| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:24:21
At Gencon during the Candlekeep Meetup, Brian James and Eric Menge mentioned a unique fate to any Dark Elves worshipping Eilistraee due to their good nature.
Is there any chance it can be elaborated upon here, or is it under NDA? I know that the authors said WOTC chose not to run with it, but I wonder if it is possible to discuss your ideas here?
Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 23:15:54
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
If you agree with what happened in LP (as far as the mortal's speculation on what happened), why confirm it?
I would far prefer uncertainty, rather than confirming the mortals' speculation and then having to live with a totally screwed up history for the goddess when/if she returns.
Until some months ago I thought that Brian/Eric's lore was our last chance to see Eilistraee alive in the present FR. I also thought (and that's what I currently know) that the ''sacrifice'' stuff was kind of canon (the alternative would be Eilistraee going full retard and letting Qilué be killed by the sword, while taking a huge blow herself, probably not enough to die -because by canon deities can only be directly killed in their home realm- but still enough to be reduced in a powerless status), and Brian/Eric found a meaningful way to fix it.
Now I know that Ed has prepared something that will make Eilistraee alive in the current FR, and if it simply leaves LP behind (in a ''it has happened, now things are different'' fashion, like the Sundering is doing with other events), I'll be happier to be honest (unless Ed found a way make something awesome out of it, while restoring the two drow twins, which could totally happen with him) because those novels could be the best, coolest and most awesome books ever, but what happened in them only hurts Eilistraee/Vhaeraun and doesn't fit them (in fact they were explicitly commissioned to get rid of Eilistraee, the drow pantheon, and any good drow but Drizzt, so that he could be even more iconic...).
This however doesn't mean that I'm not interested in seeing what Brian and Eric came up with. It sounded like a valid way to fix LP (I mean, what that story brought to the Dark Seldarine is what it is...), restore Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and expand on Rhymathiin and the transformed elves. A this point it would be fanon anyway (and if the ''sacrifice'' interpretation of LP weren't canon -which I hope-, it wouldn't be confirmed) so why not reveal it? |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 23:04:43
If you agree with what happened in LP (as far as the mortal's speculation on what happened), why confirm it?
I would far prefer uncertainty, rather than confirming the mortals' speculation and then having to live with a totally screwed up history for the goddess when/if she returns.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 22:44:05
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ed has indeed written new lore about Eilistraee (and likely Vhaeraun) post Sundering, and she and her brother are very likely currently alive, given all that was said about them. What Brian would give us is unofficial lore anyway at this point (unless Ed chose to build upon it), so -barring NDAs- where's the harm in that?
Because, as I stated fairly clearly I think, it might conflict with lore they have planned.
Unoffical lore is, well, unofficial and harmless, so I -personally- don't see a problem there (just treat it as fan lore, because at this point that's what it basically is).
quote:
quote:
E&V teaming up was a speculation, even though I'm sure about the Masked Lady giving up her godhood and splitting up in archfey Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, since Brian confirmed it quote:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836
He confirmed your speculation as to what he wrote, which was cut. It's not published, not included, so it's not official.
I know. That's what I meant (''the teaming up'' may not have happened even in the cut lore, but the ''archfey part'' has happened in the cut lore). Sorry for the bad wording.
quote:
You and Brian may think it solves certain problems, or you may like the "solution" but I don't. AT ALL. It makes no sense that a goddess who is almost the only "out" for non-evil drow would give up her power and the clerical power of all her worshipers only to "cleanse" a small portion of the drow. Eilistraee didn't just want to save the former Ilythiir, her purview was to end Lolth's power over all the drow. It's far better IMO to leave it unsaid rather than confirm that Eilistraee gave up on the rest of the drow. She's a good active goddess, not a neutral pragmatic goddess who thought, "well, I'll give up on everything just to cleanse a small few of the people I wanted to save. For hundreds and hundreds of years.
It's not good, IMO. It cheapens her.
quote:
However, Brian and Eric tried to fix and ending that was forced and choices (the --speculated, not even certain-- ''sacrifice'') that didn't make sense for the characters of Eilistraee and her brother (Would she abandon the vast majority of drow, give up her quest and her life only to force something unneeded -and likely unwanted- upon her people??). Gambling their divinity for that makes way more sense.
I strongly disagree. Gambling as Eilistraee doesn't make sense, nor does any of the speculation about redemption and sacrifice by mortals. If you accept the "fix" of them becoming archfey, then you have to accept all of that weird, nonsensical reasoning and pseudo-Jesus BS. If you leave it unsaid, the mortals' speculation can (and should be) considered wrong. At least until WotC or Ed can come up with something much, much better.
I know. If you read what I post, I totally agree with you. What happened in LP is totally out of character for Eilistraee and has nothing to do with the redemption she fights for and with who she is. She would never give up on the drow (especially not so randomly, in a out of the blue fashion), she has dedicated her whole existence to them. I've said it many times on these forums, Eilistraee was treated really, really badly with that ending, it comepletely missed what she is about (and turned the whole matter in -as you said- some pseudo-Jesus BS). But the ''archfey-lore'' is way better and makes way more sense than LP, because it would mean that Eilistraee hasn't abandoned the drow or her cause. Perhaps something forced her to gave up her divinity, and she tried to do her followers a favor while seeing herself in such a bad position. However as archfey, Eilistraee still fights for them -even if weakened- she's still there for them. That's why Brian/Eric's lore could work IMO.
And -as I said- Ed has stated that he has come up with new lore for Eilistraee post-Sundering and has recently written it down for WotC to use, I'm just patiently waiting for it to be released. That doesn't mean that Brian's stuff wouldn't be interesting though. I mean, we haven't even seen it, all we know is that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun end up without their godhood, because it powered the removal of the curse.
quote:
quote:
And quite honestly, this is way better than ''perhaps they're dead or perhaps they aren't, you don't know'', which is a very standard (and boring, IMO) answer that could be applied to any deity, that gives no info at all, and that doesn't offer concrete hook for E&V to be active in the current (canonical) FR.
It might be unknown, or even boring, but at least it isn't confirming something really dumb for Eilistraee. We will have to disagree, because I think confirming that she "sacrificed" for partial drow redemption and gave up everything in a gamble is terrible lore IMO.
Leaving ''uncertainty'' out there would be the worst choice to me and many other. I want to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back with what they stand for. They could say that how she survived is a mystery to mortals, but she needs to be there in the ''present'' FR.
Sacrificing everything would be stupid and totally out of character, using her divinity to accomplish soemthing, especially if she would have lost it anyway (which I hope is the case) wouldn't be that bad, because -as I said- Eilistraee would still be ''at the drow's side'' (as archfey, she could even be closer to them and fulfill more clesely the role of ''mothering'' the drow race that Ed gave her). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 22:33:57
I don't think it was a gamble. I think she knew what she was doing.
And having the "maybe she's dead, maybe she isn't" is pretty cheap, too. It basically says "wwll we don't want to deal with this right now, so we will leave it all to speculation." That's not only a cheap move, but it cheapens all the lore about Eilistraee, too. "Look at this goddezz who went through all this effort to show the drow a better way...and she died. Sorry drow". Lame.
I will say though that I would rather have them back as deities than as archfey. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 22:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ed has indeed written new lore about Eilistraee (and likely Vhaeraun) post Sundering, and she and her brother are very likely currently alive, given all that was said about them. What Brian would give us is unofficial lore anyway at this point (unless Ed chose to build upon it), so -barring NDAs- where's the harm in that?
Because, as I stated fairly clearly I think, it might conflict with lore they have planned.
quote:
E&V teaming up was a speculation, even though I'm sure about the Masked Lady giving up her godhood and splitting up in archfey Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, since Brian confirmed it quote:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836
He confirmed your speculation as to what he wrote, which was cut. It's not published, not included, so it's not official.
You and Brian may think it solves certain problems, or you may like the "solution" but I don't. AT ALL. It makes no sense that a goddess who is almost the only "out" for non-evil drow would give up her power and the clerical power of all her worshipers only to "cleanse" a small portion of the drow. Eilistraee didn't just want to save the former Ilythiir, her purview was to end Lolth's power over all the drow. It's far better IMO to leave it unsaid rather than confirm that Eilistraee gave up on the rest of the drow. She's a good active goddess, not a neutral pragmatic goddess who thought, "well, I'll give up on everything just to cleanse a small few of the people I wanted to save. I'll give up on all potential future clerics, all potential future worshipers, all potential chances to keep building a community of faith to stand against Lolth and offer new converts a choice against evil, possibly forever, so I can personally go into hiding as a non-deity, just so I can save a tiny few right now."
It's not good, IMO. It cheapens her entire existence.
quote:
However, Brian and Eric tried to fix and ending that was forced and choices (the --speculated, not even certain-- ''sacrifice'') that didn't make sense for the characters of Eilistraee and her brother (Would she abandon the vast majority of drow, give up her quest and her life only to force something unneeded -and likely unwanted- upon her people??). Gambling their divinity for that makes way more sense.
I strongly disagree. Gambling as Eilistraee doesn't make sense, nor does any of the speculation about redemption and sacrifice by mortals. If you accept the "fix" of them becoming archfey, then you have to accept all of that weird, nonsensical reasoning and pseudo-Jesus BS. If you leave it unsaid, the mortals' speculation can (and should be) considered wrong. At least until WotC or Ed can come up with something much, much better.
quote:
And quite honestly, this is way better than ''perhaps they're dead or perhaps they aren't, you don't know'', which is a very standard (and boring, IMO) answer that could be applied to any deity, that gives no info at all, and that doesn't offer concrete hook for E&V to be active in the current (canonical) FR.
It might be unknown, or even boring, but at least it isn't confirming something really dumb for Eilistraee. We will have to disagree, because I think confirming that she "sacrificed" for partial drow redemption and gave up everything in a gamble is terrible lore IMO.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 19:40:19
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
..., but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course.
No offense meant here, but personally I wish you wouldn't "reveal" anything left intentionally unpublished. They must have a reason for not including it, such as perhaps it not fitting in with planned future lore.
Ed has indeed written new lore about Eilistraee (and likely Vhaeraun) post Sundering, and she and her brother are very likely currently alive, given all that was said about them. What Brian would give us is unofficial lore anyway at this point (unless Ed chose to build upon it), so -barring NDAs- where's the harm in that?
quote:
And if it's the shaky idea that Eilistraee and her brother teamed up and then gave up their godhood in order to "cleanse" the Ilythiir demonic blood taint of Wendonai or something... not interested at all. Gods don't give up massive power to undo something a single Balor lord does, it makes no sense. I'd rather it just be "mortals thought they were dead, perhaps they were or perhaps not, you can't always fathom the divine."
E&V teaming up was a speculation, even though I'm sure about the Masked Lady giving up her godhood and splitting up in archfey Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, since Brian confirmed it quote:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836
(the second post by Brian on the first page).
Anyway, I'm more puzzled about why Eilistraee has to go out of her way to do something that -while good on its own- is not her goal, or Modus Operandi with her people, or what she means for ''redemption''. She wants the drow to understand and choose a different life, and the ''curse'' does not prevent them from making that choice, but simply from going to Arvandor (as we can see from the many Ilythiiri that choose non-evil lifestyles, and even become followers of the Dark Dancer). Not to mention that the the curse would be lifted only from her followers, making its removal completely pointless. Vhaeraun would care even less.
However, Brian and Eric tried to fix and ending that was forced and choices (the --speculated, not even certain-- ''sacrifice'') that didn't make sense for the characters of Eilistraee and her brother (Would she abandon the vast majority of drow, give up her quest and her life only to force something unneeded -and likely unwanted- upon her people??). Gambling their divinity for that makes way more sense.
And quite honestly, this is way better than ''perhaps they're dead or perhaps they aren't, you don't know'', which is a very standard (and boring, IMO) answer that could be applied to any deity, that gives no info at all, and that doesn't offer concrete hook for E&V to be active in the current (canonical) FR. As pointed out by others, new lore/events are developed only for deities who are officially alive and I'm glad that uncertainty is not what WotC has chosen for the two siblings, but concrete lore (even if perhaps little, it would at least give them their place back in the FR). |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 18:55:43
I'm going to have to disagree. I'm sure the majority of V and E fans would like to know their fate, rather thanit being a "perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't". |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 18:52:23
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
..., but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course.
No offense meant here, but personally I wish you wouldn't "reveal" anything left intentionally unpublished. They must have a reason for not including it, such as perhaps it not fitting in with planned future lore.
And if it's the shaky idea that Eilistraee and her brother teamed up and then gave up their godhood in order to "cleanse" the Ilythiir demonic blood taint of Wendonai or something... not interested at all. Gods don't give up massive power to undo something a single Balor lord does, it makes no sense. I'd rather it just be "mortals thought they were dead, perhaps they were or perhaps not, you can't always fathom the divine."
|
| JohnLynch |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 13:38:45
As someone who has no intent of ever playing in the 1480s era of the Forgotten Realms, I can appreciate wanting such and such deity to be alive. It's not necessarily because it's important that they be alive for canon. But if you ever want more lore on that deity though, you won't get it unless they're alive. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 13:12:43
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why does official canon matter? Just believe whatever you want for your own realms. That is how I think of it.
Because it's official, and to echo what Irennan said, it affects what is going on in the Realms. I can believe E is alive all I want, but if I read something in official canon, be it a novel or sourcebook, that says otherwise, I'm going to be disappointed. If official canon doesn't matter, then why have it at all, and why have sites like this one where we can discuss what is going on in the Realms? If lore didn't matter, there wouldn't be a fanbase or much point to having FR at all. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 10:08:31
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why does official canon matter? Just believe whatever you want for your own realms. That is how I think of it.
That's what most people actually do. However many FR and -in this case- Eilistraee/drow fans are also interested in the ''official'' answer, one thing does not preclude the other. Seeing Eilistraee come back (or find out that she was never actually gone), the dark elves take Rhymanthiin and so on would make many of said fans happy and would open up a lot of possibilities for further development and stories (not to mention that more lore can always be an inspiration for our own personal version -- and that the current ending of the story makes very little sense,having Eilistraee/Masked Lady basically throw away her goal for something that was unneeded and perhaps even unwanted by her followers, at least definitely not at the price of their goddess and cause). |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 08:48:16
Why does official canon matter? Just believe whatever you want for your own realms. That is how I think of it.
|
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 14 Feb 2015 : 06:13:49
Yes, this is one of the few things I'm still interested in as far as Realms-lore goes. I've sort of given up on most other lore for the most part, but I still would like some closure of sorts on this matter. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 09 Feb 2015 : 22:07:24
Releasing that information would be a good business move on WotC's part, since there are a lot of V and E fans out there... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 09 Feb 2015 : 22:02:33
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think a lot of fans are craving knowledge about the fate of E and V, and their followers, in 5e. I believe their spirits go to Arvandor, since Corellon "took over", at least temporarily, but I have heard nothing about what their followers are up to.
I think that it's just a matter ot time at this point, since -as THO said in another thread- '' I know Ed and others have been working to slip mentions of this or that deity into Realmslore, to reassure fans who ache to know the fate of, say, Eilistraee (just to name one).''
Ed himself has also said that he has written post-Sundering lore for the Dark Maiden, basically it's just up to WotC when/how to release it.
Eilistraee (and I guess Vhaeraun too) being alive is almost a given at this point (those mentions/lore wouldn't be much of a reassurance otherwise...), the ''how'' of it and what the twins are the doing now is what's left to be seen.
Nonetheless, I'm still very interested in seeing what was cut form Menzonberranzan: CoI, as I think that Brian's and Eric's fixing of the ending of the LP trilogy was neat.
|
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Feb 2015 : 22:01:16
The budget has been cut back much, also it appears rather then say something that will upset - the choice is yes an explanation and more lore will come in the future.
Yes I an cynical and somewhat bitter, though not only because of WotC. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 09 Feb 2015 : 21:49:20
I think a lot of fans are craving knowledge about the fate of E and V, and their followers, in 5e. I believe their spirits go to Arvandor, since Corellon "took over", at least temporarily, but I have heard nothing about what their followers are up to. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 19:47:15
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm still very much alive Wooly! :p
As for the specific text cut from Menzoberanzan: City of Intrigue, all of that content is now owned by WotC, even if they choose not to publish it.
I'm still busy finishing up the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game, but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course.
<puts on goggles of true seeing>
Nice try Brian. Simulacrums don't count. So, admit it, where is the REAL Brian? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 04:29:10
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm still very much alive Wooly! :p
As for the specific text cut from Menzoberanzan: City of Intrigue, all of that content is now owned by WotC, even if they choose not to publish it.
I'm still busy finishing up the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game, but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course.
Ed has also written on what happened to Eilistraee and her brother for the post Sundering FR. Do you by any chance know if he may have chosen to elaborate on your work? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 22:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm still very much alive Wooly! :p
As for the specific text cut from Menzoberanzan: City of Intrigue, all of that content is now owned by WotC, even if they choose not to publish it.
I'm still busy finishing up the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game, but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course.
Yay, Brian's alive! Now get cranking on Red Aegis!
I often find that when musing on the Realms, the term "in my Realms ..." covers a myriad of sins. I recommend the phrase to you.
-- George Krashos |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 21:40:03
I'm very glad to hear that, Mr. James. I've been starving for those stories. I hope it's closer to sooner than later. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 19:30:45
I'm still very much alive Wooly! :p
As for the specific text cut from Menzoberanzan: City of Intrigue, all of that content is now owned by WotC, even if they choose not to publish it.
I'm still busy finishing up the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game, but I promise, at some point in the future, I'll reveal the fate of the Masked Lady, the redeemed dark elves and their exodus to Rhymanthiin. None of this would be official, of course. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 02:55:58
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I always figured Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would be silent since the Masked Lady's "death". With the passing of the Sundering, perhaps they are once more whispering to potential worshippers. I wonder what happened to the Promenade in Skullport. Lolthite temple now maybe, or a ruin. The Spider Queen would have most likely answered their prayers and tried to sway them to her side.
I think that Eilistraee would at least keep being ''at the side'' of the turned drow after the Masked Lady's ''death''. She has already experienced a similar situation after the fall of Miyeritar, when her followers were truly few, so I think that she has experience in that regard.
The Promenade was attacked and left in ruin by Ghaunadans IIRC and iwould be very cool to see Eilistraeens/Vhaerunites trying to retake the Promenade.
As for Lolth, I doubt that she would be able to act as a deity that feels so deeply different from her like Eilistraee, as she simply can't love. Perhaps Vhaeraun, though. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 00:36:21
I always figured Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would be silent since the Masked Lady's "death". With the passing of the Sundering, perhaps they are once more whispering to potential worshippers. I wonder what happened to the Promenade in Skullport. Lolthite temple now maybe, or a ruin. The Spider Queen would have most likely answered their prayers and tried to sway them to her side. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 23:08:48
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Interesting. I like that explanation alot better too. Coolness on the new Ed lore, hopefully we'll see something about it in the future.
I'm really curious about how Eilistraee&Vhaeraun plan to rebuild their influence post-Sundering in such an hostile environment (where Lolth has now utter control) and if they plan to be allied, or at least cooperate for the moment. It'd be very cool if they did. That is assuming that they're back, but considering what Perkins said about Eilistraee and that Ed has already written lore on her, it is likely true.
Also I hope that Ed has info on what the changed drow are doing in Rymanthiin in the present Realms, or that maybe we'll get to see Brian's and Eric's writeup on that.
quote:
Eilistraee and her priestesses tied him down? Can I go next? Ok, I'll stop. hahaha
I suspect that they're more likely to do that to whoever left the lore on the cutting floor, probably with less pleasant intentions  |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 23:01:39
Eilistraee and her priestesses tied him down? Can I go next? Ok, I'll stop. hahaha |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 23:00:27
Interesting. I like that explanation alot better too. Coolness on the new Ed lore, hopefully we'll see something about it in the future. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 23:00:09
I seriously misread the subject line. I read it as "Fate of Eilistraee, Dark elves, and Brian James?"
And I'm thinking that discussing Brian's fate would be a little weird.  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:36:41
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
So Eilistraee didn't really kill Vhaeraun?
No, AFAIK, according to the lore left out of Menzoberranzan, it was a pact between them (and quite honestly, it's way more in character like this, than with Vhaeraun trying to sneak up and face Eilistraee in Arvandor, and his sister hacking him to pieces...)
I don't know what happened to that lore. Ed has said that he has written new lore on Eilistraee post-Sundering (https://disqus.com/home/discussion/edverse/hello_internet/?utm_source=reply&utm_medium=email&utm_content=read_more#comment-1746433518), perhaps he chose to elaborate on Brian James' and Eric Menge's work. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:34:31
So Eilistraee didn't really kill Vhaeraun? |
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