| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 May 2015 : 10:44:14
I had a puzzling thought when reading over my Anauroch notes. Why is Shaundakul recognised by the Bedine out of all the other Faerunian deities that they ignore and the handful they recognise (who are a merging of Zakhara spirits and ancient Netherese deities, plus Shaundakul who is very much out of place).
I know that Beshaba is imitating him in this regard and the question that springs to mind is why, there are plenty of other places with bad things happening and unrepresented or misrepresented deities, so why choose to misrepresent a fairly unknown deity among a people that are typically atheists - they recognise the deities but do not worship them.
So i did a bit of digging and found some things that i cannot figure out.
Shaundakul's worship was strong during Myth Drannors heyday (an intermediate deity), and he dwindled to a demi-power thereafter. Prior to that he was a favoured deity among the travellers in the Moonsea north (i reckon that the land between Phlan and the Galenas was cleared of trees by about -1050 (a process beginning with the Twelve Nights of Fire and the Spiderfires, then being completed by human and other settlers).
I dont think there is any association with Shaundakul and Shandaular the city, despite the similarities in names (i believe Shandaular is named after the wizard Shan).
Likewise i dont think Shaundakul was associated with the Netherese.
Faiths and Avatars gives a possible date of origin at the time of the Rus (first dated appearance in -105 DR), although there is no suggestion in the wording that the Rus worshipped him.
So first question is, where did the worship of Shaundakul come from? Was he a mortal that ascended. Did he arrive with the original tribe from Zakhara that would later become the Bedine and his clergy moved on to Myth Drannor and the Moonsea North (abandoning the Bedine for whatever reason).
When did Shaundakul first arrive in Faerun. Was it pre or post fall of Netheril?
Then why did Beshaba try and usurp his worship in Anauroch. Is it in return for some slight. Did the Bedine twist the worship of Shaundakul over time into something malicious (as they have done with all the gods) and so Beshaba started taking the divine energy created by the lip service paid to the Lurker in the Sands purely out of opportunism. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2015 : 14:27:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
YOU can do whatever you want for your own games/homebrew variant. Thats the beauty of FR.
And I think we are just splitting hairs at this point; Suppose Aumantor felt his power slipping from him (after losing a monumental number of worshipers). He may have tried to fix things by 'reinventing' himself, but events may have gotten away from him. It could be that he never planned to actually be 'reborn' as Lathander, but rather, only meant to put a new spin on himself for new believers, and something went awry.
Whether he did it on purpose or by accident, we know the end result (mostly), and either way works. Both sets of beliefs could work in the Realms, for us (fans), and also for the folk that live there (different sects within the religion). As it is, we already have the major schism of whether Aumanator and Lathander are even the same being. I personally don't think they are (we which means I'd have to re-work a lot of what I've been saying in this thread). I still prefer the theory that there are three 'Sun Gods', and that Jergal is/was 'the Dusk Lord'.
Selūne, BTW, should technically be a fourth 'Sun' god - she sheds the light (left behind by the sun) when the other three aren't showing. Maybe she holds the light left-behind by the lost '1st sun'.
I love these kinds of conversations. 
I would like to stress I like the idea of Selune and the sun being tied. She is the "reflection" of the sun. She's also supposedly the one that BROUGHT the sun. So perhaps her growing more "good" and separating from her sister is because she was reflecting the sun and thereby slowly absorbing its "life-giving" nature. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 15:12:03
YOU can do whatever you want for your own games/homebrew variant. Thats the beauty of FR.
And I think we are just splitting hairs at this point; Suppose Aumantor felt his power slipping from him (after losing a monumental number of worshipers). He may have tried to fix things by 'reinventing' himself, but events may have gotten away from him. It could be that he never planned to actually be 'reborn' as Lathander, but rather, only meant to put a new spin on himself for new believers, and something went awry.
Whether he did it on purpose or by accident, we know the end result (mostly), and either way works. Both sets of beliefs could work in the Realms, for us (fans), and also for the folk that live there (different sects within the religion). As it is, we already have the major schism of whether Aumanator and Lathander are even the same being. I personally don't think they are (we which means I'd have to re-work a lot of what I've been saying in this thread). I still prefer the theory that there are three 'Sun Gods', and that Jergal is/was 'the Dusk Lord'.
Selūne, BTW, should technically be a fourth 'Sun' god - she sheds the light (left behind by the sun) when the other three aren't showing. Maybe she holds the light left-behind by the lost '1st sun'.
I love these kinds of conversations. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 14:57:12
Well i'm going with an accidental creation of Lathander rather than this god did this and that god did that.
Amaunator's church turned into a real swine by the sounds of it early in the period of the successor states (harsh treatment of the survivors of netheril led to his abandonment).
So i imagine a holy order of Amaunator surviving the fall of Netheril and heading west with the low netherese (the church of amaunator was after all the main administrative body of Netheril and therefore low netherese based) and so was one of the first established religious groups in the Heartlands area.
Now that group may have merged with other religious groups in the region, and probably found a similar group of sun worshippers arriving from fallen Jhaamdath (Calimshan had a single sun deity in its pantheon according to RoF, although it is unnamed), and they may have merged of the deity into Lathander (seeking to distance themselves from Amaunator's regular church in Anauria, Asram, and Hlondeth who were becoming real jerks and very unpopular).
Now the Dawn Cataclysm "presaged" the fall of Myth Drannor, so that was before it if i understand presaged correctly, and caused the death of several deities and powerful outsiders and the downfall of many theocracies.
Lathander's exuberance and lack of forethought caused him to engage in actions and conflicts without caring or thinking about the consequences, and he attempted to cleanse the pantheon of evil. So i'm thinking the united churches of the sun gods (now called Lathander) marched into the Vilhon Reach region and began fighting the Dark Gods that were growing in power there (i had previously proposed that following the activities of the Dark Three that we know about they moved to the Vilhon Reach region as Netheril was already dead and therefore Jhaamdath was the best place to establish a church - unfortunately Jhaamdath died soon after).
So Lathanderites begin attacking anyone who even pays lip service to the dark gods. Auppenser and Murdane's church (plus a few other Jhaamdathi churches) side with the common people who Lathanderites are attacking and so are exterminated (and therefore the deity snuffs it). The Procession of Justice is just one part of this religious conflict.
Ultimately the entire Jhaamdathi pantheon is annihilated as gods are killed or join the new Faerunian pantheon.
The death of theocracies are the survivor states of Jhaamdath in the Vilhon Reach being attacked by Lathanderites.
And why is this not documented anywhere, because it occured in the shadow of two of the biggest catastrophies in ten thousand years, during a time of great upheaval, and because there was no organised group of people to record it because the conflict destroyed the emerging nations and organisations (according to history it took nearly 200 years before any city was formed in the Vilhon Reach following Jhaamdath's destruction - i find that hard to believe and so i reckon things were resettled before that time but were destroyed again with no trace of them left).
It fills in a gap anyway. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 14:22:09
To try and bring this back around, that means after the fall of Netheril (and Mystryl), the Faerūnian pantheon began to crumble. All that 'divine energy' was being shed by gods that no longer had sufficient worshipers.
lets say - for argument's sake - that the 'Seven lost Gods' were ancient, comatose beings that had fallen into a state of suspended animation as their time waned. All of a sudden the world is filled with access divine energy, and like huge, primordial magnets, the Lost Gods begin to reabsorb some of that energy and begin to awaken.
The Dark Three somehow pickup on whats going on*, and begin their own adventures in acquiring that energy from those gods (before they fully come back into their own and become unchallengeable).
Shaundakul was also rising at this time - he may have been an older deity from elsewhere (Zakhara?), or he may have been a newer one that was just using the alias. This ties into my theory that for at least 1000 years there was way too much stray 'divine energy' floating about and up for grabs. Who knows? Maybe he also killed a Lost God - we have a Myriad of them to choose from in FR (like my earlier idea that he may have also absorbed/combined with one of the Yuir Totems... who also seem to be ancient powers that briefly 're-awoke' during this era).
*I could slip my theories about Kiputytto being the 'missing fourth' giving them this information in here. I feel she was actively trying to reestablish herself after the fall of Netheril, going by the stray bits we have in Elminster's Ecologies, and she may have even been the one to 'put the team together'. Like any worthy Dark Gods, they betrayed her in the end. Also homebrew, but based on some odd canon lore that needed fixing. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 14:10:21
I had thought the DC had occurred closer to around the 300's, sometime around when the survivor states fell.
Regardless, what I mean by 'around that time' was 'within a few centuries of each other'. With events on a cosmic scale - involving immortal beings - a few centuries is probably like a few days to us mortals (especially when you consider the cmlete history of the Reams, and hw far back it stretches).
And as an aside, all of this seems to have been going on since the birth of Elminster. He may also have been some sort of byproduct of Mystryl and Netheril's fall. If we look at the pantheon/cosmology as an intricate framework, removing one key piece (Mystryl) could cause the enire thing to collapse. Once again, looking at the 'grand scale of things', Aumanator may have seen the fall of the netherese (old Faerūnian) pantheon, and his 'Dawn lord' aspect may have foreseen "a new beginning". Thus, Aumanator may have sacrificed himself in some sort of rebirth of the pantheon, simply solidifying events that were already happening over the past milenia, and that may be the 'Dawn Cataclysm. The precise date that has been figured out for it may be of the nature of the 'Fall of Rome' - it was an ongoing (cosmic) event that culminated in some sort of ritual that Lathander performed.
In other words, what we think of as 'The Dawn Cataclysm' may have actually been the final event - Aumanator/Lathander "sticking his finger in the proverbial Dyke". The pantheon was sick and dying, and part of that infection was Moander's taint within Tyche. By removing that and other things, his Lathander aspect created 'a new dawn' for the cosmology of The Realms.
Just one of many possibilities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 12:41:28
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Dunno, the Ulutiun/Ice Hunters, know her as Saukuruk, not Auril, suggesting she absorbed a Ice Huntet deity.
The canon lore seems to indicate she was a member of the fey courts who eventually took on godly powers (which I actually like). |
| Baltas |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 11:10:32
Dunno, the Ulutiun/Ice Hunters, know her as Saukuruk, not Auril, suggesting she absorbed a Ice Huntet deity. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 11:02:26
Auril is from the Illuskans apparently (according to RoF), which means she was probably an Ice Hunter deity first. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 10:38:20
I think that Auril might be also from the Talfiric pantheon, due her cult in Amn and Sword Coast. She probably subsumed a more benevolent Northern frost deity, probably named Saukuruk.
[EDIT]
Specialy that northmen seem to take their beliefs out of their neighboring cultures. It appears that the beast cults, started out as Rengard, low Netherese and Ice Hunter cults, and their most venerated deity, Tempus, might have started out as a Talfiric deity.
This may nicely connect to your theory that Northmen are camr from Abeir, and were originaly godless/atheistic. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 10:19:45
Ooh, good catch on the Races of Faerun, it has a pantheonic origin for a number of deities (although Tempus was only a "believed to be Talfiric").
I can find no mention of a Talfiric Pantheon in Races of Faerun, just that several deities are "believed to be of Talfiric origin" and that their entire culture and language was washed away over a thousand years ago, overwhelmed by the Low Netherese, Chondathan, northern, and Calishite peoples.
|
| Baltas |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 09:04:02
Actualy, the Western Heartlands, Amn and Tethyr would be also contested by the Talfiri pantheon. It's actualy mentioned as one of the major Pantheons that gave rise to the Fearunian Mega Pantheon.
So it isn't a "minor" pantheon. Races of Faerun outrigh called it a "Major Pantheon".
It's also the pantheon from which Tempus came, before (I think) he became also the northern, and later general god of war.
And yes, the Talfir Pantheon would would a foothold in Tethyr and Amn, as Thethyrian and Talfiri are deeply connected. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 08:46:38
Never did like the idea of a hazy out of time, unspecified event.
I'm going with the creation of the Faerunian Pantheon which is a 1000 year long event spread across multiple regions and encompasses all the events we associate with the Dawn Cataclysm (death of Murdane - yay i remembered her name - ascension of the Dark Three, the splitting of Tyche, the rise of Lathander, etc, etc).
Now all i need is to figure out which gods are from which pantheons and when they first appeared, and also figure out what the various pantheons were around -339 DR when it all began.
Lets see we have a Calishite Pantheon that covers Calimshan, Tethyr, Amn, and contests Shaar with Unther.
An Illuskan/Northern Pantheon that covers the Savage Frontier and includes northmen gods and many beast cults of the ice hunters.
The Jhaamdath Pantheon which covers the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta.
The Netherese Pantheon which covers Netheril and the Western Heartlands.
Of course there a many more minor pantheons, but these are associated with singular cities/groups of people or geographic features; the Yuir Pantheon only encompasses the Yuir Wood as it is not worshipped by anyone outside it, the Talfiric Pantheon is worshipped only by the Talfir who are quickly subsumed by the Netherese, Jhaamdath, and Calishite Pantheons, so i'll ignore the minor pantheons.
Maybe i should continue this in another thread. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 07:40:54
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
I was thinking along the lines where different temples worshiped different aspects of Tyche. Moander's corruption of Tyche caused a further schism between the temples and their worshipers, which eventually made Tyche split into two deities.
Another though is that another god of luck fought Tyche, both were so severly weakened that Tyche's portfolios was split between them.
Well, I proposed something similar, that Tyche absorbed Bes of the Mulhorandi pantheon. I got the idea from the first description of Tyche in Forgotten Realms in the Dragon magazine #54 article "Down-to-earth divinity" by Ed, were described as giving Tyche some elements of Bes.
[EDIT]
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, it occurs to me that Tymora and Beshaba could have been aspects of Tyche... Not independent entities at all, more of a case where Tymora was the good "face" of Tyche, and Beshaba was the bad one. And then, when Selūne zapped Tyche, she just naturally split along this faultline that she herself had created. This could smooth over a lot of discrepancies, but still allow for the existence of one unified church.
Brilliant idea Wooly, and such things do occur in both D&D and reall life religion and mythology. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 20 May 2015 : 07:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, it occurs to me that Tymora and Beshaba could have been aspects of Tyche... Not independent entities at all, more of a case where Tymora was the good "face" of Tyche, and Beshaba was the bad one. And then, when Selūne zapped Tyche, she just naturally split along this faultline that she herself had created. This could smooth over a lot of discrepancies, but still allow for the existence of one unified church.
I was thinking along the lines where different temples worshiped different aspects of Tyche. Moander's corruption of Tyche caused a further schism between the temples and their worshipers, which eventually made Tyche split into two deities.
Another though is that another god of luck fought Tyche, both were so severly weakened that Tyche's portfolios was split between them. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 22:23:22
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well where canon doesn't work I just reinvent my own, and myths and legends are just human interpretation of events. I prefer a more human based approach, it just makes more sense that way.
We will disagree on both parts of that statement: that canon doesn't work and that a human approach for divine affairs makes more sense. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 20:48:05
Well where canon doesn't work I just reinvent my own, and myths and legends are just human interpretation of events. I prefer a more human based approach, it just makes more sense that way. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 20:35:30
Actually, it occurs to me that Tymora and Beshaba could have been aspects of Tyche... Not independent entities at all, more of a case where Tymora was the good "face" of Tyche, and Beshaba was the bad one. And then, when Selūne zapped Tyche, she just naturally split along this faultline that she herself had created. This could smooth over a lot of discrepancies, but still allow for the existence of one unified church.
Or, taking a page from Golarion: Tyche was the goddess of all luck, but she had two nearly-divine servitors, Tymora and Beshaba. One represented Tyche for those wanting good luck, and the other represented her for bad luck. When Tyche was sundered, all of her power flowed into these two servitors, making them divine. Of course, this presents a couple of issues, namely in the fact that so far as we have seen, neither deity has any recollection of having being separate before Tyche. Also, it would have meant that the two couldn't have been recombined into Tyche, because there were three entities -- but this was not a concern in Tymora's Luck. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 20:26:34
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Actualy, there may had been signs of Beshaba's existence even during the times of Netheril.
quote:
Originally found in Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 87
The citizens of Shade built a mosque dedicated to the treacherous aspect of Tyche in 2714. They used her vengeful nature to benefit their goals while using the luck aspect of Tyche to weigh the result in their favor. The mosque was a mass of priests vying for supremacy over a congregation that was out for nothing more than a fuller pocket and revenge for anyone whose activities threatened theirs. One thing that kept them together was anger and suspicion against the church of Tyche in Imbrue.
I wouldn't read that as proof of Beshaba's existence... Tyche encompassed all luck, good and bad. Depending on a person's luck, Tyche could easily be perceived as benefiting or betraying someone.
The earliest potential date I know of for the Dawn Cataclysm is still well after the fall of Netheril.
And considering the way the gods are constantly jockeying for position, and the enmity between Tymora and Beshaba, I think it highly unlikely that the two would have shared their church and worshipers even a day longer than necessary. This is why I put so much weight on the schism in Tyche's church.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 20:20:34
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well discussions of the Dawn Cataclysm, the Dark Three, and real world pantheons is not where I expected this to go, but such is life.
However it did prompt my mind racing and I have now come up with my own solution to the Dawn Cataclysm, and its quite simple.
The Dawn Cataclysm is very simply the creation of the Faerunian Pantheon. However for such a simple thing it is actually a thousand year long process with multiple events spread across that timeline.
So from -400 DR onwards the Anauroch desert is spreading each day and the diaspora begins in earnest. Over the course of this century we have people migrating from the Netheril basin to the Moonsea region, the Western Heartlands, the Dragon Coast and the Savage Frontier.
-255 DR is the fall of Jhaamdath and the beginning of migration from the Vilhon Reach to the Western Heartlands, the Dragon Coast, and Sembia.
In the mixing of people there is inevitably conflict between various religious nutters (sorry I mean devout worshippers) who try and enforce their ideal upon worshippers of similar churches.
The split of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba is a byproduct of this (the majority of Tyche's church stayed in the Seventon region and was destroyed, a schism of that church that operated on the fringes of Netheril escaped with the diaspora and so became the prevailing philosophical ideal among the remaining faithful that Tyche was in fact two separate beings).
The name Dawn Cataclysm actually comes from the crusade led by Lathander's Church to eradicate the worshippers of evil deities from the areas of the emerging Faerunian Pantheon (Lathander himself was a schismatic sect of Amaunator's Church that like Tyche's schism managed to escape to other regions with the diaspora while Amaunator's church dwindled to nothingness before 0 DR thanks to the harsh treatment of the citizens of the survivor states).
The Dawn Crusade began in the Heartlands and soon spread south to the Vilhon Reach where it encountered the emerging churches of the Dark Three and drove them away (to Chessenta and the Moonsea). Helm's lady friend whose name escapes me refused to join the new Faerunian Pantheon and so perished at the close of the Dawn Crusade. Auppenser remains the only deity in the Jhaamdath Pantheon and he is essentially dead.
And that's what I'm using for my alternate realms campaign setting (still work in progress), there is no "Lathander did this" soap opera nonsense, its a logical progression of events in the real world that are reflected in the outer planes (which is just as it should be).
So far as I know, there were no crusades in the mortal world as part of the Dawn Cataclysm.
And the split of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba was a by-product of Selūne zapping Tyche when she saw that Tyche had been infected by Moander. Tyche split into two separate entities. This does not have any apparent connection to the Dawn Cataclysm; it just happened to take place during the Dawn Cataclysm. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 20:05:44
Well, my personal take on it that the Dawn Cataclysm, is basicaly like the Crysis on Infinite Earth's, or Infinite Crysis, an occurence, that reshufled reality, and time itself, erasing even some deities from existence. This explain how it occured "outside of time", and would explain how signs of Beshaba's existence appeared a over a millenia before 700 DR. Basicaly, Beshaba's existence tried to establish itself back in past. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 19:43:18
Well discussions of the Dawn Cataclysm, the Dark Three, and real world pantheons is not where I expected this to go, but such is life.
However it did prompt my mind racing and I have now come up with my own solution to the Dawn Cataclysm, and its quite simple.
The Dawn Cataclysm is very simply the creation of the Faerunian Pantheon. However for such a simple thing it is actually a thousand year long process with multiple events spread across that timeline.
So from -400 DR onwards the Anauroch desert is spreading each day and the diaspora begins in earnest. Over the course of this century we have people migrating from the Netheril basin to the Moonsea region, the Western Heartlands, the Dragon Coast and the Savage Frontier.
-255 DR is the fall of Jhaamdath and the beginning of migration from the Vilhon Reach to the Western Heartlands, the Dragon Coast, and Sembia.
In the mixing of people there is inevitably conflict between various religious nutters (sorry I mean devout worshippers) who try and enforce their ideal upon worshippers of similar churches.
The split of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba is a byproduct of this (the majority of Tyche's church stayed in the Seventon region and was destroyed, a schism of that church that operated on the fringes of Netheril escaped with the diaspora and so became the prevailing philosophical ideal among the remaining faithful that Tyche was in fact two separate beings).
The name Dawn Cataclysm actually comes from the crusade led by Lathander's Church to eradicate the worshippers of evil deities from the areas of the emerging Faerunian Pantheon (Lathander himself was a schismatic sect of Amaunator's Church that like Tyche's schism managed to escape to other regions with the diaspora while Amaunator's church dwindled to nothingness before 0 DR thanks to the harsh treatment of the citizens of the survivor states).
The Dawn Crusade began in the Heartlands and soon spread south to the Vilhon Reach where it encountered the emerging churches of the Dark Three and drove them away (to Chessenta and the Moonsea). Helm's lady friend whose name escapes me refused to join the new Faerunian Pantheon and so perished at the close of the Dawn Crusade. Auppenser remains the only deity in the Jhaamdath Pantheon and he is essentially dead.
And that's what I'm using for my alternate realms campaign setting (still work in progress), there is no "Lathander did this" soap opera nonsense, its a logical progression of events in the real world that are reflected in the outer planes (which is just as it should be). |
| Baltas |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 19:30:07
Actualy, there may had been signs of Beshaba's existence even during the times of Netheril.
quote:
Originally found in Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 87
The citizens of Shade built a mosque dedicated to the treacherous aspect of Tyche in 2714. They used her vengeful nature to benefit their goals while using the luck aspect of Tyche to weigh the result in their favor. The mosque was a mass of priests vying for supremacy over a congregation that was out for nothing more than a fuller pocket and revenge for anyone whose activities threatened theirs. One thing that kept them together was anger and suspicion against the church of Tyche in Imbrue.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 17:49:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Your question for Ed made me realize that the time-frame you are in also happens to be right around the same time the Dawn Cataclysm occurred, which separated Tyche into Beshaba and Tymora.
So we have the Dark Three and Shaundakul all ascending around the same time around the Moonsea, and we also have the Dawn Cataclysm and a 'changing of the guard' amongst certain gods in the Faerūnian pantheon...
If I were a betting man, I'd say there seems to have been a lot of 'stray divine energy' floating around at that time. Not sure why that would be; the Dawn cataclysm may have caused it, or had been the result of that. I would also hazard to guess that Mystryl's Fall precipitated all of that. Her energy wouldn't be the only energy released - she may have been some sort of 'lynchpin' that kept everything in balance (because the Seven lost Gods also got destroyed soon after).
Hmmmm.... I like the idea, but the issue is when the Dawn Cataclysm happened. Officially, it has no specific date, and happened "outside of time" -- an explanation that I seriously dislike, as has been stated in the past.
The separation of Tyche and Beshaba can be reasonably dated to the 700s DR; that's when the schism in the church happened. It is my personal belief, based strongly on that timeframe (as given in the 3E FRCS) that this very much narrows down when the DC happened. Admittedly, there is evidence for other times, as well, but prior references linking the fall of Myth Drannor to the DC also point at the early part of that century.
However, we have evidence that the Dark Three ascended much, much earlier. The Ironfang Keep article has the Dark Three encountering Haask in -350DR, and the printed Grand History of the Realms refers to them slaying Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud in -359DR.
So unless the Dawn Cataclysm that saw the sundering of Tyche happened more than a 1000 years before her church schismed (and before the fall of Netheril!), then we have to assume the rise of the Dark Three wasn't associated with the Dawn Cataclysm... Or that the Dawn Cataclysm did indeed happen outside of time, with various effects bleeding thru into mortal time at different points. It is my opinion that the latter explanation causes more problems than a specific date would.
Of course, we also know that the Dawn Cataclysm wasn't the only time there has been deific upheaval in the Realms. For example, the fall of Jhaamdath in -255 could have left more deities than just Auppenser without worshipers; this could have also left some divine power available. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 15:04:15
Your question for Ed made me realize that the time-frame you are in also happens to be right around the same time the Dawn Cataclysm occurred, which separated Tyche into Beshaba and Tymora.
So we have the Dark Three and Shaundakul all ascending around the same time around the Moonsea, and we also have the Dawn Cataclysm and a 'changing of the guard' amongst certain gods in the Faerūnian pantheon...
If I were a betting man, I'd say there seems to have been a lot of 'stray divine energy' floating around at that time. Not sure why that would be; the Dawn cataclysm may have caused it, or had been the result of that. I would also hazard to guess that Mystryl's Fall precipitated all of that. Her energy wouldn't be the only energy released - she may have been some sort of 'lynchpin' that kept everything in balance (because the Seven lost Gods also got destroyed soon after). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 14:27:00
As for the Bedine, we can go back to Al-Qadim history and the 'Scattering of Fate', in which she dispersed the peoples of (the once-verdant) Zakhara to the four winds. Although the canon simply says she caused some sort of catastrophe that made the lands unlivable, I picture her creating massive portals (or activating ancient, already-existing ones) and scooping up whole tribes of folks to deposit them elsewhere (an idea I borrowed and reworked from the Well of Souls series of novels).
Now, for some groups this may have seemed like a blessing. For others - like the Bedine - it could have been viewed as a curse. This is why I feel the Bedine and certain other psuedo-Middle Eastern cultures around the Realms dislike the gods (remembering, of course, that the proto-Imaskari - the Muhjari - most-likely migrated up from Zakhara, and they had no love of 'the gods' as well).
A lot of my homebrew 'beliefs' fall back on my idea that Zakhara was originally Rakshasa-controlled, and then later their Dgen slaves revolted, and the it was genie-ruled for several milenia, and then finally the humans learned how to control the Dgen (probably from warring Dgen themselves) and Zakhara has since been ruled by humans in a cycle of rising-and-falling empires.
The Rakshasa flee to the Yehimals to lick their wounds and rebuild - their canon appearances seemed to be centered all around that range - and they displace the thriving dwarf culture that existed there in prehistoric times (which leads us to the canon about the dwarves appearing in the Yehimals and then spreading outward from there). I had a LOT of lore to go with all of that back when a bunch of us were working on a K-T update on the old WotC site, and connected the Vedic pantheon (which does have a canon existence in FR in Malatra) to the terrible things the Rakshasa began to do in lower K-T.
Some dwarven deities may have managed to survive all of this and re-spun themselves to the newer arrivals - I think this is how Ptah wound up in the Mulhorandi/Pharonic pantheon. Ancient dwarven temples to the 'Overgod' may have existed throughout the lower Taan (Hordelands) region in various mountain ranges, only to be discovered by the downtrodden peoples of the area (the Imaskari slaves). If we go with the fact that DoD is canon, then the Imaskari seemed to have a fascination with 'keeping tabs' on many, many pantheons (paranoia?)
Getting back to Shaundakul:
I don't really see much of a problem. He was apparently an ascended mortal from the Moonsea region (and we could possibly connect him to the Dark Three in some way for that reason... or not), and he either changed or died, and his portfolio and name was subsumed by other deities. We can even surmise that - much like Baast/Shandilar - that he may have merged with another power - possibly even another Yuir Totem. This sort of thing is pretty common-place, and likely more-so in FR then on most other worlds. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 13:34:53
I think that there might have been more interraction between Netherese or Bedine deities, and those of Mulan. Tymora(then still named Tyche), in the original Dragon Article, was described as having elements of Bes.
So I think it's possible that Tyche subsumed Bes, or absorbed some of his portfolio, possibly giving Set the rights to try to gather worshipers in Heartlands.
Also, Selan is mos probably the Zakharan aspect of Selune, but the Bedine worship Selune as Elah, recaling the ancient Semitic god El/Eloah/Elohim.
El is sometimes connected to the Sumerian god Enlil/Ellil, so maybe Enlil also tried to gain foothold on Faerunian Heartlands, under his aspect Eloah. But Selune and Kozah stopped him, and split his portfolio. This may be why Kozah among Bedine is described as "Lawful".
[EDIT]
Also, to be clear, I prescribe to Rip Van Wormer's theory that it's wasn't the Sumerian Enlil(who is Neutral Good) that gained the rulership of Untheri deities, but his Babylonian counterpart, Ellil, who is Lawful Neutral. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 13:16:59
Its a possibility, but a spurious one (not that the Bedine origin isnt likewise spurious). I found only one mention (that i now cannot find again) of a migration of people heading east across the Anauroch desert from the Savage Frontier lands (i think it was around or just after the successor states), and i vaguely recall those people being illuskan or barbarian (not Angardt or Rengarth), so its a possibility.
I've asked Ed anyway, see if he can shed some light on Shaundakul (or not if it's NDA) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 12:58:46
Well, there was a myth about Shaundakul in the Great Dale, about the creation of the Dale, that states that Silvanus and Shaundakul held a contest to decide whether wood or wind will rule this land when Auril the Frostmaiden intervened to set winter over both.
The Rus also had the Windwalker artefact, and it was connected also to Yggdrasil's child on Ruathym. Wildwalkers are specialist priests of Shaundakul, and Shaundakul himself is called Rider of the Winds.
I still think that it was first Set who had a hand in demonizing Shaundakul's/Haku's image. The Lurker in Sands, after all, is described as Jackal headed, which would imply a connection to either Set or Anubis. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 May 2015 : 12:39:41
Well i only deal with realms deities.
I don't think the Rus have any connection to Shaundakul, he is not venerated in Rashemen or most of the Unapproachable East (except Thesk where the association can be explained by trade) and i find no mention of him in the Savage Frontier either.
His appearance is centred around the Cormanthor, Moonsea, Anauroch area where his worship first seems to have appeared in history.
Given that the Bedine are supposed to have come from Zakhara it seems that Haku is a good fit for me. That he is benevolent in those lands and now seen as an evil deity among the Bedine is typical of those atheist tribes that live there. They probably found when they moved that none of their "gods" would answer them any more, hence they abandoned them. When they were joined by the remnants of the Netherese successor states, who likewise felt the gods had abandoned them (Mystryl's death, Amaunator's clergy treating them harshly, and the general collapse of their entire society). It is possible the two pessimistic world views mixed to create a society where all gods are seen as generally evil and grasping with little care for lesser beings.
I think i might go and ask Ed where he intended Shaundakul to originate from (i think Shaundakul was mentioned in the original Anauroch accessory which was by Ed) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 18 May 2015 : 14:16:38
Interesting, especialy about the Black Panther, especialy that he would be then the brother of Ravanna, the God King of Rakshasa. It's also possible that Baast only became "calmer" after absorbing Zandilar the Dancer, and earlier she was a much more Savage deity, like her Kiga incarnation, or her sister Sekhmet. Especialy that in the original beliefs, Sekhmet and Bastet could be one goddess, that fragmented.
It's even canon that that Baast was more warlike before merging with Zandilar, so she could be outright savage.
The transformation of Baast into Sharess, can be connected to Sekhmet's transformation into Hathor, both which in turn can be connected to the Deva-Rakshasa cycle. Sekhmet/Hathor, is also similar, and connected to the transformation of Parvati into Durga and then Kali.
Also, the reall mythology is also quite interconnected. For example, Homer's theogony, first appeared probably in the Hurrian/Hittite myth of Anu, Kumarbi, and Teshub/Tarhun. |
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