| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 04:44:24
I just had cause to re-read the early elven history in Cormanthyr, and something finally clicked. I know you all probably saw this years ago, but I'm a little slow due to liking elves and having preconceived notions.
Either the entire dark elf race --every single individual-- was hideously evil and in full voluntary, non-charmed, eager support of the Ilythiiri leadership and their actions against the other elven nations, or else Corellon is just as evil as Lolth in his condemnation of an entire race for the actions of a small percentage of its members.
Because if most dark elves (before the transformation into drow) were basically decent, then Corellon couldn't be bothered to just transform the evil ones. Nope. If one dark elf performs one ritual praising Ghaunadaur, then his entire family must pay. Forever, because all of their offspring are going to be drow, until the end of time. At least that's how Corellon intended the curse, because it didn't have a duration. If one family worships Lolth, their entire city must pay. (Even if it did have a duration, it was longer than 10,000 years, and that's an excessive response to an offense that only lasted maybe a few thousand years. And even if he had only transformed the evil ones, it would still be a really heinous punishment because it's not their descendants' fault.)
The alternative is that every single dark elf was in lockstep with every action perpetrated by Ilythiir. This implies that every single member of a race is capable of being in agreement about definitions of good/evil, standards of acceptability, whatever. If dark elves (again, before they were transformed into drow) were in 100% agreement about such things, then it's logical to assume that the gold elves were too. Every single gold elf was in full agreement with the greed and acquisitiveness and hatred of the Vyshaan clan of Aryvandaar? Ridiculous, and probably impossible, but that's not even the whole of it.
It's also necessary that the dark elves could not be redeemed. They weren't going to change and become less-evil, in any finite amount of time, and no intervention could be made to help them... not even direct action by the gods themselves. They were just too far gone. Since that would have to be true of the dark elves in order to justify Corellon's curse, then it would have to be possible for it to be true of other races as well. But we don't know of any cases where it is. A strange red/blue dragon can be brought up to live peacefully among humans and elves without snacking on them. Even drow can be good, even when raised in cities where every single creature they meet is evil. Ed didn't write a world governed by universal truths.
So the idea that all dark elves were evil enough to justify being transformed into drow is ridiculous. The idea that they could not be "rehabilitated" by any means... doesn't hold water. Drow are logically worse than the dark elves were, and even drow can change, and even drow --in spite of being almost universally evil by our standards-- have a range of motives and opinions and priorities.
It's likely that many dark elves still served the Seldarine... particularly the dark elves who weren't in Ilythiir.
So even in the best light Corellon comes off as vindictive and capricious, and taking his anger at Araushnee out on the dark elves. It's flabbergasting to me that (1) all dark elves who would ever live from that point forward were punished for the actions of a finite number of dark elves who lived prior to -10k DR, (2) all dark elves everywhere were punished for crimes committed by Ilythiir, and (3) gold elves didn't even get a slap on the wrist for waging three millennia of bloody wars and slaughtering thousands of "women and children" -- innocent kin. Aryvandaar was every bit as bad as Ilythiir, in terms of ending lives.
There's one way in which Aryvandaar was not-quite-as-bad, though.
The thing that just "clicked" is that the transformation of dark elves into drow wasn't about their attacks on other elves. I thought it was a punishment for being such savage murderous jerks, and for destroying elven homes with fire and corrupting spells; it seemed like a fitting punishment. Silly me. The Descent was a result of Corellon's hissy fit about (some) dark elves worshiping other gods, Araushnee in particular. Kill as many elves as you want; as long as you sing Corellon's praises he's cool with it. Wipe out an entire civilization that dedicated itself to the advancement of art and high magic... things which just happen to be in Corellon's portfolio. And while you're at it, don't just kill everyone... wipe them out so hard that their civilization is completely obliterated from the planet and the region is barren for thousands of years. No problem.
But don't you dare take his ex-wife's side after the divorce.
Corellon has a tantrum and curses thousands of elves because he can't handle rejection. This is the guy the elves worship -- because obviously they have to, if they don't want their entire race to be transformed into a light-hating raving lunatic. No wonder so many elves are callous hate-everyone psychopaths.
So I think I just figured out how I'm going to deal with the Year of Blue Fire in my own campaigns. It's Corellon who gets his throat slit, and the blue fire that sears the sky in various parts of the world is the elves and all their magic (mythals and other high magic, enchantments, etc) losing their connection to the Weave. That will have a ripple effect, and magic will change a bit, but there's no need for huge physical upheaval. The Seldarine will adjust, elves will still be able to use magic (through Mystra now instead of Corellon), and elven life will begin to improve.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 13:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The main question that comes to my mind is this:
Were the Ilythiiri blessed with a greater fertility than other elves BEFORE OR AFTER the descent (because Drow obviously have more children since they also throw them away easily)?
The latter may be a result of cap on total head-count in caves and greater population density it creates.
But you're assuming that it's the Drow who are "blessed with a greater fertility" rather than their cousins are cursed with lesser. Why?
Let's compare the surface Elves with... other surface Elves?
They used to do better than that. They have spread through the continent enough to eventually end up with border conflicts and conquests. Some still do better.
The Elves don't die out, for example, in Zakhara. But then, the Enlightened elves don't go monkeypoo if one of them hooks up with a human, and aren't particularly tempted to jump human bones as distinctly more alive than them in the first place. Nor do they have organizations like Eldreth Veluuthra and church of the Black Archer - humans outnumber them even in known holy slayer orders, not that such groups weren't far more decent than "baww! them all!" anyway. They don't run off and later when old allies ask where everyone is, have to say "oh, but you don't understand, when an Elf is being a chicken, it's totally special and awesome".
They would probably answer a suggestion to act like this with a stab in the face. 
In order to acomplish anything worth of a mention, the best of them don't need to invite non-elves to have something actually done, go live with other species, nor (no more often than humans do, anyway) abandon everything and seclude themselves.
Poscadar elves? They are just fine, and get along with Azuposi neighbours splendidly.
From the "mainstream" elves, some sylvan types are quite viable, but they paid for it with pretty much all traces of civilization. And (usually) becoming isolated oddities without allies outside their land - thus, given that they don't have an ambition to grow beyond being adequate to deal with threats they deal with daily, they tend to either live there only until the other shoe drops, or hide behind the treants' trunks whenever anything outside sneezes in their general direction.
Other non-surface elves?
Sea elves are somewhere between town and forest elves - but their life differs from surface elves in several important details, including religion mostly limited to their own ancestral deity. Much like the Avariel. Who have little in common with other elves, and either hold their own against a greater and deliberate threat of dragons or become pretty much forest elves with wings (see above).
In other words: the most obvious difference is that vast majority of those elves are not degenerate narcissists who can't be arsed to save their own behinds, and hinder anyone who tries.
So it looks like there's nothing inherently wrong with surface elves in general. It's just the result of a lifestyle they usually embrace.
That is, the Glorious Elven Way. Which they learned under Seldarine.
Which ma-a-ay be one of the reasons why Elves most capable of dealing with the rest of the world tend to be the ones who feel the need to follow deities of avariel, humans (be it Mystra or Sune) or drow (I suppose a Green Elf who paints her hair silver will be still a little wild - but quite likely less so than her cousin back at home).
Hmm? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 05:13:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such).
Either RSEs explain the changes in the setting from one edition to the next, or we assume that the world has always worked according to the rules we choose.
I have skin in this game and I won't let WotC have it both ways.  |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 02:12:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such).
You might be on to something. In the old 2E Drow of the Underdark, it is mentioned that some 16,000 years ago, "dark cults" of outer planar denizens were fighting worshippers of Lolth and have several times since. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:45:56
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Didn't see an inking of his influence when Kiaransalee got wiped either.
Doesn't mean they won't use him to "explain" it retroactively.
Exhibit A: Leira being killed by Cyric offscreen. It didn't happen, until it had already happened.
Didn't actually happen. It was a lie. Cyric was tricked. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:34:12
I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:21:44
The main question that comes to my mind is this:
Were the Ilythiiri blessed with a greater fertility than other elves BEFORE OR AFTER the descent (because Drow obviously have more children since they also throw them away easily)? They were turning to other gods not of the Seldarine, but were they also breeding faster and therefore even more of a threat such that within a generation or two, the Seldarine may have fallen? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Apr 2015 : 06:17:15
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Why doesn't history contain even a single mention of repentant high mages trying to fix it?
In an organized way? Because this would require first studying what have gone wrong. And they had other pressing problems - including consequences of Ilythiiri bindings failing all over the place and Aryvandaar assassins picking them off.
Also, the Elves in general and HM in particular don't have a habit of fixing their mess. Quite the opposite. Seldarine changed their poor babies' diapers every time, gave them lollipop, and they, well... remained babies soiling their diapers. That's how they eventually drove themselves to near-extinction, after all.
quote:
Why were the high mages unable to fix it?
The only way, obviously, is to revert one by one - providing HM are willing (see my quote from Cormanthyr above) and able and the specific victim trusts them.
Go on, imagine the process. "How about the Holy Elven Inquisition will take a look at you and if they'll find you not corrupt or too attached to anyone in Ilythiir..." yeah, there'd be queues of applicants. 
Oh, and that's some time after light sensitivity kicked in, so these were already in hiding.
quote:
Why were the Seldarine unable to fix it?
Same reason why they were unable to do it on their own and avoid the problem in the first place: outside their sandboxes, gods don't get to shake their rattles too broadly.
Also, the drow changed... "Cast out of Corellon's favor" - and out of his power (to the same degree as humans or halflings).
quote:
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that a possible completely unintended side effect of targeting a couple of evil-doers was damning their entire race to becoming drow?
It's an ancient Elven tradition, and they lost their ways far too much already. High Mages must have become "unaccountably shy" for a while, of course... Which also gives them one more convenient excuse to not actively seek the fix, BTW.
quote:
Why is there no guilt for diminishing the beauty of the world and darkening the history of the elves by turning the supposedly-universally-evil dark elves into the much-closer-to-universally-evil drow?
Because they are Elves. Shiny perfect (with occasional unfortunate exceptions to which there's no need to pay too much attention) "children of the Gods". It's never their fault. Especially when it obviously is.
quote:
2. As #1, but the Seldarine didn't try very hard to fix it.
If the Seldarine are Good, how could they so easily condone the damning of elven children?
See, here you already ditched the point that the result differs from intended.
If only Ilythiir was cursed, there would be less of them to revert, and this could be more between cursed and uncursed dark elves.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not all the dark elves were followers of Lolth yet, but left unchecked, they may have succumbed to her wiles (kind of ironic that they became hers, anyway).
If a plan leads to exactly the same outcome remote possibility of which it was supposed to prevent, maybe the correct descriptor is not "ironic", but plain "stupid"? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 21:31:16
*bows*? Lol jk. Part of the reason the post took me so long is that I am not the best debator. Even if I feel strongly about a topic and have a lot to say about it, conveying my thoughts is not my strong suit lol. In all fairness, I get where you're coming from, and I realize I am in the minority here. I have noticed that a lot people don't like elves and/or their gods, for various reasons. And I am not saying Corellon is without blame for the Descent. None of the FR gods are perfect (and that is actually part of their appeal for me), and they are prone to, if you will "human" emotions. But, because they are gods, their actions based on those
emotions have more drastic results than a mortal's would. We can't really know why the "oopsies" of the high magic ritual wasn't fixed, and I think some elven theologians are as baffled by it as we are. But again, we, as mortals, cannot understand the workings/motivations of the gods. I'm not saying what happened was right or fair, but I think it should be taken with a grain of salt because we just don't have that much information. All we really get is "the high magic ritual, performed by priests and mages and aided by the Seldarine, transformed all the dark elves into drow". No sourcebook I have scoured over the last few days goes into much detail about it. Maybe the designers did that intentionally, so that we would have to speculate.
I don't think Corellon should be labelled as evil, but I am not saying he's perfect, either. But I do think that in away, the curse of the drow became the elves' curse, too, because, as I said, the "consequence" of the ritual turned the drow into a pretty awesome race, and now the elves (and their gods) have to live with that. The curse has come back to bite them, and innocent elves are now subject to drow torment, just as the innocent dark elves were turned into drow. This is why I think there doesn't need to be further punishment for the Seldarine. Again, not right or fair, but the whole situation isn't.
I'm an elf fan, but I am a drow fan, too, and I am all for an alliance between Eilistraee and elves. At this point, I think they're tolerated, at least. Shevarashans for example are supposed to leave Eilistraeens alone, but I don't know how successful that's been, since they would likely shoot before looking to see if a drow wore a symbol of Eilistraee or not. I actually have a soft spot for Shevy, though, even though I think he is closer to getting the "evil" label than Corellon is.
The Seldarine will step in to help their people, but they also teach self-sufficiency, which is why I think it took so long for them to get involved with the Crown Wars. They wanted to see if the elves could settle things themselves. By the time the Descent happened, I think the Seldarine were pissed at the entire race, which is why they had the elven leaders form the Elven Court. They wanted to ensure something like this didn't happen again. By extension, that could include the Descent. The Seldarine didn't want to have another reason to banish anyone, or risk another "mistake" like Descent.
While we could argue the Seldarine should have fixed the curse--and that argument has merit--I think in the time since then, the Seldarine, and the elves as a whole, have become more humble. Oh, yes, elves are still prideful and haughty (particularly gold elves, and there are certain elves I can think of who are real jerk-faces), but they now strive more for the preservation of their people. The Crown Wars taught them a very hard lesson, and the elven population has never recovered. I have read a lot of FR books starring elves, and while there are definitely some who I dislike, the majority of them are kind and good-hearted. I think now the elves, and by extension the Seldarine, are striving towards the betterment of their race, and that is their alway of atoning for not only the Descent, but the Crown Wars as a whole.
And who knows, maybe when Eilistraee shows herself again, she may come back stronger.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 20:43:47
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
this took me a long time to write lol.
Corellon couldn't ask for a more loyal defender. 
I think we look at the whole issue from fundamentally different perspectives, and that will color how we perceive each new bit of information.
You like Corellon, and the Seldarine, and you find things that point to their goodness. Nothin wrong with that, it makes sense and I'm not criticizing... just saying I don't expect you to suddenly go "yea, what a bummer, you're totally right, Corellon is like Gruumsh's better-looking brother."
I'm coming from a perspective that says "this thing that was done was Evil, and given the lack of apparent attempts to remedy it I'm calling the one responsible Evil." And from that perspective, nothing I'm reading or that anyone has brought up so far is sufficient to redeem Corellon. 
But I don't mean for this to be a crusade against the Seldarine, or even Corellon. I was initially pretty peeved, due to my own liking for the elves and "heck yea, stab Gruumsh in the other eye!" This sorta rained on the parade for me. But you're under no obligation to feel the same way about it. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:35:30
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I would love to see Eilistraee have a second comeback. I'm as eager to see what has happened to her as others are. There have been rumors and speculation, yes, but I want some concrete info.
Yeah, but there have so many rumors and hints, even by people at WotC (Perkins), of her comeback that it is basically certain. Foreground info would be totally welcome though. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:32:05
I would love to see Eilistraee have a second comeback. I'm as eager to see what has happened to her as others are. There have been rumors and speculation, yes, but I want some concrete info. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:23:33
The thing is (we have repeated this many times now) the Vyshaan -the leaders of the gold elves- were cut off by the society, while for the dark elves -in the same exact situation- it wasn't only their leaders/mages/priests to be punished, but the whole race. And if it wwas a mistake, no one cared about it. And that is definitely unjust.
Corellon's situation wasn't of the ''you can only save either the gold elves or the dark ones, but not both'' kind. He could have saved both.
By cursing the drow, he didn't isolate Lolth's influence, he let it become stronger and stronger. He let her gain power and force his dark elven children into her arms. Her influence couldn't have spread among the elves anyway (as others have pointed out). If he wanted to cut down her influence, he should have operated otherwise, hunting down the Ilythiiri equivalent of the Vyshaan (and those -ironically- were left free to keep influencing the dark elves) and preventing their corruption from affecting the common people (who were likely mostly decent), for example.
As for the ritual, I think that we've discussed that before. At this point of the elven history, ''drow'' is no longer a curse, it is an identity that people are born with and are proud of. Drow -even Eilistraeens- are generally described as proud of what they are (and that is a totally normal thing). Eilistraee works so that the drow can grow and flourish in the world and establish themselves as rightful inhabitants of Faerun. At this point, removing the curse is not the issue, it is not what Eilistraee wants or fights for, at this point, acceptance is what is needed. Why should the drow give up on what they are just to be accepted? We have already talked about how the choice could be given. Anyway the ritual was actually Q'arlynd's and his team's work (and -from a meta perspective- WotC's way to remove all good drow that aren't Drizzt), so whatever ...
Besides, even if Corellon was behind it (and it would be an arrogant act, for what I've just said), it was waaay too late, and he still didn't do anything to actually, significantly help his daughter.
And Eilistraee could easily have a second comeback, now that the Sundering has restored her alongside the others (if she was actually gone, since it is totally possible that she has actually survived, albeit weakened and forced to hide, for reasons already discussed), but Corellon has to aid her, or that will hardly happen. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:08:15
As far as alignment goes, as I said earlier, I think that's where "chaotic" in CG comes in, because it would suggest that, while ultimately more good than evil, the CG individual could also have reckless tendencies (though Tyr is a lawful deity and, IIRC, he has made some reckless moves, too). The alignment of "lawful evil" has never made much sense to me, but I don't actually play D&D much, so I don't always understand the terms and alignments. And this of course brings up the age-old question of good and evil. Shar and Bane, for example, are evil deities, but so are Mask and Vhaeraun. The latter, while not an Eilistraee, is also working for the betterment of the drow (though his idea of that is different than his sister's). I don't think Vhaeraun is evil on the same level as his mother. I'm actually a fan of Vhaeraun as much as I am Eilistraee.
Anyway, you're probably right, xaeyruudh and we've said all that can productively be said, but I'll just say this, as I've thought about this a lot. I still like Corellon, and the Seldarine in general, and I likely always will. I believe that ultimately, they are good, or at least neutral, if we're going with alignments here (I believe Sheverash, for example, is CN, though I could be wrong). But I do agree that what happened with the Descent was...drastic. I also think however that we are looking at this through a mortal lens, and we, as mortals, can't always comprehend the actions of gods (I know they're fictional, but go with me on this). I believe that the Aryvandaar gold elves were as much at fault as the Ilythiiri, for they started the Crown Wars. I know the punishment of the Vyshaantaar empire does not match the Descent, but the Vyshaan were forsaken and cut off from elven society, which is essentially what happened with the dark elves, though granted, the Vyshaan were not sent underground or “marked” in the same way the dark elves were. As was pointed out, Corellon probably did favor the gold elves over the dark elves, as his worshipers are primarily gold and moon elves, and any god is going to favor their majority. This is not to say that he didn't have followers among the dark elves (pre-drow label), for those who didn't follow Lolth or other dark powers were followers of the Seldarine.
Corellon choose (in his mind) the lesser of two evils. It was either the elves, or the dark elves, who were becoming more and more influenced by Lolth and others (I know Ghaunadaur was another one). By the time of the Descent, some dark elves already were living underground, in a fortress called Narathmault, where they practice fiend bindings (these fiends turn on them when the Descent happens). Not all the dark elves were followers of Lolth yet, but left unchecked, they may have succumbed to her wiles (kind of ironic that they became hers, anyway). This is why I think, in a way, Corellon is already being punished for what happened. The "curse" turned the drow into a pretty awesome race, that, while "evil", are intelligent and resourceful. They are among the elves' worst enemies. Even though the spell didn't go as it was supposed to, the Seldarine could have seen it as eliminating a threat. By banishing -all- the dark elves, you isolate Lolth's influence. Again, it's ironic that they became hers, anyway. But “cursing you and your unborn child, too,” isn’t actually that uncommon. This is a lame example, but it’s all I can come up with: a woman in a royal court is pregnant, and she does something terrible, like try to usurp the throne or do something malicious to try and gain power. She is caught, and the king banishes her. Her unborn child, if she had left while enough alone, could have had a chance at the throne (assuming it’s a boy, and even if it was a girl, it could have had a chance for some sort of prominent position), but because of the actions of its mother, the king not only banishes her, but ensures that the child is cut off from succession. It’s cruel, because the child has done nothing wrong, but it ensures that the would-be usurper cannot use her future offspring against the throne, even though the poor child is blameless. The action of cutting off mother and child is seen as a “necessary evil”. Again, I realize this likely a lame example, but it’s all I could come up with.
If Corellon did see the mistake he made, and didn’t fix it for whatever reason (couldn’t, pride, or whatever), the “good since then” started with the creation of the Elven Court, and the destruction of the Vyshaan empire to end the Crown Wars. Since then, the elves have not fought against each other on this large of scale, and are mostly united, though there is ongoing tension between moon and gold elves. Eilistraee is making a comeback (or was, until the events of LP), though she could use help, I agree—that’s a lot of responsibility for one person, even a goddess. The elves, as a whole, have become a more peaceful race (there are power-hungry individuals, but that’s true with every race). And I think the Seldarine since the Crown Wars have themselves become more peaceful deities. That’s just the impression I get, based on novels, though Corellon hasn’t been a “character” since Evermeet.
The Crown Wars taught the elves—mortal and divine—a lesson, and again, one wonders why the curse wasn’t “fixed”, but this is one of the reasons why I wish there was more information not only on the Crown Wars, but on the events of LP. As was pointed out to me earlier, the ritual performed in LP didn’t give the drow/dark elves much of a choice, but I think with a spell like that, you can’t really choose. It’s not like an elf could raise their hand and say whether or not they wanted to be transformed. I think the biggest lesson to be learned here--and that still seems to need to be learned--is don't use High Magic unless you are certain of the outcome. I still think the ritual performed in LP was an -attempt- to undo the curse. That's how it appeared to me.
Anyway, sorry, I realize I was all over the place there. Posts were added before I was done writing, so I kept writings as thoughts came to me. I apologize if they appear haphazard and jump around ^^;this took me a long time to write lol.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't think that we should box them.
Ok, so maybe kung fu or ju-jitsu? 
Fair enough. Knowing only what we read, I'm frustrated too. I feel like rewriting a few bits of elven history if it ever becomes relevant in my games, because I'm not really comfortable with the elves (or the Seldarine) as written. But it's possible that there were other things in the designers' minds that didn't make it into the final draft of the sources we have. Also possible that other sources were planned and never made it off the printing press. And we're not even all in agreement about the sources we do have. There's definitely wiggle room.
Edit: and of course room to declare things completely different in our own campaigns. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:53:32
In world? Perhaps, as the kind of choice that they have made, their doing nothing to improve the situation (not even help someone like Eilistraee that is trying to fix the mess that they have created) is something that angers me. From an objective viewpoint, however, I don't think that we should box them. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:46:40
Well, yea, it's true that boxing them is awkward... and yet isn't that exactly what the Seldarine did with the dark elves? They're all evil, they're always going to be evil, they're already lost to the demons and Lolth, get rid of them. Doesn't that invite judgment of the same kind? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:40:18
Honestly, I can't say, because it varies on a case-by-case basis and (as you said) we all have our personal interpretation. However, to me this shows the limitation of the alignment system (unless you feel that ''neutral'' could cut it), because you can't put people in boxes, much less more complex beings (like gods).
(on your edit: I know and totally agree that the Seldarine's main guilt is their indifference after the curse, that's why I made the example of a person with enduring hatred towards someone). |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:30:53
Hm. Good mind darkened by hate toward a particular person... or dark mind that gets along fine with those it likes?
For me, good isn't capable of doing evil without remorse and atonement, while evil is quite capable of playing nice with others. Of course there are flavors and grades of good and evil, but I have little hesitation slapping a label on those who do evil and "let it stand" without mitigation or making exceptions for those who don't deserve it.
Edit: I don't ignore good things that people (or gods) have done. But doing something good for someone somewhere at some point doesn't bleach all the bad out of other things they've done... that would be no more fair or realistic than one evil deed completely overwriting a lifetime of good.
I'm not saying that the Seldarine are evil because of one little "oops" that happened 10k years ago, and ignoring all the good they've done since then.
I'm saying that whoever was responsible for the curse is evil because of the inherent darkness necessary to explain a callous disregard for thousands of innocents, over the course of thousands of years.
And I'm open to exploring the good the Seldarine have done since then. Has it really been good? Or just good for the elves, or certain elves?
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 17:36:26
The Seldarine are indeed completely guilty for the errors and injustice committed by them, and their behaviour towards the dark elves does have evil in it.
But lets consider a hypothetical person. This person has a twisted kind of hatred/anger towards someone and (s)he does all in his/her power to make life hell for his/her ''hated one''. On the other hand, this person is generally beneficial to everyone that isn't the one (s)he hates. Would you say that this person is clearly evil? I wouldn't (because I don't feel that the good (s)he has done should be ignored or devalued), but I wouldn't label him/her as clear cut good either. I would definitely say that (s)he has problems and that his/her actions toward the poor guy are evil, and that (s)he must be held responsible and redeem him/herself for that, though. That's what I mean when I say that you can't slap a ''evil'' or ''good'' label on the Seldarine and then be done with it, the situation is more complicated than that, IMO. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 17:04:37
Although it's also possible that we've said all that can productively be said. We either agree or interpret it differently, and both are fine. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 16:39:35
I feel the need to point out: despite all of my participation in this thread, and my unrelenting and possibly growing blame of Corellon, I'm not angry and I'm not trying to blast anyone who defends the elves or the Seldarine. Anyone and everyone is welcome to chime in, regardless of where you stand. If I'm wrong, I want to be educated.
I just can't wrap my head around it being a simple "oops" without even the tiniest bit of deep burning evil. It doesn't work.
1. Best-case scenario, in terms of everyone being considered Good afterwards. The high mages devised the curse and cast it entirely on their own, aiming it just at the leaders of Ilythiir. Corellon simply rubber-stamped it. Something went wrong, and it spread to affect not only all of Ilythiir but all dark elves. The high mages made their absolute best efforts to fix it, and couldn't. The Seldarine made their absolute best efforts to fix it, and couldn't. Everyone got over it, because Ilythiir was a terrible neighbor and the drow quickly outdid themselves in the Evil department, and soon nobody wanted to think about them.
Why doesn't history contain even a single mention of repentant high mages trying to fix it?
Why were the high mages unable to fix it?
Why were the Seldarine unable to fix it?
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that a possible completely unintended side effect of targeting a couple of evil-doers was damning their entire race to becoming drow?
Why is there no guilt for diminishing the beauty of the world and darkening the history of the elves by turning the supposedly-universally-evil dark elves into the much-closer-to-universally-evil drow?
2. As #1, but the Seldarine didn't try very hard to fix it.
If the Seldarine are Good, how could they so easily condone the damning of elven children?
3. As #1, but the spell required more than just Corellon's approval; the Seldarine had to empower it.
Given this increased role in the spell, how is it possible that several gods were unable to properly control and direct the curse?
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that even gods can't control it?
Pride and anger, in doses sufficient to allow 100 generations of undeserved torture and suffering, is evil. And there's no basis for calling it deserved; newborn drow are not guilty of their ancestors' sins. They are punished for them, but they're not guilty. This darkens the Seldarine, whether they cursed the dark elves themselves or rubber stamped it or failed to correct it. Even being unable to fix it isn't an excuse because if magic was malfunctioning somebody should have appealed to Mystra and Ao.
One doesn't simply wait for the drow to redeem themselves; the fault doesn't lie with the drow. Whether one is a high mage or a priest or a god, one fixes ones mistakes... expending all of ones resources, and ones life if necessary, in the effort. If one is not Evil. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 16:03:53
Oops, I forgot about Eilistraee already being out of the Seldarine by that time. That effectively removes the concern about her influence on the Elven Court meeting. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 15:45:24
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I didn't mean that Corellon wanted to separate Eilistraee from the Seldarine or punish her; just that he would have anticipated (with a groan and eye roll typical of fathers dealing with teenaged daughters, and vice versa) her derailing the Elven Court into fluffy forgiveness of the dark elves' apparent soft-headedness toward Lolth and decidedly unfluffy deeds. (Eilistraee wouldn't have condoned Ilythiir's military actions either, but I think Corellon wrote off the entire race because of Lolth and thought "dark elves" when he should have thought "leaders of Ilythiir.")
I think he would have tried to find a way to keep her quiet that didn't involve publicly ordering his own daughter to shut the bleep up... which would have gotten him the "cold shoulder" treatment from the other goddesses (annoying because Corellon has a libido and no more wife) and potentially prevented him from getting the support that his ego craved. IMO this led him to want the dark elves (or at the very least Ilythiir) gone before the Elven Court meeting took place. If the fate of the dark elves was already settled and done, Eilistraee could be exhorted toward productive thoughts -- if she insisted on whining about the past, then she would be marginalizing herself from the rest of the Seldarine and Corellon's goals for the future would still garner support among the other gods.
I was looking at Corellon's (with counsel from Sehanine and maybe others) decision-making process, which would take place before the curse and the Elven Court. It could have been prior to the Dark Disaster as well. It makes sense that the Seldarine would have been aware of the Crown Wars by that point, and they may have been pondering ways to end it, and simply been finally pushed into acting by the public prayers circa -10,110 DR.
So the Dark Disaster had just happened when the Descent took place. Eilistraee was undoubtedly brokenhearted, but also undoubtedly furious. Perhaps inconsolable, perhaps irrational.
I don't think Eilistraee's power level should be considered lowered by the loss of her worshipers in the Dark Disaster; I stand by her comparability with the other goddesses in terms of personal power... she just possibly didn't have much of a following anymore. The dependence of deities on the strength of their following didn't happen until the TOT.
Wow, that sounds truly nasty. I don't hesitate to hold Corellon (and the others, gods and priests alike with him) responsible for the mistake that the Descent was, but that premeditation and cruelty towards Eilistraee and her dark elves... Idk it seems a bit too much to me.
To me it looks like the curse mistakenly targeted all the dark elves, and Corellon/whoever didn't care and decided to let Eilistraee sort it (because -due to his pride/anger- in his mind -as you say- ''dark elf'' was the same as ''Lolth'' and he couldn't get to solve the problem himself), which doesn't make the situation any better, but at least doesn't make it sound as a premeditated and coldly calculated act (which would make Corellon -forgive me this expression- a frigging PoS).
On the last part, AFAIK at the time Eilistraee was a lesser goddess at best (patroness of dance, song, beauty, her worship mainly restricted to Miyeritar) her power far lesser than -say- Sehanine's or Hanali's, IMO her influence wasn't comparable to theirs (especially since she basically left the Seldarine in -30000DR, when Lolth betrayed Corellon). Perhaps she could have swayed some hearts, but to me it seems one of those cases where she would be considered biased/naive/shaken by the deaths of her people(?) and not taken seriously. But then, we can only speculate, since we don't really know anything about this side of the matter.
quote:
The lack of care with which the curse was aimed, the lack of mercy for individuals who might have been claimed by Eilistraee, and so forth, makes whoever approved it evil.
Yes, it is an evil act, but -as I said- even good people can do evil acts. Their real guilt is to have not done anything to correct it, which -as I said- IMO is due to pride and anger.
On the other hand, the Seldarine's behaviour towards non-dark elves is that of good deities, so it isn't easy to apply clear cut labels here.
|
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 15:22:05
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I didn't mean that Corellon wanted to separate Eilistraee from the Seldarine or punish her; just that he would have anticipated (with a groan and eye roll typical of fathers dealing with teenaged daughters, and vice versa) her derailing the Elven Court into fluffy forgiveness of the dark elves' apparent soft-headedness toward Lolth and decidedly unfluffy deeds. (Eilistraee wouldn't have condoned Ilythiir's military actions either, but I think Corellon wrote off the entire race because of Lolth and thought "dark elves" when he should have thought "leaders of Ilythiir.")
I think he would have tried to find a way to keep her quiet that didn't involve publicly ordering his own daughter to shut the bleep up... which would have gotten him the "cold shoulder" treatment from the other goddesses (annoying because Corellon has a libido and no more wife) and potentially prevented him from getting the support that his ego craved. IMO this led him to want the dark elves (or at the very least Ilythiir) gone before the Elven Court meeting took place. If the fate of the dark elves was already settled and done, Eilistraee could be exhorted toward productive thoughts -- if she insisted on whining about the past, then she would be marginalizing herself from the rest of the Seldarine and Corellon's goals for the future would still garner support among the other gods.
I was looking at Corellon's (with counsel from Sehanine and maybe others) decision-making process, which would take place before the curse and the Elven Court. It could have been prior to the Dark Disaster as well. It makes sense that the Seldarine would have been aware of the Crown Wars by that point, and they may have been pondering ways to end it, and simply been finally pushed into acting by the public prayers circa -10,110 DR.
So the Dark Disaster had just happened when the Descent took place. Eilistraee was undoubtedly brokenhearted, but also undoubtedly furious. Perhaps inconsolable, perhaps irrational.
I don't think Eilistraee's power level should be considered lowered by the loss of her worshipers in the Dark Disaster; I stand by her comparability with the other goddesses in terms of personal power... she just possibly didn't have much of a following anymore. The dependence of deities on the strength of their following didn't happen until the TOT.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Idk. I've always thought that not only Corellon, but all the Seldarine shared a part of the guilt, but I wouldn't call them evil.
Here I'm basing it on the declaration or assumption that the Ilythiiri and in fact all dark elves were irredeemable as an entire people -- the women, the children, the unborn proceeding generations... all were lost to Lolth and so evil that allowing them to remain on the surface and share legitimacy with other elves as elves would darken elfdom as a whole and quite possibly contaminate the Seldarine themselves. Melodramatic? Not really; all of that is necessary in order to really justify various aspects of the curse. Just the fact that a few individuals played nice with nasty things doesn't even begin to cover it, or else the entirety of the gold elven race would have to be transformed into drow as well.
The lack of care with which the curse was aimed, the lack of mercy for individuals who might have been claimed by Eilistraee, and so forth, makes whoever approved it evil.
So if the curse was somehow wrested from Corellon's control, say by Lolth, and he was originally intending the curse to only hit the leaders of Ilythiir, then the curse doesn't necessarily make him evil... he's just less of a god of magic than Lolth in that case. But how can that be? That argument raises a sticky question of how Lolth managed to change Corellon's magic, when Corellon's power was so much greater than hers that he could exile her and alter her physical form and there was nothing she could do about it. He's unquestionably on a higher order of magnitude than Lolth (at least at that point in time) so... it doesn't really work for her to control his power... unless maybe there was something like truenames or some other weirdness at work.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Along with what I've posted in this thread before, that makes me highly doubt that the ''demon influence'' trickled down to the common Ilythiiri.
Agreed. The elves of Aryvandaar and Ilythiir, in general, were innocent of demon-worship and evil intent. Dark elves were damned by the actions of a few, and the jealousy of a god.
Hm weird. Sounds kinda Greek there.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 10:58:03
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
He cursed (or allowed the cursing of; the distinction doesn't really matter) the dark elves circa -10,000 DR, depriving the dark elves of representation and input at the Elven Court. This may have been an important concern because of Eilistraee... she would have put up an impassioned defense of her people as a whole; punish the followers of Lolth, fine, but not the innocents. She was a goddess, on more or less equal footing with Sehanine or Hanali, and she might have softened some hearts, perhaps even amongst the Seldarine. Corellon didn't want that.
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I don't think that -among the other things- Corellon wanted to cut off Eilistraee from the Seldarine, mostly because the Dark Maiden had already chosen exile from the Arvandor (so her words would have much less weight than -say- Sehanine's) and because, after the Dark Disaster, she basically was a non-factor at the time: her church was destroyed, most of her followers dead, she may have very well been just another powerful drow at that point. If her managing to soften some hearts was what Corellon wanted to avoid, cursing Eilistraee's followers (and her too, it seems) alongside the others wouldn't have accomplished much for that, since she could have put up a passionate defense of the dark elves as a whole anyway (and it's what she has done and does, but it doesn't seem to be working very well).
There's also the fact that, assuming that the myth is true, Corellon loved his daughter Eilistraee, so he wouldn't have wanted to directly harm her. Although I must say that it seems to be a very weird form of love, given that he -perhaps unwillingly, because things went wrong in the spell- metaphorically kicked her when she was in a desperate situation. Admittedly, it is likely that -upon knowing that her whole people was going to be condemned- Eilistraee chose to be cursed too, to be at their side in their suffering and be a light for all the drow -basically, to be one of them-. However, she surely didn't choose to have what few of her surviving followers cursed -especially not after the hardships that they had just faced- and that is where her father -unwillingly or not- kicked her).
quote:
If we allow Corellon the nominal defense of having anger management problems, and consequently being heavy-handed and occasionally a bit brutal, then someone would have had to counsel him on this matter, particularly the option of punishing Ilythiir and the Vyshaan differently, and thus the Seldarine as a whole are implicated. One evil god, or a pantheon of evil gods.
Idk. I've always thought that not only Corellon, but all the Seldarine shared a part of the guilt, but I wouldn't call them evil (I would be hesitant to call them good, though). Corellon and the Seldarine actually love and take care of the rest of the elves, and even good people can do horrible things. Granted, they usually regret that and try to repair the damage that they have caused, while Corellon & Co. are keeping their facade of ''justice'', and that is -I guess- mostly out of pride. It is hard to put a label that says ''evil'' or ''good'', because their actions are varied. In this case ''discriminators'', ''arrogant/blinded by pride'' and so on would be more adequate IMO.
quote:
So in the eyes of elfdom as a whole, the Ilythiiri were the only ones turning to dark powers. Corellon knew better, though... he'd already thrown Malkizid into the Hells while he was exiling Araushnee. He knew that both the Vyshaan and the Ilythiiri were being seduced by the lower planes.
Indeed. Along with what I've posted in this thread before, that makes me highly doubt that the ''demon influence'' trickled down to the common Ilythiiri. Because why couldn't it be the same for the Aryvandaari, when we have two identical situations (leaders go full evil), and when we also have other records of gold elves breeding with demons (*cough* fey'ri *cough*), proving that they aren't ''above'' doing so. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:53:41
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
-the thing that likely triggered the curse- was that some Ilythiiri worshipped Lolth.
This is something that I keep landing on, too.
The gold elves weren't innocent --the leaders of the Vyshaan were taking their orders from Malkizid-- but that wasn't widely known at the time. (Champions of Ruin 155)
So in the eyes of elfdom as a whole, the Ilythiiri were the only ones turning to dark powers. Corellon knew better, though... he'd already thrown Malkizid into the Hells while he was exiling Araushnee. He knew that both the Vyshaan and the Ilythiiri were being seduced by the lower planes.
Corellon may have been inclined to punish both the Ilythiiri and the Aryvandaarans, because both were falling to darkness. Some of the Seldarine's priests were demanding that the Crown Wars be stopped and others that the Ilythiiri be punished for their crimes against elfdom. It's inevitable that some were also asking for Aryvandaar to be dissolved, because it was the obvious aggressor in the Wars. But the methods of dealing with the two nations could logically be different. Aryvandaar could be curbed by sending avatars to strike some awe into all the elven nations and basically declaring the Wars over... the Vyshaan were evil and would rebel against the Seldarine's orders and thus galvanize the majority of elves against them in one monolithic force. Strategic strikes would dissolve the empire... this is what happens in the Fifth Crown War, between -9200 and -9000 DR. This gave Corellon the opportunity to spare the gold elven race (which he probably favored) while still placating the other elven nations; only the Vyshaan clan need be doomed.
The Ilythiiri, on the other hand, were deemed "too far gone" -- their leadership was no longer even remotely loyal to the Seldarine and wouldn't be impressed by their avatars even if they were compelled to attend the meeting. But in fairness, the same was true of the leaders of the Vyshaan; they would feign deference to the Elven Court's ruling but as soon as the avatars were gone and everyone returned home the Vyshaan would resume their campaign of world domination and the enslavement and destruction of all other races. The majority of the sun elves and dark elves alike were innocent, or at least they wanted the fighting to be over so they could get back to their previously peaceful existence. Their only sin was following the orders of their Coronals, just as the Seldarine expected them to do.
The prayers sought the end of the Crown Wars. The high mages were researching a spell to get rid of Ilythiir. The gold elves could be given a second chance. So Corellon made his choice. He cursed (or allowed the cursing of; the distinction doesn't really matter) the dark elves circa -10,000 DR, depriving the dark elves of representation and input at the Elven Court. This may have been an important concern because of Eilistraee... she would have put up an impassioned defense of her people as a whole; punish the followers of Lolth, fine, but not the innocents. She was a goddess, on more or less equal footing with Sehanine or Hanali, and she might have softened some hearts, perhaps even amongst the Seldarine. Corellon didn't want that.
Because the dark elves were the worse of two evils in his eyes. Because some of them served Lolth and he "wrote off" the whole race. The gold elves were spared, even though they instigated the Crown Wars and were doing the bidding of Malkizid, because... at least they weren't worshiping Lolth.
If we allow Corellon the nominal defense of having anger management problems, and consequently being heavy-handed and occasionally a bit brutal, then someone would have had to counsel him on this matter, particularly the option of punishing Ilythiir and the Vyshaan differently, and thus the Seldarine as a whole are implicated. One evil god, or a pantheon of evil gods.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:14:12
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Would it not make more sense that if the dark elves have the ability to interfere with their enemies' most powerful of powerful magics and alter it without their knowing that they would instead change it to blow up in their self-righteous faces than allowing it to continue to smack them with the intended effects plus some more people?
Saboteurs working for Ilythiir, yes. Saboteurs working for Lolth, no, they'd just do what she says.
quote:
Also, what happened as written seems to be in line with other examples of high magic doing unintended damage and disastrous effects... unless you are blaming that on the dark elves, too.
Yes, but High Magic doing something unexpectedly beneficial - now that's unusual.
Sabotage could have ensured that the ritual gives them powers and larger starting population, rather than just messes them up and then blows up. So it's plausible and not unlikely, while not necessary either.
quote:
No one said, "how in the blankety-blank did that happen!?! Where did it go wrong? Show me that ritual sheet again!" Not even one of the "perfectionist" gold elves tried to track down the error and, I'm just saying, fix it?
HM going ugly, as you have noted, isn't too unusual in itself.
And yes, "them all!!1" is a recognizable part of elven mentality, so it was probably more of "oops..." than "oh, noes!"
Then add the assassinations of HM by agents of Aryvandaar having a good guess as to who's next.
quote:
If this is mortal magic then mortal magic should be able to undo it even on a one-on-one basis.
Not really. There's no reason why disintegration or induced vampirism "should be" reversible.
But... it is, indeed, reversible:
quote:
Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves
Suyoll/ "The Revival": This ritual restores an elf's life, health, and harmony with the Weave. This is seen as an acceptance back into the community of elves, despite any changes that occur during the elf's life (or death).
[...]
DM's Note: This ritual is rarely used, for the elves are a stubborn lot and forgiveness is not a virtue they practice often.
Thus, any outcast elf or seriously injured elf is often perceived
as pitiful or as a fool who learned his lesson for straying away
from the path of elvenkind. However, great sacrifices made
for sake of a clan or kingdom are looked upon proudly, and
the suyoll is invoked to honor heroes who act in such interests. This ritual can even restore a drow to status among the Tel'Quessir, though the ritual erases all powers (but not appearance) of the drow (judge as a moon elf).
In other words: typical HMs may throw their lives away for a grand enough gesture (like a mythal or last stand), but with no prospect of becoming a legend would take risk to (and before fall of Netheril - bother to) help even one of their own only when it would be really embarrassing not to. What dark elves?
And is this surprising?
quote:
Is Corellon, the god of magic & elves, just negligently unaware? He has to know exactly what will happen and what has happened or Corellon is a god of neither elves nor magic.
This have to fall somewhere between "guidance and inspiration" and "tacit approval", yes.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
My decision (so far) for my own games is that even with the most "kind" interpretation, Corellon is a cold and violent neanderthal in comparison with everything we've been told about elven ideals
How about everything we've been shown about elven ideals in action?
Or the very fact that elves know all too well who and what he is (again, Lafarallinn is their legend) and still see him as the ultimate embodiment of elvenkind?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The elves had been involved in a civil war that was long even by their standards. The Seldarine--and for that matter many elves--had had enough.
The consequences of the ritual were dire and sad, but the Crown Wars were ugly from all all angles.
And once the heretics were removed, it ended relatively quickly. "Whoops, the Seldarine suddenly realized Vyshaan are to blame for everything".
Which is why it does look like Aryvandaar was allowed to run as crazy as they want if crisis shapes the right way, and once there was no need, just rolled up like a dirty rug.
quote:
Lolth's infleunce was spreading, and to stop it, the dark elves had to be cut off from the other elves, to prevent the spread.
Or what? Other elves would strive to emulate already abhorred Ilythiiri and serve Lolth who doesn't give much of a damn for them other than as an opening to spite her ex-husband?
quote:
I believe there is hope for the drow, and perhaps the Seldarine are waiting to see what will happen.
Probably. But is there hope for the Seldarine?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Tangent: I think it would be interesting if the part of Mystra that oversees magic and the Weave overlaps the part of Corellon that serves as an interface for elven high mages... meaning part of Mystra and part of Corellon (and part of every other cultural god of magic) is the same entity
I assume that he's Elven equivalent of Azuth: keeper of their traditions (such as High Magic, bladesong, dualism). The difference is that Corellon generally seems to do little about it, and most importantly, neither does the "madhouse warden" part of the job himself, nor keeps around anyone who would. Which is fine for Elven thinking, but doesn't work well for any parties involved (as in, being spanked is bad, but makes a better lesson than being allowed to vaporize your ass and everyone in shouting range). Said traditions (except bladesong, but that's just natural selection) happen to be in decline at best. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:08:10
I'm using my phone instead of my computer right now, so I'm not going to directly quote, because it's a pain to do that on the phone ^^;
True, there is blame on both sides. I'm not eaying Corellon is flawless, but my point was he shouldn't be labelled as evil, and I don't think he should take the entirety of the blame
And, no, I would not blame it on the common people. And yes, initially, the Ilythiiri reacted because of what happened with Miyeriter, but I think their tactics were seen as overly violent, and they were harrassing moon elves who were trying to stay out the fight. The text didn't really going in to how the Ilythiiri used more brutal tactics than those who started the war, so that is a little confusing.
I agree Aryvandaar (and thus the Vyshaantar) should have been punished more severely and sooner, since they started the whole thing. But after the Seldarine told the elven leaders to get together and put an end to this whole thing, the elves found the Vyshaan guilty, and the Fifth Crown War was the fall of their empire. Their lives were declared forfeit. It's a complicated point in history, and all we--and for that matter elven historians and theologians--can do is speculate. None of the sources I have looked at go into all that much detail on the Crown Wars. It's mostly short paragraphs or sentences saying B group of elves did this, X god did this, and no one knows why Z happened.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 03:45:12
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Okay turns out I do have -Cormanthyr: Empire of of the Elves-. I read the Crown Wars section, and honestly, I can't see how the information provided places all the blame on Corellon and makes him seem like the bad guy. The only "blaming" piece I could find was the timeline, in which -10,000 was the year of the Descent, and there it says his magic, directed through priests and High Mages, changes the dark elves into drow.
To me, the blame lies more on the elves themselves (both the dark elves and the fairer slinned ones) than the gods themselves.
The blame lies on both, actually. Both parts had to be willing and aware, in order for the ritual to happen (barring stuff going wrong. But even then, in RL negligence is something that people are condemned for). I wouldn't say that Corellon is the ''bad guy'', rather that in a situation like that of the Crown Wars there is no good guy.
quote:
If the Crown Wars had not occurred, then the Descent may not have happened. But it does say the Ilythiiri brutally attacked moon and green elves of Keltormir, harrassing them. Their brutal tactics earned them the name "dhaeraow".
This doesn't mean that we can blame those tactics on the common people. Would you blame the ruthless and totally unprovoked attack that Aryvandaar launched on Miyeritar (not the Dark Disater, but the war that started the chain) on the common people? Would you blame the Dark Disaster itself on them? Also, IIRC, you could say that Ilythiir's attack on Keltomir had the purpose of doing justice to the slaughtered dark elves of Miyeritar (even if this likely is stretching it, and perhaps it was just a good excuse to attack).
It is also funny that the dark elves were ''immediately'' labeled as traitors of the people (dhaeraow) for the actions of their army and leaders, while the gold elves didn't get any nice label for doing arguably worse stuff (genocide).
At the end of the day, all parts committed atrocities (like in most wars), the only difference -the thing that likely triggered the curse- was that some Ilythiiri worshipped Lolth. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 03:31:12
Okay turns out I do have -Cormanthyr: Empire of of the Elves-. I read the Crown Wars section, and honestly, I can't see how the information provided places all the blame on Corellon and makes him seem like the bad guy. The only "blaming" piece I could find was the timeline, in which -10,000 was the year of the Descent, and there it says his magic, directed through priests and High Mages, changes the dark elves into drow.
To me, the blame lies more on the elves themselves (both the dark elves and the fairer slinned ones) than the gods themselves. If the Crown Wars had not occurred, then the Descent may not have happened. But it does say the Ilythiiri brutally attacked moon and green elves of Keltormir, harrassing them. Their brutal tactics earned them the name "dhaeraow".
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