| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 23:57:06
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?442821-The-Realms-WILL-Be-Updated!
WotC's Chris Perkins and Mike Mearls both mentioned the possibility of Forgotten Realms updates on Twitter today. A chap called Montgomery Headstrom tweeted at both of them - to Perkins he said "I don't understand why you guys did the Sundering if you weren't going to update the Realms. Can you clarify that for me?" and the Mearls he said "if WOTC isn't interested in updating the realms would corporate allow kickstarter drive to let Ed Greenwood do it?" Both replied to his his comments, confirming that they do, in fact, intend to update the Realms. Thanks to Adrian for the scoop.
Montgomery: if WOTC isn't interested in updating the realms would corporate allow kickstarter drive to let Ed Greenwood do it?
Mike Mearls: who sez we aren't interested in updating it?
Montgomery: I don't understand why you guys did the Sundering if you weren't going to update the Realms. Can you clarify that for me?
Chris Perkins: The Sundering allowed us to bring back things that the setting had lost over the years. We ARE updating the Realms.
Well, nothing really new on a possible FRCS, since these ''updates'' may take any form, including the ''it will be something'' that Perkins referred in a previous interview.
Anyway, I thought that some of you might have wanted to read this, so I posted it here. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Old Man Harpell |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 02:37:45
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that new maps would be more useful to me than any book... I don't even want a retcon to eliminate the Spellplague, I'm ok with apocalypse level events. The spellplague seemed like exactly the kind of thing Cyric would want to unleash on Toril.
I could even live with them releasing piecemeal adventures that update the lore, if it is accompanied by a simple declaration that says the post-Sundering geography is now the same map from 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Edition. It would save WotC a ton of work, and probably satisfy the people that want to use the Forgotten Realms as a setting.
On the other hand, if that kind of simple declaration can't be made. I want a top-to-bottom fully detailed 5th Edition FRCS complete with exhaustively detailed new maps, new monsters, new spells, new feats, new class kits, new magic items, etc.
The possibility that they intend piecemeal material and produce a comprehensive guide should be taken as something that could very well be in the cards. Consider:
What we have now is the bit-by-bit approach. They release a small amount of material, including a decent smattering of lore, on a quasi-regular timetable (like we see with Dragon Queen and Elemental Evil). Over time, the lore builds up, bit by bit, until all they have to do is assemble what they've already produced, take what Sire Greenwood has given them, fill in the gaps, and voila, instant FRCG. Granted, this may just be a hopeful byproduct of my 'new Realmslore'-starved brain, but the webz have produced more bizarre theories for other things that were much less likely and yet managed to materialize. I'm trying to keep an optimistic face on all of this.
As for maps, I would like everything on it, maybe even a separate 'Atlas of Toril'. Faerun, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Anchorome, Katashaka, Osse - all of it. Even if we don't get comprehensive political information, natural geography should be something they could give us with relative (ymmv) ease.
I can dream, yes? 
- OMH |
| froglegg |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 20:59:27
Mr.Markustay I am afraid that the window of opportunity has closed.
John |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 17:17:56
I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and say that new maps would be more useful to me than any book... I don't even want a retcon to eliminate the Spellplague, I'm ok with apocalypse level events. The spellplague seemed like exactly the kind of thing Cyric would want to unleash on Toril.
I could even live with them releasing piecemeal adventures that update the lore, if it is accompanied by a simple declaration that says the post-Sundering geography is now the same map from 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Edition. It would save WotC a ton of work, and probably satisfy the people that want to use the Forgotten Realms as a setting.
On the other hand, if that kind of simple declaration can't be made. I want a top-to-bottom fully detailed 5th Edition FRCS complete with exhaustively detailed new maps, new monsters, new spells, new feats, new class kits, new magic items, etc. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 23:38:11
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
His maps are nice, but nothing beats the map from 3E. That was, hands down, the most perfect fantasy map I've ever seen.
Is it a bad thing that I still prefer the vastness of the 2e maps? Don't get me wrong, I like the cleanness of the 3e map, but at the same time it shrunk spaces that DMs could play without being disturbed by future products.
I don't get any "crowded" feel from the 3e maps. Even with Markustay's and HandsomeRob's additions of all the canon places they could find, it's a lot of really, really empty wilderness out there. Geographically, you can fit entire nations within other nations without stretching anything. Lore-wise, you need some work to figure out the interactions between your new stuff and what's out there, of course.
If you want an example, look at my post in the signature (that reminds me I didn't update it in ages...). It's not a new nation, strictly speaking, but I made up about fifteen polities and fit them into Sespech, and meshed everything into (most of) the canon lore. Geography was *by far* the easiest part. It actually helped me more than got in the way.
Doesn't mean I liked the warping of the map in 3e, though. I got used to it, and I can see the argument for it having been done, but ideally I'd have developed Erlkazar (for example) instead of smashing it into the end of the Deepwash and barely talking about its existence if at all.
Bottom line, like I often say, I don't think there's such thing as an over-developed world ("developed" in the sense of details being fleshed out for all places). I'm more of a Realms fan than a Realms DM, but when I do DM in the Realms, I'd rather have a place I can modify to suit my ideas than have a whole lot of empty space to put my stuff in. Empty places don't fire up my imagination - vivid, sensible and engaging descriptions do. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 20:12:59
Okay, thanks. I will check out Enworld. It's mainly newer lore I am looking for, so I am pretty much am in the same boat as everyone else. But there seems to be at least a little 5e lore that has been released outside the Sundering novels, which so far, has been my best source of knowledge on 5e (this is why I really want a FRCG for 5e).
But I would also like to know about WotC's latest moves, so it sounds like Enworld would be my best bet. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 20:07:24
EN World usually has the latest news shortly after WotC themselves publish it. If you want lore, then you have many people willing to help you here and (with some luck, namely not running into NDAs) Ed can even give you official lore on what you wish to know (so, if you have questions regarding the 5e FR, then try to ask, Ed's answers and novels may very well be the only real source of updated lore for the Realms for a long time...). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 20:00:38
I would like to see more info about 5e. I actually think it holds some promise. I think a lot of the negativity stems from the fact that there was a lot of hype and buildup for 5e, and while the novels were pretty good, I don't think they delivered exactly what people were expecting, and while there has been some product release, it didn't live up to our expectations. At this point, I think both Wizards and fans are gun-shy. As fans, we're emotionally and financially invested in the Realms. We care about what happens, and we want to buy products, but only if we think they're good.
This is going to show my naivete, but what are the best sites for finding info on the Realms (like new lore and other updates?) I honestly find the Wizards site hard to navigate, and thr last time I went on there, it didn't like my password, and when I tried to retrieve it, I never got the "change password" email. But I suppose their site is a logical place. I keep meaning to check out Enworld, but I don't have time to spend hours on various sites looking for info. I am a fan of the Realms, but sometimes I feel so out of the loop. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 16:52:18
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
His maps are nice, but nothing beats the map from 3E. That was, hands down, the most perfect fantasy map I've ever seen.
Is it a bad thing that I still prefer the vastness of the 2e maps? Don't get me wrong, I like the cleanness of the 3e map, but at the same time it shrunk spaces that DMs could play without being disturbed by future products.
I am torn between both. It just depends ob whether I'm DMing and want to plop an extra small hamlet on the map or I want to get to the next town quicker. I solve my dilemma by calling both maps innacurate depictions of the actual distance. They are instead fair approximations.
I do agree that a simple map would suffice for me. I'm making my own political changes myself.
|
| Rymac |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 08:00:25
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
His maps are nice, but nothing beats the map from 3E. That was, hands down, the most perfect fantasy map I've ever seen.
Is it a bad thing that I still prefer the vastness of the 2e maps? Don't get me wrong, I like the cleanness of the 3e map, but at the same time it shrunk spaces that DMs could play without being disturbed by future products. |
| GungHo |
Posted - 29 May 2015 : 15:32:23
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
I would just like a map.
In the style of Mike Schley would be nice. His style and coloring complements the Realms maps that came before, with the exception of the dull palette used in 4E (Still don't understand why they choose that).
His maps are nice, but nothing beats the map from 3E. That was, hands down, the most perfect fantasy map I've ever seen.
Agreed. And that's why I want the map. The map tells plenty of stories. The map tells me what's changed. The map tells me if some of the weird Abeir-Toril collision was undone and how much was undone. I can fill in a lot of the details, but the map tells me where they were/are expecting things to go. |
| Baptor |
Posted - 29 May 2015 : 04:25:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
I would just like a map.
In the style of Mike Schley would be nice. His style and coloring complements the Realms maps that came before, with the exception of the dull palette used in 4E (Still don't understand why they choose that).
His maps are nice, but nothing beats the map from 3E. That was, hands down, the most perfect fantasy map I've ever seen. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 22:56:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
People will forgive and forget the 'Jar Jar Binks' in time. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFu_dxwU-sk
Let the hate flow through you.
|
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 20:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
I would just like a map.
In the style of Mike Schley would be nice. His style and coloring complements the Realms maps that came before, with the exception of the dull palette used in 4E (Still don't understand why they choose that). |
| GungHo |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 16:07:52
I would just like a map. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:49:28
Oh right, that was kind of obvious  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:45:47
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
[quote]
What do you mean by EGG?
Ernest Gary Gygax, co founder of D&D. His world was Greyhawk. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:15:11
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think that TSR/WotC lost the battle for campaign settings a long time before Paizo came along. I've always seen Paizo's strength in the fact that they have one campaign setting. They have unity of theme and content and everything ultimately ties back in to Golarion. And even if you are only into their slant on the 3.X mechanics, they keep throwing Golarion hooks at you when you access their products to get those mechanics. It's pretty clear that enough hooks have held and they look like they thrive.
WotC are in no man's land when it comes to campaign settings. They moved on from GH due to IP issues and to spite EGG. A splintering of the fanbase ensued. They moved on to grand campaign storytelling with DL which some loved, but many felt was a great place to read about but not too brilliant to play the game. Another splintering of the fanbase. Then they bring in the Realms which is intended to have "mass appeal", which it does for those who haven't given up on TSR/WotC's campaign worlds already. And then the tale goes on with Birthright, Darksun, Eberron, GH reboot etc. etc. More and more splintering of the fanbase to the point where you can't actually produce campaign specific material because the sub-set of campaign setting fans who play your D&D game isn't big enough to generate real sales and revenue on those products. Let's not kid ourselves. The time and effort and resources that would have to be devoted to make a 5E FRCG that was universally acclaimed as "great" is probably not going to be reflected in the return on that investment. I can understand why WotC are biding their time on an FRCG, but ultimately I see their decison as being a simple one.
-- George Krashos
What do you mean by EGG? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:07:38
And thats why I think D&D and FR can still be salvaged - by using FR as the 'lynchpin' to anchor the rest of the product line.
TSR/WotC's biggest problem financially is their biggest asset fan-wise; they don't have just one world, they have a mutliverse. Its linked to Planescape and Spelljammer (and Ravenloft), but those settings are too 'niche' to be the keystone for a relaunch.
So what we need is a very generic fantasy setting that has ties to 'all other worlds', and has a large influence on the cosmology itself. The Forgotten Realms fits that bill perfectly. Paizo is starting to move beyond Golarion with some of its products (including a trip to Earth!), but its making sure EVERYTHING ties right back to Golarion. That would work for the Realms, but we have to change the way people think about it... and that starts with US.
So from now on, FR is not 'a setting', it is the centerpiece of a much larger setting. Its a springboard that can lead anywhere (even to Golarion!) Thats what Ed intended - a place with ancient connections to many other planes and worlds. Embrace its true nature, and it will rise again.
Tagline:
"Imagine a place that can take you anywhere... where adventure awaits in one's own backyard, or on a hundred other worlds. A land most people only remember in myth, yet is just around the corner from everywhere. Welcome to The Forgotten Realms."
Now slap a fancy TV ad on that and run it just before the holidays, and watch the kids just eat it up. If you really want it to be a whopping success, create a (GOOD) cartoon to go with it and launch that at the same time. Drizzt stories would work for that - a young Drizzt just starting out; an angsty 'teen' trying to break from tradition. Someone 'non-white' who most people fear and hate. Thats got teen craze written all over it - he is practically manufactured for today's adolescent market.
Bottom Line: Stop pointing to all that is bad with the Realms, and start focusing on its gems. People will forgive and forget the 'Jar Jar Binks' in time. |
| Snow |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 03:08:40
George makes a terrific point - couldn't of said it better myself.
Paizo was savvy to craft the Golarion Campaign world so that it had near unlimited modularity & expansion capabilities to encompass new-&-thematic nations & geographical locales. To appeal to all different types of Fantasy RPG flavors (high magic, low magic, ethnicity-specific, technology-specific, etc.). Granted, with overbloat and shoddy QC oversight, this can lead to potential disaster. But Paizo is doing okay with that so far. Granted, they'll be adding some new Golarion geographies that are upcoming in the product pipeline. And that may be a tipping point.
I just wish that Toril's various continents could've been handled similarly by TSR & WotC over the years. So much wasted potential. :-( |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 03:04:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
That's not an issue of elitism or the Elite so much as a portion of the fanbase having a strong opinion related to an identifiable set of changes implemented during a specific initiative. Disagreements with the published material existed before, but it is undeniable the 4E changes raised the divide between a notable portion of fans and the company. There were lurkers who came out of the woodwork telling WotC on their own forums they did not like the direction of the setting based on the last pages of GHotR and certainly by the release of the FRCG.
Indeed why bother?
The Paizo community is (imo) more active and more supportive. Also, don't forget there are fewer Eberron fans there telling people the Realms suck (insert pages of discussion and pile on). That happened regularly right on WotC's own main forums. The Realms has a perception problem and a eager crowd of negative cheerleaders. This predated 4E, and even 3E. It goes beyond the niche community we have here.
Recall it was WotC who justified the changes to clear away the clutter/baggage/lack of new story potential. Instantly they invalidate the opinions and defense of the setting many fans have contributed time and energy into discussing in a positive light over the years. The fans supported the setting and highlighted different ways of looking at things, how the rumblings of naysayers were blowing a few details out of proportion. Even as the Greyhawkers and Eberronites and DIY-Homebrewers and anti-Drow, anti-Chosen crowds hammered away at the FR community, the fans were supporting the setting.
Now? Why help a setting when the publisher didn't believe in their product.
All most people here are saying is "Here's what we want to see," if you want our money. Wizards can take that advice or leave it.
Other companies are spotting the niches unfilled by Wizards and they are getting my money, Pathfinder, 13th Age, DCCRPG, Numemera, Fate, Dungeon World, AGE, S&W, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them?
Indeed, why should they buy in? Why should any community censor themselves from critique and review of a company's products to protect the marketability of a for-profit company's product line? Note the negative reviews are not limited to this forum, compare the Amazon reviews of the 4E FRCG to other similar products. View that with the realization it is a sample of a much larger consumer base that this niche forum represents.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case.
It's mostly not our fault. Have we forgotten the disagreements and controversies involving some of the biggest franchises in fandom:
Marvel: Spiderman 3, X-Men 3, Wolverine 1, Amazing Spiderman 2, Iron Man 3, Daredevil, Elektra, etc.
DC Comics: Green Lantern, Man of Steel, the Nolanization/Snyderization of the DC cinematic universe.
Star Wars: The prequels with Jar Jar Binks and Midichlorians
Their detractors have not managed to prevent them from being multibillion dollar, international, transmedia pop culture phenomena.
What about something in the fantasy genre:
- Game of Thrones: Books vs Show
- Tolkien's Middle-Earth: The Hobbit as a movie trilogy!?
Again, in terms of niche FR is a tiny fish in a large sea filled with fracking leviathans. Those other companies are able to handle themselves well enough (billions well enough) given the massive scrutiny. If FR can't withstand a little criticism, it doesn't even belong in the Z-grade level let alone as an A-grade IP.
Those other franchises do have a pulse on what the fans think. They don't listen to fans for the sake of the fans, they listen to fans because they want to rake in the big bucks.
Marvel: Spiderman in the MCU, relaunch of Daredevil closer to his gritty roots, fixing Captain America's costume from Avengers 1, Deadpool seemingly close to the 4th wall breaking comics.
DC: A interlinked cinematic universe. Seemingly an adaptation of the Dark Knight Returns for BvS: Dawn of Justice, a Suicide Squad movie with fan favorite characters matched to solid (and some award-winning) actors.
Star Wars: Minimizing the prequel stuff, getting the old primaries back in.
Wizards needs to get their game plan together on multiple levels. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 02:59:15
I would like to see more creativity too.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to not want to engage with the Realms (that is, create custom Realms material from scratch) because WotC is not supporting the setting with the same zeal it once did, but I think the itch to create is something that does not go away; it just finds other outlets.
So for me it's enough to create new material for its own sake--it's just like drawing or painting or crafting or building. You do it for the enjoyment and you don't worry about what else is going on in the world, especially with WotC.
EDIT: and if you do it right, then you can inspire other Realms fans to be creative. Short of sitting at the gaming table to play the game, inspiring others and helping hem with their campaigns is the most anyone can hope to accomplish on a forum space. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 02:56:06
I think that TSR/WotC lost the battle for campaign settings a long time before Paizo came along. I've always seen Paizo's strength in the fact that they have one campaign setting. They have unity of theme and content and everything ultimately ties back in to Golarion. And even if you are only into their slant on the 3.X mechanics, they keep throwing Golarion hooks at you when you access their products to get those mechanics. It's pretty clear that enough hooks have held and they look like they thrive.
WotC are in no man's land when it comes to campaign settings. They moved on from GH due to IP issues and to spite EGG. A splintering of the fanbase ensued. They moved on to grand campaign storytelling with DL which some loved, but many felt was a great place to read about but not too brilliant to play the game. Another splintering of the fanbase. Then they bring in the Realms which is intended to have "mass appeal", which it does for those who haven't given up on TSR/WotC's campaign worlds already. And then the tale goes on with Birthright, Darksun, Eberron, GH reboot etc. etc. More and more splintering of the fanbase to the point where you can't actually produce campaign specific material because the sub-set of campaign setting fans who play your D&D game isn't big enough to generate real sales and revenue on those products. Let's not kid ourselves. The time and effort and resources that would have to be devoted to make a 5E FRCG that was universally acclaimed as "great" is probably not going to be reflected in the return on that investment. I can understand why WotC are biding their time on an FRCG, but ultimately I see their decison as being a simple one.
-- George Krashos
|
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:58:16
Not sure if I'd call it elitism, but there have been cases with people being hostile to fans of 4E, to the point where they pretend that they don't even exist. And 5E might turn out the same way to new fans if this pessimism keeps being cultivated.
If a new player happens to come along a DnD forum and reads all the negativity, it wouldn't be surprising if they're driven away from the FR setting.
But of course a large chunk of the responsibilty lays on WotC. They need to put more good content out there if they want fans to be engaged with the setting. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them? Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case.
This I do see, and agree. I think we could do better if we put out more threads and discussions like Jeremy's Cormyr thread, more homebrew classes for any and all editions, more... creativity.
I think that would be better for our PR than some of the discussions we have about whether WotC is doing the right thing or not. I do what I can, most of my creativity is being poured into my current campaign, and there's threads already for that. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:12:51
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I've never encountered any elitism with FR. I've been gaming for 20 years now, but only dabbled in FR over the years. I didn't seriously start running an FR campaign until 5-6 years ago and as soon as I signed up here I started asking questions and then posting theories and now I'm writing up my own campaigns.
At no point did I encounter anyone being unhelpful or withholding information, nor did I ever feel excluded from a conversation, if I wanted to join in I simply read about the subject and dived into it.
True WoTC haven't included me in their design process, nor have I been consulted by the FR greats when they have been developing their favourite areas, but then again my favourite computer game publishing houses also don't include me in their work, nor do my favourite authors ask me for ideas.
The only elitism I have found has been a few fans that get snotty when you break canon in your own game or get livid when you say canon is not important to you. Other than them I have found the Realms fans to be a good lot of people.
I have to agree, for the better part. I've sometimes had days when I just don't feel like dealing with the Statler and Waldorf level of grouch that can crop up here, but thread's like Jeremy's Cormyr/Idea Muscle thread or Diffain's Knight Errant of Mystra thread keep me coming back.
I enjoy keeping up with the FR news here, though thanks to Twitter I usually have already heard about it before it gets posted here. And many of the scribes have been more than helpful refining my own campaign ideas when I ask.
It can be intimidating when I'm posting a new question or thread. I'm always worried my "Search - Fu" has failed and I'll get a "you idiot, that was right here if you'd just searched for it," reply, but nobody has ever done that that I'm aware of, and most of my concern is probably just me over fretting anyway.
Generally, most discussions on new Realms products are fun, at least for the first few pages. After that, they do start to divert and become less fun, but no more so than any Facebook thread doing the same thing. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:12:13
Well, certain 'fans' - I am talking about those of us who eat, drink, and sleep Realmslore - find that many of the decisions the company makes to be 'unintuitive' (and thats the kindest word I can use there, conidering all thats been said over the past few years).
So here you have The Elite - the Die-hard, Fanbois who really know the Realms better then anyone (even many designers) - and a lot of us are saying things like "thats NOT the Forgotten Realms!", or worse, saying "everything WotC produces in the past few years is utter shite!" (and once again, we have all actually heard much worse). Thats the elitism I am talking about.
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them? Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case. |
| Mr Dark |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 23:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I've never encountered any elitism with FR. I've been gaming for 20 years now, but only dabbled in FR over the years. I didn't seriously start running an FR campaign until 5-6 years ago and as soon as I signed up here I started asking questions and then posting theories and now I'm writing up my own campaigns.
At no point did I encounter anyone being unhelpful or withholding information, nor did I ever feel excluded from a conversation, if I wanted to join in I simply read about the subject and dived into it.
True WoTC haven't included me in their design process, nor have I been consulted by the FR greats when they have been developing their favourite areas, but then again my favourite computer game publishing houses also don't include me in their work, nor do my favourite authors ask me for ideas.
The only elitism I have found has been a few fans that get snotty when you break canon in your own game or get livid when you say canon is not important to you. Other than them I have found the Realms fans to be a good lot of people. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 22:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
Here's a non exhaustive list of things they've said:
1. We will update the Realms.
2. The way we update the Realms will be different from the way we used to do this kind of thing.
3. We are already updating the Realms through novels, adventure paths, etc.
4. There is no plan to make a CG at this time.
5. Big campaign books are a thing of the past.
It didn't make much sense to me until I read your post. Now it fits, and it makes sense too, though I don't really like it.
As for those that still think a book is on its way, I urge you to consider what's been said. All of it points to an update for sure and a continued focus on the Realms, but I think it also points away from a CG tome.
Then that would be a mistake. Paizo sold not only the Inner Sea World Guide as a big hardback for the PFRPG proper, they had a softcover gazetteer before that as an initial precursor for their 3E Adventure Path days. They keep the PDF price of the World Guide artificially low (for the amount of pages in the World Guide) to help increase adoption of the setting along with the rules they were designed to accommodate. They don't do this just to be nice to fans, it increases adoption rate and builds their fanbase.
There is great utility in a single tome serving as the common touchstone for an entire edition. By the next opportunity for a 5E FRCS, somewhere in 2016 let's say optimistically, the 4E FRCG would be approaching eight years old, out of print and out of date. True there will be the PDFs, but that doesn't get you visibility in game stores where Wizard's Encounters setup is actually making progress in getting people to play the game. Perhaps dozens of regional gazetteers are a thing of the past (not really, since Paizo and others are still putting them out in some form), but a primary campaign setting book I would think is feasible and even ideal.
New plan, meet the old plan!
As for update the setting through novels and adventures, that puts the onus on the reader to track down each volume to decipher the changes. We're back to square one in terms of having a backlog of lore to sift through in order to gather the pertinent information. The Realms needs a source to give the big picture with some details to get people into the setting, not dozens of snippets to collect before one has a decent idea of the setting.
"The Status Quo"
In regards to the setting self-resetting to a "status quo" despite the changes, it's not as if fans haven't been clamoring for a slow down and realistic approach to RSEs. This has been the sentiment for years. That Wizards decides to chase the high of RSEs while wishing to keep that baseline setup does not make it 'Okay.' It just makes for shoddy products and dangerous policies.
Just learned today that DC Comics reset their reset, they've undone their continuity up to Infinite Crisis and restored most of their alternate Earths as options for stories. The Realms is less venerable, but in no better shape really. I expect an event in the next edition or so to bring us back to 1357 or thereabouts.
Forum Decor
The flip side of that coin regarding this forum being seen as full of haters, most people who would care to say that wouldn't have played in the Realms anyway. The people who claim that never, and I mean never, liked the Realms to begin with. They say they find the changes more palatable, but that was because the Realms were utterly repulsive to them to begin with. To a small vocal faction on the internet, Ed Greenwood (dressed as Elminster) kicked their puppy to death right before their eyes, and RA Salvatore (dressed as Drizzt) helped, somehow. Probably urinated on the twitching corpse. That is the level of insult they feel the work of these writers and their setting have inflicted upon them.
The real fans who like the Realms, including the 4E changes, they're here with us, talking with us, fighting with us. Then there are fans who don't care for these forums, not in a negative way, but these forums hold no weight to their enjoyment of their version of the Realms. I feel confident in saying this because I haven't really found a unique community of 4E Realms fans with any sort of activity. The WotC forums are a ghost town, even more so for the Living Realms section. You go to any other general gaming forum and you'll encounter more of the Realms haters who feel Ed owes them a personal apology and should swear to never put pen to paper nor finger to keyboard ever again. You will meet a similar group waiting in line for their personal apology from Bob Salvatore, or Terry Brooks, or Robert Jordan, or George RR Martin, et cetera ad nauseum. There are those who want to dig up Tolkien and use his corpse as a pinata for his "standardization" of fantasy. There are those who spit on Robert E. Howard for his "dumb barbarian" stories.
The difference is the fans of these writers can defend them. The fans of the Realms could and did in the 3E era with each toxic thread about how annoying Drizzt was or overpowered the Chosen where. That was up until 4E when Wizards sided with the Realms haters and gave their perspective full center stage credence. There is no defending the Realms when the publisher and IP holder is against it.
I don't buy the line about Realms "Elitists" being the root of this. If anything it is the elitists out there who think their ideas or likes are better and superior than any version of the Realms that are the cause of this. However, WotC certainly bought into that thinking.
That's what the Realms Haters really want, a realization of the imagined boogeymen, these masses of ignorant snobby FR fans blissfully loving their derivative generic setting that they can point to, rip into, and stomp on. They salivate at the thought of such confrontation, they seek to prove themselves worthy of whatever other pet cause or setting they believe in. No to say elitist Realms fans don't exist, they exist for any setting (ex: Marvel vs DC, Star Wars vs Star Trek, etc.).
Quick Pop Culture Aside
Why is the "Abramsverse" Star Trek disliked by a portion of old Trek fans? Because the creative team of the new movies are huge Star Wars fans and the new movies take all their prompts and cues from Star Wars, but few from Trek. When nods are given to old Trek, it's done in an obtuse, haphazard, awkward way. Then the director doesn't come back to finish off the trilogy but instead goes to work on his true love, Star Wars. A shuffle of directors and writers later and then the studio is going on in the news about making the franchise more accessible and less Trekky. Understandable why the old fans are a little more than peeved. Then the studio wonders why the movie only made $500 million and isn't a billion dollar franchise.
They neglect two things.
1. Billion dollar franchises take time to build. Star Wars, Marvel, those were built up over decades.
2. They each have some sort of unifying creative vision.
It is no wonder why 4E was primed to be a (relative) disaster. They expected results from a simple one-shot, night-to-day change over and they disrupted the creative vision.
From 1E to 3E, the Realms were one entity, there were disagreements on the good and bad, but it was all one whole. The 4E Realms actively sought to break that lineage.
- Why does Marvel get into multimillion dollar negotiations to get Robert Downey Jr. back as Iron Man for Civil War?
- Why are the main three actors from the Star Wars back for the new sequels?
- Why did new Trek even bring in Old Spock as a driving impetus for the first movie and a cameo in the second?
Continuity of creative vision. These franchises want to be seen as a collective whole and are banking on the most popular elements to help uplift the entire entity to higher and higher heights.
Let's get off our collective arses!
Why?
When one could submit to one of the Pathfinder fanzines or work one's way up through the RPG Superstar contest to actually pen a published adventure. Or pitch to several other award-winning publishers. Or go at it alone and self-publish under one's own IP?
While there is such a thing as love for a setting, there's also the matter of supporting something that can be supported. Until I see Wizards supporting the Realms as a setting and not some core rules shell, I think most people's time is better spent working on something they can call their own or at least send it to a company that supports their fanbase.
I sound like a pragmatic bastard, but I find it extremely dis-incentivizing to support an alternate version of the Realms while there are options out there to support where one can still belong to the mainstream of the fanbase. And you know, supporting companies that have explicit fan and community use codes.
I would like to see a OGL/GSL specifically for 5E instead of people having to skirt around the old OGL to cobble together a "5th Edition" variant. Perhaps even articles on Dragon about the pre-Spellplague Realms without mention of the impending doom, that would be a cool nod.
How about Wizard gets off their collective arses and start doing the things it needs to allow people to support them. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 20:59:32
Which, to be frank, doesn't sound even half bad if it works. History doesn't seem to be on their side (or ours as fans), but who knows. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 19:49:58
quote:
Originally posted by Snow
I'm not sure I believe the statement that "the F.R. *is* 5E D&D" (or vice-versa).
I believe WotC's objective is to have the F.R. be the default core campaign world of 5E. But there are quoted plans to eventually publish some alternate campaign world material as well. I'm guessing Greyhawk, Dark Sun, etc. But at their current snail's pace rate-of-publishing, this could take a very long time. And such a thing might statistically diminish the quantity/quality of significant lore-laced F.R. sourcebooks to boot.
Idk. I may be wrong, but to be brutally honest, I think that the promised support is just PR. The fact that they are reworking the plotline of classic adventures that would be better fit in DL/GH to be included in the Realms is quite telling. They have also repeatedly said that their goal is ''the brand'', not the TTRPG, not the Realms, but only ''the brand''. They want to have one widely recognized background (the Sword Coast), widely recognized characters and so on to make movies, toys, ''AAA VG titles'' (that's what they said), t-shirts and all that kind of stuff.
Whether this will work or not remains to be seen, though. |
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