| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 15:39:15
I was just thinking... Are there any known portals to Sigil in Faerūn? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Oct 2014 : 00:31:22
Also broken in PST by the ghost of Deionarra. She was first anchored to her physical remains in the Dustman Crematorium (in Sigil). She later appeared in the Fortress of Regrets (a unique demiplane, distinct Inner Plane location, or Negative Material Plane realm). No use of any portal nor any other explanation was offered, her ghostly presence was simply handwaved off to propel the storyline. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 22:24:23
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps they remain as ghosts...
I believe that the souls of those killed in Sigil normally exit whenever portals opened to the plane that their souls would have normally migrated to had they died anywhere else.
As far as ghosts go, IIRC technically in 2e you couldn't normally have a ghost on the Outer Planes since it required a co-terminus Ethereal plane, which the Outer planes didn't have. This of course was the normal rule but was gleefully broken by the baernaloth Daru ib Shamiq in the gatetown of Torch (as described in the module 'Squaring the Circle') who created a ghost yugoloth. The module mentioned this shouldn't have been possible, and in-character the baernaloth had some measure of smirking pride about that if asked about it. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 18:21:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That would be a different story, then... Though it still begs the question of where those souls are going, then.
Perhaps they remain as ghosts... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 18:00:28
That would be a different story, then... Though it still begs the question of where those souls are going, then. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 16:34:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I guess its safe to say that people who die in Sigil will end up travelling towards their place of eternal afterlife just the same as if they died in any other place. Even if slain by the Lady - perhaps she can make special efforts and punitive examples out of particularly troublesome victims, condemn their soul to some infinite maze or absorb it into Sigil itself or simply smash it into oblivion, but that hardly seems her style.
Assuming no special circumstances apply (a Dustman contract condemning one to undead servitude, a bargain which hands your soul to the devils, etc).
I figured that under normal circumstances, souls would go to the right place. I was just curious about those that the Lady herself kills by flaying. If they were worshipping her, that means they weren't worshipping a deity (at least, not a standard one) -- so that rules out most of the normal destinations. And I'm thinking that if that's her punishment for worship, it would stand to reason that she could do unpleasant things to the would-be worshipper's soul, as well.
A possibility that occurs to me is that if the Cage really is some sort of prison, perhaps the souls of the flain help maintain it...
I would have to check my Planescape materials, but I'm almost sure that the canon material says that souls of those who die in Sigil do not leave the Cage. I think the rationale was that nothing moves in or out of Sigil without using a portal (that I'm sure about), and the souls of the dead cannot use portals. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 09:52:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I guess its safe to say that people who die in Sigil will end up travelling towards their place of eternal afterlife just the same as if they died in any other place. Even if slain by the Lady - perhaps she can make special efforts and punitive examples out of particularly troublesome victims, condemn their soul to some infinite maze or absorb it into Sigil itself or simply smash it into oblivion, but that hardly seems her style.
Assuming no special circumstances apply (a Dustman contract condemning one to undead servitude, a bargain which hands your soul to the devils, etc).
I figured that under normal circumstances, souls would go to the right place. I was just curious about those that the Lady herself kills by flaying. If they were worshipping her, that means they weren't worshipping a deity (at least, not a standard one) -- so that rules out most of the normal destinations. And I'm thinking that if that's her punishment for worship, it would stand to reason that she could do unpleasant things to the would-be worshipper's soul, as well.
A possibility that occurs to me is that if the Cage really is some sort of prison, perhaps the souls of the flain help maintain it...
They become the dabus/daba? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 04:41:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I guess its safe to say that people who die in Sigil will end up travelling towards their place of eternal afterlife just the same as if they died in any other place. Even if slain by the Lady - perhaps she can make special efforts and punitive examples out of particularly troublesome victims, condemn their soul to some infinite maze or absorb it into Sigil itself or simply smash it into oblivion, but that hardly seems her style.
Assuming no special circumstances apply (a Dustman contract condemning one to undead servitude, a bargain which hands your soul to the devils, etc).
I figured that under normal circumstances, souls would go to the right place. I was just curious about those that the Lady herself kills by flaying. If they were worshipping her, that means they weren't worshipping a deity (at least, not a standard one) -- so that rules out most of the normal destinations. And I'm thinking that if that's her punishment for worship, it would stand to reason that she could do unpleasant things to the would-be worshipper's soul, as well.
A possibility that occurs to me is that if the Cage really is some sort of prison, perhaps the souls of the flain help maintain it... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 02:02:25
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Which god did she slay?
It was mentioned a few times in our replies but: Aoskar |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 10 Oct 2014 : 00:45:25
Which god did she slay? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Oct 2014 : 23:25:14
I guess its safe to say that people who die in Sigil will end up travelling towards their place of eternal afterlife just the same as if they died in any other place. Even if slain by the Lady - perhaps she can make special efforts and punitive examples out of particularly troublesome victims, condemn their soul to some infinite maze or absorb it into Sigil itself or simply smash it into oblivion, but that hardly seems her style.
Assuming no special circumstances apply (a Dustman contract condemning one to undead servitude, a bargain which hands your soul to the devils, etc). |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 09 Oct 2014 : 00:26:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What happens to the souls of those slain by flaying (flain?)?
Nobody knows. I suspect that nobody wants to test any hypothesis given that a god ended up a floating island in the Astral plane in the aftermath of one instance. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 03:56:55
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
2) Flaying - If you worship The Lady, you die. She appears, her shadow falls across you, and wherever it touches, you erupt in a bloody mist, screaming until you die. It's a very messy, horrific and typically public object lesson that this is a line in the sand that for whatever unfathomable reason you Do.Not.Cross.
What happens to the souls of those slain by flaying (flain?)? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 08 Oct 2014 : 02:58:09
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
When goin there... how much in danger, of a flailing from Her Serenity, is someone when just minding there own buisness? When I have been reading about Sigil, it seems that at any moment you could be at the receiving end of her wrath... which I gather noone even Larloch or the Srishee would survive. How random is her punishment?
It isn't like The Lady regularly drifts down the streets, it's a actually a relatively rare thing.
You genuinely have to do something of note to actually garner Her attention, and those generally fall into two categories:
1) Mazing - You disrupt Sigil or its portals, or gain too much power and influence over the city. You do this and it's a quick trip to the Mazes. It isn't the same thing as the 'Maze' spell, but rather you essentially get shunted off into a portion of the city of Sigil itself wrapped and folded in upon itself to form a personalized prison-plane personalized for its occupant. Inside it seems that you don't age, food and water is provided, and there is -always- a single portal out, but you have to find it, and likewise find what the key is. The mazes might be torment, they might be a second chance, they might be an ironic warning to those who arrogant few that cross The Lady.
If you get out and repeat your mistakes, it's usually on to the second category.
2) Flaying - If you worship The Lady, you die. She appears, her shadow falls across you, and wherever it touches, you erupt in a bloody mist, screaming until you die. It's a very messy, horrific and typically public object lesson that this is a line in the sand that for whatever unfathomable reason you Do.Not.Cross.
Why? Nobody knows. If the Lady isn't a god, it's possible that worship could make her into one and thereby actually damage her place in Sigil (if Sigil itself rather than The Lady bars the divine entry). It's possible that The Lady despises the concept of worship, or alternately that she feels that it's the ultimate sacrilege to worship her - something either not worthy of worship, or something so far beyond a mere deity that the would-be faithful mock her by their prayers.
There's also the question of whether or not Aoskar was inside of Sigil when he was flayed. Nobody knows. If he was outside of Sigil, that very much extends the reach of The Lady into not just within Sigil, but to anything that intrudes upon or interferes with the City of Doors (as Fell the dabus's worship of Aoskar did). Likewise we don't know for certain if Factol Skall of the Dustmen was inside of Sigil when he was mazed, or if he was inside of the Dustmen citadel within the Negative Energy Plane.
Best however for PCs not to tempt an answer to such questions. :) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 23:22:32
Ah, that seems obvious. Aoskars last divine act before assumption by the Lady was to slam Sigils door shut and toss the key out between the extraplanar bars.
Those poor Dabus. They did nothing wrong. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 17:12:55
I'd consider the Lady's mazes to be like a divine ability, and not something that mere mortal magic could counter.
Given her mazes and her ability to block divine access, as well as the nature of Sigil itself, I have to wonder if it wasn't intended to be some sort of divine prison... Perhaps it's been repurposed, or perhaps some unknown corners of Sigil do in fact contain imprisoned entities of divine (or greater!) power.... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 14:56:23
I dont know about that... Both Larloch and the Srinshee might be able to counterspell the Maze spell the Lady of Pain is so fond of. Not that they would have an answer to her next spell or attack (like her ability to cause wounds by thought by looking at you). She's more likely to ignore you if you mind your own business though.
I heard a rumor that Her Serenity is actually a former baatezu. Perhaps a obyrinth or ancient baatorian. Another one supposed she is actually six squirrels in a headdress levitated by a ring of levitation. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 07 Oct 2014 : 10:04:20
When goin there... how much in danger, of a flailing from Her Serenity, is someone when just minding there own buisness? When I have been reading about Sigil, it seems that at any moment you could be at the receiving end of her wrath... which I gather noone even Larloch or the Srishee would survive. How random is her punishment? |
| fylth |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 20:45:05
FOr some reason I want to say that somewhere I read there is a portal to Sigil in Ravens Bluff. I can't say for sure, but I THINK I read that somewhere, I might be crazy though |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 13:32:03
Could be... she could be anything.
She may have even been a mortal who achieved uber-epic status (like the Sojourner) and was on-par with gods and primordials.
I like that she is a mystery - it means WE can imagine whatever we want for her.  |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 06 Oct 2014 : 06:15:40
Honestly, I think the Lady would count as a primordial, not a Goddess. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 18:49:56
As an aside, I liken 'deific domains' to 'Domains of Dread' in Ravenloft; the mechanics are very similar. A god is simply a 'Domain Lord' of their specific deific domain (meaning they can control things like the physics of the place, which would include magic). They can also seal their realm.
The one major difference is that gods can leave their domain... but then they become vulnerable (although the ending we got in 3e would indicate the exact opposite - thats gods are ONLY vulnerable in their domain... which is very weird, IMO).
I guess its a matter of degrees... gods are much more vulnerable outside their domains because they aren't in-control of all the variables, but on the up-side, they can reform within their domain if they are killed (kinda like what fiends do). Thats why its easier to hurt them outside, but you can't kill them. If you kill a deity within its domain, for some reason it cannot reform (once again, very much like a fiend), but that might be based-upon the measures taken when the god was killed (for example, there were other things going on in Mystra's domain when she got destroyed, so certain specific methods were used).
I get the idea that when you are inside a god's domain, you are really inside the 'mind' (which would be the same as the body at these levels of power - deities are really little more then lumps of great cosmic energy) of the god - you are at it's core. That is why killing it there can kill it for good; its like a stab in the heart.
So the LoP is very much like a deity, but also very much like a Domain lord from Ravenloft - I get the idea that Sigil truly is her 'Cage'. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 Oct 2014 : 17:45:57
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Who governs magic in Sigil?
I suppose if you want someone to be able to do that, the Lady is your best bet. I guess you could consider Sigil her realm, so she could choose to do that. Much like deities do if they have realms within planes, which allows them to change how magic works within their planar domains.
Otherwise, I'd say no one governs magic within Sigil much like no one does that for planar magic (again, except within deities realms inside of those planes). It just exists, it's part of the plane. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 20:08:11
Some Planescape lore has hinted that Sigil is actually a deeper second planar layer of the Outlands (Concordant Opposition).
But really, the spire is infinitely tall. Anything sitting on top of it can never be reached - cannot even be viewed - from its infinitely distant bottom. Theres no view *outside* of Sigil. Theres no way in or out except for extraplanar portals controlled by some vaguely powerful goddess being. So I suggest theres no guarantee Sigil is where people say it is - it could as easily be on some unexplored fringe of the Outlands (or Astral, or Ethereal), it is functionally no different from a closed Prime or demiplane.
Interestingly, the so-called native inhabitants, Dabu servitors of the Lady, appear to be very closely related to a species native to another place. Sigil (or at least all the stuff its made of) had to come from somewhere. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 17:00:33
Sigil lies untop of the spire of the great wheel, in the outlands. The spire in its center distorts magic, and as one gets closer it eventually even stops divine powers. It is unknown if the Lady of Pain causes this, or the spire itself.
Within the limited space of Sigil itself magic is unrestricted. I think the Athar are probably keenly interested in all visiting spellcasters near the Shattered Temple of Aoskar, keeping tabs on them and reporting their use to their factols in case they need to show spellbeggar clerics that their 'powers' are nothing more then dressed up ritualistic 'arcane' spells. The Fraternity of Order will habitually follow mages if they start upsetting the erratic flow of life in Sigil. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 04 Oct 2014 : 11:08:25
Who governs magic in Sigil? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 01:03:05
Agreed with Shemmy, lore is disserviced by defining beings like Ao or The Lady of Pain any more than the minimum needed for setting and story purposes. Creatures (even gods) with stats are just targets, look at poor Asmodeus being hunted and slain by countless PC parties just because he got stuffed into an AD&D monster manual. Supremely powerful godlike uber beings of some vaguely higher order, on the other hand, cannot even be quantified with any certainty, let alone challenged. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 03 Oct 2014 : 00:56:49
The Lady did usurp Aoskar, a powerful deity of portals and doorways and stuff like that. Perhaps this grants her unusual godlike powers over such things while in Sigil. Remember that Sigil is a finite and small place - its really only a few dozen square miles worth of populated area, at most.
The Lady also does not appear to ever leave Sigil, some (non-canon) sources claim that she is *always* manifest somewhere within Sigil, perhaps she resides in her own private extradimensional maze. Again, Sigil is called The Cage for good reason. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 09:41:49
Her Serenity obliterated a greater deity and his priesthood overnight. I think it's safe to say she's beyond any divine assault.
How AO ranks up against her is unknown, but they probably don't really care either way. AO's involvement in divine affairs is basically summarized as spanking the pantheon for "reasons". |
| Kuje |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 07:30:57
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Whould it be reasonable to assume the Lady would oversee all travel to and from Sigil? I mean she might chose whether or not to open and close the portals, but does she "card" everyone who uses them?
That's how I'd see things, yes. We don't know what she/he/it is and Sigil is a special place with rules that are at her/his/it's whim. So, my thinking would be yea, she/he/it would choose to open and close portals. She's as powerful, if not more so, than some deities since she kicked them all out of Sigil, and keeps them out. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 02 Oct 2014 : 06:52:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But could one not assume, that if AO did not want a portal to open anywhere in realmspace, he would be able to block that? It was my my understanding, that he would have absolute authority within he's sphere? Just as the lade is assumed to have complete control within sigil?
My thinking is that AO is beyond caring about what portals go in and out of Realmspace. That's more of Mystra, or Mystryl's, depending on which age you're playing in, influence and concern since she's the goddess of magic. AO... just has other concerns, or not, to worry about some mundane problems when there's a deity who oversees such things.
Magic changes, or at least it did, depending on which plane you go into. In Sigil itself, it functions normally like it does on most prime worlds, as far as I've ever read.
Indeed AO does not seem to be interested in the affairs of mortal...
Whould it be reasonable to assume the Lady would oversee all travel to and from Sigil? I mean she might chose whether or not to open and close the portals, but does she "card" everyone who uses them? |
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