| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 17:17:17
So, I was just thinking to myself how much it would fit that the Finnish interlopers (Loviatar and Kiputytto) were actually hag deities brought over by hags long ago and then relatively forgotten as Cegilune drew more hag worshippers to her.
Anyway, that got me thinking about "how" gods become gods to a degree, and it occurred to me that many "wanna be" gods may start out creating warlocks and allowing their power to be used by pact magic wielders in order to spread reknown of their name. Eventually, they draw enough "reverence" for who they are that they can then adopt a "god template" and from there, they can begin making clerics (which is less of a time/resource commitment on their part, as the cleric's faith helps provide the power for their magic instead of it having to come directly from the "entity"). So, then it occurred to me that the churches hate pact magic users and warlocks because they don't want other deities who may challenge them from forming.... and not particularly because of any vile nature to the style of magic being practiced. What do you think? |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 13:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
And that's assuming that a cleric of Torm (or anyone else) would understand pacts at all, and be able to differentiate between warlocks based on their pacts. I would think that this assumption is basically never true. Most probably don't see significant differences between warlocks and sorcerers.
For that matter, how many would be able to differentiate between binders/pact magic users and warlocks. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 22:01:56
Some of the less liberal-minded clergy of the Realms have always held other spellcasters in poor regard. Wizards, arcanists, mages, sorcerers, warlocks, witches, necromancers, maybe even alchemists and artificers and psionicists - all the same, all practitioners of forbidden arts, dabblers in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know, all smacking of irreverent and impious arrogance. Those dedicated to serving the glory of a higher being, trusting that their fates and purposes exist only to exalt something greater, must humbly submit to recognition of their puny insignificance in the grand order of things. Even the clergy of a dark power like Bane or Talos would be better tolerated in this context since, though they be misguided and malevolent and work as enemies of the "true" faith, they still understand their proper place in a world filled with the workings of the gods.
I wonder just how much of this attitude is embellished truth <ahem> Netheril <ahem>, and how much is propagated within church doctrine, and how much - just how much? - is a holdover of our own (and WotC's) "neutral" religious teachings. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 21:26:20
And that's assuming that a cleric of Torm (or anyone else) would understand pacts at all, and be able to differentiate between warlocks based on their pacts. I would think that this assumption is basically never true. Most probably don't see significant differences between warlocks and sorcerers. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 19:51:40
quote:
sfdragon
needless to say a cleric of Torm would stand a warlock celestial pact but would smite a fiend pact warlock....
Why?
A cleric of Torm serves Torm's best interests. Duty, Loyalty, Law (maybe also Justice), and Righteousness.
A fiendish warlock might be viewed as noxious and dubious, but unless his very existence is a transgression against Torm's portfolio, it would be injust to persecute him without any evidence of wrongdoing. Torm is Torm, not some figure based on our religious preferences. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 03:22:14
faiths hating warlocks.....
well here is one deal that some forget.
in 3e/4e( not sure on 5e) but you can create pacts with: Fey, celestials, evil outsiders, primordials and primal spirits.
needless to say a cleric of Torm would stand a warlock celestial pact but would smite a fiend pact warlock.... |
| Riley37 |
Posted - 22 Apr 2015 : 06:04:52
There are religions on Earth which dislike the presence of other religions, and see those religions as competition. And there are people who assume that every religion in the Realm feels the same way.
There are religions on Earth which see other religions, especially compatibly-aligned religions, as potential allies; and there are people who bring that attitude to religion in the Realms. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 18:12:18
I see your point, but still have some doubts. Even if Ao's edict against portfolios being shared doesn't affacte deities in different pantheons, a wannabe god(dess) would still need his ''blessing'' to become one (or not?). And, taking your example of the charming spirit, why would Sunites see him/her/it as a threat, it's not like people would stop worshipping Sune, they would more likely to keep worship her, or pray to both -if they actually came to know about this spirit-. But yes, I could see warlocks/pact users being preached against, even if IMO it wouldn't be a general thing, more something that varies from one church to another -and even inside a same faith (and I can't picture much effort being spent against them -i.e. I personally don't think that there are pact-users persecutions, unless their patrons happen to be devils or the like-). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 17:57:22
remember, Ao's thing against 2 gods having the same portfolios is if they are "in the same pantheon" or if the two pantheons come into dispute. Therefore, new gods COULD find themselves forming as a "racial" deity (and thereby not in the Faerunian Pantheon) or something similar and then later once they have enough influence attempt to interlope into the Faerunian Pantheon. Thus, the gods could see pact magic and warlocks who spread the name of other powerful entities as a possible threat.... especially pact magic users, since they change who they serve on a whim. So, one day they may be calling on a powerful beast spirit, which doesn't bother Sune.... then a week later, they may be calling upon a spirit of a powerful enchantress who gives the ability to charm members of the opposite sex..... and thus empowering competition for Sune. Thus, between the two, I see pact magic users as more of a "threat" than warlocks that are tied to specific patrons... but still probably both might be preached against. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 17:39:54
Do all gods hate pact magic? I wasn't aware of that tbh. I don't see pact magic as being ''evil'', at least not when it comes from neutral/good entities (like Archfeys can be), so I don't think of that as a reason. Magic coming from evil patrons -on the other hand- has good reasons to be hated (and not only by churches), not because of the magic itself IMO, but because said patron likely hands it out so that it could serve their purpose.
I don't know whether it is possible to become a deity just by making warlock pacts, Ao's consent -and finding a free portfolio- is needed in order for that to happen, IIRC.
Also, why would a faith care if another god is formed, especially to the point of hating pact casters? I mean 1)in order to affect an existing church, the new god would have to receive a sphere of influence that would put them in competition with the one worshipped by the church (which already limits the possibilities) and 2)since in Faerun people worship many deities, I don't see them dropping the worship of an existing deity for another (especially if they do not have similar portfolios). |
| Baltas |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 17:31:10
Interesting idea, it has actualy sense. Warlocks allways kind-off were "arcane" priests, although quite a bit of them aren't particualy religious, but some do actualy revere the beings they formed pacts with.
I guess the first Eldritch Disciples, appeared first during a intermediate phase, as the Fey(I include hags here), Celestials and Fiends, and Primordials, started to ascend to true godhood. |
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