| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 22:05:43
I've been reading up more on this and have had a lot of thoughts in how they're depicted.
First off, Zakhara is pretty vast, so like the real Middle East it would make a sense for there to be a lot of Ethnic groups. Given Calimshan was populated by people randomly plucked from across Zakhara by the Djinn, it seems to be there are likely a lot of human ethnic groups there, in a relatively small country(compared to Zakhara). This doesn't seem to be something that's touched on much(that level of world building is difficult regardless).
The real world "Middle East" contains many different cultures; from Egypt to Iran. While it's the most common ethnic group(and quite a broad one in of itself) "Arab" is not the only ethnic group.
In the Al Qadim sources it seems to touch on the idea that Zakhara is a "melting pot" but pushes the idea that there is a degree of harmony among the races(as long as they're native to the land and "enlightened") which I suppose makes it come across as a more idealised albiet snobbish version of the real middle east.
While Kara-Tur seems fairly reasonably divided into rough real world proxies of the Far East, I'm not sure Al Qadim makes the same distinctions. Of course it's always going to be difficult to do this accurately, especially without literally copy/pasting the real world middle east but it would be nice to see some clear cut distinctions.
Our GM was thinking of using Calimshan as a Persia/Iran sort of proxy but it doesn't really work like that. It's language seems to be closely related to Midani(and both seem to be represented by a very Arabic-like language), coming from the elemental planes, as opposed to having a language related to an Indo-European proxy(Ruamathari?)
I'm always wary of course of westerners approaching fantasy versions of other cultures, but the problem if you don't do it is that you're left with just yet more fantasy europe. So I'm really interested in a version of Al-Qadim, Calminshan etc. that is "realistic" - but "realistic" to a fantasy version of the Muslim world/middle east rather than just a copy and paste. It's hard to do but I think it can be done with some tweaking. I think Wizards took the easy route by nuking Mulhollorand, Maztica, Unther etc. instead of just getting in consultants and designers from different cultures to help out. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Oct 2015 : 18:56:22
The thing about the evil cults of Faerun is that several of them seem to be pretty open about being the baddies.
A Banite is supposed to stir up strife and promote tyranny, right?
So we aren't looking at a religion that is in itself good, but which has in various times and places been abused or twisted by corrupt human beings to serve selfish ends. We are looking at something that was dedicated to the service of an evil power from the start (with Bane, or several of the other unambiguously evil gods).
YMMV
I don't think anything in the real world looks much like Bane's cult, but I suppose certain political pseudo-religions of the 19th and 20th Century could serve as inspiration. Add in some Satanism.
It's not a pretty combination.
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 04 Oct 2015 : 16:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Cyrinishad, if you were trying to create an example of how offensive it would be for a game designer to interject a real world religion into a game and the pratfalls that may happen when asserting overly broad and/or poorly researched points, then "bravo" for nailing this one. Otherwise, "Bane = Inquisition Christianity" is a poorly contrived allegory that is probably meant to bait Christians into an argument instead of doing anything to improve the quality of game play or enrich the storied setting.
Regardless of the overall tone of your post... The first sentence of this quote highlights what I was driving at with my Bane comparison. It's not possible to have an exact real-world equivalency, at best you get a caricature or exaggeration of a single aspect. Lathander & Ilmater have parallels to the positive elements of Christianity, I suppose I could have used either of them as my initial example... or I could have just thrown out the "Helm = Spanish Conquistador" comparison about how he functions in Maztica...
Regarding the second sentence of this quote, the only thing my posts are "probably meant" to do is encourage creativity and discussion in our community. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 15:44:14
I'd say check out Durpar as depicted in the Desert of Desolation megamodule.
In that module, the men of Durpar follow a monotheistic (or at least it is a form of monolatry) religion centered on Anu. I've sold my copy of the megamodule, so I can't check, but think the religion also included a prohibition on making images of Anu and a rule against strong drink.
And the Durparis are ruled by a sultan (or was he a caliph? I forget).
|
| Roseweave |
Posted - 29 Sep 2015 : 22:13:45
quote:
Originally posted by Gurgle Gobblespit
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I've read that Calimshan was influenced by Turkey.
Yes, I also read this from some source… not sure if it was the FR Wiki or maybe some older D&D Supplement. From what I remember, the reference was that TSR's Al-Qadim was rolled into FR Zakhara, which is equivalent to the Arabian lands (plus Damascus, Baghdad, some parts of Persia etc) of the Arabian Nights.
Meanwhile, the distant Calimshan in SW Faerun is more the cultural equivalent of Turkey (early Ottoman Empire). Historically, many nobles and military officers of the Ottoman Empire were indeed called Pashas.
My current dilemma is in trying to make sense of Calimshan's recent history (since I am most likely to use Calimshan because of its very close proximity to the Sword Coast). After the Spellplague, Calimshan is a hot mess, as the Djinn-blooded genasi rose up to become the ruling people of the land. So what happened to the "regular humans"? I could only imagine that the humans were enslaved, or possibly exiled into the desert badlands (much like wandering bedouins). Calimshan culture, after all, has a loooong history of institutionalized slavery.
OP: and to the OP, I noticed you mention that your GM uses Calimshan as a Persia equivalent. IMHO that works too. Medieval Persia actually had a lot of cultural ties and closeness to early Ottoman Turkey. I'm a military history fan myself. And I do remember that the medieval Safavid Persia was originally established on top of a crumbling Turkoman nation called the White Sheep Turks. And the first Shah of the Medieval Safavid empire Shah Ismail was neither a Persian or Turk, he was technically a mixed Kurdish-Azerbaijani…. Kurds and Azerbaijanis are actually a "minority people" among Turks and Persians.
And so the early Ottoman Empire had frequent border clashes with Safavid Persia, if only because there was a huge border area between them (mostly the Kurdish, Azerbaijani, Armenian, and Georgian regions) that each empire claimed as "rightly theirs".
So using FR Calimshan as a region of Turko-Persian flavor does work quite well.
Real life Ottomans had quite a bit of Persian influence, for obvious reasons, and arab territories were a part of it. So that makes about the most sense. Some African too. Probably a decent explanation for why it's a bit of a mash up. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 29 Sep 2015 : 22:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Actually, I have a question regarding this thread that is open to anyone to answer, not just the OP. How can anything in the Forgotten Realms have a Muslim proxy? That would be like requesting a Judeo or a Christian proxy. A monotheic religion, and the practices that allow a single-god faith to flourish, cannot withstand the very real presence of a multitude of gods and horrific beings that are stronger than the gods. So how can there be a Muslim equivalent if the very forces and events that propelled Islam in the real world are either absent or run counter to the progress of an equivalent to Islam in the Forgotten Realms?
Most of the Forgotten Realms religions do the things they do because there is a god walking about saying "Listen up, Mortal! This is how you properly worship me." And then these gods have specifically limited powers and stats. How well do you think that would be received by the pious worshippers of the Almighty to have a derivative of their god mocked up in a game and Nerfed in their diminished abilities to what is, for all intents and purposes, a pathetic mockery of their glory? I don't know about anyone else but that sounds patronizing to me and would seem like a PR nightmare for TSR/WotC. Also, wouldn't this unique setting have an equally unique way for the cultures to evolve in accordance with the conditions of the Forgotten Realms as opposed to having to shoe-horn in the real world equivalents?
The difference is that they clearly use a lot of Muslims concepts by different names, and a lot of Muslim terminology outright. "Caliph" is a Muslim term. The Loregiver is obviously a female Muhammad(PBUH).
The one thing that really breaks it is that Al-Qadim is very polytheistic. However, it seems like followers of the religion must hold Fate above all else, which is consistent with Islam and Monotheistic religions holding the monotheistic God above all else. It's quite possible that people in Al-Qadim don't really see Gods as Gods and things like Idol Worship have never been much of an issue in terms of that, when there's the likes of actual Devil worshippers to crack down on.
Again, it's a proxy of Islam, just as many fantasy worlds have proxies of Christianity and the like. Not a copy and paste. |
| Gurgle Gobblespit |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 22:27:58
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I've read that Calimshan was influenced by Turkey.
Yes, I also read this from some source… not sure if it was the FR Wiki or maybe some older D&D Supplement. From what I remember, the reference was that TSR's Al-Qadim was rolled into FR Zakhara, which is equivalent to the Arabian lands (plus Damascus, Baghdad, some parts of Persia etc) of the Arabian Nights.
Meanwhile, the distant Calimshan in SW Faerun is more the cultural equivalent of Turkey (early Ottoman Empire). Historically, many nobles and military officers of the Ottoman Empire were indeed called Pashas.
My current dilemma is in trying to make sense of Calimshan's recent history (since I am most likely to use Calimshan because of its very close proximity to the Sword Coast). After the Spellplague, Calimshan is a hot mess, as the Djinn-blooded genasi rose up to become the ruling people of the land. So what happened to the "regular humans"? I could only imagine that the humans were enslaved, or possibly exiled into the desert badlands (much like wandering bedouins). Calimshan culture, after all, has a loooong history of institutionalized slavery.
OP: and to the OP, I noticed you mention that your GM uses Calimshan as a Persia equivalent. IMHO that works too. Medieval Persia actually had a lot of cultural ties and closeness to early Ottoman Turkey. I'm a military history fan myself. And I do remember that the medieval Safavid Persia was originally established on top of a crumbling Turkoman nation called the White Sheep Turks. And the first Shah of the Medieval Safavid empire Shah Ismail was neither a Persian or Turk, he was technically a mixed Kurdish-Azerbaijani…. Kurds and Azerbaijanis are actually a "minority people" among Turks and Persians.
And so the early Ottoman Empire had frequent border clashes with Safavid Persia, if only because there was a huge border area between them (mostly the Kurdish, Azerbaijani, Armenian, and Georgian regions) that each empire claimed as "rightly theirs".
So using FR Calimshan as a region of Turko-Persian flavor does work quite well.
|
| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 18:12:06
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The practice of worshiping many gods was alive and well during the time when the old testament was being practiced. It did not say "Thou shalt have no other gods." That "before me" means that the god that was favoring the Jews was to be honored first and foremost. The ten commandments predated Christianity and the new testament (which replaced the old testament creating the dividing line between Jews & Christians) as well as the Judeo-Christian practice of monotheism. The "Dreaded Inquisition" (that was so bad that many times people blasphemed in secular courts to be moved to Inquisition courts that were widely hailed in Europe as the most fair and humane courts) is also blown out of proportion in relation to the other religious persecutions and purges carried out around the world. The Inquisition, from benign presence to
malignant abuse of power, was also very much in violation of the tenets of Christianity.
Cyrinishad, if you were trying to create an example of how offensive it would be for a game designer to interject a real world religion into a game and the pratfalls that may happen when asserting overly broad and/or poorly researched points, then "bravo" for nailing this one. Otherwise, "Bane = Inquisition Christianity" is a poorly contrived allegory that is probably meant to bait Christians into an argument instead of doing anything to improve the quality of game play or enrich the storied setting.
Monotheism just doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms. The canon dating back to the early stories of Ed Greenwood prior to D&D even existing has been polytheistic. The powers of the gods are on display for the entire world and are as undeniable as gravity. Trying to get a one-god faith to fit goes against five decades of lore and is such a poor mash-up that it would be better to design a new campaign setting unrelated to the FR that can be built from the ground up just for such a concept.
I don't know, I didn't really get an intentional anti-Christianity "vibe" from Cyrinishad. It's absolutely true that what you're saying about the secular courts vs the Inquisition courts is true - but it's also reflective of more modern scholarship about the Inquisition. The vast majority of people (including Christians), unless they're a historical scholar, only really know about the Hollywood version of the Inquisition. In that sense, a Bane-led Inquisition isn't totally off-base and arguments could be made that as the god of Tyrants this could be his end-goal. Killing all the gods and assuming a monotheistic stance might've even been his intent behind starting the ToT, really. It just backfired spectacularly, if so.
As for monotheism being incompatible with the Realms, I'd consider that other worlds have been shown in canon novels where Shar rose to prominence and destroyed those worlds in accordance with her end-goal of total entropy and loss.
Also, just as different Realms pantheons are driven by the current mode of worship=power and god-god conflict toward a solitary pantheon, it doesn't seem all that much of a leap to consider that eventually the same setup (competing for souls and power) would eventually lead to at least a dualistic system, or indeed a monotheistic system with a god of many faces.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 14:50:51
Al-Qadim is mostly a reconstruction of Arabian Nights setting.
E.g. in a thematically appropriate twist the traditional limit of four wives is explained as "the first sha'ir had four genie wives", one per element.
Calimshan? That would be something like Middle East or maybe (depending on the era) just Turkey (on "general impressions" level), put through a similar spin - it's a mix of completely different elements forged together in wars only to roll into more wars... sometimes it looks like it's about to be shattered, and sometimes gets very strong... for most part it's not pretty, but there were far worse variants, and at least the whole thing kind of works.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If people are afraid to engage in a discussion because they know you will rip into them, then that's censorship.
No, that's "Princess on a Pea".
"X upsets Our Precious, you cannot mention it" is censorship. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 13:48:33
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
[Otherwise, "Bane = Inquisition Christianity" is a poorly contrived allegory that is probably meant to bait Christians into an argument instead of doing anything to improve the quality of game play or enrich the storied setting.
"Probably?"
Look, there is no way for you to know Cyrinishad's intentions. You aren't a mind reader. Don't put words into other people's mouths.
It's obvious you have a problem with the discussion. Instead of slapping other people down when they participate, try leaving them alone so they can do what gamers do best: come up with ideas, suggest possibilities and see where a thread of thought takes them.
Which, by the way, is what the OP is asking for.
If people are afraid to engage in a discussion because they know you will rip into them, then that's censorship. I have played that particular game before. I know it when I see it.
If you disagree, then please show some respect for the OP and PM me your thoughts. Let her have her thread of discussion, OK? |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 10:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me." The practice of worshiping many gods was alive and well during the time when the old testament was being practiced. It did not say "Thou shalt have no other gods." That "before me" means that the god that was favoring the Jews was to be honored first and foremost. The ten commandments predated Christianity and the new testament (which replaced the old testament creating the dividing line between Jews & Christians) as well as the Judeo-Christian practice of monotheism. The "Dreaded Inquisition" (that was so bad that many times people blasphemed in secular courts to be moved to Inquisition courts that were widely hailed in Europe as the most fair and humane courts) is also blown out of proportion in relation to the other religious persecutions and purges carried out around the world. The Inquisition, from benign presence to
malignant abuse of power, was also very much in violation of the tenets of Christianity.
Cyrinishad, if you were trying to create an example of how offensive it would be for a game designer to interject a real world religion into a game and the pratfalls that may happen when asserting overly broad and/or poorly researched points, then "bravo" for nailing this one. Otherwise, "Bane = Inquisition Christianity" is a poorly contrived allegory that is probably meant to bait Christians into an argument instead of doing anything to improve the quality of game play or enrich the storied setting.
Monotheism just doesn't work in the Forgotten Realms. The canon dating back to the early stories of Ed Greenwood prior to D&D even existing has been polytheistic. The powers of the gods are on display for the entire world and are as undeniable as gravity. Trying to get a one-god faith to fit goes against five decades of lore and is such a poor mash-up that it would be better to design a new campaign setting unrelated to the FR that can be built from the ground up just for such a concept. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 00:32:33
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I know it's not an exact equivalency... and yes, Cyric did have that episode. But that was the result of him essentially cursing himself in order to become oblivious to a polytheistic reality.
With all of the stuff that's been thrown around about deities being aspects of other deities, and deities providing spells under the name of other deities, etc. There's definitely opportunity for a faction to develop that pushes the idea that all of the deities are simply aspects of singular divine power... That could have been one way to handle the return of the Imaskari, considering they've always been in conflict with the deities.
Possibly, sure. I suppose AO also would've been another way to do a monotheistic variant, if AO hadn't forbidden worship of himself. And really it still could be, if a DM wants to utilize that for their own home-Realms campaign.
But I'm not sure that's really the point. To really and truly get a Muslim-oriented proxy, it really would require the themes, mores, and societal rules of an Allah and the dogmatic presence of a Qu'ran. Without those, an "arabic" culture would either be a variant of Zoroastrianism or one of the pre-duo-theistic Aryan tribes. And those were similar to Proto-Indo-European cultures. Or it'd be a kind of watered down Disney Aladdin-land, as others noted.
To truly be a Muslim proxy, I just don't think it's possible to get around needing Allah and the Qu'ran. And traditionalist Islamics would very likely find that to be offensive in the extreme. Jihads have been started over less.
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 21 Sep 2015 : 00:15:34
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.
So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along...
Hmm, I'm not sure about Bane. He would want to rule over other deities, but he's never claimed anything like he was the one and only.
Cyric, on the other hand, didn't he (maybe during his fit of madness) quite literally tell his followers that only he was a real god and all the others were false? I try to ignore the ToT deities, but I seem to recall something like that in one of the novels.
I know it's not an exact equivalency... and yes, Cyric did have that episode. But that was the result of him essentially cursing himself in order to become oblivious to a polytheistic reality.
With all of the stuff that's been thrown around about deities being aspects of other deities, and deities providing spells under the name of other deities, etc. There's definitely opportunity for a faction to develop that pushes the idea that all of the deities are simply aspects of singular divine power... That could have been one way to handle the return of the Imaskari, considering they've always been in conflict with the deities. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 07:59:42
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.
So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along...
Hmm, I'm not sure about Bane. He would want to rule over other deities, but he's never claimed anything like he was the one and only.
Cyric, on the other hand, didn't he (maybe during his fit of madness) quite literally tell his followers that only he was a real god and all the others were false? I try to ignore the ToT deities, but I seem to recall something like that in one of the novels.
|
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 20 Sep 2015 : 03:50:08
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.
So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along... |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 19 Sep 2015 : 06:59:51
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Actually, I have a question regarding this thread that is open to anyone to answer, not just the OP. How can anything in the Forgotten Realms have a Muslim proxy? That would be like requesting a Judeo or a Christian proxy. A monotheic religion, and the practices that allow a single-god faith to flourish, cannot withstand the very real presence of a multitude of gods and horrific beings that are stronger than the gods. So how can there be a Muslim equivalent if the very forces and events that propelled Islam in the real world are either absent or run counter to the progress of an equivalent to Islam in the Forgotten Realms?
Most of the Forgotten Realms religions do the things they do because there is a god walking about saying "Listen up, Mortal! This is how you properly worship me." And then these gods have specifically limited powers and stats. How well do you think that would be received by the pious worshippers of the Almighty to have a derivative of their god mocked up in a game and Nerfed in their diminished abilities to what is, for all intents and purposes, a pathetic mockery of their glory? I don't know about anyone else but that sounds patronizing to me and would seem like a PR nightmare for TSR/WotC. Also, wouldn't this unique setting have an equally unique way for the cultures to evolve in accordance with the conditions of the Forgotten Realms as opposed to having to shoe-horn in the real world equivalents?
I was wondering the same things, actually. A true Muslim proxy would require Allah and the Qur'an, and just including that in a fantasy game would be seen as extremely offensive idolatry.
Unless the OP's DM wants pre-monotheistic Arabic culture(s), but then those wouldn't be Muslim.
Confusing, really.
|
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 19 Sep 2015 : 06:42:10
Actually, I have a question regarding this thread that is open to anyone to answer, not just the OP. How can anything in the Forgotten Realms have a Muslim proxy? That would be like requesting a Judeo or a Christian proxy. A monotheic religion, and the practices that allow a single-god faith to flourish, cannot withstand the very real presence of a multitude of gods and horrific beings that are stronger than the gods. So how can there be a Muslim equivalent if the very forces and events that propelled Islam in the real world are either absent or run counter to the progress of an equivalent to Islam in the Forgotten Realms?
Most of the Forgotten Realms religions do the things they do because there is a god walking about saying "Listen up, Mortal! This is how you properly worship me." And then these gods have specifically limited powers and stats. How well do you think that would be received by the pious worshippers of the Almighty to have a derivative of their god mocked up in a game and Nerfed in their diminished abilities to what is, for all intents and purposes, a pathetic mockery of their glory? I don't know about anyone else but that sounds patronizing to me and would seem like a PR nightmare for TSR/WotC. Also, wouldn't this unique setting have an equally unique way for the cultures to evolve in accordance with the conditions of the Forgotten Realms as opposed to having to shoe-horn in the real world equivalents? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 23:14:19
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Interestingly Aladdin was Chinese, not Arab at all, the writers were likely Arab, they got alot of details wrong about China, but Aladdin was Chinese, so was the Princess who wasn't Arab either, she was a Chinese Princess.
Well, 'Chinese' in the same sense as Luke Skywalker or Han Solo from another galaxy, a long time ago. Culturally, the story is Arabian and 'Chinese' is just a way of setting the action far, far away in a land no one knows much about. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 14:25:50
Interestingly Aladdin was Chinese, not Arab at all, the writers were likely Arab, they got alot of details wrong about China, but Aladdin was Chinese, so was the Princess who wasn't Arab either, she was a Chinese Princess. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 18:12:26
Disney did call their musical-like Aladdin animation a "Whole new world, with a new fantastic point of view". 
I see little wrong with borrowing from a Disney movie, as most have nifty elements for a DM to steal. Aladdin had some awesome dungeon action scenes that might have been strait from a fantasy pulp novel (and it actually has indirectly stolen elements from Robert E. Howards Tower of the Elephant).
It would be less of a drag to play in a fantastical over a historically correct version of an arabian tale in any case. So in my view its just as important to give new 'western' spins on mythologies as it is to get the ambiance of a setting right, to get at a result that's more immersive at the gaming table.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 08:33:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't it establish, in one of the very first Al-Qadim books, that they were going more for the Hollywood version of Arabia, rather than a fantasy overlay of the real world?
More of going for Arabian Nights before it was soaked in Disneycorp drool. There was even a quote about dealing with genies, IIRC. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 05:10:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.
The same could be said about most gaming settings, even the Western European proxies. We're just more inoculated to the stereotypes and there are likely fewer vocal Westerners who take offense to caricatures of their heritage (for a variety of reasons, not a qualitative statement).
Every few years, some group objects to fantasy depictions of their religion. We may treat it as mythology, but for them it is an active and holy religion. It's not isolated to the Eastern or African religious devotees, but also Christians and Wiccans at various points (and again not limited to them, this is not about pointing groups out).
Also, I've heard that the Disney cartoon show based on the Aladdin movies were very popular in parts of the Mid-East during their run in the '90s and early '00s. Different strokes for different folks.
In general, the Disney take on stories are noted for being watered down, sanitized fairy tales but they maintain their popularity. Sometimes it's not about presenting something accurately or faithfully, but just presenting a fun story with beautiful visuals.
Just as most fantasy games aren't meant to be true representations of real world cultures. Do we think real life druids and the inspiration for paladins are remotely similar to their D&D representations? Not even close.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.
But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world.
I think hiring designers based on ethnic heritage or culture to match the intended setting's motif would be a mistake, at least if expecting that to automatically providing a superior representation of the culture.
Sword & Sorcery fantasy has distinctly American* roots and is a very hodgepodge mashup. This is very different from writers of other cultures who have always lived in a place with an established cultural mythology.
Take wuxia writers for example. They don't set their stories in some facsimile of ancient China, they use actual historical China, down to specific dynasties and eras with the pre-established figures and events as a background. Use of secondary worlds, such as in some manga/anime or more modern media, is generally a more recent trend.
* Arguably, even Tolkien with his English roots created Middle-Earth, in part to show, what he thought a prehistoric, pre-Christian English national epic would resemble (like the Finland has the Kalevala, the Nordic countries have the Prose Edda and others, India has the Ramayana, etc.). Then the major inspirations for modern fantasy games have a tradition of fusion and cultural syncretism.
Would we get a "better" setting using ethnic designers? Maybe, hard to generalize.
We could simply be trading one set of biases for another skewed towards the author's own perspective. It is evident peoples of all regions can be biased towards their neighbors. There is no guarantee their works will 'read true'. The Middle East (or other regions) are not innocent in this regard in terms of some of the propaganda and their stereotypes versus the West and other countries (same for other regions). No one is perfect based on their background alone and no one is unbiased just because they belong to a fairly narrow portion of a very broad group.
Designers should try to do better in representing a variety of cultures, but it does not mean they must be born of that culture to represent it well in a fantasy medium. Nor should designers be slaves to history as even historical fiction on the face of being fiction is taking some liberties with history.
An example could be found in professor M.A.R. Barker and his Tekumel setting. He was someone not born to the cultures and languages he studied, but made compelling depictions of them through a distinctly fantasy lens using their traditions as inspiration and not a simple mold. He even decided to start from a clean slate using a sci-fi origin.
Recently I read an article about Chinese animated filmmakers scratching their heads on why Kung Fu Panda (an American film) was such a blockbuster in the Chinese market, while their natively developed Chinese offerings covering the same concepts were flops in their own market. I recall one of the Chinese filmmakers remarked the Americans took the styling familiar with the Chinese and spun a better, more emotional story, they found something that translated beyond a simple word-for-word transcript. This was not to say the Americans were better, but that some of the filmmakers had something to think over.
The reverse is true at times, martial arts films are popular here beyond their schlocky exposure and minimal representation here in the West. It goes beyond the spectacle of flashy fights. The genre often deals with a cathartic confrontation of the downtrodden versus a corrupted elite, it's often an underdog story. These things also translate to Western audiences beyond the poor dubbing.
Creating an interesting setting, whether typical Western fantasy or something drawing from a different source is a complicated matter and can't be parsed down to simply using writers of a particular group. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 04:38:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The old 2E Al-Qadim stuff impressed me at first. I enjoyed being immersed right away into psuedo-Arabian culture, cultured maleficent djinns, haggling with relentless merchants, crazy scimitar-wielding desert warriors.
But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.
Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.
But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world.
Didn't it establish, in one of the very first Al-Qadim books, that they were going more for the Hollywood version of Arabia, rather than a fantasy overlay of the real world? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 02:45:02
The old 2E Al-Qadim stuff impressed me at first. I enjoyed being immersed right away into psuedo-Arabian culture, cultured maleficent djinns, haggling with relentless merchants, crazy scimitar-wielding desert warriors.
But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.
Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.
But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 19:41:46
Their work needs to be polished and comparable in quality to our current 'lore standards' to be printed, though.
The way the class kits were presented in the Land of Fate players supplement was excellent though; the class stories already lept from the pages. A few experts on muslim culture might be able to give added perspective into these.
Reshuffling some kits into backgrounds, class archetypes and features, feats and/or a new class or two can all be done by someone with some insight into the 5th editions game design, so that could be done by anyone.
I might try my hand at converting some of the classes in the old Al-Qadim settingbook to 5e mechanics if I can get a hold on a copy later this weekend. Really want to give Al-Qadim another run sometime soon. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 23:13:10
It doesn't really cost "more" to hire people from different cultures. If you just go on tumblr you can find a lot of passionate fans of almost anything of almost any ethnicity. I know tons of nerdy Muslim girls and people of Muslim extraction who'd jump at the chance to polish up Al-Qadim/Calimshan/Semphar et. all. It's really a matter of will, and even if their focus was on people seeking the fantasy europe experience, clearly Al-Qadim has been popular enough to keep people's attention, so why not do it right? That way you might attract more people from different cultures too. It's actually a fantastic way of avoiding stagnancies, as well as making it more accurate given medieval europe had a lot of travel from the middle & far east and africa. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 01 Sep 2015 : 02:06:36
Gratulations on 100th post Bladewind, and Happy Birthday! |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 19:27:44
Fist time I had a thunderstorm. Loving the day already, so many bizarrely awesome gifts.
I'll preemptively reciprocate the congrats then!  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 19:03:17
YOUR birthday is just one day after mine? 
Happy Birthday! All hail us Virgos! 
And grats on the milenial post.  |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 18:39:43
If future FR products can give me some in-depth insight of a different cultures myths focused through Toril's Lens of Awesome I heartily encourage that.
Accurately described landscapes, 'in character' related (ghost) stories, exotic weapon masteries (and mysteries), eerily complex magic users and loads and loads more can be introduced into the realms if done with earths cross cultural mythological history in mind. So I would definitely would love to see Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and Maztica revisited. I don't care were WotC gets their experts, as long as they can bring some refreshing perspectives for me to ponder over and plunder for my games, both as a story focused player or DM seeking inspiration.
W00tw00t, I hit my 1000th post on my birthday! And on subject I actually care allot about aswell! Thanks Roseweave for bringing it up.
And thank you all for keeping this place so awesome over all these years. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 17:08:10
Well, Semphar has a long history of being subjugated, it was first part of the Imaskari Empire.
Calimshan is a bizarre beast. It's a mix of many elements, starting out as somewhat al-Andalus, with elements of Ancient Arabia and Canaan(With Brass Idol of Bhaelros, for Example), but later got elements of the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires.
Due to it's share age, Calimshan resembles somewhat Caananite countries, and their later form, Phoenicia. The earliest Canaanite settlement, Jericho, was founded 9000 B.C., and Phoenicia occupied territories roughly similar to Calimshan.
But I see Imaskar as maybe somewhat the Realms version of Mu/Lemuria.
Mu was said to be precursors of Sumerian, Ancient Egyptians, Indus civilization, Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, Turks, Mongols, Tibetans, Ancient China, and sometimes even Atlantis(with Lantan being Atlantis).
Imaskar is canonically, the precursor to Unther(Babylon/Akkad/Sumer), Mulhorand(Egypt), Solon(India), Var(India), possibly Utter East(India), Semphar(Persia, with elements of Mesopotamia, but after the fall of Babylonians, explaining the constant subjugation), Thay(somewhat Turkish, actually seems more mix of various Anatolian countries and Egypt. Ed himself said that Thay is a mix of many Oriental elements), Durpar(India and Afganistan with strong Semitic Elements), Raumathar(Iranian tribes, like Sarmates and Scythians, along with proto-Slaves), Shou Lung(China), Tuigan Tribes(Mongol and minor Turkish), Murghom(Turks and Semitic people), Ra-Khati(Tibet and Nepal) and possibly Lantan(Atlantis). It's also possible Imaskari had some connection to Maztica and especially the lands soutth of it - Lapongo(which is Inca-like), as many Imaskari names have a Quechuan etymology(Like Ususi), which was the language of Incas.
Of course, many may disagree to my connections of those Realmsian countries and cultures to real world counterpart, and indeed, I'm rather generalising here, to show Imaskar has indeed some parallels to Mu, intentional or not.
Lemuria(often identical with Mu) in Mighty Max, had advanced knowledge of portals, so I wonder if one could say they were a Imaskari survivor state, or colony. |
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