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T O P I C    R E V I E W
dazzlerdal Posted - 13 Nov 2013 : 11:56:52
Well onto my next project of fleshing out little detailed areas.

Thar.

I'm looking for all the information that exists on Thar so that i can define its history more consistently.

At the moment there appear to have been two kingdoms that ruled Thar.
The first an ogre kingdom founded by Vorbyx and ruled by a Tharkul who may or may not have been an Oni. This kingdom destroyed Northkeep and had a large capital city with floating bridges that has now disappeared.
The ogre kingdom ended 1000 years ago (even though the last Tharkul Maulog was killed in 1288DR which led to the founding of Glister and the human kingdom of Thar (slight inconsitency but nothing that cannot be explained away).

Then after the fall of the ogre kingdom, an orc kingdom appeared.
Its overking Ologh was slain by a dragon called Iyrauroth (who has some draconic orc children whose progeny survive today) in 572 DR.
This may or may not have signalled the end of the orc kingdom.

So any ideas to explain the inconsistency with the ogre kingdom (it falling 1000 years ago and yet its last king was slain 70 years ago). I favour the simplest solution in that a powerful tribe survived after the fall of the kingdom that kept Vorbyx's hammer and declared its chieftain Tharkul. When Maulog was slain the hammer was lost and so no one can be legally (if such a term exists for ogres) called Tharkul.

Where was this fabled ogre capital. In the centre of Thar is a lake (according to the elminsters ecologies map) and a hill range which is home to Fangjaw Hold (according to a 4th edition map - maybe in a dragon magazine). I'm wondering if the capital isnt buried in one of those. If it had floating bridges that could mean either they were magic and floated on air, or that they literally floated on the water and it now lies at the bottom of the lake.

How did the ogre kingdom end. There are some hints that it was ended by dragons. This may have coincided with them stirring up the dragons to attack Northkeep. Maybe they woke up Iyrauroth and he was responsible for the end of the ogre kingdom, then after a 2 centuries of sleep he killed the orc overking as well and ended that kingdom.

Anyways, any lore or ideas will be most helpful. This area looks to be pivotal in the development of the Moonsea and actually had a significant effect on Cormanthor as well so it would be nice to get some more detail about it.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Markustay Posted - 13 Sep 2017 : 23:49:11
Personally, I would pull 'mankind' out of the original list and replace them with an insectoid race (like, perhaps, the spellweavers).

Humans can go with giants and dragons - 'secondary creators'. I'd say elves as well, but elves are already a creation themselves (of the Fey).
dazzlerdal Posted - 13 Sep 2017 : 07:26:13
Well the spellweavers havent been in the region for 30000 years, what is left is a degenerate hybrid version. Plus the moonsea is little with ancient places of power built by magic powerful races that vanished. We could use the creator races line again and again or maybe its time for something different.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 22:16:02
Thanks Tom!!!

Now I'm stuck on 'Bone Tower' - so much stuff appeared on maps of that region that didn't get any info. Anyone have a link to the old Thar article written by Rich Baker? The old link (back on pg.3, I think) is dead now. I have the map, just not the article. My Google-Fu isn't working so well* (I know there is at least one archive of old articles somewhere).

And I am surprised no-one's ever tried to connect the region to Tharizdun. Of course, he hasn't had a lot of realms 'face time' until recently. Spellweavers just feel wrong for the region, but then again, so do Thr-Kreen. Maybe Spellweavers are a highly-evolved (from the future?) form of Thri-kreen? And we have ogres, some sahuagin, and even an orc or three with four arms... seems the spellweavers were trying to do the 'Creator Race' thing themselves. Maybe they view 'four arms' (six appendages) as 'the perfect form', and anything less offensive (an unevolved animal).


*Ha ha! Got it! " The Google-Fu is strong in this one".
You'll have to C&P, because its the kind of link CK hates - https://web.archive.org/web/20130531140238/http://www.wizards.com/DND/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071217a
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 22:12:06
I think the citadel you want is in the ruins of zhentil keep boxed set. Its an old fortress used sometime when zhentil keep was named flostrens hold and was the site of a battle where some wizards got fried.

Iyrauroth and manshoom have a connection through the cult of the dragon i think. Manshoon influenced the formation of that mini flight of dragons in the moonsea and dalelands. Iyrauroth undoubtedly provided quite a few dragons to it. He is in command of more than a few younger dragons and he is not above thinning their ranks periodically to maintain his position (as the attack on northkeep shows).

I wouldnt be surprised if iyrauroth and manshoon were playing a game of chess of sorts for control of the moonsea.
TomCosta Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:41:21
I sent out Bestiaries 1 and 2 and Prestige in the Realms.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:24:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



Iyrauroth rather predates Manshoon. Cult of the Dragon has Iyrauroth active in 572 DR; Manshoon was born in 1229 DR.

Manshoon's fallen mount was Orlgaun. I don't think we have much info about him, other than Manshoon rode him and he died due to wounds taking fighting Shandril Shessair.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 21:06:43
I'm still trying to figure out what Citadel Ankhalus is from; thats what got me started with re-reading this thread.

BTW, Manshoon used to ride a Huge Black dragon - I forget its name* (its in Spellfire). I'm thinking it may have been related to Iyrauroth. He seemed pretty damned upset when it got toasted.

Hmmmmm... you don't suppose Manshoon IS Iyrauroth?



*I just checked - its name was Orlgaun. Probably short for something with WAY too many letters.
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 19:47:50
Not sure if i did the newer timeline or not. Everything i do evolves with each region so its different now after doing netheril.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 19:43:52
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I have copies of the forging the realms articles and the bestiaries one and two so i will email them over if I can find your address.
Markustay2012@hotmail.com

And thanks



P.S. - so you never did a newer version of the timeline? Or did I just miss it somehow? Anyhow, hopefully a new map of the region will get everyone (including you) excited again - there is SO MUCH on so many different maps; once I start combining it all its going to be almost as crowded as Cormyr!
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 19:31:39
Wow, that was a long time ago.

So answering your questions.

Who is Iyrauroth. Well Iyrauroth is a black dragon that lives in the Thar region somewhere. He gets a few mentions in the histories involving the orc kingdom of thar. I threw together all the mentions of Thar into one word document and started to notice ancient black dragons all over the place interfering in politics in Thar (and the Vast).
So i connected a lot of dots and either i hit the nail on the head or i managed to link my brain to Eds because shortly after two forging the realms articles were released which supported just about everything i thought.

Iyrauroth struck a bargain with the ogres of Thar to bring down Northkeep. The ogre kingdom of Thar failed and so he reestablished it using half orc half ogres he had bred from the genetics of the line of ogre kings. He helped the orcs of Thar and Vastar reunite and used them to get hold of the Annasherion (look in ravens bluff for that one) to power an uber ritual to make him a super dragon. Unfortinately when he demanded payment of ogre thars debts Ologh refused and a massive fight occured between orc king and dragon which the orc king lost but the dragon never got the annasherion (it ended up beneath ravens bluff). I wrote up a big article on Iyrauroth in one of my alternate realms articles (issue 1 2 or 3 i think).
Iyrauroth is one dangerous mother, not only for his power, but also because no one has ever heard about him.


I have copies of the forging the realms articles and the bestiaries one and two so i will email them over if i can find your address.

As for the thri kreen, i did settle on what i think they are after i was working on netheril and george came up with that awesome jergal article. The thri kreen of horreb are not thri kreen at all they are a fusion of humans with the essence of soellweavers in a horrible accident that created a new insectoid race which looks like thri kreen (and we all know what happens when something looks similar - it gets stereotyped).
There are pyramids across the north. They are spellweaver nodes. There is one in the monument of the ancients, one on sorcerers isle in the moonsea, one in thunderholme, and some in ascore. The nodes in the moonsea were outcast spellweavers and they used the nodes to imprison powerful beings and draw the energy from them (why do you think Maram was there). The big spellweaver conjunction broke all that and the spell weavers in sorcerers isle got trapped in an ethereal prison. They took to possessing humans (their former slaves) and this worked for a long time until karsus broke the weave and they all got stuck as human spellweaver hybrids. They still had all the civilisation of before but tyranthraxus and his armies shattered that and eventually the people degenerated into barbaric thrikreen like people.
At least thats how i spin it. It ties up a few loose ends without involving civilisations on the other side of the world (which i dont like doing)

No idea about the Vane or the People of the Black Sails. I suspect (or vaguely recall) that the Vane may have been a tribe of barbarian peoples from The Ride in which case they are likely a mix of Rengarth, Low Netherese (yes i distinguish the two) and the people that lived there all along.


I love going on about Thar. It was my first alternate realms project and is soooo interesting i could talk about it all day, plus it ties in nicely to Netheril which i love just as much).

As for elder ogres. I peg them as unique individuals (i forget the guys name who founded ogre thar) that managed to escape Annams curse somehow. He bred with the ogres already there to make something more than a normal ogre, but not much more. The oni i peg as having arrived later. I think the oni come from Storms band in the Hidden Valley in Netheril which i made as half demon half ogres bred by a feyri clan of siluvanede sent to destroy netheril for stealing the artifacts present in the last dlardrageth armoury that Finder plundered millennia before. Its a long story but i like distant consequences to events.


Give me a few hours and ill email you what ive got on thar. Not much geographical and a lot termed homebrew (and its my early work so less polished than the drivel i produce now), but you can take what you will from it.
Markustay Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 18:40:52
I LOVE this scroll.
I went looking for info on Citadel Ankhalus (which you mentioned in your timeline), and found so much more, I'm mapping Thar right now (not that I wanted to, but if I don't get this highly-convoluted and ever-changing region 'just right', it will never line-up correctly with the north shore of the Moonsea, which IS on my current map). Anyhow, I did a really fast speed-read through it, so maybe I missed it, but there is someone you mention over and over again - Iyrauroth - who is that?

Also, Dazzler, you mentioned that timeline was your 'rough one', and that you'd post the refined one later. Did you ever get around to doing that? Also, we never really got anywhere with the thri-Kreen stuff - it was just sort of dropped.

Anyhow, that one mention of Citadel Ankhalus - is that canon? Where is that from? It falls out in the same spot as 'Vaprak's hammer' (which I believe is an Ogre tribe) on another map, and I was trying to figure-out if there as any relation.

I really need to pull Brian James into this - there are several things on the map for the Thar/Moonsea area that were not mentioned in MotA.

Also, I don't know if you missed it, but in something you quoted you may have found yet-another Thar/Moonsea kingdom - "conquered the Horreb and The Vane". Who were 'The Vane'? Could that have been the name of 'the People of the Black Sails'? (and I am thinking probably something along a coastal citystate thats now long gone.)

Also, you mention one or two articles by Ed (Forging the Realms, I think) - any chance you have copies or links to those?

Lastly, does anyone have links (anymore) to those bestiaries by Tom and Eric? I used to have them a long time ago, but I never got a chance to re-download them. Of course, RAS re-purposed the Orog name (I think) to be a type of half-fiend Orc, so there's that (which may possibly help us, depending on who Iyrauroth is). However, if those orcs bred with Ogre-Magi (which are ALSO now half-fiends), that could be very easy to mesh together. I am fascinated by the idea the ogres were once smarter and more culturally sophisticated than they are now. In the south I just assumed they had been breeding with hill giants for years (bigger and dumber ogres), but apparently there may be some curse or other outside agency involved with the northern ogres. I NEED to know more about these 'Elder Ogres'!
The Emerald Sage Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 20:45:12
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well Thar is actually located in the moonsea region or just north of it but I'm glad you are finding this stuff useful, it was fun researching everything and figuring it out



That's sort of what I meant, it's a little intimidating appreciating just how much information there is out there. The western heartlands held the most interest for me down through the years and yet I'm still uncovering new details concerning that country.

As regards Thar I really like the details concerning the half-orc dragon brood, the ogre chieftains and so on. And yes, it stands to reason that the area was victim to the destruction brought on by a Rage of Dragons or some such event at some point in the past.

Kudos anyway!
dazzlerdal Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 12:31:57
Well Thar is actually located in the moonsea region or just north of it but I'm glad you are finding this stuff useful, it was fun researching everything and figuring it out
The Emerald Sage Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 11:24:59
This is all great fodder for adventures in the realms and I still feel like I'm only getting to know the Western Heartlands!
perlmugp Posted - 01 Jan 2016 : 04:03:13
I agree scenario 2 makes the most since. I don't think it's a mistake because the sidebar takes the form of a quote from a bard in 1299 DR so it doesn't make that he'd be referring to the end of the human kingdom 4 years in the future, so scenario 1 is out. And the other earlier kingdoms all ended much too long ago to be what he's referring to, so scenario 3 is out.

There is a hint to the remnants of those earlier kingdoms, or at least some other human presence, being in Thar after their respective falls. Journal Entry 15 from the end of the Monument of the Ancients mentions that when Phlan was founded they traded with "primitive human tribes of Thar". Maybe those tribes continued in Thar for long enough to be known or remembered by a bard in 1299 DR.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I've had a look over my collected notes and thoughts and here is what I'm thinking.

1 - The sidebar is a mistake. The human kingdom of Thar was in 1288 DR and it was destroyed in 1303 DR. The sidebar was referring to the human kingdom but the dating was slightly amiss.

2 - The sidebar is referring to a human presence that hasn't been mentioned thus far. The human kingdom of Thar was forged from something. It is likely that Beldoran hired a bunch of mercenaries (I think with Zhent gold, and gold from other Moonsea cities), but the people that formed the human kingdom of Thar were already there, bootleggers, prospecters, small farmsteaders, etc. Glister exists as a sort of nomadic settlement that has been present in many places across Thar (which is why it survived). It is likely the people in Thar were the remains of Barze, Horreb, and barbarians from the Ride.
To support this a humanoid horde swept out of Thar in 1270 DR and destroyed Hulberg and Sulasspryn which prompted the later occupation of the citadel. The humanoid horde likely evicted any human settlement in Thar (temporarily) and it is my personal theory that Manshoon aided the creation of the horde to get the Moonsea to cooperate and rebuild the citadel. In this scenario the humanoids and humans lived side by side (with lots of fighting and raiding) in the region but not in any organised kingdom until the humanoids rose up and killed or drove away the humans


3 - The sidebar is referring (inarticulately) to the last human kingdoms that existed in the region that would later be known as Thar (Barze, Horreb, Varm, etc) which were destroyed and the land then occupied by ogres (the beastmen) and their orc servants.


My personal preference I think is for scenario 2 as it is most supported by dates recent to 1276 DR.

dazzlerdal Posted - 31 Dec 2015 : 20:31:38
Well I've had a look over my collected notes and thoughts and here is what I'm thinking.

1 - The sidebar is a mistake. The human kingdom of Thar was in 1288 DR and it was destroyed in 1303 DR. The sidebar was referring to the human kingdom but the dating was slightly amiss.

2 - The sidebar is referring to a human presence that hasn't been mentioned thus far. The human kingdom of Thar was forged from something. It is likely that Beldoran hired a bunch of mercenaries (I think with Zhent gold, and gold from other Moonsea cities), but the people that formed the human kingdom of Thar were already there, bootleggers, prospecters, small farmsteaders, etc. Glister exists as a sort of nomadic settlement that has been present in many places across Thar (which is why it survived). It is likely the people in Thar were the remains of Barze, Horreb, and barbarians from the Ride.
To support this a humanoid horde swept out of Thar in 1270 DR and destroyed Hulberg and Sulasspryn which prompted the later occupation of the citadel. The humanoid horde likely evicted any human settlement in Thar (temporarily) and it is my personal theory that Manshoon aided the creation of the horde to get the Moonsea to cooperate and rebuild the citadel. In this scenario the humanoids and humans lived side by side (with lots of fighting and raiding) in the region but not in any organised kingdom until the humanoids rose up and killed or drove away the humans


3 - The sidebar is referring (inarticulately) to the last human kingdoms that existed in the region that would later be known as Thar (Barze, Horreb, Varm, etc) which were destroyed and the land then occupied by ogres (the beastmen) and their orc servants.


My personal preference I think is for scenario 2 as it is most supported by dates recent to 1276 DR.
dazzlerdal Posted - 31 Dec 2015 : 06:45:38
Well you might have come across something I missed. Ill have a look and see what I can find
perlmugp Posted - 31 Dec 2015 : 03:18:16
I think the human kingdom of Thar was founded in 1288 DR by Beldoran, after the retaking of the Citadel of the Raven (1276 DR) so this sidebar must be referring to something else.
George Krashos Posted - 31 Dec 2015 : 01:58:36
There was a human kingdom of Thar that eventually fell to the humanoids. Its first mention was in the timeline provided in the 2E boxed set. More info can be found in Elminster's Ecologies and soime posts by Ed here at the 'Keep.

-- George Krashos
perlmugp Posted - 30 Dec 2015 : 16:47:13
On page 130 of the Grand History of the Realms there is a sidebar that is referring to the rebuilding of the Citadel of the Rave in 1276 DR that reads "Its refounding was long overdue. The “beast men” (ogres) and their orc hirelings had retaken Thar from failing human
hands and were raiding human steadings and travelers at will everywhere north of the Moonsea."

Any Idea what humans would have been in Thar pre 1276 DR to have the ogres and orcs take Thar away from them. The only ones I can think of are the wizards in Citadel Ankhalas (sp?)
dazzlerdal Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 10:03:31
And last of all I did a write up for iyrauroth in issue 1 of my alternate realms project so it included bits of my ideas for thar as well
dazzlerdal Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 09:46:08
I could have sworn I did another thread on thar that mirrors this one. Not helpful I know but I'm not very organised.

Also for those tyranthraxus nuts, I think I finally figured out who/what he is. The answer lies in a single post by ed greenwood about the trio nefarious. Their membership rota is most illuminating, as is the magical items they possess which were given to them by their master (who I think is stated as being malkizid somewhere). It's too good to be a coincidence so I used it for my netheril rewrite.

50 points to whoever finds the post and puts it here (because I can't remember which year I saw it).
dazzlerdal Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 08:11:13
Well this was one of the precursors to my alternate dimensions project so I might one day come back and revisit thar and do a sourcebook style article on it. It just depends on how much free time I have with my new job as to whether I will ever do so. I wouldn't count on it being annotated with sources though unless anyone wants to volunteer for the job (I find that bit really dull so I just don't do it).

Netheril first though, I will finish that if it kills me.
perlmugp Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 04:53:58
This is a crazy thread, it has the makings of a sourcebook on Thar. It would be nice to see this all consolidated into one organized article with mention of what is canon and what is conjecture.

I'm pretty sure Lake Longreach is just north north west of Thar. It's on the map in the Monument of the Ancients from Dungeon mag.
dazzlerdal Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 11:26:35
And i have just read through the villains lorebook and came to a section about Tyranthraxus

quote:
Tyranthraxus is seemingly unique in the history of the Realms. How he came to be a disembodied entity, whether he's always existed in that form, and even the plane of existence that he calls home is unknown.


Then there is another quote which looks to be the first reference of him as a possessing spirit, not as his original form.

quote:
The first mention of the Possessing Spirit is from the ancient legends of the ogres of Thar.


So this peaked my interest in Tyranthraxus again and i went digging into the article about the Dark Three and the Moonsea

So first quote from that article

quote:
At this time there ruling the Twisted Ones was a powerful general named Tyranthraxus. He strode before his armies cloaked in flame and led the Riders out of the Waste. At his hand the kingdom of Barze was conquered. Turning south he led his army to conquer the Horreb and the Vane. Tyranthraxus was a cruel man and leveled all that he had taken, murdering the princes of these lands. But the flame that surrounded him consumed him, destroying his body. Freed of its shell, it flew among the men of his army, lighting on each and claiming it. It was then when Baron Schodt imprisoned Tyranthraxus in a vial of water which shone like the light of day. This he sank in the watery depths of Lake Longreach, thus defeating the armies Tyranthraxus had raised.


So we have a reference to him becoming the dispossessing spirit which proves he was a solid being at one point (probably a primordial but not important).

The above quote gives no indication to a time reference between the conquering of Barze, Horreb, and Vane and i at first assumed the two events were connected but there could be years, decades, or even centuries between his conquering the kingdoms and being consumed by the fire.

Next quote

quote:
The city Phlan fell long ago to the unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us all.


Of course Phlan was founded in 367 DR by elves, humans, and dwarves, and at this time Thar also existed (and i personally think the Quivering Forest was created to prevent Thar expanding and threatening Cormanthor.

And finally from the article about Ironfang Keep we know that Edranka was killed and his goblin army was destroyed in the year -350 DR.



So i reckon that in light of the new lore provided by Ed about Embrurshaile and how it drained magic, life etc. I wonder if Tyranthraxus was not caught up in it somehow and turned into the possessing spirit by it.


So -356 DR Tyranthraxus conquers Barze, Horreb and Vane. He then moves on down towards the primitive human settlement that will later become Phlan (there is always a precursor settlement before the big city). This occurs sometime between -356 and -350.

Obviously they build up large armies and prepare to sweep along the Moonsea, kill off the humans that have settled in the cleared lands conquer Grong Haarp and create a rather large Moonsea Empire.

Now maybe the death of Tyranthraxus and the ritual Embrurshaile performed occured between -356 DR and -350 DR (there is no reason why it couldnt, it just means Embrurshaile would have had to be more cautious of the empire of Netheril and she might have had to spent a bit of time gathering the magic necessary).

Tyranthraxus is drained of most of his magic (he would probably have been on the very edge of the area of Embrurshaile's spell so he isnt killed) and his flaming body disintegrates. Thankfully he was in Phlan at the time and he is drawn into the Pool of Radiance that is hidden in the city.

He is now the possessing spirit and plagues the area for many more years (including Thar) before Baron Schodt (whoever he is) imprisons him in that vial and chucks him into the Lake Longreach (wherever that is).

Because Tyranthraxus is essentially dead and gone (or so Edranka and Tolath think. Edranka leads his goblin army as the "former" general of Tyranthraxus to Grong Haarp and dies fighting Hargut

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