| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jelennet |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 05:39:17
Are there any famous elven high mages in the Realms? Can you name them? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 19 Jun 2015 : 22:07:39
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm not sure why we're arguing over a four year old scroll, but okay.
quote:
Elves of Evermeet, page 62
A High Mage is an elven sorcerer who has exceeded the normal racial limit for elves.
Says so in the very first sentence about high mages.
And the first sentence about rangers in AD&D2 PHB says "the ranger is a skilled woodsman..." - which doesn't mean ignoring everything beyond this phrase would be anything but either lack of reading comprehension or laughably straw-grasping level of lawyerism. 
quote:
In comparison, Cormanthyr doesn't have hard and fast level limits at all, instead it depends on race and intelligence, with even green elves being able to reach level 18.
Again, no. It doesn't just quietly drop the rule, it states that such a campaign have to use Slow Advancement and Prime Requisite Bonus from DMG.
quote:
Elves of Evermeet's "high magic" were just 8th and 9th level spells with a table of drawbacks.
Yes, but the same is true for wild magic. This doesn't mean that everyone who meets the prerequisites automatically can use it.
quote:
Not to mention a completely different mode of entry (requiring 100 years of work)
And the rest of the world is not teeming with them because?..
quote:
As for Amlaruil [...] Based on what's written there, there's no way she's an archmage or even an experienced mage. She's repeatedly referred to as a girl, and her youth is emphasized. When she says apprentice, it's clear she means she's just starting her magical studies.
1) Not all human archmages are decrepit. There always is some fast-climbing prodigy or ten. To become an archmage while still fairly young, she didn't need to advance faster than humans - just faster than most elves.
2) After she was blessed by the Seldarine, all bets are off - she is likely to have advantages in this matter and could advance faster than normal specifically in safe access to HM. Just like those Chosen of Mystra have advantages in all spellcasting available to them and were able to overcome not only wild magic zones, but also magical chaos during ToT. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 14:04:59
Hoondatha, although Amlaruil looked like a girl, as far as I remember she was indeed a High Mage. If I recall correctly, her apparent age was magically preserved, even to elven standards, by divine intervention.
The sword allowed her to use High magic without the risks normally associated to its invocation. And even if the text in Elves of Evermeet says that High Mages were elves that surpassed the level limits, it also said that this was an old and powerful elven style of magic (hence the risk of casting it). Cormanthyr revised it and made it an entirely new system, that is true, and I think it was an evolution. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 22:37:57
Aha, that would explain the "what post" earlier. Since I wasn't quick enough to see the now-gone post, I was a bit lost. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 22:29:22
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm not sure why we're arguing over a four year old scroll, but okay.
A now-banned spammer brought this scroll back to the top of the pile. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 20:33:29
I'm not sure why we're arguing over a four year old scroll, but okay.
quote:
Elves of Evermeet, page 62
A High Mage is an elven sorcerer who has exceeded the normal racial limit for elves.
Says so in the very first sentence about high mages. In comparison, Cormanthyr doesn't have hard and fast level limits at all, instead it depends on race and intelligence, with even green elves being able to reach level 18.
Elves of Evermeet's "high magic" were just 8th and 9th level spells with a table of drawbacks. Cormanthyr's high magic was a system of rituals, completely separate from the normal level 1-9 system. Not to mention a completely different mode of entry (requiring 100 years of work), and side benefits that are totally absent from Elves of Evermeet.
By any standard, they are two separate things.
As for Amlaruil, going back and rereading that part of Evermeet, I've changed my mind. Based on what's written there, there's no way she's an archmage or even an experienced mage. She's repeatedly referred to as a girl, and her youth is emphasized. When she says apprentice, it's clear she means she's just starting her magical studies.
Looking at it now, my feeling is that the Tower of the Sun and Moon would seek out magical savants in the general populace and do their training in-house. They wouldn't actually learn high magic until centuries later, but the tower would want to make sure there are as many potential high mages in the pipeline as possible. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 18:02:42
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Part of the problem is that what exactly constitutes a "high mage" changed over the course of Second Edition.
Doesn't look this way.
quote:
Remember, Elves of Evermeet significantly predates the Cormanthyr supplement that gave high mages their 2e game mechanics, and their lore background. (EoE came out in 1994, Cor was published in 1998)
What Elves of Evermeet considers a "high mage" is simply any elf that advanced past the elven racial class level limit.
No.
HM rituals were not the same as usual arcane magic and required separate study from the start.
The necessary options (Slow Advancement and Prime Requisite Bonus) are from DMG, so if they are used, no reason why there won't be other wizards (and not only) who exceed "caps".
quote:
And then she's an "apprentice" of the tower, in that she's an apprentice in high magic, even though she's already at or near archmagehood in normal wizard terms.
But it's the whole point, no? That "apprentices" of advanced forms of magic are masters of conventional techniques. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 13:21:43
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
A great posty I missed when first published, I'm somehow thankful for MichaelLon's inadequate post. Administrators?
What post?   |
| Barastir |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 13:19:08
A great THREAD I missed when first published, I'm somehow thankful for MichaelLon's inadequate post. Administrators?
EDIT: Wrong word now corrected, and thank you Wooly. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 02:41:41
Fellfire the same error/problem across multiple browsers could indicate fault anywhere in the OS or even in the hardware. Most likely bad browser settings or even malware. You might have luck uninstalling your browser, restarting, reinstalling, restarting again (don't skip the restarts). Have it fixed by a nerd or start here. The problem might not get worse over time but it almost certainly won't get better.
I can't find this material archived anywhere else online. This appears to be the only source, no matter how cumbersome. At least it's not as ugly as Realms-L. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 23:42:37
I'm having serious issues over at WotC. For the last two weeks I can't even navigate there without difficulty. I keep getting "Run Time Application Error" messages. For a while I could get in with Chrome, but now that IE and Firefox are all blotto. I don't know what the problem is, I've tried clearing my cookies and temps. Does anybody have the Elven Netbooks that aren't on Lord Karsus' page? Markus? Anybody?
Especially Elven Organizations and Houses, lots of dead links there. Magical Items! 9 Hells, I want it all. Please share if you've got it this lore is too good to be lost to the ravages of time. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 15:12:39
Yes, the first post is the index, and the subsequent 12-13 posts link to the indexed contents. These links lead all over the bloody place, most to other threads on the forum, many to dead ends, a few to convenient downloads. Some parts of this library appear to be forever lost to the shifting planes, it might be prudent to copy what lore remains before it disappears entirely.
I note that Candlekeep's own learned MarkusTay is credited as one of the authors, he might perhaps possess copies of (or links to) lore which is no longer intact in the main archive. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 14:52:05
Try looking at the first page of the thread, it ought to have the index.
If not, you can always search 'In This Thread' the name of the place/person you're looking for. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 11:42:01
Where exactly, Zireael? that link brought me to 220 pages of posts and replies. has this not been compiled by anybody? |
| Zireael |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 08:42:05
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Is it just the 3 Volumes on Lord Karsus' page?
Yes, only those three were finished.
But the rest of the materials can be found at the other link I supplied. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 02:29:21
Is it just the 3 Volumes on Lord Karsus' page? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 02:09:09
I think a number of "important" Elven High Mages are briefly active in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. They (and a bunch of Mystra's Chosen) defend the mythal at Evereska from phaerimm assault. Their "total" numbers and approximate strengths are also mentioned. Many of them die since they aren't the best choice for blasting. I can't recall any of their names. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 18:25:15
Danke, Zirael! |
| Zireael |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 09:25:50
Elven Netbook - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19848926/Elven_Netbook?pg=221
Or at LordKarsus's Deviant Art profile (that's in one of the finished volumes) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 04:40:07
Ah, where is that? I keep seeing references to it, and have not myself had a look at it. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 04:12:11
Sorry, Alystra, I was wrong.
I am using the variant Netherese Archwizard prestige class.
The high mage one I used was from the Elven Notebook. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 27 Jan 2011 : 21:37:30
It might take some time. I think the build was
lost when Dicefreaks lost their last website.
I'll try and type it up on a Forum in the near
future. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 04:07:46
Do you have a link for that? Or perhaps you could post it? |
| althen artren |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 04:06:16
There was an alternative class that was at Dicefreaks (before they disappeared and returned) for Elven High Mage that was much better, and is the one I adopted for my games. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 03:52:13
Agreed. I liked the way it was presented in Cormanthyr, and was sorely disappointed by the way 3.5 presented it. The PrC for High Mages was just kind of weak, IMO. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 03:15:43
I never used the level caps either, and, though I remain a 2e partisan, consider them one of the edition's stupider concepts. But that doesn't mean Realms products didn't have to take them into account, and that's what high magic (much though I love it) originally started as. It turned into something else even before 3e came along. Actually, I think 3e diminished it significantly. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 26 Jan 2011 : 03:04:15
Personally, I never saw a problem with the "high level" elves, as my own games never used the level cap in 2nd ed, and since it was a novel, Elaine's book didn't have to specify just how "high level" they were. Basically, the High Mages could be whatever level you wanted them to be. But even with thelevel cap, I always just ignored that for the books, since it is a story and not explicitly required to adhere to the rules of the game. I've said elsewhere that a novel should try to stick to the "rules" inherent in the setting in order to make sense both in and out of game, but after having those rules change through several edition changes, I just chalk it up to the way Magic changed between 2nd and 3rd ed. |
| althen artren |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 23:50:54
Well, the elves fan me and feed me grapes while I take ridiculous
calls from California people. Its the only way I stay sane.
Curiously, the company objects to them being totally nude.
I don't know why? |
| althen artren |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 23:49:05
Yep Erdick's right. That's the one. Far too powerful for 2 edition. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 23:09:23
Part of the problem is that what exactly constitutes a "high mage" changed over the course of Second Edition. Remember, Elves of Evermeet significantly predates the Cormanthyr supplement that gave high mages their 2e game mechanics, and their lore background. (EoE came out in 1994, Cor was published in 1998)
What Elves of Evermeet considers a "high mage" is simply any elf that advanced past the elven racial class level limit. So by definition, Amlaruil is a "high mage," since she's listed as a W20.
Alystra is also right that there's something of an age problem with Amlaruil's first appearance in Evermeet: Island of Elves as an apprentice at the Towers of Sun and Moon, in that she's (iirc) described as an elven maiden, cavorting with another maiden in the presence of unicorns. However, remember that E:IoE was published in early 1998, which means it was written before the Cormanthyr supplement was published, which means it was working with the older definition of high magic.
Fortunately, Elaine Cunningham worked in a way for us to deal with this problem: E:IoE is a compilation put together by Danilo for Arilyn of stories and histories he's managed to finagle out of elves or people who know elves. Which means that anything in there could very easily be a lie (or at least a distortion). Amlaruil is later stated as being a high mage; I think an easy way to resolve this with Cormanthyr's version of high magic is that she's a bit older than she was originally presented. Maybe not the full three centuries, but she's clearly recognized as a magical genius, and so it's fully possible the high mages would have accepted her a bit early. And then she's an "apprentice" of the tower, in that she's an apprentice in high magic, even though she's already at or near archmagehood in normal wizard terms. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 23:00:52
Aha! I found the page in EoE with her, and it would seem that her High Magic was a gift from the gods themselves- it is part of her connection to Evermeet, and would fade if she left. So, it seems I was half-right. She is not "technically" a High Mage, but is able to use it with no ill-effects that most High Mages might suffer. Otherwise, she is simply immortal and a wizard 20. |
