| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 05:37:18
I have been rereading many of books in preparation for my groups first 5th edition Realms game, and since we don't yet have a comprehensive 5th edition FRCS sourcebook, I found myself speculating on various Heretical Cosmologies and "What- If" ideas about established canon.
The first one that came to mind was about Mystra during the Time of Troubles. This heresy supposes that Midnight becoming Mystra is actually Leira assuming the mantle of Mystra after the real Mystra was killed by Helm. Midnight's birth name was Ariel Manx. Ariel is the inverse spelling of Leira... Thoughts? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 05:22:30
Here's some more fuel for the Heresy Fires... We know that the lore on the creation/relationships of the deities in the Realms is really just "What Oghma says happened"... and we now know that Talos = Gruumsh, which is a contradiction of Oghma's creation myth... Has anyone considered what else he's mixed up about?
Here some things floating around in my head at the moment:
1. Does every Racial Deity actually have a Torilian Deity alter ego, so that they can draw divine power the other races? ...I like Gruumsh and all, but somehow I don't think he was the first or only one to come up with this idea.
2. What if Oghma got the creation of Mystryl backwards? The original twin deities were actually Mystryl(Weave) & Shar(Shadow Weave)... And Selune (the moon) is instead the product of Mystryl, along with Amauntor/Lathander (the sun) and Jannath/Chauntea (the planet Toril). Doesn't seem like much of stretch to me.
3. What if Helm didn't lose his divinty during the Time of Troubles, not because AO chose for him to keep it, but instead because AO couldn't take it away... because Helm isn't a deity at all... Helm is AO's Avatar.
Any other ideas rolling around in people's heads? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 01:51:48
quote:
Cyrinishad
Thanks for the clarification Ayrik, I think I see where you're coming from now. So, basically the suggestion is that any of these Interloper/Racial deities are essentially stasis clones of the original deity... Identical to the original deity until the time they are awoken by worshipers of Toril (or any other world), at which point their realm of experiences, thoughts, judgements, etc. diverge from the original deity to create a deity unique to that world that merely shares the name of the origin deity.
That's an interesting proposition that will require some serious consideration. I think this also provides for a fairly reasonable mechanism to justify deities returning after being killed or destroyed. This also ties in nicely with Rymac's observation on the diverging alignments of the various incarnations of Mystra, since under this presumption each returning incarnation of a deity would not be indentical to the previous incarnation. This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity.
Basically, yes. Except my view is that there isn't any "original" deity, an archetype or template from which all the other-same versions of that diety are derived. Realms-Tyr is (paradoxically) said to be just as old as Norse-Tyr - I think "both" Tyrs are unique individuals (defined and redefined and constantly reshaped by their respective believers and faiths, and in at least one instance also by a proximately superior power - Ao). So which is the "original" and which the "clone"? Again, a common power among D&D deities is an ability to maintain multiple instances of self, to be in many places and occupy many bodies (avatars) and possess many minds all at once, in a unified-yet-apart manner we puny mortals cannot comprehend.
In the Realms there is also Kezef the Chaos Hound, named also as the Fenris. Clearly identical in essence to the Wolf Fenrir of Norse mythology (although perhaps not fated in the Realms to be an instrument of Ragnarok, lol, and also deemed a Primordial as of 4E). Dendar the Night Serpent (also a Primordial, these days) is just as clearly a Realms adaptation of the Nidhogg wyrm of Germanic mythology (and he nibbles on the next best thing available in Realmslore since no caves under the roots of Yggdrasil are handy).
Yet we have Helm, I think originally a version of Heimdall, and now a very different sort of god indeed. In the Realms he has been known to vigilantly guard things and ban Mystra from ascending a Celestial Staircase but is generally interested in substantially different sorts of portfolios and functions than his Norse counterpart.
And the Ouroborus World Serpent of Realmslore is an entity almost entirely unrelated to any mythological (or Planescape) counterpart elsewhere in the cosmos. About the only important thing they have in common is their symbol. In recent Realmslore, a variety of truly ancient beings - such as Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, and Asmodeus - have (in cosmic timescales) been drastically and dramatically changed in fundamental ways almost overnight. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 20:07:59
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Right on, Wooly... and perhaps the beings that assumed the mantles of Mystra, Bane, Bhaal, etc. are shaped by the faith of worshippers. Which is why Xvim/Bane and his clergy continually insist that it is actually Bane reborn and not Xvim, because the more that the people of Toril believe him to actually be Bane reborn, the more his assumption of the mantle of Bane will become divine reality. And if the idea that he were actually Xvim became the dominant idea again, it would lessen his power and revert him back to Xvim... Good stuff.
Actually... We have cases of deities impersonating fallen deities, in order to increase their power. Lolth impersonating the fallen Moander is a good example. My theory is that Xvim has deliberately assumed the identity of Bane, because he wants Daddy's worshipers and reputation. Xvim was a newcomer on the divine scene -- Bane was well-known and established. Impersonating him would be a big boost.
It's just a theory, but there are a lot of little things that support it. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 16:56:29
Right on, Wooly... and perhaps the beings that assumed the mantles of Mystra, Bane, Bhaal, etc. are shaped by the faith of worshippers. Which is why Xvim/Bane and his clergy continually insist that it is actually Bane reborn and not Xvim, because the more that the people of Toril believe him to actually be Bane reborn, the more his assumption of the mantle of Bane will become divine reality. And if the idea that he were actually Xvim became the dominant idea again, it would lessen his power and revert him back to Xvim... Good stuff.
This concept makes Oghma and Leira major players in shaping and controlling knowledge, perhaps giving them the ultimate power to literally transform or resurrect or create deities over time.
Along these lines... Anybody have any theories as to who or what has assumed the mantles of the other returned deities? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 16:11:05
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity.
When Mystryl died, her divinity went to a chosen mortal vessel... And the same thing happened with Mystra 1.0.
Officially, Bhaal was reborn thru his Bhaalspawn, and though I personally maintain that Bane is dead and that Xvim is impersonating him, the official line is that Bane was reborn thru his son Xvim.
So there is a precedent for deities being reborn and somewhat modified; Bane 2.0, in particular, has a lot more in common with Xvim than he does with Bane 1.0. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 14:22:09
Thanks for the clarification Ayrik, I think I see where you're coming from now. So, basically the suggestion is that any of these Interloper/Racial deities are essentially stasis clones of the original deity... Identical to the original deity until the time they are awoken by worshipers of Toril (or any other world), at which point their realm of experiences, thoughts, judgements, etc. diverge from the original deity to create a deity unique to that world that merely shares the name of the origin deity.
That's an interesting proposition that will require some serious consideration. I think this also provides for a fairly reasonable mechanism to justify deities returning after being killed or destroyed. This also ties in nicely with Rymac's observation on the diverging alignments of the various incarnations of Mystra, since under this presumption each returning incarnation of a deity would not be indentical to the previous incarnation. This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 05:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I suggest another oddball heresy: in the beginning there was Mystryl, then Mystra, finally Midnight. Three goddesses of magic who (aside from a few briefly violent interregna) maintain the continuum of magic across the entire span of the Realms. Not to mention that they also control all access to temporal travel, divinations of past and future events, etc.
Just a thought, but the three aspects of the Lady of Mysteries (Mystryl, Mystra, & Midnight) diverged in alignment. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral, Mystra was Lawful Neutral, & Midnight was/is Neutral Good. A fourth version of the Lady of Mysteries could potentially be Neutral Evil, or balance out at True Neutral. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 03:29:44
I was suggesting that since we already know of one specific instance of such a deific interloper becoming firmly entrenched within and shaped by the Realms (Tyr) then it doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be more than one. It almost seems unreasonable to claim that Tyr and Tyr alone is the sole exception among Faerunian Powers. And it seems a workable sort of explanation for Corellon.
The drow of the Realms have a racial history similar to drow of Oerth and other worlds, although details differ. Drow from any world are said to have been cursed by Corellon in the same manner. Drow of many worlds worship some sort of Lolth (or Lloth, lol). Each different version of the drow story cannot all be true - unless different "instances" of Corellon acted in these similar-yet-different ways on each world where a Corellon is worshipped. All the other elves of the Realms are likewise similar to their other-worldly counterparts, perhaps they share a common origin and the ancient specifics of their godly mythology have been blurred over time (as suggested in 2E Spelljammer lore). But perhaps each world where elves dwell, regardless how they came to be there, has it's own version of "Corellon" whose execution of his divine role differed from all others.
The Realms gods are said to be shaped and defined by the specific belief of their worshippers. As are the various Powers in Planescape and many other worlds. So the gods must each be as unique as the peoples (and nations and tribes) which worship them - yet, they must also have a recognizable "global" omni-godness which unifies their core self-identity across every place where they are worshipped. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 00:28:41
I like where your head is at Ayrik. Are you suggesting first that essentially all Torilian versions of interloper/racial deities are not actually those deities, and instead aspects of Torilian deities? If so, that opens a lot of doors...
Also, I think your interpretation of the Weave of Magic is a gem. This basically justifies Magic itself in Toril as being identical to Physics in the natural universe. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 23:31:53
Old Realmslore (originally 2E Netheril: Empire of Magic, I think) asserts that their were originally only seven Faerunian deities. Not of few of the later additions to the pantheon were interloping foreign powers. Most notable among these, perhaps, is Tyr - Realms-Tyr is clearly related to Norse-Tyr (I actually suspect Realms-Tyr was originally an "aspect" or even an avatar of a Norse-Tyr, lol), and yet Realms-Tyr has also evolved into a distinct and substantially differentiated sort of god. And if it could happen once, it could happen on any world where people are willing to worship Tyr (or at least worship something notionally similar to Tyr). Such a redefinition may have also happened with Realms-Corellon vs Feywild-Corellon?
I suggest another oddball heresy: in the beginning there was Mystryl, then Mystra, finally Midnight. Three goddesses of magic who (aside from a few briefly violent interregna) maintain the continuum of magic across the entire span of the Realms. Not to mention that they also control all access to temporal travel, divinations of past and future events, etc. I suggest that the Weave may be an ageless living construct which envelopes the Realms across all eternity, simultaneously existing everywhere and everywhen - and that the Trinity of Mystras we know across three D&D editions are a Realmsy expression of the Three Fates, constantly spinning and weaving and cutting threads in the tapestry of magic (and thus controlling the destinies of all things and all people touching this magic). Whether such an entity is composed of three individuals or of a single triple-aspected individual is an irrelevant question best suited to theologicians. (Since, after all, any given deity in the Realms can already maintain multiple simultaneous consciousnesses, minds, and avatars anyhow.) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 19:14:49
That makes sense. In order to have a world that rots, there has to be something that can be corrupted in it, there has to be life. That would work as a motivation for Moander to use a curse that at the end of the day has beneificial effects rather than negative ones.
This has indeed storytelling potential, especially if you can manage to make a full campaign out of it. Araushnee/Corellon would also become dramatic figures: they acted with the best intentions for their people, but were ultimately manipulated by forces greater than them. Finding out what truly happened and finding a way to free the two of them from the mind-twisting influences, therefore ending the drow-elf war (or helping Eilistraee -and perhaps Vhaeraun too- to do that) would make for a really cool story IMO.
I also like your take on the contrast between the elven and dwarven cultures.
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| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 18:59:44
I hate to throw the Dwarves in here after the fact, but I'm going to do it anyway. The Moander/Corellon heresy helps to highlight some justifications for the contrasting cultures of the Elves and the Dwarves. Both races are perceived in a broad sense as caretaker races for humanity, but without the Moander/Corellon connection I was never able to reconcile the "chaotic" nature of elves with their near immortality. I always thought that their immortality would make them have a more "lawful" nature, since their longevity would prove to them that their way is the way that works.
So, with this connection, the elves valuing the inspiration and creativity of individuals, constantly encouraging new expressions of artistry, music, languages, ideas, etc. These constant new ideas and contributions are essentially fuel for decay.
While the Dwarves value the constancy of tradition, masonry, dethek runes, etc. Essentially, they are looking to create things and concepts that have permanency in cosmological sense. Suddenly, this contrast starts feeling more logical to me. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 18:38:30
Great points all around. Wooly, while you're totally correct that aging is essentially a form of cellular change, and not decay via bacterial processes. My interpretation of Moander as the god of decay would have to be larger in scope than any scientific processes. His cult likely uses the scientific process as a ritual because it something that they can perceive on a small scale. But on a cosmological scale, his concept of decay would be the decline of everything: magic, culture, beauty, civilization, etc. Corellon would serve as a perfect vessel for cosmological decay, since the Elves are generally perceived as the ultimate caretakers of these concepts.
Also, I think Moander and Shar are natural foes on some level. Shar desires the universe to return to the void itself, nonexistence... Moander desires continual decay of the universe, but he cannot permit the universe to end and return to the void... So, a force would be required to ensure the continutal creation of things that can decay. The manipulation of the elves could serve that purpose for Moander, as caretakers of a universe that is in a continual state of decay.
This idea is still very much in the early brainstorming stages, but I think it has some storyline potential. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 17:20:53
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I spent some time rereading my material on Moander and Shar, and realized that perhaps they should both be involved. I want Eiliastree to be a symbol of the new age of the elven people, a redemption figure for all the elves.
It is referenced that Moander can not only speed up decay, he can slow it down as well... so, maybe there lies the dark secret to the longevity of the elven people. Moander actually corrupted Corellon, not Auruanshee. Moander enabled Corellon and the Elves become nearly immortal and retain a near perfect semblance of outer beauty. Auruanshee somehow finds out that Moander is the power behind Corellon. She knows that Corellon cannot hear her because Moander is already in his head. So, she thinks the only way to save the Elves from Moander is to cut out the cancer... and when she cannot get Selune to help her, the dark sister Shar tells Auruanshee that she can give her the magic of the "Drow blessing" she needs to be victorious and save her people.
When Corellon defeats the insurrection, Moander's whispers convince him to banish his children to the Abyss as well, so that all voices of reason are cast out... and Eiliastree is left searching for a way to redeem her mother and father.
I am somewhat invested in the idea of Corellon being a villain/victim in the 5th edition campaign... Or at least having a major divide in the elves perceptions of the return Eiliastree, partly because I haven't had an opportunity to use the Eldreth Veluuthra yet. And the idea that Elven "immortality" is a curse instead of a blessing seems somewhat intriguing.
I like this take quite a lot (I always enjoy when you have no definite ''I'm right and good, they're wrong and bad'' situation), but IMO -as Wooly pointed out- a reason why Moander chose that particualr form for a curse would be needed.
I mean, Shar gets to spread despair and suffering beacuse of the conflict that would spring from the corruption of Araushnee*, but what would Moander get? At the end of the day he wants everything to rot, and his choice doesn't really lead to that.
IIRC Moander also directly corrupted -with his usual kind of corruption- elves both in Darkwatch and Cormanthor, but then this doesn't directly contradict his corrupting the whole eleven race in a different manner. There's also Lolth's taking Moander as an alias to be considered (but then this could maybe just be an act of spite towards Corellon/the elves, since she would know that Moander is the force behind her former lover's fall from grace)
Perhaps the ''eternal'' youth was his device to twist and make the elven souls rot, but then we know that elves go to Arvandor and that they are quite happy there. Or you could also say that with his ''gift'' he implanted his spores in the elven souls, in order to use them to bring his corruption to Arvandor itself. Why he hasn't already done that remains a problem though (by now, he would have tons of spores up there. Unless a sort of ''critical mass'' is needed before the process can begin and evolve in a way that not much could be done about it. Or unless Araushnee actually managed to somehow slow him down). Just throwing ideas out there, there's some stuff to be considered, assumung that you want to remain close to canon.
On a side note, I don't see the need of having Selune involved and refusing to aid her. That would also mean that the Moon Maiden would be aware of the secret forces corrupting the elves, IMO it would be better if the only ones knowing were Corellon and Lolth, while everyone else (including Eilistraee, who would understand that something is wrong with her parents, but wouldn't know what exactly) had to find it out. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 15:38:43
It's your campaign, so whatever works for you... But I don't see how physically remaining a young adult for several centuries could possibly constitute being a curse. A lot of people would give a lot for such a boon - especially when it also affected their loved ones.
Also, assuming elven genetics work somewhat similarly to real-world genetics, aging isn't a form of decay. It's an inability for cells to keep replicating without changes.
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| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 13:45:15
I spent some time rereading my material on Moander and Shar, and realized that perhaps they should both be involved. I want Eiliastree to be a symbol of the new age of the elven people, a redemption figure for all the elves.
It is referenced that Moander can not only speed up decay, he can slow it down as well... so, maybe there lies the dark secret to the longevity of the elven people. Moander actually corrupted Corellon, not Auruanshee. Moander enabled Corellon and the Elves become nearly immortal and retain a near perfect semblance of outer beauty. Auruanshee somehow finds out that Moander is the power behind Corellon. She knows that Corellon cannot hear her because Moander is already in his head. So, she thinks the only way to save the Elves from Moander is to cut out the cancer... and when she cannot get Selune to help her, the dark sister Shar tells Auruanshee that she can give her the magic of the "Drow blessing" she needs to be victorious and save her people.
When Corellon defeats the insurrection, Moander's whispers convince him to banish his children to the Abyss as well, so that all voices of reason are cast out... and Eiliastree is left searching for a way to redeem her mother and father.
I am somewhat invested in the idea of Corellon being a villain/victim in the 5th edition campaign... Or at least having a major divide in the elves perceptions of the return Eiliastree, partly because I haven't had an opportunity to use the Eldreth Veluuthra yet. And the idea that Elven "immortality" is a curse instead of a blessing seems somewhat intriguing. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 21:01:55
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Good point Wooly, that's worth exploring. I'm going to have to do some research on Moander and the other returned gods to see how I can effectively incorporate their return to the Realms. The return of Myrkul had already gotten me thinking about how I can shift Kelemvor's role.
I've never been a fan of races being inherently evil, so forces that can manipulate the various races into conflict and corrupt their deities intentions (like Moander) fits well in my mind.
Yeah. Also, it is a canon fact that drow are not corrupted like that, especially when you have 20% of them choosing to worship Eilistraee (among other deities), and when Ed himself said that all drow receive visions and dreams from her during their life and that while not many choose to abandon Lolth, many secretly yearn Eilistraee and what she represents. IMO Corellon making a mistake and wrongly cursing the whole race adds some depth to the conflict.
Moander corrupting Lolth could work, but I honestly prefer Shar, as -to my understanding- her ''corruption'' is more like a temptation, leading people to give in their grief/negative emtions and turning those into hatred towards the world (and Lolth and the drow are full of frustration and hatred for about everything). |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 20:17:25
Good point Wooly, that's worth exploring. I'm going to have to do some research on Moander and the other returned gods to see how I can effectively incorporate their return to the Realms. The return of Myrkul had already gotten me thinking about how I can shift Kelemvor's role.
I've never been a fan of races being inherently evil, so forces that can manipulate the various races into conflict and corrupt their deities intentions (like Moander) fits well in my mind.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 19:07:28
Here's another potential spin... Lolth is currently answering prayers in Moander's name. And we know Moander has previously been able to corrupt a deity, without their awareness...
What if Lolth was previously a happy, good-aligned member of the Seldarine? She encountered Moander someplace, and he hit her with his divine whammy. Rather than the more overt corruption of Tyche, he went for a more minor effect, and this caused Aruashnee's eventually fall to evil.
Similarly, you could spread this corruption from Lolth to her followers; mayhaps they were pushed into consuming a potion ("it's the new recipe for holy water, from Lolth herself!") that contained some of Moander's spores, and this corrupted them into what they later became.
Shar is a possibility, but I'm personally loathe to give her any more credit than is necessary -- her thrust to the forefront in 3E and 4E continues to leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I prefer a deity of corruption with a history of corrupting deities. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 18:45:33
Thanks for setting me straight Irennan. This is why I need to see how much of these ideas can hold water here on the Candlekeep boards...
Wooly's comments about Lolth being a demonic interloper from the outset made me think of another angle to approach this idea... What if Lolth is actually Graz'zt attempting to continually corrupt Corellon and the elves? Graz'zt does have a striking resemblance to Elves.
Here's another idea given weight by Ghaunadaur's involvement in the entire scenario, and it's steady ascension over the editions to the status of a Greater Deity. Perhaps Ghaunadaur is the power behind Lolth, and the instigator of animosity between the Orcs and the Elves. The cornerstone myth about the conflict between Corellon and Gruumsh involves Corellon blinding Gruumsh in one eye... Ghaunadaur's symbol is an Eye superimposed over a symbol similar to Shar's symbol. I wonder... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 18:18:34
How about if Lolth was always a demonic interloper? She appeared to the early drow, claiming to be a goddess, and got just enough worship to get some divine juice going on. After she was established as a deity, she joined the Seldarine. And then she later attacked, and everything flowed from there as we already have in canon.
In fact, you could spread it a bit further, and say that the early drow were regular elves, but that Lolth had corrupted them both physically and culturally, as part of her path to divinity. It could be that the original drow were regular elves that she crossbred with some outsider race, similar to the later fey'ri.
This could explain a lot of why the drow are similar to regular elves but have some notable differences (particularly their birthrate). And going that route also mitigates Corellon's banishment of them -- they had been corrupted from the start.
As another alternative, when Lolth was banished, she could have led/guided her followers underground, and their changes could have been directly and deliberately caused by her -- this was actually part of my original theory of their banishment, long before Elaine ever wrote a Realms novel.
If you go this route, then the one-size-fits-all banishment of all drow, good or evil, could be the heresy, created to help drive drow hatred of their surface cousins. Being deliberately wronged in an us-against-them scenario is a great recipe for hostility. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 17:16:07
It would be cool if Araushnee wanted that, but in canon it sounds unlikely. She brought Gruumsh and a bunch of random evil deities into Arvandor, and they outright attacked (that is how things are told in Elaine's ''Evermeet''), her people would have never wanted peace after that. There's also the issue of Lolth and Vhaeraun attacking Sehanine in preparation for the invasion, their trying to frame Eilistraee (which was a premediated act, through that tapestry that Araushnee wove for Corellon and that was meant to attract her daughter's arrow) and all that stuff.
However in your FR you could say that the myth is just Corellon's version of the story (but Lolth's currently being what she is would kind of throw that out of the window. Really, I could understand her exile fueling hatred towards Corellon and maybe even her wanting to punish him by hurting the elves, but all the rest? Rendering her own people's life utter crap?), or that Araushnee originally intended to create peace between orcs and elfs, but that -if you still want to go for that Shar heresy- the whispers of the Lady of Loss made her give in to her anger and grief and try to force her vision of peace through violence. Perhaps (but IMO it is very much of a stretch) you could also say that Araushnee's original intention actually was to bring orcs and other deities to Arvandor to discuss of pacific coexistence, but that she was deceived by them (this, however, would make her look very stupid/naive, and still wouldn't explain the whole matter with Sehanine or bringing Ghaunadaur in).
If you are going for Corellon's ''fall from grace'' in your realms, consider the chance of making it so that the events that are going to unfold in your game would also have a chance to make him change his stance. You have Silverymoon allied with Many Arrows (so elves/humans/orcs/others together), there's also Eilistraee returning with the Sundering, and she could influence her father, especially now that she is once again starting to bring the hope of a new life to the drow (and that Corellon has already accepted her followers in Arvandor). Pride and vanity come to a certain point, but when confronted with hard evidence, Corellon will have to adapt or lose followers (since -with your alliance- there are already groups of elves going for a change of stance towards other races). |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 16:36:23
Irennan, thanks for the link. I've never thought of Corellon in a positive light, but I was trying not to just skewer him right out of the gates...
I have long thought that it's a strong possibility that the only true Seldarine in the Realms is Corellon, and that considering the roots of the term Seldarine, it may be a title that he gave to himself. I have always perceived him as an entity driven in many ways by vanity, in part because of how he cursed the Drow, and in part because of his perception that elves are the only true "people".
Additionally, I tend to perceive Corellon as the type that tells his own version of events that indulges his ego as the "Great One". Which brings me to my third heresy regarding Lolth's rebellion against Corellon.
Why would Lolth create an alliance with Gruumsh to invade Arvandor? Lolth's original name Auruanshee which vaguely translates to "Light" and "Inspiration", and she is posited as the Goddess of Destiny. Is it possible that Auruanshee thought that true destiny of the elves was to reconcile with the Orcs? And that Auruanshee had actually brought Gruumsh to Arvandor to broker a cosmological peace between the Elves and the Orcs? Only to be met with Corellon's rage and cursed?
This ties in somewhat with the storyline of my Realms games, in that that the end of 4th edition saw the redemption of the Dark Elves, and an Alliance forged between Many Arrows and Silverymoon. I am thinking that this could be a catalyst to reveal Corellon's spiteful side, possibly tying into a relationship with Oghma (who is also billed as an interloper deity, that is invested in his own version of cosmological history). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 15:41:49
Corellon was never ''pure'' to begin with. I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's evil, but he did make mistakes that doomed the whole dark elven race (namely cursing a whole race and -assuming that it was a mistake- doing nothing to fix it). There's a whole thread on that, if you want to have a look: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20091
Lolth and Corellon being the same deties sounds a bit weird, since they birthed Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (but then we don't know how gods birth other gods. Or maybe Corellon and Lolth weren't always deities and gave birth to their children before ascending). Also, he would have to have pretty heavy personality disorders in order to fight against himself (unless the whole conflict is just a facade that he is keeping up for some obscure reason). I would prefer if Shar were behind the whole matter of Lolth's crazy betrayal and sparked the conflict between her and the Seldarine, rather than the two of them being the same (even if some Sharran could decide to spread that voice). Shar may have capitalized on Lolth's unfulfilled ambitions and her anger caused by how -according to the myth- she felt that Corellon was condescending in her regards. Maybe even now Lolth is actually being used by Shar to spread hate, suffering and loss among the dark elves (and fair one as well, given all the deaths that their war caused). Perhaps Eilistraee's alliance with Selune and Mystra (and the fact that Mystra chose the body of the stillborn daughter of a follower of the Dark Maiden as the recipient for the soul of the 7th sister) is due to that (I mean, what reason would they have to be allied, rather than just on friendly terms? A common enemy sounds good for that).
As for Corellon being the only true Seldarine, we know that the whole pantheon is composed of interloper deities. Perhaps most of them were subsumed by Torilian gods upon entering the sphere (I mean, the only explanation for Sehanine=Selune is that the latter took over the former, even if two good deties with similar interests fighting to the death just 'cause feels really off to me), while some others (with more specific spheres of influence, like Shevarash, Erevan, Eilistraee&Vhaeraun and so on) remained. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 15:18:04
Ayrik, I like your thought process on this, it offers some intriguing insights. One of the other small details that I noticed regarding the Mystra/Leira connection was the change in Mystra's holy symbol. The adoption of a modified version of Selune's symbol, replacing the eyes with a rising red mist.
In light of Ayrik's comments regarding the pantheon itself being an illusion, I'll bring up another heretical theory I've been kicking around. It's been alluded to many times that Selune and Shar may be the same entity... two sides of the same coin.
Also, it has been revealed that multiple gods of the Elven pantheon were simply aspects of other gods...What if Corellon is the only true Seldarine?... and What if Lolth and Corellon are actually the same entity?... or What if Lolth is actually an aspect of Shar, in the same way that Moonbow was an aspect of Selune?
The rationale of this second heresy being that the name "Darine" means "Great One" and the meaning of the word "Sel" means "Self". Therefore, the term "Seldarine" suggests that there is only one.
I have been thinking about this, because I am considering having Corellon have a fall from grace in my Realms (or maybe he was never pure?), that somehow ties in with the Redemption of the Dark Elves, and the Return of Eiliastree.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Conjecture? |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 00:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Leira was a member of this old pantheon. Could she see the world as being nothing more than a grand illusion, all the people within it (even her own worshippers) as an impenetrably false reality? Did her unique vantage point allow her to actually pierce the otherwise impenetrable illusion of reality to see the underlying fundamental truths beneath some universal facade? I note that AD&D 2E priests of Leira could be driven insane by true seeing magics which forced them to confront the true appearance of things - would Leira herself face such insanity if likewise forced to behold the true appearance of reality? For all Leira knew, with all her godlike and somewhat omniscient intelligence, she was merely a typical consciousness (indeed, perhaps the only conscious entity) existing within a universe constructed entirely out of pure ultimate solipsism. If so, if Leira is essentially the creator of the universe in its entirety (or at least the entirety of Realmspace) - the "greater" entities like Ao and Mystra, all the other deities of the pantheon, and all the peoples of the world (and the planes?) might simply be quirky manifestations of different aspects of Leira illusionary creation, illusions so carefully crafted that even their own creator cannot suspect that ultimate truths lie behind them.
For years now, I've thought something of this sort was going on in the background and await its reveal and fruition. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 23:19:01
The entire Avatar Crisis was precipitated by the narrow-minded perceptions of the Faerunian deities. Each deity was limited to seeing (and even believing) the world and its peoples existed only as objects of their individual portfolios - Talos saw the world (and all the things in it) only as targets to be destroyed, Tempus saw the world as a place of war and battle and soldiers, Tyr was so symbolically blinded by pure law and justice that he was literally blinded by Ao as a consequence. (I ignore the Tablets of Fate, and the actions of the Dead Three to claim them, because the whole notion was just a big narrative MacGuffin used to drive the plot.)
Leira was a member of this old pantheon. Could she see the world as being nothing more than a grand illusion, all the people within it (even her own worshippers) as an impenetrably false reality? Did her unique vantage point allow her to actually pierce the otherwise impenetrable illusion of reality to see the underlying fundamental truths beneath some universal facade? I note that AD&D 2E priests of Leira could be driven insane by true seeing magics which forced them to confront the true appearance of things - would Leira herself face such insanity if likewise forced to behold the true appearance of reality? For all Leira knew, with all her godlike and somewhat omniscient intelligence, she was merely a typical consciousness (indeed, perhaps the only conscious entity) existing within a universe constructed entirely out of pure ultimate solipsism. If so, if Leira is essentially the creator of the universe in its entirety (or at least the entirety of Realmspace) - the "greater" entities like Ao and Mystra, all the other deities of the pantheon, and all the peoples of the world (and the planes?) might simply be quirky manifestations of different aspects of Leira illusionary creation, illusions so carefully crafted that even their own creator cannot suspect that ultimate truths lie behind them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 22:53:10
A self-aware simulacrum ascended to divinity? The Realms has magic and miracles and high-fantasy and plenty of divine-powered soap opera, but this implied connection still seems highly improbable, lol.
The Ariel-vs-Leira implication is intriguing, but then I wonder if perhaps the reverse of Manx (Xnam) could perhaps be the name of a fiend?
Leira has always - by her very nature (or supernature?) - been entirely enigmatic and inscrutable. Whereas (old school) Mystra has always been linked even eponymously with the "mysteries" of magic. But still it seems to me that Leira was essentially subordinate to Mystra, illusions (and illusionists) were always a subset within global magic. Some of the best illusions don't require magic, but in a world which includes magic (and which includes magical ways to detect and dispel illusions) a goddess of illusion would require full mastery of illusion magics to properly maintain her exalted station. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 02:07:57
Though its not the particular storyline I'd go for, I'm glad to see someone else embracing the "Leira's death was an illusion/fake" theory. I do like the idea that somehow Leira and Ariel Manx are linked somehow though. It would be interesting if Ariel/Midnight were actually some form of intelligent construct like a simulacrum (kind of like Alias) created by Mystra using some of Leira's "essence", and all of her memories of her childhood are false ones (i.e. lies). Mystra could have similar creations in Toril even now made from the "essence" of Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, (or other "magic" deities) that she uses as her servants. In fact... maybe some of the Chosen are exactly this and they don't even know it. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 15:29:44
Regarding SaMoCon's comments... I haven't nailed this down completely yet, but I have been toying with the idea of incorporating much of the conjecture and disputes over the various changes in the Realms from edition to edition. And in this regard much of the uncertainty surrounding the Realms in 5th edition fits nicely into this.
Essentially, by assuming that all of the recorded history and cosmology of the Realms is Oghma's "official" version of events, I want leave the door open for my players to indulge any number of theories about the "true" history and cosmology of the Realms. In order to give some context as to why this is relevant I will breifly explain the circumstances of my major 3rd Edition and 4th Edition campaigns.
3rd Edition: The players were the Heroes of Halruua, valiantly defending it against the newly resurrected Bane. The campaign concluded when the players traveled to Nimbral to find an Artifact of Leira. They found out that not only was their Wizard a clone of Manshoon that had been hidden in Halruua, but that Cyric was the true power behind Halruua. (This all ended up working nicely with the official events that transitioned 3rd Edition to 4th Edition).
4th Edition: The players were students at Candlekeep, that stumbled upon the wreckage of the Skyship that was used in the 3rd Edition campaign. The campaign concluded when the half-orc and the half-elf found out that they were actually brothers born of an Uthgardt Shaman of Selune, and were heirs to the Kingdom of Many Arrows, and Silverymoon, respectively. An alliance between the Uthgardt Tribes, Many Arrows, and Silverymoon was forged. (This ended up working nicely with the return Eiliastree and her Drow followers to the surface of Faerun in 5th Edition).
So, part of the plotline I am considering involves Oghma becoming fed up with the continued emergence of "dangerous ideas" that contradict his official version of events. Insisting that all Orcs and Drow are evil, that the returned gods are a harbinger of the end times in Faerun, and that any gods he has declared to be dead must be returned to that state.
...Anyone else have any ideas on this? |
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