| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MeddlerSage |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 21:22:36
Finally I've recieved the book. I'm having a struggle with the wizard section. On page 114, below the Preparing and Casting Spells, there is a sentence that confuses me "Casting the spell doesn't remove it from your list of prepared spells". So what, can I study the magic missile spell and use it more than once?
What does it mean?
I hope I'm not doing anything wrong by sharing that sentence from the book. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 05:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Going back to the 3rd level wizard example, does that mean he can only "prepare" four, different 1st level spells and two different 2nd level spells?
-- George Krashos
Well there's a difference between spell slots and spells prepared. A wizard can prepare a number of spells per day equal to their Wizard level + their Intelligence modifier. At 3rd level, a wizard with Intelligence 15 (+2) can prepare 5 spells of 1st or 2nd level. They have 4 castings of 1st level spells and 2 castings of 2nd level spells. So say I have three 1st level spells known and four 2nd level spells known, I can prep a 1st level magic missile and say, grease and cast them both 4 times with 1st level slots. I then prep three 2nd level spells, to which I can cast twice. If, during an adventure, I need a stronger magic missile but I'm out of 1st level spells, I simply use a 2nd level slot |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 01:05:43
Going back to the 3rd level wizard example, does that mean he can only "prepare" four, different 1st level spells and two different 2nd level spells?
-- George Krashos |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 22:04:21
Maybe it's just me then but as I've DMed high-level games with optimizing players I've never had an issue with handling it. I just play the opponents intelligently and remember what the players can do so can their enemies. And I actually run Gestalt games on top of everything else.
Plus I cheat like a bandit. 
If I want a fight to be challenging then it IS challenging. If it's meant to just stall the PCs then it stalls them. DMs just have to be prepared is all.
But, having said all of that, I do want to scale back the power creep a bit. 3e really did go too far.
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To respond more directly:
First bullet: I just disagree here. Unless you're allowing stats in the 30+ range you really shouldn't have too much trouble here. Most of the spells gained are at the lower levels. This allows wizards at the beginning of their careers to have more 'staying power' but, later on, the lower level spells have far less significance.
Second Bullet: Agreed. There was too much magic, in the form of items, allowed in 3e. This really eliminated the mystery of magic and (for us Realms lovers) The Weave. However, if the wealth-by-level is followed then this shouldn't have been too much to handle from a balance standpoint. Not to mention that many items were nerfed in 3e compared to their 2e counterparts.
Third Bullet: Agreed. DMs should be doing this regardless of the edition their running. My only caveat is that, in the end, each wizard still only gets a set amount of spells/day.
Fourth Bullet: This one I actually dislike tremendously. It goes against previous editions AND previous lore regarding what's possible in the Realms. I'm not saying it's wrong to place this limitation from a balance stand point though. This is the grognard in me rearing its ugly head again. 
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quote:
While it's debatable that the number of spells per day weren't a problem with v3.5, there were several contributing factors (in my opinion) that led to this belief.
The thing is to force the spellcaster to use their slots up before hitting them with the most challenging fight. OR to throw such a credible challenge at them that they struggle to outlast the opponent. I've never had too much issue with this.
quote:
From my experiences with 3E, v3.5, and Pathfinder the majority of feats are rather "meh" most of the time but it's not terrible if the group isn't really optimizing. There are some feats that are near-mandatory for certain character-types and there are also some real duds that NO ONE should use.
True some of them are meh (many are actually). Optimizing is the 'problem' but again I've not had too much issue dealing with that. The real issue was allowing so many options outside of the feats that, when combined with the right selections, made spellcasters too much of a powerhouse. But even then I just adjusted things as a DM.
Trust me, there's always a way around the optimizers.
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What bothers me most about the multiclassing limitation on spellcasting it remains despite the source of power being different. I think a cleric/mage should have the benefit of two spellcasting tables rather than stacking them. A sorcerer/wizard maybe not (one can argue the source is identical).
But then I prefer 2e multiclassing to 3e (I don't care for stacking character levels) but without the limitations arbitrarily used in 2e.
Different strokes though. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 05:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
It's the grognard in me is all. Every iteration of the game (though I don't really know about 4e as I never played it) has had numerous spell slots at each level. So drastically reducing that is disheartening to me. I do agree that 3e went a bit too far in the power mechanics but that was due more to the feat system than the number of spell slots.
From my experiences with 3E, v3.5, and Pathfinder the majority of feats are rather "meh" most of the time but it's not terrible if the group isn't really optimizing. There are some feats that are near-mandatory for certain character-types and there are also some real duds that NO ONE should use.
While it's debatable that the number of spells per day weren't a problem with v3.5, there were several contributing factors (in my opinion) that led to this belief. IF I were to do a high-leveled v3.5 game again (though I shudder at the thought) I would make some drastic changes to the spellcasting system. For starters:
- Removal of bonus spells acquired from a high Ability modifier. This really is a major reason for the number of spells a wizard gets per day, giving him a FAR higher number of spells than I think the designers had originally intended.
- Removal or heavily reducing the number of wands and staffs in the world, either acquired or crafted. Something that v3.5 supplements LOVED to do was throw dozens of these things into nearly every adventure. This became a pretty significant issue in later levels where the spellcasters weren't even touching their spells/day and just going straight from wands for nearly every single encounter. Not only that but it greatly increased their overall versatility compared to non-spellcasting classes.
- Strictly oversee what spells are allowed to be gained as Arcane spellcasters level up, and restrict what spells can be obtained in the game world as they adventure. There are a LOT of spells in v3.5 that are just straight up broken (many of which are found in the PHB) and should be handled carefully.
- Concentration mechanic. Something I felt D&D:Next got right was limiting how many spells a wizard can actively have going on all at once. In v3.5 it wasn't uncommon at later levels to have 3-5 spell effects in place even before the characters had rolled Initiative. This "Powering Up" is what a lot of people felt reduced the significance of non-spellcasters in later stages of the game.
In any case, that's what I'd do to keep things on a more sane level. D&D:Next has done a remarkable job of both keeping wizard's spells potent and encounter-changing without constantly being used as "I win" buttons.
Also, 4E pretty much did away with spell slots. Wizards get 2 at-will powers and a certain set of encounter, daily, and Utility (which often is either encounter or daily in nature). Towards the late paragon tier of the game characters top out at 2 at-wills, 4 encounter, 4 daily, 4 utility in addition to paragon path features and powers. As you gain higher levels, you replace lower level powers with higher ones.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The other thing that bothers me is (if I read it correctly) that multiclassing in multiple spellcasting classes just opens up a wider range of spells NOT more slots. You still use the same number of slots despite having multiple classes.
I haven't purchased the PHB yet but that sounds about right to me. YOu get more versatility with what you can cast however your not instantly getting an overall boost in power. However your level is taken into account for both classes, unlike in v3.5 where a Wizard 5/Cleric 1 is only casting cleric spells at 1st level (where in D&D:Next he's casting them at 3rd or 4th I believe). And of course your cantrips scale with character level so once you obtain some cleric orisons, they're going to be just as powerful at 1st level Cleric for you as they are for a 18th level cleric (which I think is great). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 00:56:03
It's the grognard in me is all. Every iteration of the game (though I don't really know about 4e as I never played it) has had numerous spell slots at each level. So drastically reducing that is disheartening to me. I do agree that 3e went a bit too far in the power mechanics but that was due more to the feat system than the number of spell slots.
The other thing that bothers me is (if I read it correctly) that multiclassing in multiple spellcasting classes just opens up a wider range of spells NOT more slots. You still use the same number of slots despite having multiple classes. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 13 Dec 2014 : 16:01:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
What I don't like are the far fewer high-level spell slots one gains as they level up compared with earlier editions of the game.
In play, casters don't really suffer do to this change. Each Caster gets a few more class abilities than they did in previous editions and the scaling cantrips allow you to always have an effective offensive option. I tend to think that the flavor added by the new class features which work toward a theme like dragon sorcerer or necromancer make the overall play experience better level 1 through 20. Casters no longer feel helpless at low levels and super powerful at high levels. Instead, they are capable throughout and still very versatile at high levels. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Dec 2014 : 02:19:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
This is one aspect of 5e that I like. What I don't like are the far fewer high-level spell slots one gains as they level up compared with earlier editions of the game.
I think that's working as intended to be honest. Sort of why we don't see high level wizards with 20 to 30 spells/day or that spells instantly go up in power due to caster level. A daily resource should, IMO, be somewhat special in conjunction with the overall feel of the setting/world. I felt that too much power was given to spellcasters in v3.5 to the point where you were 'doing it wrong' if you weren't playing one.
of course, YMMV |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 12 Dec 2014 : 21:14:44
This is one aspect of 5e that I like. What I don't like are the far fewer high-level spell slots one gains as they level up compared with earlier editions of the game. |
| MeddlerSage |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 15:38:46
Finally, thank you all of you. My problem was solved! |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 14:54:29
Your spells prepared are the options you can choose to cast from. Your spell slots are the fuel to power those options. So long as you have more fuel you can active any of your options(prepared spells). All of your options remain prepared even if you run out of fuel. You just can't choose to active them.
So, if the lv 3 wizard above used all of his slots, he will have 0 slots. However, he will still have 6 prepared spells. If the DM says that a strange magical effect in a room grants him a lvl 2 spells slot. He could choose to use it to fuel any of the prepared spells.
As a side note, cantrips are completely separate and can be cast as often as you want. They don't require slots. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 14:23:39
You prepare the spell once. You can cast as many times as your slots allow.
You only need to to re-study your spells when you want to change the ones available. |
| MeddlerSage |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 12:37:49
Hmm. Lets take that wizard for instance ( 3lvl wizard with int 16). I can prepare 6 spells per day. If I want to cast 3 magic missiles, should I prepare it three times or only one time is enough? |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 01:38:35
Preparing spells in 5e is basically just saying which spells you're going to want access to before your next long rest. Once a spell is prepared you can keep using it until you run out of available slots of that spell level. (6 times for 1st level spells, or 2 times for 2nd level spells, using the 3rd level wizard example above.
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| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 01:27:13
quote:
Originally posted by MeddlerSage
So what, can I study the magic missile spell and use it more than once?
I'm not with Wizards of the Coast, but here's how I read it: Yes.
Using the example from the paragraph you're citing: Say you're a 3rd level wizard, with an Int of 16.
1. You have four 1st level and two 2nd level spell slots. Once you've used these, you can still cast cantrips but you'll need to finish a long rest before you can cast more 1st/2nd level spells.
2. You can prepare up to 6 spells per day. (Cantrips don't need to be prepared.) You can prepare fewer spells if you want to, but not more than 6 spells. Those 6 spells can be all 1st level, all 2nd level, or any mix.
3. You can only cast spells you have prepared. If you need invisibility but you didn't prepare it, you're out of luck, at least until you finish a long rest.
4. You may cast prepared 1st level spells as either 1st level or 2nd level spells, but remember that you only have two 2nd level spell slots. If you use those 2nd level spell slots on making 1st level spells more powerful, you'll forfeit the use of your 2nd level spells until after you finish a long rest. ("You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest," from an earlier paragraph on the same page of the PH.
5. If you prepare magic missile and for whatever reason decide to cast nothing but magic missiles that day, you can cast 4 of them at 1st level and 2 at 2nd level. Because of what you quoted... casting does not remove it from your prepared spell list.
Edit: and like Markus said, you only need to spend time preparing spells when you change your list. But you'll need to finish a long rest to regain use of expended/cast spell slots, regardless of whether you're changing your prepared spell list.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 00:17:01
quote:
Originally posted by MeddlerSage
I hope I'm not doing anything wrong by sharing that sentence from the book.
So long as the passage you quote isn't too long, and is properly cited, you are good.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Nov 2014 : 22:08:31
I think only cantrips can be used over and over again.
However, I think you only need 're-memorize' spells when you are swapping-spells out of your 'spells prepared' list.
Not sure if thats how it is meant, but thats how I've been playing it. You don't need to study your spells if you are keeping them the same the next day. Cantrips, as I've said, are always re-castable.
The D&D Next group on Facebook would be much better at answering your questions then I am (thats MY go-to place). |
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