| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 01:56:31
Okay, so I just started this novel, I'm hoping its good but I have a question. It opens with a massive Sahuaghin attack on Waterdeep on 30 Ches 1370 DR. Is this the sahuaghin attack described in Rising Tide, book I of the 'The Threat from the Sea'? Because in that book this attack takes place on 30 Chess 1369.
Any know how this is resolved? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 00:30:38
I just finished this one and enjoyed it, but felt like a good 100-150 pages could have easily been cut. |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 15:33:01
I agree re:Elfshadow as a starting point.
I think rereading it that my review was too negative. The final confrontation left me very frustrated, and I think that led me to be more negative than I should have been. The problems I noted were real, but the characters really were superb. Would have liked to learn more about Mreldar. :) |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 13:08:35
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, I finished it! Very odd. Halfway through I was seriously considering it for my review column, but since I try to only review works I can recommend, I can't use it for that. Much of it is very, very good but it has some problems. One, is it is clearly written solely for FR fans. If you are not already a fan of and knowledgable about Waterdeep, this novel will confuse the hell out of you. There are many extremely well conceived and executed characters, which I would expect from two writers known for that, but after a promising start the villains get a real short shrift. They are very Lovecraftrian, several aspects of the novel remind me of his short story "The Thing on the Doorstep" but ultimately the villains are left extremely vague and queesy.
Waterdahvian politics have a large role but are glossed over and 'unearned,' the novel (and recall, it is written for FR fans who know the city well to start with) requires the reader to accept a sudden shift in Waterdeep's politics that has no antecedent or hint in any previous (or subsequent, as far as I can tell) tales of the city.
The final confrontation is extremely confusing in the beginning, only great good will for the authors will convince a reader to plow through it when they haven't been bothered to make it clear what is happening. The end is tragic and bitter-sweet, and the excellent character work allows the reader to enjoy that despite the novel's other flaws. An ambitious but flawed work that might have been much, much better.
I can't recommend it to others, especially non-FR fans as I said, but in the end, I did enjoy it and I am glad I read it. :)
Thanks for the well-considered review. I'm glad you enjoyed the characters and, on balance, the novel.
I agree that CoS might very well confuse someone who is not already familiar with the Realms. Some FR books provide better starting points than others. Among my books, I think Elfshadow would best suit that purpose.
|
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 14 May 2011 : 03:05:13
Well, I finished it! Very odd. Halfway through I was seriously considering it for my review column, but since I try to only review works I can recommend, I can't use it for that. Much of it is very, very good but it has some problems. One, is it is clearly written solely for FR fans. If you are not already a fan of and knowledgable about Waterdeep, this novel will confuse the hell out of you. There are many extremely well conceived and executed characters, which I would expect from two writers known for that, but after a promising start the villains get a real short shrift. They are very Lovecraftrian, several aspects of the novel remind me of his short story "The Thing on the Doorstep" but ultimately the villains are left extremely vague and queesy.
Waterdahvian politics have a large role but are glossed over and 'unearned,' the novel (and recall, it is written for FR fans who know the city well to start with) requires the reader to accept a sudden shift in Waterdeep's politics that has no antecedent or hint in any previous (or subsequent, as far as I can tell) tales of the city.
The final confrontation is extremely confusing in the beginning, only great good will for the authors will convince a reader to plow through it when they haven't been bothered to make it clear what is happening. The end is tragic and bitter-sweet, and the excellent character work allows the reader to enjoy that despite the novel's other flaws. An ambitious but flawed work that might have been much, much better.
I can't recommend it to others, especially non-FR fans as I said, but in the end, I did enjoy it and I am glad I read it. :) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 06:24:34
I think Tam knew that spell, or something similar. It's quite easy to assume he taught that spell to the "phantom" [who must be Malark] so that he could use it to prevent Druxus's allies and the uneasy zulkirs from discovering who the murderer was.
Being Netherese and a master of death-related magic, Larloch might have known that spell. And Tam, being his "errand boy," might have learned it from him. |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 05:52:40
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
As far as I know, it's a created-for-the-novel spell. (And a darn cool one too.) Wouldn't be surprised to learn Ed's been keeping it in his back-pocket since 1972, though. 
I'm not overly familiar with the various Netherese products and didn't want to read through them checking. It is a pretty obvious spell for someone to have developed. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 01:24:28
As far as I know, it's a created-for-the-novel spell. (And a darn cool one too.) Wouldn't be surprised to learn Ed's been keeping it in his back-pocket since 1972, though. |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 09 May 2011 : 00:35:10
Hey, throughout the novel Elaith uses a spell, it is described as a Netherese spell based on Elven lore, that involves branding a rune on the forehead of a corpse, and it prevents scrying or necromantic magic to contact the corpses' spirit to discover the killer. Does anyone know if this spell is from the books somehwere, or if it was just created by Ed or Elaine for the novel? |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 07 May 2011 : 02:44:54
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Hmm. Sounds like you just want to read a different sort of novel than Ed and Elaine wrote. Or, more importantly (see Elaine's posts, earlier in this thread) than the editors wanted to see written.
Sounds like should give the compliments to the editors for the parts I like, then?
quote:
I am interested in hearing from the OP about what he thinks of it when he finishes it.
I'll let ya know. I've got about a quarter of it left. It's very odd, but I am mostly enjoying it still. Not quite sure where it is going though, and the Amalgamation seems to have wandered in from some other novel. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 May 2011 : 00:46:33
Absolute fact? Wow, I wonder how will I manage to posit such a thing. Not even the authors themselves can present absolute facts. Ah, well, you can interpret it any way you want. Frankly, that hardly matters to me. That doesn't change what "I" think. |
| Malcolm |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 18:13:12
The problem is, Dennis, that by stating your opinions over and over again, usually phrased as absolute truth/fact, and usually rudely, too, you're presenting them as correct/supreme over other views.
Nobody's asking you to bend to the opinions of others.
But to me (and by the sounds of it, to Blueblade), you're not respecting other opinions. You say you are, but whenever some view you don't agree with is posted in this thread, you pop up to rather scornfully dismiss it.
That's not what I was taught "respect" means.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 16:36:12
Trashing? Nah, you might want to read my review on Whisper of Waves to know what that word means in "my" vocabulary.  I'm just pointing out what I don't particularly like about the novel. It has some good parts [those I previously mentioned], but it's hardly an excellent book, let alone a classic. I respect others' take on it. But that doesn't mean I have to bend to their opinions. |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 15:41:09
Hmm. Sounds like you just want to read a different sort of novel than Ed and Elaine wrote. Or, more importantly (see Elaine's posts, earlier in this thread) than the editors wanted to see written.
It's work for hire, you know. Overall content and shape of every book not up to the writer, but decided by the publisher.
And for the record, I LIKED all the banter and foppery. Fun to read, brought the characters very much to life, good stuff. May not have worked for you, Dennis, but that doesn't make it bad writing or a bad book . . . for me.
Because I'm stuck with my tastes, not yours.
And I know mine are just as good as yours, in general. And for me, personally (as I'm stuck with living with myself), they're BETTER.
I thought this was a great romp of a read. Not a deathless classic, and rushed or chopped in places (and we all know why), but well worth the reading time and money.
I'm not so interested in hearing you trash it over and over again as I am interested in hearing from the OP about what he thinks of it when he finishes it.
BB |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 04:36:26
Oh, THO, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it. I really think they are low-level. What I'm trying to imply in that post is that there are a lot more low-level characters [out there] which they could have used other than those ubiquitous and boisterous fops. True, they are convenient for the purpose of "showing" us Waterdeep. But a thief who knows every nook and cranny of the city, or a mage growing in power who happens to have strong ties with a few high ranking nobles would, I believe, just be as effective in giving us a tour around the great city. Anything that will save me from reading ceaseless blabbering and glaring foppery is fine. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 05 May 2011 : 02:44:32
Heh. The nobles aren't who Ed thinks the heroes of the novel are. His picks are the Dyre sisters.
And Dennis, the nobles ARE low-level characters, in the game sense.
As to why Elaine crafted a plot with them as the protagonists, I SUSPECT (from things I've heard Ed say over the years) that it had to do with exploring the clash of different classes (idle rich nobles vs. hard-working guildmaster's daughters), coming of age (as in: the nobles starting to "grow up"), and showing us Waterdeep (their wealth and social habits made it easy to show many places in, and sides of, the city to the reader without the far-fetched, implausible explanations that might have been necessary if other sorts of protagonists had been employed).
I enjoyed the result. I'd probably have enjoyed the full-length version even more. It has stood up to several re-readings for me, and every time I enjoy the Elaith scenes and the glimpses of Palace life more.
love,
THO |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 04:27:20
That's their idea of low-level characters, I guess. |
| Marc |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 21:49:42
I wonder why they picked spoiled nobles as heroes for the novel |
| Thieran |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 13:32:04
I happen to read it for the first time as well at the moment, and I am enjoying it more and more. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 12:08:08
I enjoyed this novel. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 08:44:47
Okay, I will.
It's just that this thread brings to the surface some not so old memories. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:27:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Paul, Ed says:
Thank you!
He also says:
Dennis, behave! You don't have to like our stuff, but your point has been made. Over and over. A little courtesy, please.
(A comment, BTW, with which I heartily concur. Not everyone's tastes coincide, and thank goodness for that.)
love,
THO
Yes, and I'll just add the friendly Mod backing to this as well.
We appreciate that each and every scribe has different tastes when it comes to Realms-fiction, but such commentary can sometimes prove to be misinterpreted by some of our less-frequently visiting scribes. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 04:23:22
Heh. Paul, Ed says:
Thank you!
He also says:
Dennis, behave! You don't have to like our stuff, but your point has been made. Over and over. A little courtesy, please.
(A comment, BTW, with which I heartily concur. Not everyone's tastes coincide, and thank goodness for that.)
love,
THO |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 06:56:11
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Happy I could answer your question, GMW, but I'll be bowing out of this thread now. If anyone has anything further to ask or discuss, I can be found in my Q&A thread.
Many thanks!
I'm a bit further now and i'm loving the noble chit-chat. It's almost to George MacDonald Fraser Flashmanlevel, and that is high, high praise indeed. :) |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 03:49:13
Happy I could answer your question, GMW, but I'll be bowing out of this thread now. If anyone has anything further to ask or discuss, I can be found in my Q&A thread.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 02:02:48
I recall I finished that in less than a day. Not because I was so engrossed by it; but more like I had to get over it as quickly as I could. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 22:39:28
Heh. No surprise you should say that.
Elaine did the lead plotting, and Ed was very pleased with the shape of the tale (not so much with the outcome, because the pruning made some things, such as the faith of the two characters you mentioned earlier, not get the coverage, in the end, it should have had), but as a narrative, yes, I agree that it combines the best of Ed and Elaine.
love,
THO |
| GMWestermeyer |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 16:52:32
Well, I'm now 100 pages in and so far this novel is living up to my hopes for an Ed/Elaine joint venture. I'm loving the look at how the noble/merchant antagonism in Waterdeep plays out. The dialogue has Ed's wonderful 'Realmsian' turn of phrase but not to much (Ed uses it too much in many of his solo works). Ed's sure-footed knowledge of Waterdeep isexcellent, but unlike Ed's flightly, incoherent plots this story has the steadiness and coherence that highlight's Elaine's works.
So far count me as a fan of this one! :) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 08:02:04
THO,
That "silent opinion of the readers expressed through their wallets" is already a given. Publishing is a business; so that comes foremost.
When I said I care about my readers' opinions, I didn't mean I do everything they request; correct whatever it is they find inappropriate or horrendous; and maintain those they think are commendable about my books and articles. I read their emails, and sometimes listen to suggestions I deem helpful---that is, if I have the time. But in no way do I "limit" myself to their opinions. One of my published books became very controversial (yes, you guess it right, it's a gay novel) because I introduce an antagonist (a college lad) who defies almost all Christian values. The emails I got from my readers, most of whom identified themselves as parents, were "attacking" my book, saying that the subject matter was highly inappropriate, that it somehow "stained" Catholicism in the Philippines; and that it's sending a "bad message" to all the youth out there. About 90% of the emails were like that; and only 10% contained well-meant thank-you's and commendations on my bravery for bringing a very delicate subject to the fore. Ironically, the sales of my book were ---ahem--- really high; higher than the sales of my two fantasy books combined. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 02:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
I would also have loved to see a khelben centered novel like Cormyr and Evermeet however.
-Blackstaff. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 22:21:04
Heh. Dennis, I suspect Baleful Avatar was "noting a point or two from some well-accepted literary standard," because to him, that librarians' board functions as a "well-accepted literary standard."
As a writer, I pay attention to my readers, but first pay attention to myself (otherwise, why write whatever it is at all?), and second to my editor (because if I don't, I don't get published).
As an editor, I pay attention to the telling of the story first and foremost, and to how it fits the planned publishing slot (length, content, matching sell copy already "out there" in the catalogue, and so on) second.
What matters to most publishers is not the expressed opinions of individual readers, but the silent "opinions" they express with their wallets. If Author X sells well, it really doesn't matter what I or you or the next reader over thinks of what they write, so long as their verbiage isn't going to land the publisher in legal trouble/unbudgeted costs.
I've been a writer, I've been a critic, and I've been an editor (more than the other two), and I tend to value crit most from people whose background and tastes I know. They may not be friends, I may not like them, and I may deliberately choose to read books they hated, because of what I've learned of how their tastes and discernment differ from mine.
And one thing I've learned from more than thirty years dabbling in publishing: there are a lot of "bad" or derivative or flawed/inadequate books out there that are beloved by somebody (sometimes a LOT of somebodies). There is no One Perfect Reader with tastes accepted universally; if books come along at the right moment in a particular reader's life, they can be lifechanging and become many-times-reread touchstones for that reader. (Even when the reader can see their shortcomings, at the time.)
I recall, long ago, having to gently explain to a colleague who was dismissing the Ellis Peters Brother Cadfael mysteries as "pale copies of THE NAME OF THE ROSE" that whatever she might have thought of them, they couldn't be derivative of Eco's book, because many of them had been published before Eco ever started writing THE NAME OF THE ROSE. So reader background has a lot to do with their opinions...
Something I always try to keep in my mind when I read the opinions of various scribes expressed here at the Keep.
love,
THO |
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