| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Baptor |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 04:53:34
So in case you didn't know, the player's companion to WOTC's newest adventure, Princes of Apocalypse, is available for free download.
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/elementalevil_playerscompanion
Tucked inside was a piece of new Realmslore that I found very interesting.
"Most air and fire genasi in the Realms are
descendants of the djinn and efreet who once ruled
Calimshan. When those rulers were overthrown, their
planetouched children were scattered. Over thousands
of years, the bloodlines of those genasi have spread
into other lands. Though far from common, air and fire
genasi are more likely to be found in the western regions
of Faerūn, along the coast from Calimshan north up to
the Sword Coast, and into the Western Heartlands to
the east. Some remain in their ancient homeland."
Now you might read that and say, "So what? Yeah, that's the history of Calimshan." And it is. But it's what this burb doesn't say that interests me.
No mention is made of what happened to Calimshan in 4e. None. What. So. Ever.
Yeah, efreet and djinn ruled and fought over Calimshan thousands of years ago. Humans overthrew them and their half-breed offspring scattered into Faerun. But in 4e the efreet and djinn escaped their prison beneath the sands, overthrew the humans and enslaved them, and created a new nation made up of gensai.
Is that mentioned? Nope!
Now maybe it was omitted for space, but my hope is that isn't the case. I think if Gensai were still ruling and reigning in 5e Calimshan, we'd have been told. From what it seems, WOTC is trying to quietly sweep the unpopular bits of 4e under the rug. Not a retcon, we know that, but simply glossing over it.
At the very least, it seems that they are returning the parts of the Realms back to what they were meant to be. And I am happy.
PS. Al Quaddim is also mentioned. Enjoy! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:55:17
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
IMO suppressing info doesn't make sense, though. You are purchasing a FR book because you want to know about the setting, not because you want to read that history has been forgotten. People will do the latter in their campaign, in-character.
A table of knowledge check DCs (or progressive depths of knowledge, or soemthing along those lines) -as Delwa suggests- to provide an in-characters PoV would be fine, as long as all the lore gets told to the reader in the book, split among the various results.
But seriously, I wouldn't purchase a book just to get little info under the pretense of ''mystery'', because most people in world wouldn't know...
A whole book, no, I agree. I want that blend of "DM/hidden info" and "PC Knowledge." I'd like it to be separated out for me if possible, but I do want both. I don't think that suppression is what Jeremy is asking for. What we are reading here with the genasi is a description of the race so a PC can understand the race and decide if they want to play them. It's just the race descriptions that would be in the PHB.
If this were a "for the DM/hidden lore" description, I'd definitely share your sentiment. As DM, I should have access to the hidden histories, the secrets of forgotten legends, etc. But as a Player (and this is the Player's Guide) I don't need that information.
I see your point, those info should be contained in a CS or regional/themed sourcebook. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:46:22
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
IMO suppressing info doesn't make sense, though. You are purchasing a FR book because you want to know about the setting, not because you want to read that history has been forgotten. People will do the latter in their campaign, in-character.
A table of knowledge check DCs (or progressive depths of knowledge, or soemthing along those lines) -as Delwa suggests- to provide an in-characters PoV would be fine, as long as all the lore gets told to the reader in the book, split among the various results.
But seriously, I wouldn't purchase a book just to get little info under the pretense of ''mystery'', because most people in world wouldn't know...
A whole book, no, I agree. I want that blend of "DM/hidden info" and "PC Knowledge." I'd like it to be separated out for me if possible, but I do want both. I don't think that suppression is what Jeremy is asking for. What we are reading here with the genasi is a description of the race so a PC can understand the race and decide if they want to play them. It's just the race descriptions that would be in the PHB.
If this were a "for the DM/hidden lore" description, I'd definitely share your sentiment. As DM, I should have access to the hidden histories, the secrets of forgotten legends, etc. But as a Player (and this is the Player's Guide) I don't need that information. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:39:47
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
That's one thing I hope we get more of: in-world views and perspectives, and less overarching/all-seeing viewpoints. History is suppressed and forgotten in the Realms, and that should be reflected in Realms writing, just as readers should be sophisticated enough to pick up on it.
IMO suppressing info doesn't make sense, though. You are purchasing a FR book because you want to know about the setting, not because you want to read that history has been forgotten. People will do the latter in their campaign, in-character.
A table of knowledge check DCs (or progressive depths of knowledge, or soemthing along those lines) -as Delwa suggests- to provide an in-characters PoV would be fine, as long as all the lore gets told to the reader in the book, split among the various results.
But seriously, I wouldn't purchase a book just to get vague info under the pretense of ''mystery'', because most people in world wouldn't know... |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:33:31
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
That's one thing I hope we get more of: in-world views and perspectives, and less overarching/all-seeing viewpoints. History is suppressed and forgotten in the Realms, and that should be reflected in Realms writing, just as readers should be sophisticated enough to pick up on it.
I do hope for more of that kind of writing. I like being able to hand my PC's a list of "this is what your character is aware of by default" things rather than going, "ok, you know what's written in that paragraph, that sentence," etc and having to filter the knowledge myself. It's one of the things I noticed in some of the 4E products I did like. I forget the source, but I saw several tables with Knowledge checks listed by DC. If you rolled a 10, you knew this, a 15 revealed a little more, and so on. Being able to read that helps me think like a person who lives in the Realms. Sure, I can figure that out myself, there might be stuff that I think should be more common knowledge than the authors do, or less so, and I'll happily hash that out on my own, but if they continue doing that work for me, I'm not going to complain.
|
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:20:02
That's one thing I hope we get more of: in-world views and perspectives, and less overarching/all-seeing viewpoints. History is suppressed and forgotten in the Realms, and that should be reflected in Realms writing, just as readers should be sophisticated enough to pick up on it. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:14:36
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
While it is obvious that water and earth genasi are descended from dao and marids, there's not a record of dao and marids ruling in the regions specified like there is in Calimshan.
Yeah because **** the Dao Delvings and the Marid States, right?
And no, it's not for you Delwa, it's for whoever didn't do his/her homework properly.
I wouldn't necessarily jump to that conclusion. It's possible (and maybe even likely) that the author was unaware of that, but I took this block of description to be written from an in-world perspective. That is, everyone has at least hear rumor that the fire and air genasi are descended from Calishites. Just look at current events that Baptor listed, it makes sense that most people who've heard of Calimshan would know a few rumors of the Genasi lineage tied to that region. It's what's trending on the Realms version of Facebook. It's not as common knowledge that other empires existed. (I honestly didn't realize that until you just commented.) We as Realms fans are likely only aware of those empires because we read and study histories. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
While it is obvious that water and earth genasi are descended from dao and marids, there's not a record of dao and marids ruling in the regions specified like there is in Calimshan.
Yeah because **** the Dao Delvings and the Marid States, right?
And no, it's not for you Delwa, it's for whoever didn't do his/her homework properly. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:56:40
So... even 5E has plot armor. I'd guess that's a +30 to AC and immunity to all conditions and damage types?
|
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:54:40
Yeah, should have put more emphasis on the 'kind of'.
It's made very clear however that any PCs active in Phlan shouldn't be powerful enough to be taking on a dragon like the one now ruling the city and that trying to would be suicide. This, I believe, is just a poor plot device to shepherd players toward Mulmaster so they can take part in the Elemental Evil expeditions. It does mean though, that there is currently no hope for Phlan. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:44:43
Aye, I wouldn't call that "nuked", though. Nuked to me is a rift in the middle of the city of Neverwinter. Filling that in would take a world of explanation. It can be hand waved and filled in, but that's still going to have a major impact on the geography and the people's perception of the location. I know I wouldn't want to start building on what might be a filled in sinkhole waiting to drop out from under me again.
In the case of Phlan, as far as I have read (which is about as much as you've posted) the location is still there, habitable, and rulers are easily replaced. War might turn some buildings to rubble, but as long as the land itself is still safe, people will rebuild. It is a war zone, but that's current events, not "this entire region is gone."
Edit: and, like you said, Phlan is kinda used to getting the short end of the stick. Makes for a hearty people that won't give a rift about invading armies.  |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:38:25
I dunno - 5e has kind of nuked Phlan. The Lord Protector is dead, there was the threat of a full scale street war, then Tyranthraxus came back as a stone giant and now an evil dragon sits on the throne.
Of course, Phlan is used to getting nuked. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:28:31
 True enough, but it's only nuked in certain regions. And retrofitting the 5E details into the 3E setting is what I've been doing myself. When I have updated material I like, I slide it in. When I don't, I generally just take the same mayor/lord/inkeeper's personality and change the name and make him the descendant of the 3E guy.
Funny enough, in my current campaign, travelling from Waterdeep to Llorkh, (they are planning on taking the Black Road across Anauroch) the area hasn't changed too much. A few of the smaller cities are gone, but that makes sense for a 100 year time gap. Small towns rise and fall. The major locations - Secomber, Loudwater, etc are still there. There's been a few changes of power, but nothing that just doesn't make sense as leaders who are human generally don't live 100 + years. I'm keeping The Smiling Satyr, just because I have some fun planned that fits that location.
Now, don't get me started on Halruua, Lurien, or any of the more Southern regions.... 
Which... might explain why most of the adventures published lately have stayed on the Sword Coast and Moonsea. Just looking at the 4E map, they were least touched, geographically speaking. They might be staying to those regions, not solely because nostalgia and such, but because they are deciding how to patch up the more nuked regions. Hmmm.... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:23:52
When in doubt just retrofit what few pieces of lore are released for 5e into the 3e setting (assuming you like them). It is a much easier task than retrofitting the 3e details into the 5e setting. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 15:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
Whoa wait a minute, did you read what it said? It recommends the 3e FRCS as a "good general resource for the Forgotten Realms." It does say that its out of date by about 100 years, but it's at the top of the list as the go-to source for Realms info atm. The 4e guide is mentioned last and only as a resource for the Spellplague.
This is really good news folks. If they recommend the 3e FRCS as the best source of general Realms info, it means the 5e Realms will look more like 3e than 4e. They almost make me believe in them again. We will see. 
Yep. I saw that.  The FR Wiki gives me a brief synopsis of most of the major 4E changes, so if my campaign is going to a specific area, I just check the wiki to see if 4E blew it up or changed who's in power and keep moving.
When in doubt, just assume that 4E blew it up.  |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 14:13:37
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
Whoa wait a minute, did you read what it said? It recommends the 3e FRCS as a "good general resource for the Forgotten Realms." It does say that its out of date by about 100 years, but it's at the top of the list as the go-to source for Realms info atm. The 4e guide is mentioned last and only as a resource for the Spellplague.
This is really good news folks. If they recommend the 3e FRCS as the best source of general Realms info, it means the 5e Realms will look more like 3e than 4e. They almost make me believe in them again. We will see.
Yep. I saw that. That's why I've been more optimistic about playing/running the Realms right now. The FR Wiki gives me a brief synopsis of most of the major 4E changes, so if my campaign is going to a specific area, I just check the wiki to see if 4E blew it up or changed who's in power and keep moving.
And yes, Laeral is now Open Lord of Waterdeep. It's in the Rise of Tiamat adventure, but I'm not sure what page. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 13:27:07
She didn't just challenge him, she won! Neverember now only has temporal power in Neverwinter. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 05:01:17
Didn't one of the hardback adventures name Laeral as a challenger to the Open Lord of Waterdeep? Another nugget of Realmslore there. |
| Baptor |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 04:54:58
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
The reason I posted the blurb wasn't to say, "Here is 5e Realms sword sharpened and raring to go!" but to say, "Here they are starting to release up-to-date Realmslore, and I like the direction they are going so far."
This thread is very much appreciated by yours truly. 
You're welcome. I hope for the best, I really do.
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Good find! I still hold that the "lack of material" isn't a problem. As evidence, I bring forth the Adventurer's League Player's Guide.. The last page links any prospective DM to the previous edition pdfs.
Whoa wait a minute, did you read what it said? It recommends the 3e FRCS as a "good general resource for the Forgotten Realms." It does say that its out of date by about 100 years, but it's at the top of the list as the go-to source for Realms info atm. The 4e guide is mentioned last and only as a resource for the Spellplague.
This is really good news folks. If they recommend the 3e FRCS as the best source of general Realms info, it means the 5e Realms will look more like 3e than 4e. They almost make me believe in them again. We will see. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 02:47:40
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
The reason I posted the blurb wasn't to say, "Here is 5e Realms sword sharpened and raring to go!" but to say, "Here they are starting to release up-to-date Realmslore, and I like the direction they are going so far."
This thread is very much appreciated by yours truly. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 01:23:34
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
As to the first part, I agree. :)
Funny thing is, I actually liked how the 4e Realms book was structured. I liked how it gave me as a DM just enough to go on and left the rest to me. I rejected it though, because of the changes it wrought on the Realms. TO give a relevant example, I loved Calimport as a city of dark intrigue, not a depopulated slave city run by genies. Sad panda. :(
While I had a certain appreciation for the intricately detailed 3.5 Realms, it overwhelmed me at times and I really prefer a book of lite lore (more like OGB) than the stuff in 2nd and 3rd editions.
The reason I posted the blurb wasn't to say, "Here is 5e Realms sword sharpened and raring to go!" but to say, "Here they are starting to release up-to-date Realmslore, and I like the direction they are going so far." Clearly we have a long way to go yet! But we can see already they are keeping to the revision of the Realms they hinted at back in 2012 of a return to "Ed's Realms" and the "core truths of the Realms." That makes me a bit more hopeful than I was about it.
As far as how in the world did Calimshan get out of that hot mess, your guess is as good as mine, but the idea posted earlier about a magical experiment to re-imprison the genies is a likely solution. From what we've seen in the Sundering novels, they aren't fixing things with subtle plots but with broad strokes of, "these guys opened a portal and it drained the water off of Lurien and now everything's fine again OK?*"
*That has not happened. Yet. :)
How the book was structured, yes, I can agree with that. I didn't begin running the Realms until quite some time after buying my 3e Setting. Lots of time to read and digest all that info. If I were buying the book to run a game quickly, I'd prefer the 4e format.
I do like the tidbits of lore we have gotten in this. I honestly was skeptical about buying the adventure, as the story didn't interest me. This pdf has made me reconsider, just for the potential lore in the volume. |
| Baptor |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 00:32:08
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Good find! I still hold that the "lack of material" isn't a problem. As evidence, I bring forth the Adventurer's League Player's Guide.. The last page links any prospective DM to the previous edition pdfs. If you want to run Calimshan (or Waterdeep, or whatever) in more depth, the resources are there to purchase, download, read, and go.
The thing is, current products have everything you need to run the adventure. It's also stated that you can drop the adventure into your own world if you want. Adding more Realms-specific lore to an adventure could be daunting to a new DM trying to run the adventure in his home brew world. If you want more depth, the resources are provided. You can flavor Calimshan after whichever era appeals to you if you want to go into depth on it.
Back on the original topic, I wonder how (if Baptor is right and Calimshan is back to it's pre-4E society,) that came about. I'm not well read on 4E lore. Were there any plot hooks in the 4E material that might have been drawn on to bring about this overthrow of power? Were there any pieces in place to make this happen, or is this something likely pulled out of the blue?
As to the first part, I agree. :)
Funny thing is, I actually liked how the 4e Realms book was structured. I liked how it gave me as a DM just enough to go on and left the rest to me. I rejected it though, because of the changes it wrought on the Realms. TO give a relevant example, I loved Calimport as a city of dark intrigue, not a depopulated slave city run by genies. Sad panda. :(
While I had a certain appreciation for the intricately detailed 3.5 Realms, it overwhelmed me at times and I really prefer a book of lite lore (more like OGB) than the stuff in 2nd and 3rd editions.
The reason I posted the blurb wasn't to say, "Here is 5e Realms sword sharpened and raring to go!" but to say, "Here they are starting to release up-to-date Realmslore, and I like the direction they are going so far." Clearly we have a long way to go yet! But we can see already they are keeping to the revision of the Realms they hinted at back in 2012 of a return to "Ed's Realms" and the "core truths of the Realms." That makes me a bit more hopeful than I was about it.
As far as how in the world did Calimshan get out of that hot mess, your guess is as good as mine, but the idea posted earlier about a magical experiment to re-imprison the genies is a likely solution. From what we've seen in the Sundering novels, they aren't fixing things with subtle plots but with broad strokes of, "these guys opened a portal and it drained the water off of Lurien and now everything's fine again OK?*"
*That has not happened. Yet. :) |
| Delwa |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 23:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
What I do not understand is this:
"In contrast, water and earth genasi have no common
history. Individuals have difficulty tracing their own
lineage, and bloodlines occasionally skip a generation
or two. Many earth genasi originated in the North and
spread out from there. Water genasi come from coastal
areas, the largest concentration of them hailing from the
regions surrounding the Sea of Fallen Stars."
Why are they ignoring the fact that it is well known there are 4 main genies, one of each element, and that clearly anyone who asks the right people about earth and water genasi is that they descend from dao and marids.
Why not just say they descend from Marids and Dao? I am puzzled by making it a "mystery" when it truly isn't.
Back up a paragraph.
"Most air and fire genasi in the Realms are
descendants of the djinn and efreet who once ruled
Calimshan. When those rulers were overthrown, their planetouched children were scattered. Over thousands
of years, the bloodlines of those genasi have spread
into other lands. Though far from common, air and fire
genasi are more likely to be found in the western regions
of Faerūn, along the coast from Calimshan north up to
the Sword Coast, and into the Western Heartlands to
the east. Some remain in their ancient homeland."
The air and fire genasi trace their lineage back to those that ruled Calimshan. While it is obvious that water and earth genasi are descended from dao and marids, there's not a record of dao and marids ruling in the regions specified like there is in Calimshan. Fire and air genasi likely hail from a specific group of djinn and efreet, but we don't know what specific group of dao and marids gave parentage to the earth and water genasi. |
| Razz |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 23:10:01
What I do not understand is this:
"In contrast, water and earth genasi have no common
history. Individuals have difficulty tracing their own
lineage, and bloodlines occasionally skip a generation
or two. Many earth genasi originated in the North and
spread out from there. Water genasi come from coastal
areas, the largest concentration of them hailing from the
regions surrounding the Sea of Fallen Stars."
Why are they ignoring the fact that it is well known there are 4 main genies, one of each element, and that clearly anyone who asks the right people about earth and water genasi is that they descend from dao and marids.
Why not just say they descend from Marids and Dao? I am puzzled by making it a "mystery" when it truly isn't. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 22:02:47
When you have a product like the 3rd edition FRCG and then you get that cap that was the 4th edition one, you don't want the next edition to be a repeat of the whole "we left it simple so you can make it your own" BS. I can make it my own with a thick tome if I wanted to.
I pay for a campaign setting because I want it thick with information that I don't have to work much on. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 21:10:05
But they have done most of the work already. It's been done in tons of game copies throughout the years. You have history, geography, climates, cultures, cities, governments, etc spread out through all the products that are available on their pdf store. The work is done for you, you just have to go get it if you don't already own it, just like you would with a Boxed or Bound Campaign Setting.
The relatively minor changes that take place (who's in charge, is this city now/still a ghost town, how much of the Great Rift was actually filled in, are there any pockets of Spellplague lands left,) aren't things you need to run a world unless you're going to be adventuring in that specific region and care about canon.Those details are about the things that have already been filled in. Those specific answers aren't building a world, they are answering questions about a world that's already fleshed out. They are questions for people who want to know about the official history of the world, they aren't needed for play and enjoyment. You know where most of the rivers, roads, oceans, mountains, cities, and cultures are. The work is done for you if you want to play and have fun.
|
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 20:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but the point of campaigns settings is to have a place that is ready to go right out of the box.
I'd have to disagree. It's nice to have a campaign MOSTLY setup for you, but the DM should have enough wiggle room to make it his own. Heck, with enough creativity and planning you can run the same campaign multiple times without getting bored.
I've never known a campaign setting that didn't allow wiggle room. I'm really not sure where you are trying to go here. A campaign setting is there for you to basically start up right away instead of creating your own from scratch.
I want to pay Wizards to do most of the work for me, not me doing most of it. If I'm going to do most of the work then I will save myself the money and come up with my own. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 20:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but the point of campaigns settings is to have a place that is ready to go right out of the box.
By that logic the Grey Box was a total failure.
Of course it wasn't a failure, but back then people didn't have the luxury of decades of accumulated Realmslore to draw on like they do now.
Dungeon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys.
I own the Grey box so you aren't really comparing like for like. I find the Grey box more ready to run than the 4th edition FRCG. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 19:35:48
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but the point of campaigns settings is to have a place that is ready to go right out of the box.
I'd have to disagree. It's nice to have a campaign MOSTLY setup for you, but the DM should have enough wiggle room to make it his own. Heck, with enough creativity and planning you can run the same campaign multiple times without getting bored. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 19:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I'm sorry but the point of campaigns settings is to have a place that is ready to go right out of the box.
By that logic the Grey Box was a total failure.
Of course it wasn't a failure, but back then people didn't have the luxury of decades of accumulated Realmslore to draw on like they do now.
Dungeon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 18:27:29
A quick Googling brought up this on Airspur. Seems it's been nuked in the Spellplague era. Unless it's been rebuilt, it would make sense not to mention it if it no longer exists in the current timeline.
The article is somewhat confusing to me, though. It says it was largely destroyed, but at the same time, the city comes from Abeir, meaning it's a 4E addition?
I guess it would make sense that any displaced Genasi would seek a new home/kingdom, but how it was gone about is kinda... muddled to me.
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