| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 18 Jan 2015 : 04:29:32
Forgotten Realms-
DR 1357
Basis: the Old Gray Box, selected material from early run of Dragon articles, and some material taken from later sources
Some noteworthy changes:
• Alustriel= Dissolved.
The queen was having a “private party with friends” in her royal baths, when someone transmuted the bathwater into strong acid. The murder case remains unsolved.
• Elminster= Asphyxiated.
Elminster needed his honey rolls in the worst way.
But when he got to the local bakery and saw the sweet young thing behind the counter, he forgot all about pastries.
This one was playing hard to get, thrusting at him with a baguette. He did his best dragon impression, taking playful nips at the hard loaf.
He swallowed a little too much bread, started choking.
The girl, perhaps overwhelmed by his amorous advances, fainted.
Elminster realized he didn’t know any spells to expel bread chunks.
Urk.
• Evermeet= Bad case of a yeast infection.
The elves thought they had found a paradise where they could be safe and happy away from all the riff-raff infesting Faerun.
They were wrong.
Moander never forgets. Moander repays.
The Yellow Rot spread with astonishing swiftness, bursting from puffballs hidden in temples and shrines of the Seldarine. Many of Evermeet’s clerics died first, followed by thousands of other elves.
Survivors who fled the island spread the plague to the mainland.
• Harpers= disbanded
Many members killed or on the run, bounties for capture or proof of death offered in Zhentil Keep, Amn, and Calimshan.
• Khelbun “Blackstaff” Arunsun= Monster mash smashed.
Killed by a coordinated attack by the Zhentarim and the Cult of the Dragon, which involved beholders and dracoliches. The strike also slew a number of other Harpers.
• Knights of Myth Drannor= TPK during dungeon crawl
These adventurers perished in the dungeon known as Whisper’s Crypt, in 1355 DR.
• The Simbul= Annihilated
Never the picture of sanity, the queen of Aglarond lost all control when she learned of the assassination of her sister, Alustriel, coming as it did less than two years after the deaths of Dove and Storm. She grew more and more unstable and paranoid, attacking all those she thought might be responsible, neglecting affairs of the realm, and even turning against her allies in her quest for revenge.
One of her former apprentices used a sphere of annihilation to destroy her.
• Yellow Rot (new):
The Yellow Rot affects half-elves and drow as it does surface elves; fatality resulting in seven of ten cases. The disease leaves elves who survive it scarred, sometimes also insane.
Humans experience the Yellow Rot as a rash; unsightly and painful but not fatal. It spreads by close contact.
The disease hit Waterdeep with the arrival of refugees from Evermeet.
Now, pity and disgust color public reaction towards elves in the Sword Coast and the North.
Half-orcs appear to be completely immune to this pestilence.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| froglegg |
Posted - 24 Jan 2015 : 20:12:43
That is a good idea Jeremy Grenemyer!
John |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 22 Jan 2015 : 07:12:09
Also, a safer way to have deities/avatars involved in an adventure... they're fighting their own battles, perhaps mostly offstage, and the PCs are around the edges as agents/infiltrators/negotiators/assassins. Rather than the PCs directly confronting gods -- "does a 27 hit Lathander's AC?" -- they're more like sappers, enabling the deities to be larger than life and the 4th wall to remain intact. Lots of intrigue, and opportunities for not realizing who they're actually helping.
I admit I'm just rambling off onto my own tangents. But I dig it too. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 22 Jan 2015 : 02:13:08
That's some pretty cool Moander stuff, dude.
I like it.
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| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 22 Jan 2015 : 00:53:12
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
--Any or all of these might be used in combination. Thoughts?
Regarding all of those--and Elminster in particular--I say that if your goal is to present at the outset to your players all these changes as part of selling your campaign (on the assumption they'll like/be satisfied by the de-powering) then go for it.
However, if all of this won't come up at the gaming table, I say either forget about all these high-powered NPCs or elect to keep them as aces up your sleeve to burn when you need an out, or when you need entertainment (Elminster slowly roasting on a spit while some hungry rot-infested elves that now serve Moander salivate nearby, for example).
I was thinking about Moander in general--I really like it as a deity--and this idea struck me: what if Moander went all in?
Suppose it divested itself of its divine home and emerged out of all the portals in Myth Drannor at once, overwhelming the elves, consuming their magic, the mythal, and the immense power guarded by the baelnorns and contained in the many crypts below the city.
So the yellow rot becomes divine: it's literally Moander's essence supercharged by magic beyond measure, slaying elves and any Chosen trying to keep the deity from doing so much damage to the Weave. This would explain how the rot spread so fast and was so effective.
This is also how the rot can ride spirits into the afterlife, because no active divinity was meant to linger on the Prime for long.
For PCs, the classic high level/epic adventure is to confront the big bad evil guy on its home plane. If Moander's not there, then when the PCs get through the rot-infested woods of Cormanthor, survive the dangers of Myth Drannor and its defenses all turned against them, and they walk through any of the city's portals--because they all lead to Moander's (now empty) home plane--they'll get far enough into it to discover he's not there right as it starts falling apart around them.
Without a divine anchor, Moander's home won't last forever. So a plan to slay a god becomes a plan to escape.
After that, the PCs can figure out how to get to Arvandor to deal with Moander while the gods literally battle all around them (fun backdrop, that; I know from experience running something like it) and maybe tip the balance one way or the other, which is what heroic characters are supposed to do. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 21 Jan 2015 : 04:33:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Have the best of both worlds and make Elminster a lich in disguise? Szass Tam gets away with the deception (at least in public) while front and center in a wolfpack of suspicious scheming ruthlessly amoral (and magically powerful) Red Wizards. Elminster could easily deceive a bunch of half-inbred uneducated simpletons who reside in the Dales. Perhaps other wizards of note - Khelben and the Seven and crusty old Vangerdahast - are also liches/undead in disguise, perhaps they aren't but (like the Reds vs Szassy) they aren't foolish enough to suicide themselves by openly calling Elminster out.
LICH-MINSTER.
Nice.
:) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 23:43:12
Have the best of both worlds and make Elminster a lich in disguise? Szass Tam gets away with the deception (at least in public) while front and center in a wolfpack of suspicious scheming ruthlessly amoral (and magically powerful) Red Wizards. Elminster could easily deceive a bunch of half-inbred uneducated simpletons who reside in the Dales. Perhaps other wizards of note - Khelben and the Seven and crusty old Vangerdahast - are also liches/undead in disguise, perhaps they aren't but (like the Reds vs Szassy) they aren't foolish enough to suicide themselves by openly calling Elminster out. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 04:19:01
Alternate possibilities:
1- Toning down the Seven Sisters without changing Gray Box canon:
Ignore all that later stuff about “The Seven Sisters” and base the family of “famous sisters” on what’s revealed in the Gray Box. If this source doesn’t assign something extraordinary that is revealed or invented in later publications, then make different assumptions. So, they aren’t Chosen of Mystra with lots of special powers, they aren’t quasi-immortal and they aren’t hundreds of years old.
Nor are they all claiming Mystra as patroness (at least one has Milill as her patron).
There’s no drow sister. There may not be a full seven of them.
2- Elminster the Godless, deceased in Yulash, recent event:
The Gray Box lists him as having no patron god. Fine, let’s roll with that. He had come to think of himself as not needing the patronage of one of the Powers. He doesn’t deny the existence of the gods, but he no longer pays them the worship and service that most people do. That overconfidence and impiety may have contributed to his demise in the ruins of Yulash.
Ignore all canon about him being the lover of Mystra, a Chosen, and all that stuff not detailed in the Gray Box.
His death sets up the “rob Elminster’s house—if you dare!” adventure possibility.
4. Write my own version of Alustriel
I don’t see a full NPC listing for her in the Gray box’s DM’s Guide to the Realms.
I could keep the tub full of acid, but say she survived the attempt on her life. This event could be tied to whatever chain of events (probably not well known to people outside elite circles) that led to the deaths of those three archmages.
5. Leave the Knights of Myth Drannor Alive
If I’m going to kill Elminster, Khelben, and The Simbul, maybe I’ll leave the Knights alive to carry on the good fight. They’ll have their hands full, and may be travelling a bit further from Shadowdale to deal with bad guys and evil plots.
6. Whisper’s return
Bring him back as a ghost or some sort of undead.
7. Kill Manshoon?
I haven’t got anything against him. He looks like a perfectly “good” evil overlord type. He’s also ten levels lower than Elminster, and thus likely not a personal match for any of the “big three” I’m whacking. But I don’t have any strong investment in him, either. If people are really concerned that killing Elmsinter, The Simbul, and Khelben stacks the deck too much in favor of the Zhentarim, I am down for the Harpers managing a counterstrike that takes out Manshoon. This would probably set off some kind of power struggle inside the Zhentarim, which would blunt their relative advantage until the new leadership had established firm control.
--Any or all of these might be used in combination. Thoughts?
EDIT
Really divergent (from Gray box) possibility-
Simply make Elminster a sage, as readers of the earliest FR-related articles in Dragon might have assumed based on the limited information they had about him. (I don't recall which article it is that Greenwood first drops heavy hints about him being very high level and very old; but I think's possibly the one with magical cloaks).
Sure, he likely knows some spells, but mainly he relies on knowledge, not magical might. He's not hundreds of years old. He's not the prince of a lost realm. He's not Mystra's lover. None of that stuff that was revealed or developed later.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure if it would work in play. Players might just be too attached to the official version, love it or hate it,to make the separation.
If you were a player, would you prefer:
Elminster was a hyper-powerful, ancient mage, who is now all kinds of dead.
Elminster is a mortal sage of modest magical power but considerable knowledge, who wants to be left alone but sometimes helps adventurers or asks them to do stuff for him.
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| combatmedic |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 03:09:03
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
It'd be interesting (to me, as a player) if Moander's Yellow Rot rode the souls of dead elves to Arvandor, so that it could begin its real purpose: rotting out the elven pantheon and leaving a real mess behind that Moander could occupy and so raise his power level by several orders of magnitude.
Ooooooohhhhhh...
Me likely.
:()
RE: some power balance and canon lore stuff people asked about upthread:
I'm drafting some alternate approaches to reducing some of the "mega" NPCs and related metaplot without killing quite so many people. I'd super dooper appreciate feedback on that. It's coming up very soon, as in the next few minutes.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:55:39
That is a pretty ambitious plan, Jeremy. I dig it. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:31:51
It'd be interesting (to me, as a player) if Moander's Yellow Rot rode the souls of dead elves to Arvandor, so that it could begin its real purpose: rotting out the elven pantheon and leaving a real mess behind that Moander could occupy and so raise his power level by several orders of magnitude. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:25:31
I am curious about the real motivation behind your Yellow Rot.
I'm not quite an elf-hater, but I certainly have no love for elves. Call me, perhaps, an elf-disliker. Elves in themselves are just another annoying creature I have no difficulty accepting, alongside leprechauns and kender and Manshoons. Elven dominance of the Realms, in a recurring thematic context, anyhow, is what bugs me. PCs overenthused with uninformed elf-love bugs me. Drow walking openly in the surface world bug me. But I realize my bias for what it is and wouldn't impose it upon my entire world, wouldn't impose it upon my players (unless we could all unreservedly assent to the notion). Like it or not, elves are deeply embedded within the Realms, and removing them by any means (surgical, genocidal, or apocalyptic) will echo subtle and profound effects on the Realms as a whole.
The Dark Sun comparison might be alluding to the complete extinction of a once-powerful race which had mastery of the world. And even there, while they as a people are long gone and half forgotten, they continue to shape the peoples and the world on which they once dwelled. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 20 Jan 2015 : 02:19:15
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Have you thought about what the Yellow Rot will do to the drow of the Underdark?
Not specifically how it will effect the drow race (you addressed that) but to what extent the rot has found a foothold in the lands below?
I like the idea of the puffballs spreading into the Underdark.
And, to address concerns up-thread that I'm just pounding on the good guys, let me tell you I certainly don't mind slapping some the drow cities and bases with something nasty. ;)
What might be interesting is myconids weaponizing the new species for use against the drow. They don't need to worship Moander.
It's just the pragmatic Lawful Netrual 'shroom man approach to de-dark-elf-ication of cavern space. Sort of like humans in our world using fungicides.
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| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 23:41:20
Have you thought about what the Yellow Rot will do to the drow of the Underdark?
Not specifically how it will effect the drow race (you addressed that) but to what extent the rot has found a foothold in the lands below? |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 20:08:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
EDIT- I think you might be a bit confused by one of my posts. That's no doubt my fault; I may not have provided enough context.
I wasn't writing that I killed Khelben in order to open a slot for a Masked Lord.
Nope.
That particular comment in my second post was a note about possible in-game ramifications of his demise.
I apologize if I was unclear about any of this earlier.
And thanks for the canon-lore checks.
Ah, okay. That makes more sense, then.
Not my cup of tea, these changes, but not my game, either. 
And the colors went wonky in your post because the forum code has issues with multiple nested quotes.
Kewl beans.
I just didn't want you to think I was ''shouting."
:)
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 15:23:27
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
EDIT- I think you might be a bit confused by one of my posts. That's no doubt my fault; I may not have provided enough context.
I wasn't writing that I killed Khelben in order to open a slot for a Masked Lord.
Nope.
That particular comment in my second post was a note about possible in-game ramifications of his demise.
I apologize if I was unclear about any of this earlier.
And thanks for the canon-lore checks.
Ah, okay. That makes more sense, then.
Not my cup of tea, these changes, but not my game, either.
And the colors went wonky in your post because the forum code has issues with multiple nested quotes. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 09:39:14
VERSION TWO
Here's a more compact version, with a tighter geographic focus:
Forgotten Realms-
DR 1357
Basis: the Old Gray Box, selected material from early run of Dragon articles, and some material taken from later sources
Some noteworthy changes:
• Elminster= deceased
According to his terrified scribe, the sage perished (INSERT RECENT DATE) in the ruins of Yulash, the victim of a “rotting monster, like a hill that walked”
Shadowdale locals avoid his abandoned home. At least five parties of robbers have died or vanished trying to break into the tower.
• Elven Court lands= Bad case of a yeast infection.
Moander never forgets. Moander repays.
The Yellow Rot spread with astonishing swiftness, bursting from puffballs hidden in temples and shrines of the Seldarine. Many elf clerics died first, and their loss hampered efforts to stop the pestilence. Infected refugees spread the plague to nearby lands.
• Knights of Myth Drannor= TPK during dungeon crawl
These adventurers perished in the dungeon known as Whisper’s Crypt, in 1355 DR.
• Yellow Rot (new):
Appeared first in 13XX (date TBD) DR.
The Yellow Rot affects half-elves and drow as it does surface elves; fatality resulting in seven of ten cases. The disease leaves elves who survive it scarred, sometimes also insane.
Humans experience the Yellow Rot as a rash; unsightly and painful but not fatal. It spreads by close contact.
Now, pity and disgust color public reaction towards elves in the nearby human lands.
Half-orcs appear to be completely immune to this pestilence.
'reserve' areas to be developed further in game:
Desertsedge Mountains (outside Dales)
possibly some notes on Sembia
Other possible changes:
Khelben Arunsun and the Simbul dead.
Maybe Alustriel.
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| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:53:13
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Your use of Moander reminds me that I ought to include something Moander-ish in my Current Clack scroll.
Moander approves.
I jokingly offed Elminster with bread.
That makes me think of bread mold.
Maybe the absurd death, while funny, isn't as useful as a grisly fate in the mouth of Moander?
I might go with this if I shift the Yellow Rot to the Dales/Cormanthyr region, instead of Evermeet.
It ties together rather nicely.
EDIT:
Hmmm, I note that Desertsedge Mountains (I think this is the same thing as the Desertmouth Mountains, yeah?) outside the Dales is one of the regions set aside for home game development, like Sembia.
.
I rather like the idea of using one of those regions.
I know from later published stuff that it's near some sites associated with Moander. I might cherry pick a few suitable bits from such later sources.
It's also near Anauroch, the Dales, and Cormyr, which looks pretty good to me.
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| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:39:06
Your use of Moander reminds me that I ought to include something Moander-ish in my Current Clack scroll. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:20:41
I'm not sure why the font came out that way. Anyhow, you get the idea now.
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| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:18:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Khelbun's death opens up a spot for another Masked Lord in Waterdeep.
Why is this necessary? Khelben himself gave up his Lordship, eventually, and even if he hadn't, we have never been given a complete roster of Lords -- some slots have always been left open for DMs to fill with their own Lords. This fact was part of the basis of my own Lords of Waterdeep project.
Additionally, despite his involvement with the Harpers, Khelben is neutrally-aligned. He generally acts for the betterment of all, but he's not above working with bad guys to achieve his ends -- like when he stole an artifact from the Harpers to give to Fzoul Chembryl.
Sounds cool-- for your campaign.
That's all canon material... But either way, my point remains: it's not necessary to remove Khelben to open up a Lordship, because there were already slots left open for DMs to fill.
It's not all canon in my game because it's not all laid out in the Gray Box. And, as you'll note, I've made some changes even to the OGB material.
EDIT- I think you might be a bit confused by one of my posts. That's no doubt my fault; I may not have provided enough context.
I wasn't writing that I killed Khelben in order to open a slot for a Masked Lord.
Nope.
That particular comment in my second post was a note about possible in-game ramifications of his demise.
I apologize if I was unclear about any of this earlier.
And thanks for the canon-lore checks.
I'm using a smaller subset of canon, and playing fast and loose with it in some way, but I still appreciate any input you have to give.
Thanks.
|
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:11:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Szass Tam isn't mentioned in the Gray Box, is he?
Not sure why it matters... But yes, he is mentioned in there.
It matters because I've noted that Gray Box is my primary source, and I've noted that only selected pieces of later books will be used. If he's not listed in the OGB with a level or stats, then I don't have him in a book.
(Apart from most of the OGB, a couple of modules, and some 2E gods books, all my FR stuff is Paizo PDFs on disk. Those are, sadly, not accessible right now. But I'm deliberately not using everything published in later books, anyway.)
I do recall liking Dreams of Red Wizards, though, so if I can recover my PDF from this disc I might use some of it(problem seems to be the reader, actually, so I have hopes...). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Khelbun's death opens up a spot for another Masked Lord in Waterdeep.
Why is this necessary? Khelben himself gave up his Lordship, eventually, and even if he hadn't, we have never been given a complete roster of Lords -- some slots have always been left open for DMs to fill with their own Lords. This fact was part of the basis of my own Lords of Waterdeep project.
Additionally, despite his involvement with the Harpers, Khelben is neutrally-aligned. He generally acts for the betterment of all, but he's not above working with bad guys to achieve his ends -- like when he stole an artifact from the Harpers to give to Fzoul Chembryl.
Sounds cool-- for your campaign.
That's all canon material... But either way, my point remains: it's not necessary to remove Khelben to open up a Lordship, because there were already slots left open for DMs to fill. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 06:00:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Khelbun's death opens up a spot for another Masked Lord in Waterdeep.
Why is this necessary? Khelben himself gave up his Lordship, eventually, and even if he hadn't, we have never been given a complete roster of Lords -- some slots have always been left open for DMs to fill with their own Lords. This fact was part of the basis of my own Lords of Waterdeep project.
Additionally, despite his involvement with the Harpers, Khelben is neutrally-aligned. He generally acts for the betterment of all, but he's not above working with bad guys to achieve his ends -- like when he stole an artifact from the Harpers to give to Fzoul Chembryl.
Sounds cool-- for your campaign.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 05:26:10
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Szass Tam isn't mentioned in the Gray Box, is he?
Not sure why it matters... But yes, he is mentioned in there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 05:18:52
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Khelbun's death opens up a spot for another Masked Lord in Waterdeep.
Why is this necessary? Khelben himself gave up his Lordship, eventually, and even if he hadn't, we have never been given a complete roster of Lords -- some slots have always been left open for DMs to fill with their own Lords. This fact was part of the basis of my own Lords of Waterdeep project.
Additionally, despite his involvement with the Harpers, Khelben is neutrally-aligned. He generally acts for the betterment of all, but he's not above working with bad guys to achieve his ends -- like when he stole an artifact from the Harpers to give to Fzoul Chembryl. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 02:56:27
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
Alright combatmedic!
Now that's what Mr. Greenwood ment by making the Realms your own.
John
It is, indeed! :)
The Gray Box maps are even designed to be customized.
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| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 02:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Compare your decisions with the balance presented in the "Current Events" section of the Ol' Grey Box with various competing interests, shades of grey, external forces like the Flight of Dragons impacting on everyone, etc. With your eliminations, there is nothing to stop the Zhents from steamrolling the Dales - unless of course that is exactly what you want to happen. Have a fun campaign.
-- George Krashos
Or unless, you know:
Several Dales unite to defeat the Zhents
Cormyr intervenes to keep them out
Sembia intervenes to keep them out
The PCs do the kind of heroic stuff that the fallen Knights of Myth Drannor once did, to keep them out
some combination of the above
---
I'm sure it will be a fun campaign, yes.
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| froglegg |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 02:23:56
Alright combatmedic!
Now that's what Mr. Greenwood ment by making the Realms your own.
John |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 01:40:09
Compare your decisions with the balance presented in the "Current Events" section of the Ol' Grey Box with various competing interests, shades of grey, external forces like the Flight of Dragons impacting on everyone, etc. With your eliminations, there is nothing to stop the Zhents from steamrolling the Dales - unless of course that is exactly what you want to happen. Have a fun campaign.
-- George Krashos |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 01:37:35
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Okay, why?
-- George Krashos
Why, what?
I'd love to answer, but I need a more specific question.
Why have you got 'bad things' happening to all the 'goodies' in the Realms? What about the 'baddies'?
-- George Krashos
Got any bad guys over 20th level?
:)
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