that the gods are just too powerful and would never let such an event occur. In which case I'm willing to abandon any aspects of canon that stand in the way (but would prefer to keep as much as possible). Also, I don't really see a huge war between gods and demon princes, as demon princes don't tend to work together in large groups.
My concept here is essentially an alternate reality apocalyptic-horror version of Toril. If there was a battle between the forces of good and evil, it is long over. The bad guys (Orcus) won. Toril is in ruins. The gods may or may not have any presence, but they are powerless to reverse what has occurred.
So, with this setting in mind -- how could it happen? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 00:57:30
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Interesting. But I'm going for something truly apocalyptic... sort of like the more recent x-men movie where everything has already gone to ****. And I don't want anyone to even question whether the gods are going to just step in and save everything (Ao isn't in my game, so no worries there).
I do somewhat like the idea that Toril hasn't been *completely* absorbed into the Abyss yet though. Gives some hope that the process can still be stopped. But then the issue of the gods comes right back up. If Toril is already in the Abyss, that gives plausibility that the gods can no longer fully interfere.
Why wouldn't they be able to interfere? Toril is still their territory, and Elminster in Hell gives us a precedent for deities charging into the Lower Planes to protect their interests.
The idea of mortals trying to break down the planar barriers keeps things solely in the mortal realm: at most, the gods can send in their particular servants. And as things get worse, they certainly would. When all stands on the brink of ruin, then you could have bands of clerics and units of archons and all that assisting in the final battle.
Keep in mind, direct action by deities is a huge escalation, and will be answered by the other side. If the gods directly show up, then the demon lords will, as well -- and vice versa. Neither side is going to go that far unless absolutely necessary. |
| valarmorgulis |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 23:36:55
Interesting. But I'm going for something truly apocalyptic... sort of like the more recent x-men movie where everything has already gone to ****. And I don't want anyone to even question whether the gods are going to just step in and save everything (Ao isn't in my game, so no worries there).
I do somewhat like the idea that Toril hasn't been *completely* absorbed into the Abyss yet though. Gives some hope that the process can still be stopped. But then the issue of the gods comes right back up. If Toril is already in the Abyss, that gives plausibility that the gods can no longer fully interfere. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 17:16:48
Regardless of how powerful a single deity is, this is something that would draw the attention of pretty much every single deity, and possibly Ao himself.
I'd spin it a different way. Instead of pulling an entire planet into another plane (which would require magic on a scale never before seen in the Realms), I'd instead focus on breaking down the planar barriers between the Realms and the Abyss.
You can start small, with local groups of cultists doing summonings, and scale it up from there... Maybe, as the cultists work towards this goal, small pockets of land start becoming more Abyss-like, and fiendish encounters and corruption start popping up all over. As it gets closer to the finale, these pockets of land get bigger and more frequent, until entire miles of landscape are practically indistinguishable from the Abyss -- except for the very frightened locals, of course. The final battle has the PCs waiting through hordes of summoned fiends and cultists to stop the cult leaders from completing the ritual that will fully sunder that barrier.
The Narfell area is the obvious choice from this, and the Nar Demonbinder PrC (3.5) would be equally obvious for one or more of the bad guys. |
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