| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 01:17:18
Hello scribes,
In the Year of Thunder (1306 DR), Moradin blessed his people with what we know of as the Thunder Blessing. According to the 3E FRCG, "the birthrate among dwarves has soared until it is now fully half as high as that of a young and vigorous human land."
Now the question I have, is how many children does this equate to for an average dwarven family? I had always assumed that most couples, prior to the blessing had anywhere between 1-2 beardlings if they were able. Being as vigorous as a human land makes me think we're talking families of half a dozen are frequent?
So if we have a dwarven hold of 2,500, what would you think the population would grow (if present day were 1479 DR) to since the Thunder Blessing?
Curious as to what other people's thoughts are on this. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 23 Nov 2014 : 14:50:43
I've always assumed males outnumber females 3 to 1, which I believe is what is listed in Complete Book of Dwarves. While this isn't Realms specific, it's one of my favorite resources.
I'll have to take another read of Dwarves Deep, but on page 6 we see this: "About 70% of all births are males. Only about 55% of dwarves, of either sex, are fertile."
Quite possible that these numbers have shifted with the Thunder Blessing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Nov 2014 : 13:37:13
just another thought, it could have included a higher ratio of females to males being born. It seems to me that POSSIBLY there are normally more males born than females, as you don't hear or see from the female dwarves much (now they may be working in the background mind you, but perhaps the dwarven reckless behavior of males comes from a cultural understanding that they are more acceptable losses than losing a female). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Nov 2014 : 03:25:38
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I'm not entirely sure, but I think the Thunder Blessing didn't increase the number of dwarf pregnancies, but rather just increased the likelyhood of twins. Or at least that's what I got the The Gilded Rune novel.
The wording is vague as to what the effects were. This likely might be by design to avoid details of how the Blessing worked, we are told end results was an increase of the race faster then what was occurring before.
It could be twins more common, it clearly could be a greater percentage of females were having even one child.
Wooly mentioned an average of 2.5 children for Earth humans. This however is basically an average for more developed countries and more so of city dwellers. here still are many families that have 5 or more children, just in the US many couples have no children. In rural areas, USA farms, many parts of Africa and India the birth rate is higher. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2054rank.html offers a birth rate per 1,000 people. Now some of birth rate difference could be because of longevity of life, however even that should not account for some nations having a much higher birth rate then others. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2014 : 02:46:50
I'm not entirely sure, but I think the Thunder Blessing didn't increase the number of dwarf pregnancies, but rather just increased the likelyhood of twins. Or at least that's what I got the The Gilded Rune novel. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2014 : 00:17:01
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Regarding certain dwarven kings of old having multiple children, how much do we know of the moral values of some of those kingdoms? For instance, are all of those old dwarven kingdoms monogamous? Might it be that some might believe that a wealthy dwarf might be allowed more than one wife? I could definitely see this viewpoint amongst some dwarven kingdoms following Abbathor, god of greed. Similarly, the duergar worshipping Laduguer may also allow their king to either have more than one wife, or even a wife and multiple consorts. Hell, even Sharindlar might condone a king having multiple partners in the form of a threesome.
Or if could have just been one of those unusually fertile couples, like ones in the real world with substantially more than the standard 2.5 kids. I had a friend whose parents were told they would not be able to have kids, so they adopted a little girl... and then proved their doctor wrong, six times over. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2014 : 00:08:38
Regarding certain dwarven kings of old having multiple children, how much do we know of the moral values of some of those kingdoms? For instance, are all of those old dwarven kingdoms monogamous? Might it be that some might believe that a wealthy dwarf might be allowed more than one wife? I could definitely see this viewpoint amongst some dwarven kingdoms following Abbathor, god of greed. Similarly, the duergar worshipping Laduguer may also allow their king to either have more than one wife, or even a wife and multiple consorts. Hell, even Sharindlar might condone a king having multiple partners in the form of a threesome. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 21 Nov 2014 : 13:47:13
I'm curious if Ed or THO could weigh in with their thoughts.
I just find this subject a bit interesting, and it raises questions for me because if we look at Dwarves Deep, page 53 under Besilmer we see that King Daurvos had lost his sons fighting orcs. The plural means at least two and this was before the Thunder Blessing. We do have the eight sons of Taark Shanat founding Deep Shanatar, but that might have been divine influence or way back in the "good old days" when dwarves were a power and maybe children were more plentiful.
The Gold Dwarves had so many beardlings they eventually sent an army to reconquer parts of Deep Shanatar. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Nov 2014 : 04:04:23
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Hello scribes,
In the Year of Thunder (1306 DR), Moradin blessed his people with what we know of as the Thunder Blessing. According to the 3E FRCG, "the birthrate among dwarves has soared until it is now fully half as high as that of a young and vigorous human land."
Now the question I have, is how many children does this equate to for an average dwarven family? I had always assumed that most couples, prior to the blessing had anywhere between 1-2 beardlings if they were able. Being as vigorous as a human land makes me think we're talking families of half a dozen are frequent?
So if we have a dwarven hold of 2,500, what would you think the population would grow (if present day were 1479 DR) to since the Thunder Blessing?
Curious as to what other people's thoughts are on this.
"a young and vigorous human land." likely indicates humans having between 6 to 12 children, so half of that should be between 3 to 6 per family.
Of course only my best guess. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 23:36:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
probably wouldn't fit the age, but were Ivan and Pikel twins or just brothers?
According to the novel Canticle, in the year 1361 DR, Ivan had lived in tight tunnels beneath the Galena Mountains for a century, Cadderly had known the Bouldershoulder brothers for more than a decade, and Pikel was the older brother by several years.
So perhaps Ivan was born ~1250 DR, and Pikel ~1240 DR? |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 17:04:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
probably wouldn't fit the age, but were Ivan and Pikel twins or just brothers?
They were too old to have been thunder twins if that's what you're wondering. As for the age difference between them, I couldn't say off the top of my head. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 13:55:51
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I had thought for a while that the Thunder Blessing was characterised by more twins.
-- George Krashos
I pictured 'dwarves in a rut' sounding something akin to a thunder storm. 
Basically, it amounts to the dwarven pantheon inventing Viagra.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 12:48:33
probably wouldn't fit the age, but were Ivan and Pikel twins or just brothers? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 06:54:17
I had thought for a while that the Thunder Blessing was characterised by more twins.
-- George Krashos |
| BEAST |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 05:28:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It could be that old traditions die hard.
Absolutely, especially with dwarves.
Still, I remain curious as to how the event transpired, and how word of it spread to various dwarf communities.
(Of course the real reason is that the event was not created IRL until after that book had been published, but reality-shmeality!)
On a side note, I suppose that "birth rate" can be measured in different ways. It could measured as children/year (time-based), or merely as children/pair of parents (child-to-parent ratio-based).
Dwarven parents might've seen some sort of significant growth in the number of children that survived, but given their longer lifespans, that doesn't necessarily mean that dwarves would've seen all of those viable children plop out at once. It might still take many decades between successful childbirths. Six children for a human couple might take six years, or even as little as 54 months/4.5 years, if the parents were really hot to trot. But that same number of offspring could theoretically take sixty years or more for a fertile dwarven couple.
I don't have a canonical answer for you, though, Eilserus. Somehow, though I don't see dwarves exactly fitting with the cliché of 2.5 children any more than I see them with white picket fences, a dog, and a cat!
quote:
"Our...fort
Is a very, very, very fine fort (fine fort!)
With warpigs in the yard
A dwarf's life can be so hard
But every day's made easy by Berronar..."
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 04:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I'm also curious whether the Thunder Blessing manifested itself universally and simultaneously across the Realms, or if it had a "Ground Zero" somewhere (maybe a traditional dwarven holy place) and then gradually worked itself out from there.
I say this because the dwarves of Clan Battlehammer in Icewind Dale, ca. 1350-1355 DR (The Crystal Shard), don't seem to have let their females out much, which leads me to believe that they were still enforcing highly restrictive gender roles way up north, there.
It could be that old traditions die hard. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 19 Nov 2014 : 03:18:18
I'm also curious whether the Thunder Blessing manifested itself universally and simultaneously across the Realms, or if it had a "Ground Zero" somewhere (maybe a traditional dwarven holy place) and then gradually worked itself out from there.
I say this because the dwarves of Clan Battlehammer in Icewind Dale, ca. 1350-1355 DR (The Crystal Shard), don't seem to have let their females out much, which leads me to believe that they were still enforcing highly restrictive gender roles way up north, there. |
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