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 Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive in 5e FR

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Irennan Posted - 24 Sep 2014 : 01:13:13
EDIT 4: Changed the title. Updates can be found in the other edits.

Recently, I've sent a letter to Christopher Perkins (WotC lead world builder and D&D creative manager), talking about Eilistraee's role in the Realms and why I feel that she is an integral, even iconic, part of the setting. The answer that I have received was very encouraging and -since he gave me the ok- I've decided to share it.

quote:
Thank you for your letter and follow-up email. It's always nice to hear from fans who are passionate about our game worlds, the Forgotten Realms in particular.


I can't speak much with regard to the story of Eilistraee thus far, as I was not involved in its creation or evolution. However, I know that during the 3E and 4E era, there was a attempt to shrink the enormous pantheon of FR gods, as well as an effort to paint the drow as being almost universally evil to make it clear that Drizzt Do'Urden is extraordinary. (The argument is that Drizzt becomes less of an iconoclast if there are good drow everywhere.)



Our thinking has changed somewhat with 5E. We would rather embrace the complexities of FR than oversimplify it. The Sundering (as told in recent novels) will enable us to restore all of the "lost" gods of the FR pantheon, including Eilistraee. I don't know the extent to which she'll feature in upcoming stories, but in our minds she is very much alive. I hope this news allays some of your concerns.


Cheers,


Chris Perkins
D&D Story/World-Building Lead
Wizards of the Coast LLC


This is pretty awesome news, including the part about embracing the complexity of the Realms.


EDIT:
A little more news, with Ed's upcoming novel: Spellstorm (thanks to BenN for sharing those) SPOILERS -well, just a little, since this is just a side note and not relevant to the story-:

So, in the novel there's this passage -one of Elminster's thoughts about Mystra's current manifestation-:

[...]Twas no easy thing, being the goddess of magic. A different deity than the rest, in a world so steeped in the Art, a divinity that had to care more for mortals, or embrace utter tyranny. And at the same time share the Weave - the Weave that was Mystra, as well as being so much more - with other deities, or what remained of them, like Eilistraee[...]

This definitely means that Eilistraee is currently alive, since the new Mystra has to share the Weave with her. I've made some questions to Ed in his scroll, I will update this thread once I get answers.

EDIT2:

Ed has answered to my questions:

1)Does that thought refer to the ''present'' time? Yes, that refers to the present time.

2)Are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun separated again? Yes, separate again.

3)Did she manage to survive to the events in LP like some speculated (in a fashion similar to how Mystra did, for example) and emerge again after the Sundering (or has the Sundering simply brought her back)?
Mortals know only of a reappearance, post-Sundering; details to be revealed, perhaps, in the fullness of time (this now 100% confirms that Eilistraee is alive in the present time).

4)Also, in what condition is Eilistraee now, and what are she and her followers doing (and -since I'd like to edit the FR wiki page about her- is she now a demipower, or retained her status of lesser power)?
Current condition? Unknown to mortals (including power level/ranking); sorry.

5)Finally, where is Qilué's soul currently (since we know that the Cescent Blade couldn't destroy souls anymore, given that Cavatina survived it)?
As for the soul you mention: also known. My bet would be on "a voice in the Weave" (there may or may not be more on this status, if not that particular soul, in future fiction, but it's too early to say for certain).

EDIT 3 I feel that there's no need for spoilers here, since what follows has nothing to do with the novel ''Spellstorm'', and since even THO posted it without spoilers. So, here it is:

Hi again, all. Irennan, heeeere's Ed:

Communications being what they are in the Realms, with caravans bringing news and gossip and inevitable distortions as things get told and retold, most mortals can't be certain of much; they always have to trust (or not trust) retellings from afar.
However, the word spreading about the return of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun comes from excited reports of mortal worshippers personally meeting MANIFESTATIONS and AVATARS of the deities; i.e. yes, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are both "back."
Now, as to whether they'll appear face to face with a given mortal in a given location in the Realms, that's a far different matter. The gods in general seem more "distant" post-Sundering, more "heard from" than "personally seen."

And there you have it.
The Word of Ed, so to speak.
love,
THO

EDIT 5: Some more info from Ed, about the relationship between Eilistraee&Vhaeraun, and Eilistraee's clergy.

''Irennan, yes, there can at the present time in the Realms be male clergy of Eilistraee (no changedance necessary).
SOME of their followers are still foes (humans even of the same family and/or political bent and/or organization can disagree fervently, as we're all well aware, and this applies here, too), and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun remain very different in outlook and character...but they now UNDERSTAND each other very thoroughly, and make allowances for each other's differing aims, styles, and strivings far more than they hitherto did...''

EDIT 6: Further info.

''After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.''

''Vhaeraun is back to being himself, with the same portfolios. His ethos is SUBTLY changed; he is now advocating drow dwelling in the World Above (the surface world) be good citizens where doing so will enhance their chances of staying alive and being accepted, and do their evil deeds as covertly as possible. In other words, do good when and where it profits them to do so.''

EDIT 7 Spoilers for ''Death Masks'' (beige text)

I've looked up the preview of the book on Google Books and (although the preview is incomplete and kind of random, when you make a research), this is what I got from it. Somewhen in 1491 DR, Eilistraee has personally manifested, dancing *just* outside the walls of Waterdeep, seen by many Waterdhavians. Following that, many of her followers have been drawn to the City of Splendors (I guess they think of that as some kind of message from the goddess), and they are now there with the intent of building a temple to the Dark Dancer within the walls. They have tried to gain the sponsorship of some nobles or harpers (Remallia Haventree, a moon elf harper that also appear in the Tyranny of Dragons story, has given a positive answer, for example), as they intend to buy some buildings, destroy them, and then magically summons a forest and some rivers within the city, as a dancing place of worship.

EDIT 8 Some relatively recent tidbits

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/776420658783723520?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
The Darksong Knights currently are "thin on the ground at the moment, but very much active."

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/865189046170951680
The Silverhair Knights too are "Still active, still a small order. Usually pray for atonement directly to Eilistraee...and are usually personally answered." (this also means that deities can still be more directly involved with their people, if they so choose)

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/796182273288704000
The Promenade has been stealthily reclaimed, in addition to the new temple that Eilistraee is getting within Waterdeep itself. Ed also added "But can't say more yet; things are HAPPENING down there. ;}"

In the "Assault on Maerimydra" module, it is revealed that a group of followers of Eilistraee has participated to the liberation of the city, with the hope to help as many drow as possible, and to establish good relationships between the drow and the rest of the Moonsea. Assuming that Maerimydra is liberated in the adventure, the Sword Dancers of Eilistraee get to settle within the retaken city and participate to the rebuilding process.

Apparently, Karas and the Hidden also have reappeared (in the Szith Morcane Unbound module), but no explanation at all is given for that :/

30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Irennan Posted - 18 May 2017 : 21:02:32
I've updated the OP with some new info
Irennan Posted - 20 Nov 2016 : 22:24:06
So, apparently a group of Eilistraeeans has settled within Maerimydra, alongside the drow of Szith Morcane, after their cooperation to defeat Graz'zt during the "Rage of Demons" storyline:

In the "Assault on Maerimydra" adventure, the PCs can benefit of the help of a band of Sword Dancers, who are trying to help the drow of Szith Morcane against the invading demons.

quote:
Saradreza Oussmtor/Faithful of Eilistraee:
The scantily clad Sword Dancers of the good-aligned drow goddess of song, beauty, swordsmanship, hunting and moonlight stand out among the other groups. While drow, these beautiful women are friendly and welcoming of everyone. They see the chance to retake Maerimydra and the aiding the drow of Szith Morcane as a chance to rally drow with no interest in remaining under the shackles of Lloth's tyranny. The high priestess of their small circle is Saradreza Oussmtor. She is charismatic and warm-hearted and views this opportunity for cooperation as the best chance to spread their goddess's message. For the pre-assault objectives, the Faithful are considering aiding in convincing the Friendly Dead to ally in the attack.


If the adventurers are successful, and they usually canonically are (although there is the possibility that they abandon the Eilistraeeans to a bunch of undead dwarves--the "friendly dead"--who enjoy killing drow), this happens:

quote:
With the final blow, Graz'zt's form fades away and it is as if a weight has been lifted from your mind. You have done it. Against impossible odds you have forced the Dark Prince back into the Abyss. Without their demonic allies, the allied forced streamed into the city and your victory assured theirs. Maerimydra is liberated! In the days that follow, the drow of Szith Morcane join with the faithful of Eilistraee to occupy the city. The mind flayers of Ryxyg and the myconids of Sporedome join all of the factions in sending members to help rebuild and set up small trading enclaves in the city. On the surface, the government of New Hillsfar and the rebels of Elventree come together in a new openness that has not been seen for generations. Both commit themselves to sending supplies to the starving of Mulmaster and troops to march on Phlan. Your victory has united people above and below the Moonsea! Yet in the quiet of the night, after celebrating your success and mourning the dead, you wonder what became of young Elisande and her goat?


If the characters are not able to defeat Graz'zt:

quote:
And so the desperate attempt to retake Maerimydra has failed. While dealt a deep blow, the forces of the Dark Prince remain ensconced and strong. In the days that follow, the drow of Szith Morcane and the faithful of Eilistraee go their separate ways, preventing any hope for reunion and moderating of the drow in the Moonsea. The mind flayers of Ryxyg and the myconids of Sporedome grow ever distrustful of the surface dwellers and retreat to their respective homes, fearing the next swarm of derro from Ravagestone. On the surface, the government of New Hillsfar and rebels of Elventree never truly come together and many worry that Hillsfar will return to the xenophobic tendencies of past generations. Aid to the starving of Mulmaster and forsaken Phlan is in short supply. You have bought the people above and below the Moonsea more time, but how long remains unknown. Yet in the quiet of the night, while fretting over what could have been and mourning the dead, you wonder what became of young Elisande and her goat?
If the characters liberated any slaves, Maforie, or half-demon babies, the factions take custody of them and plan to see to their care. All of the characters are assumed to successfully travel home after the adventure.
The End
Irennan Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 00:21:27
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Simple!
quote:

"I get you," said Tatarsky. "I think I get you, anyway... That is, hang on there... That means this lot determine that lot, and that lot... That lot determine this lot. But then how... Hang on... Then what's holding the whole lot up?"
He broke off in a howl of pain: Morkovin had pinched him on the wrist as hard as he could - so hard he'd even torn off a small patch of skin.
"Don't you ever," he said, leaning over the table and staring darkly into Tatarsky's eyes, "not ever, think about that. Not ever, get it?"
"But how?" Tatarsky asked, sensing that the pain had thrown him back
from the edge of a deep, dark abyss. "How can I not think about it?" "There's this technique," said Morkovin. "Like when you realise that any moment now you're going to think that thought all the way through, you pinch yourself or you prick yourself with something sharp. In your arm or your leg - it doesn't matter where. Wherever there are plenty of nerve endings. The way a swimmer pricks his calf when he gets cramp. In order not to drown. And then gradually you build up something like a callus around the thought and it's no real problem to you to avoid it. Like, you can feel it's there, only you never think it. And gradually you get used to it. The eighth floor's supported by the seventh floor, the seventh floor's supported by the eighth floor; and everywhere, at any specific point and any specific moment, things are stable. Then, when the work comes piling in, and you do a line of coke, you'll spend the whole day on the run fencing concrete problems. You won't have time left for the abstract ones."
- "Babylon" by Pelevin Victor





Well, wow... I'd prefer to be tormented by doubt, rather than that
TBeholder Posted - 19 Jan 2016 : 20:39:42
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Personally, I didn't like that game, at all.

Eh, we already got a whole thread on that one.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I got the impression it was a bit of both, though I admit I don't know how that would work.

Simple!
quote:

"I get you," said Tatarsky. "I think I get you, anyway... That is, hang on there... That means this lot determine that lot, and that lot... That lot determine this lot. But then how... Hang on... Then what's holding the whole lot up?"
He broke off in a howl of pain: Morkovin had pinched him on the wrist as hard as he could - so hard he'd even torn off a small patch of skin.
"Don't you ever," he said, leaning over the table and staring darkly into Tatarsky's eyes, "not ever, think about that. Not ever, get it?"
"But how?" Tatarsky asked, sensing that the pain had thrown him back
from the edge of a deep, dark abyss. "How can I not think about it?" "There's this technique," said Morkovin. "Like when you realise that any moment now you're going to think that thought all the way through, you pinch yourself or you prick yourself with something sharp. In your arm or your leg - it doesn't matter where. Wherever there are plenty of nerve endings. The way a swimmer pricks his calf when he gets cramp. In order not to drown. And then gradually you build up something like a callus around the thought and it's no real problem to you to avoid it. Like, you can feel it's there, only you never think it. And gradually you get used to it. The eighth floor's supported by the seventh floor, the seventh floor's supported by the eighth floor; and everywhere, at any specific point and any specific moment, things are stable. Then, when the work comes piling in, and you do a line of coke, you'll spend the whole day on the run fencing concrete problems. You won't have time left for the abstract ones."
- "Babylon" by Pelevin Victor


CorellonsDevout Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 02:09:16
Haha well that's probably the explanation we would get if we asked. I agree it doesn't make sense, but that's the impression I got.
Irennan Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 02:07:34
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I got the impression it was a bit of both, though I admit I don't know how that would work.



Yeah, I can't wrap my head around that. It wouldn't logically make any sense, unless we made the actions of one of the two parts meaningless except as symbols, so I go with the deities' moves being symbols for their decisions. And the ''it's gods, so mystery'' explanation would make my eyes roll to no end: once the gods are characters, that justification is out of the picture
CorellonsDevout Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 02:04:10
I got the impression it was a bit of both, though I admit I don't know how that would work.
Irennan Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:55:07
The pieces having free will points towards the game being a metaphor for the actions of the various mortals. Each moves could represent the order, or suggestions, of the gods to their followers (the pawns), and sometimes the mortals misunderstood or chose to act differently. If the game were real (as in, it had real power on the events that happened in the world), then, by all logic, every action of the various characters would be pointless, as it would be pre-determined by the moves of the gods. If a move required the mortals to actually achieve that result first, then the move would just be symbolic.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:49:06
I like that they were characters. To be honest, in spite of the problems with that series, I liked a lot of the characters, gods and mortals alike. I saw the game as both a metaphor and literal. While the followers of both goddesses could be seen as "pawns", they had freewill as well, because, if I remember correctly, there were points in the game when one of the "pieces" would move in a way their respective goddess hadn't planned. I really liked that series, but I can see why others have problems with it. I certainly have issues with the ending (even without the "death" of E and the whole high magical ritual, the ending felt really rushed). But I enjoyed the rest of it, and I cared about what happened to many of the characters.
Irennan Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:37:01
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Having a god appear before a mortal and speaking with them about something serious (a mission, for example), or a priest receiving something from his/her deific patron, be it a vision, manifestion, or what have tou, can add excitement. Sometimes even having a deity pretend to be a mortal can work (if they are doing it for a very specific reason), but I will agree with earlier statements that having a deity appear in your kitchen and talking about the weather or flirting with you, or something mudnane can be cheesy. I like the gods to be involved, and I was actually intrigued by the scene in the Avatar series where they had that council meeting, and I also liked the game between Lolth and Eilistraee. I found that interesting. Having the gods involved makes them more real. But as others have said, it's about how they're presented. When gods are characters, they should still act as -gods-.



Personally, I didn't like that game, at all. Eilistraee choosing to play a game over the fate of her people, gambling everything she has fought for over millennia (especially when she could have simply kept doing what she was doing before, with the power that she acquired during the Silence of Lolth), and all the other deities mindlessly joining in (and for some reason throwing themselves at Eilistraee, one by one) is very far fetched, and even OOC, IMHO.

On the other hand, I also feel that the whole game was a huge metaphor. We have two possibilities: the actions in the game determine what happens, or the actions of mortals do. In the first case, the actions of the mortals, reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would be pointless, since the result would be decided by the game, no matter what happened on the Prime. If the actions of the followers actually determined their own outcome and-say- a move could only be made after the same thing happened on the Prime, then the game would be pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would just be representations of what happens in the world.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:32:28
Having a god appear before a mortal and speaking with them about something serious (a mission, for example), or a priest receiving something from his/her deific patron, be it a vision, manifestion, or what have tou, can add excitement. Sometimes even having a deity pretend to be a mortal can work (if they are doing it for a very specific reason), but I will agree with earlier statements that having a deity appear in your kitchen and talking about the weather or flirting with you, or something mudnane can be cheesy. I like the gods to be involved, and I was actually intrigued by the scene in the Avatar series where they had that council meeting, and I also liked the game between Lolth and Eilistraee. I found that interesting. Having the gods involved makes them more real. But as others have said, it's about how they're presented. When gods are characters, they should still act as -gods-.
Aulduron Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:18:41
If I were running a campaign, I'd say she survived because she is also Mieliki.
LordofBones Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 15:42:36
The key to divine beings is presentation. You don't necessarily need to have deities blow kingdoms to bits, but there should be hints about how powerful they are, like the metal of the avatar of Velsharoon's crown really being raw positive energy.

Even something like class features or natural abilities being suppressed, like Lathander being ten miles away removes turn resistance on all undead just by being around.
Eltheron Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 14:26:41
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

I mean, the simplest explanation is that they aren't particularly good writers and that they try to do better but don't always succeed, obviously.
In any case, I've never paid overmuch attention to Realms fiction anyway, as it's always been one of the less interesting parts of Faerun I thought, not to mention extremely inconsistent with the backround in a general sense.


I'm not sure that logic or Occam's razor really applies well in situations involving opinions based on taste.

Many people seem to love having their gods walk around, fight with them, act goofy, even have sex with them. There are quite a few Realms writers who are pretty terrible, but consider that one of the reasons that TV shows like Hercules and Xena were so popular was because they had the Greek gods wandering around acting very human. Hera was portrayed as cruel and vengeful, Aphrodite as capricious and giggly, Ares as jealous (of Hercules) and sexy (for Xena). Those characters were extremely popular, well-loved, and pure camp.

More than anything, the Realms (whether the game world or the novel setting), has always catered to the loudest segment of its fanbase. So I don't think it's any real surprise that it's cheesy, campy, and filled to the brim with every D&D idea/concept out there (including the kitchen sink).
CorellonsDevout Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 13:30:13
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ed mentioned something like that in a panel. He wanted the gods to be mysterious and awe-inspiring, but over time they turned "Greek-like" (though ironically Mystra is one of his main characters). Personally, I like when the gods are characters, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise they lose their mystery. I think it can be done. I don't want to see the gods become so distant they practically aren't there, but I also don't want to see them being "in your face". I think the gods help enrich the setting, but I think there is a balance. It makes sense that the gods are involved to a point.



From what he has recently said, Ed occasionaly uses gods, even directly in his game (he said that Elminster and the Seven Sisters have talked face to face to Eilistraee, for example). The key is occasionally, and done so that the appearance of the deity is memorable and needed, enriching the story.



I can agree to this. I think if done right, it can add to the story. Of course, I like deities, so I tend to be more in favor of their involvement (to a point). There comes a time when it's overkill for me.
Irennan Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 13:26:30
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ed mentioned something like that in a panel. He wanted the gods to be mysterious and awe-inspiring, but over time they turned "Greek-like" (though ironically Mystra is one of his main characters). Personally, I like when the gods are characters, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise they lose their mystery. I think it can be done. I don't want to see the gods become so distant they practically aren't there, but I also don't want to see them being "in your face". I think the gods help enrich the setting, but I think there is a balance. It makes sense that the gods are involved to a point.



From what he has recently said, Ed occasionaly uses gods, even directly in his game (he said that Elminster and the Seven Sisters have talked face to face to Eilistraee, for example). The key is occasionally, and done so that the appearance of the deity is memorable and needed, enriching the story.

Personally, this is something that I would only do with lesser deities, or with deities that don't embody cosmic forces. A deity of death, magic, entropy and so on (i.e. concepts that are really hard to grasp, or wrap one's mind around, or give a meaning to. I don't include things like love, hate or hope in this category: those are very well known to mortals), would become alien, and detached from the mortal perspective (even when they are ascended mortals). All of this is just my opinion, ofc, and I'm aware that in canon things aren't really like this.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 13:07:15
Ed mentioned something like that in a panel. He wanted the gods to be mysterious and awe-inspiring, but over time they turned "Greek-like" (though ironically Mystra is one of his main characters). Personally, I like when the gods are characters, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise they lose their mystery. I think it can be done. I don't want to see the gods become so distant they practically aren't there, but I also don't want to see them being "in your face". I think the gods help enrich the setting, but I think there is a balance. It makes sense that the gods are involved to a point.
LordofBones Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 08:28:54
Deities and beings on their level of power should be awe-inspiring.

Being a chosen of Wugga-Wugga isn't going to save you from falling to your knees before Bane's direct presence, choking on your own fear as you thrash and sob helplessly with visions of your family and friends bound before the Black Altar in eternal servitude flashing before your eyes. Likewise, when you stand before Lathander, all you can see is his brilliant radiance filling your mind; you see your youth restored and the triumphs of the young before your eyes, and every dark doubt you have is driven from you by the glory of that young, burning sun.

That all pales before Sune though; questioning priests and paladins about how Sune rewards her most devout brings up big, goofy grins and glazed eyes. Possibly with some giggling.
Brylock Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 08:01:14
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


Indeed they are not, as they are fictional and this used however we want.
But from a fictional standpoint, if Lolth does everything and Corellon does nothing or Bhaal or Bane or whoever gets directly involved (I seem to recall n 3e the Chosen of Talona leading group of villains called the Blightlords to inflict the Great Dale with a horrid zombie virus thing and Silvanus not doing anything to aid what would be a significant loss of worshippers to him), I note that very frequently in Realms fiction (and fantasy fiction in general, such as Dragonlance) good deities do little to directly aid their worshippers while evil ones get hugely and blatantly directly involved.

I can't say WHY this happens but for whatever reason it seems to be the overwhelming majority in fantasy fiction....that or the somewhat newer "all the deities are jerks all along" thing that I see now and again.
Good deities in fantasy and the Realms aren't inherently anything except fictional it's true, but for whatever reason they often seem to be used in a much more passive context then evil deities.


I absolutely agree with you about novels overusing gods, often overshadowing the mortal protagonists.

Realms fiction has always been (unfortunately) particularly bad at bringing in gods to act as direct protagonists. Personally, I really hate it when that happens. I loathed the Time of Troubles for the especially cheesy god activities, and in a lot of ways it's been a staple in Realms fiction ever since.

Mystra's probably been the biggest or most frequently guilty deity in that regard, which is why a lot of people wanted her dead (and why they killed her at the start of 4E). People asked for her back, but WotC tends to show us only extreme pendulum swings. Either she's in everybody's business and showing up for lunch and afternoon delight with Elminster, or she's dead. Selune running a bar as a wench and getting butt-pinches during 2E was drivel.

Lathander's, Helm's, Sune's, and Mielikki's involvement in the Sundering (all separate novels) was also pretty cringeworthy IMO.

People hated Eilistraee's portrayal near her end.

Honestly, I don't quite understand why so many novelists love making deities stupid, cheesy, or massively over-involved. We end up with more cheese than anything else in the overarching Realms metastory.


I mean, the simplest explanation is that they aren't particularly good writers and that they try to do better but don't always succeed, obviously.
In any case, I've never paid overmuch attention to Realms fiction anyway, as it's always been one of the less interesting parts of Faerun I thought, not to mention extremely inconsistent with the backround in a general sense.
Eltheron Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 06:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


Indeed they are not, as they are fictional and this used however we want.
But from a fictional standpoint, if Lolth does everything and Corellon does nothing or Bhaal or Bane or whoever gets directly involved (I seem to recall n 3e the Chosen of Talona leading group of villains called the Blightlords to inflict the Great Dale with a horrid zombie virus thing and Silvanus not doing anything to aid what would be a significant loss of worshippers to him), I note that very frequently in Realms fiction (and fantasy fiction in general, such as Dragonlance) good deities do little to directly aid their worshippers while evil ones get hugely and blatantly directly involved.

I can't say WHY this happens but for whatever reason it seems to be the overwhelming majority in fantasy fiction....that or the somewhat newer "all the deities are jerks all along" thing that I see now and again.
Good deities in fantasy and the Realms aren't inherently anything except fictional it's true, but for whatever reason they often seem to be used in a much more passive context then evil deities.


I absolutely agree with you about novels overusing gods, often overshadowing the mortal protagonists.

Realms fiction has always been (unfortunately) particularly bad at bringing in gods to act as direct protagonists. Personally, I really hate it when that happens. I loathed the Time of Troubles for the especially cheesy god activities, and in a lot of ways it's been a staple in Realms fiction ever since.

Mystra's probably been the biggest or most frequently guilty deity in that regard, which is why a lot of people wanted her dead (and why they killed her at the start of 4E). People asked for her back, but WotC tends to show us only extreme pendulum swings. Either she's in everybody's business and showing up for lunch and afternoon delight with Elminster, or she's dead. Selune running a bar as a wench and getting butt-pinches during 2E was drivel.

Lathander's, Helm's, Sune's, and Mielikki's involvement in the Sundering (all separate novels) was also pretty cringeworthy IMO.

People hated Eilistraee's portrayal near her end.

Honestly, I don't quite understand why so many novelists love making deities stupid, cheesy, or massively over-involved. We end up with more cheese than anything else in the overarching Realms metastory.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 03:56:39
Okay, so I don't really want to get in another argument about Corellon, considering the last time I was the only one who wasn't waving the "Corellon sucks" banner, and I have said my opinions in past threads about the drow and the Crown Wars. All I will say is that I think if the elven race were truly threatened, Corellon and the Seldarine would intervene. As the Crown Wars raged on, the elves were on the verge of annilating themselves, and the Seldarine stepped in and said enough, and had them make the Elven Court, so that the CW would not happen again. The Seldarine as a whole I think are more subtle in how they interact with their followers (though Shevarash might be more involved), other than obvious certain points in history involving high mages. I seem to remember reading in the Last Mythal series that Corellon encouraged his people to better themselves and their society via their own means, though the Seldarine are also a big part of many elven lives. It's just not direct involvement. I wish thr Seldarine got more face time, personally. With the exception of a few books, when the gods are involved, it's typically the "human" ones. Anyway, 'nuff said here. I have said it all before in other threads.

I will say that Eilistraee is actively involved with her followers in part because she has to be. They have a hard task in front of them. But the fact that the drow can hear her song with a little guidance is proof they have freewill (I believe that life is a combination of nature and nurture, not one vs the other. This applies to the drow as well). I am eager to see what the future holds for the drow siblings, now that they seem more inclined to work together.
Irennan Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 01:52:21
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I prefer to use Jim Butcher's handling of powerful entities. Greater deities, pantheon heads and the like don't interfere but instead 'nudge' or gently push the appropriate mortals towards their goals.

A drow ciy marches towards an elven outpost, just as a young paladin accidentally stumbles on the crypt of the ancient elven archmage sworn to guard the forest.

A champion of Torm rides to strike down the undead scourge in the Battle of Bones, while at that same time a necromancer randomly picks up a curious book that happens to detail how the undead host of Myrkul turned typical Tormite battle strategy against them.

The reavers of Garagos launch an assault on Sembia, but a young marshal is inspired after watching a stag outmaneuver a pack of wolves.

That kind of thing.



I think that each deity should have their own, personal MO when it comes to interaction with mortals. However, for greater deities, who tend to be much more powerful, knowing and distant than lesser powers, I too would use this kind of approach as default.
LordofBones Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 01:38:50
I prefer to use Jim Butcher's handling of powerful entities. Greater deities, pantheon heads and the like don't interfere but instead 'nudge' or gently push the appropriate mortals towards their goals.

A drow ciy marches towards an elven outpost, just as a young paladin accidentally stumbles on the crypt of the ancient elven archmage sworn to guard the forest.

A champion of Torm rides to strike down the undead scourge in the Battle of Bones, while at that same time a necromancer randomly picks up a curious book that happens to detail how the undead host of Myrkul turned typical Tormite battle strategy against them.

The reavers of Garagos launch an assault on Sembia, but a young marshal is inspired after watching a stag outmaneuver a pack of wolves.

That kind of thing.
Brylock Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 00:30:51
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


I meant more in a narrative context, as opposed to a GMing context.
I try to have the deities themselves relatively uninvolved beyond the context of their cults, churches, or occasionally their Chosen.


Level of involvement by deities is both a narrative and GMing choice. They're linked.

If I'm reading you correctly, you prefer keeping deity (and perhaps NPC) involvement as background. That's certainly a valid choice. But it's also an entirely valid choice to have deity and NPC involvement as active, unfolding story elements.

My point here isn't to argue, it's just to underscore that deities and their involvement aren't limiting factors inherent to the setting or to D&D. Good deities aren't inherently useless. It's a choice we make, as GMs, for the unfolding narrative.





Indeed they are not, as they are fictional and this used however we want.
But from a fictional standpoint, if Lolth does everything and Corellon does nothing or Bhaal or Bane or whoever gets directly involved (I seem to recall n 3e the Chosen of Talona leading group of villains called the Blightlords to inflict the Great Dale with a horrid zombie virus thing and Silvanus not doing anything to aid what would be a significant loss of worshippers to him), I note that very frequently in Realms fiction (and fantasy fiction in general, such as Dragonlance) good deities do little to directly aid their worshippers while evil ones get hugely and blatantly directly involved.

I can't say WHY this happens but for whatever reason it seems to be the overwhelming majority in fantasy fiction....that or the somewhat newer "all the deities are jerks all along" thing that I see now and again.
Good deities in fantasy and the Realms aren't inherently anything except fictional it's true, but for whatever reason they often seem to be used in a much more passive context then evil deities.
Eltheron Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 22:50:29
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


I meant more in a narrative context, as opposed to a GMing context.
I try to have the deities themselves relatively uninvolved beyond the context of their cults, churches, or occasionally their Chosen.


Level of involvement by deities is both a narrative and GMing choice. They're linked.

If I'm reading you correctly, you prefer keeping deity (and perhaps NPC) involvement as background. That's certainly a valid choice. But it's also an entirely valid choice to have deity and NPC involvement as active, unfolding story elements.

My point here isn't to argue, it's just to underscore that deities and their involvement aren't limiting factors inherent to the setting or to D&D. Good deities aren't inherently useless. It's a choice we make, as GMs, for the unfolding narrative.

Brylock Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 22:25:29
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


Of course he's useless. Good deities are ALWAYS useless in fantasy stuff.
If they ever actually DID anything there'd be no reason for heroes to go adventuring.
That's like asking "but why are their dragons in this fantasy setting"?
The answer is almost always something along the likes of "because dragons always show up in fantasy somehow, shut up".

Admittedly the whole "good gods do nothing" thing was less of a problem back BEFORE the gods started being ridiculously active on Faerun proper after the ToT thing, but that's more of an editorial decision then a rule of fantasy in general.


No offense meant here, but I think this entirely depends on your perspective and how you choose to use deities. Good deities are not inherently useless unless you choose to make them so distant that they might as well not be there. The same applies to good NPCs as well.

Good deities can provide inspiration, aid, portents, dreams, signs, even direct story motivation or prompting. They might intervene more directly with an obvious sign, speech, or even sending aid in the forms of magic, items, clues, or perhaps even a celestial helper or guide.

It entirely depends upon you, the DM, on how you choose to use them or not.

Same thing applies to good NPCs, allies, and the like. You can be overkill and have a good king or noble supply your PCs with gold, magic, items, information, or outright commands, or even combat support with retainers, squads, or armies to follow your orders.

At minimum, good deities are like good NPCs. But I'd argue they're actually more useful than good NPCs, because a good deity can supply (or deny) a PC with moral guidance, spells, or even more direct forms of divine assistance when things seem utterly hopeless.

It all depends on how you play. You may prefer totally uninvolved and distant deities but that's not the way everyone likes to play their game. It's not the game in this case, it's your personal choices on how you play the game.




I meant more in a narrative context, as opposed to a GMing context.
I try to have the deities themselves relatively uninvolved beyond the context of their cults, churches, or occasionally their Chosen.
Eltheron Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 21:02:40
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock


Of course he's useless. Good deities are ALWAYS useless in fantasy stuff.
If they ever actually DID anything there'd be no reason for heroes to go adventuring.
That's like asking "but why are their dragons in this fantasy setting"?
The answer is almost always something along the likes of "because dragons always show up in fantasy somehow, shut up".

Admittedly the whole "good gods do nothing" thing was less of a problem back BEFORE the gods started being ridiculously active on Faerun proper after the ToT thing, but that's more of an editorial decision then a rule of fantasy in general.


No offense meant here, but I think this entirely depends on your perspective and how you choose to use deities. Good deities are not inherently useless unless you choose to make them so distant that they might as well not be there. The same applies to good NPCs as well.

Good deities can provide inspiration, aid, portents, dreams, signs, even direct story motivation or prompting. They might intervene more directly with an obvious sign, speech, or even sending aid in the forms of magic, items, clues, or perhaps even a celestial helper or guide.

It entirely depends upon you, the DM, on how you choose to use them or not.

Same thing applies to good NPCs, allies, and the like. You can be overkill and have a good king or noble supply your PCs with gold, magic, items, information, or outright commands, or even combat support with retainers, squads, or armies to follow your orders.

At minimum, good deities are like good NPCs. But I'd argue they're actually more useful than good NPCs, because a good deity can supply (or deny) a PC with moral guidance, spells, or even more direct forms of divine assistance when things seem utterly hopeless.

It all depends on how you play. You may prefer totally uninvolved and distant deities but that's not the way everyone likes to play their game. It's not the game in this case, it's your personal choices on how you play the game.
Irennan Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 19:10:44
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

You mistake me it seems; I don't mean to imply all drow are BORN evil, because this would remove them of true free will and thus make them constructs at best, whom do not worship and thus don't generate that Faithjuice the deities love so much.
I mean to suggest drow are born with a strong biological tendency towards it because of changes Lolth made when they fell; they could have a higher rate of natural sociopathic behavior (which is most often a brain chemistry thing rather then a parenting one), or a deceased ability to process "pleasant" emotions with negative ones (such as hurting others) giving them more stimuli as individuals so they never really WANT to be "good".
Consider the orcs; they universally have anger problems, and everyone accepts that this is because orcish blood carries issues like increase temper problems and a huge adrenaline rush that comes from breaking stuff, meaning they're more likely to be violent rather then peaceful. There's people in real life that have issues with their adrenaline and testosterone levels that make them naturally more aggressive in real life.
I assume Lolth could've "altered" the dark elves in some way when they completely fell under her sway to ensure that it would be harder then ever for them to escape her, which also would nicely explain the biological changes they went through (they had browned skin previously and now it's truly black). Drow still HAVE free will of course, but I like to think in an ultimate act of pettiness and selfishness Lolth had them altered somehow to ensure that they were somewhat less likely to exercise free will in a way that displeases Lolth's twisted ideals.

It's sounds like something Lolth would actually DO and fits in with the drow changing when they finally went underground in addition to being somewhat more internally consistent then "magic underground radiation junk" or "a demon did it".



This would basically be a less drastic version of ''drow are born evil'', though, as their ''biology'' would still be an impairment to their free will. It might be true, ofc, as we don't have a ''canonical truth'' on it, but I prefer to leave innate factors completely, or mostly, out of the picture.

My preference is to look at how the drow changed as a slow, ''mind-poisoning'' action from Lolth, and those drow who gained power, status, or other beneficts from dealing with her (and were therefore interested to enforce her dogma).

IIRC, when Lolth took the drow underground, she was the only major power who would accept them and give them safety (after the Dark Disaster, Eilistraee lost so many of her followers that her power/influence was so scarce that -while she surely tried to be a guide for the drow- she couldn't do much), the one who appeared to know ''best'' for their race. So, with the Seldarine and all elves shunning them (even survivors of Miyeritar and the innocent Ilythiiri) the drow saw a guidance in her, giving her the perfect opportunity to start a cycle of brainwashing and indoctrination, letting her impose to the drow the kind of life that they still have now.

They saw it as what's ''best'' for them, the unique way. Lolth/her priestesses might have promised them that, through the guidance of the goddess, their race would become strong, would have vengeance over the elves that exiled them from their own place and so on. Everything else would have led them to be weak and be crushed by their enemies. So, slowly, one step per time, with seduction and promises, by isolating the drow from the rest of the world, by crushing any possible ''divergent'' idea that might have led to progress (or to finding alternatives) Lolth molded the lives of the drow, their society, mindsets. And with time, ''the way of Lolth'' has become so ingrained in their mind that their existence revolves about it. So drow are now told since their birth that they must kill or be killed, dominate or be dominated, and everything around them shows that it is actually true, leading them down the ''path of evil'' (because they are forced to ''do evil'' if they want to survive, and because any attempt to dissent is punished with tourture and death).

Furthermore, they are brainwashed into believing that the individual has no intirinsical value, that ''status'' and ''power'' are the only things that matter and can make a person matter, and that they can only be acquired through the favor of the goddess. This means that a lot of lolthite drow are ready to fanatically pursue anything the Spider Queen deems appropriate, because that's the only thing that might make them worth anything, and she easily makes tools for her mad goals out of them. For example most drow have their life chosen without having a say on it, because Lolth's dogma says that they have to become X.
Brylock Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 19:01:08
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

If this were to be made official (and I really hope so), it would also explains why Corellon didn't show even the slightest emotion at the end: both his children actually never died.



Corellon doing nothing at the end of the novel fits exactly with what he's been doing all this time. His elves have caused multiple magical catastrophes over the centuries, altering all of Faerun, and he does nothing to limit their use of High Magic. He does zero outreach to those good drow who could be reached, those descendants of the Miyeritari who were unfairly banished from the surface due to his reckless worshippers (and might I add that gold elves are every bit as worthy of getting banished as the drow, yet never have been).

He's completely impotent as a deity. We've seen Lolth, Gruumsh, and other evil deities raise up Chosen and relentlessly attack his children. We've seen human expansion push the elves out of their natural habitats. We've seen Myth Drannor under siege by Shar's minions. Corellon is either the least active Greater God in the Realms, or writers just choose to ignore him like they do Selune. He's never even shown lifting a finger to aid his daughter Eilistraee in her difficult uphill battle against Lolth.



Yeah, that's my concern as well. He doesn't do anything ever. At the end of the LP he just appears and is all like ''Yay, free followers'' (assuming that Eilistraee's followers would actually follow him). He doesn't show any feeling towards his daughter or son, nothing. I feel that it is OOC for Corellon to do so (Ed's version of the events would justify his behaviour when he appears at the end of those novels, at least)

@combatmedic
quote:
Maybe Correllon believes so strongly in free will that he refuses to intervene in mortal affairs except in certain very special cases?


So does Eilistraee, and yet she is described as aiding her people in their everyday life (in her role of mother goddess), but doing so subtly, leaving them full freedom to choose their way.

Besides, the issue is that Corellon is portrayed as doing nothing to aid Eilistraee, not just her followers. But then this is kind in line with what it is said about the relationship between the Dark Maiden and the Seldarine (described as strained).



Of course he's useless. Good deities are ALWAYS useless in fantasy stuff.
If they ever actually DID anything there'd be no reason for heroes to go adventuring.
That's like asking "but why are their dragons in this fantasy setting"?
The answer is almost always something along the likes of "because dragons always show up in fantasy somehow, shut up".

Admittedly the whole "good gods do nothing" thing was less of a problem back BEFORE the gods started being ridiculously active on Faerun proper after the ToT thing, but that's more of an editorial decision then a rule of fantasy in general.
Brylock Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 18:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

I think at least to some degree drow are "programmed" before birth with things that make them have strong tendencies towards evil.
They retconned some stuff in those recent novels, but it's even the current explanation in 5e that certain races are nearly always evil not just out of nurture but because their deity cruelly created them with tendencies that strongly push them towards evil (orcs being biologically inclined to great fury and violence) because that nets them a steadier stream of devoted worshippers since they have less choice in the matter then normal.
I think that's as good an explanation as any for why the drow are so depraved, whatever Lolth (and that Wendonai demon in Faerun) did to them after they fell after the Crown Wars made them more or less genetically predisposed towards their twisted behaviors.
I think every once in awhile due to the influence of Elistraee one is born with true choice between good or evil like every other free race. This would nicely explain why guys like Drizzt were so different even though he went through the exact same nuture that other drow did and yet never really became as terrible a person. Sadly, I imagine that most drow who have free will eventually choose evil in the end because they aren't aware there's any better options in their horrid little culture rather then take the risky and dangerous route of trying to find a better way to live and abandon everything they know for an uncertain future.


The drow weren't really created with ''biological'' tendecy towards evil, though. Lolth had some matrons mate with Wendonai, and his ''taint'' eventually, with time, catched up to most drow. However, it isn't gamebreaking, as --for example-- most Eilistraee's followers were/are still ''tainted'' and yet they manage to choose a different way. Drizzt himself is tainted. The thing said at the end of LP (the ''unwilling'' were cast down and there is nothing to do for them) is the actual retcon. If we look at previous examples, and to how, like I said, tainted drow have free will: having Lolth's breath on their neck, her continuous brainwahsing has a much larger influence in their behaviour than some taint. For comparison, if you take a child and show to him/her that love doesn't exist, that happiness is weakness, that the only ''joy'' is in dominating over the others, and that they have no value beyond thei social status. If you show him/her that violence is the only way to survival, and that anything else would lead to his/her death.. what will become of said child? (S)he will likely grow up insane, twisted and broken like most drow are.

quote:

Vhaeraun wants his people to NOT be slaves to their nature, but the master of it instead.
Lolth would have the drow remain more or less as they are, but Vhaeraun would rather be like Bane or Bhaal; sure his worshippers have choice, but are they any less powerful because of it? No, in fact they are GREATER then Lolth in some ways and have constantly had more influence, specifically because their worshippers aren't automatically inclined to be evil but have to make the choice themselves.
Vhaeraun's like some sort of twisted emancipator figure; he want's his people free...admittedly free to go do the same things they do now, just to everyone else and not just themselves, but free nonetheless.
It's why I could kinda see Elistraee and him at a sort of mutually agreed ceasefire; they want the same thing in different ways, and both know Lolth is the biggest obstacle to achieving it.



That's true. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun share a goal, in part at least, and it makes no sense for them to be at each other's throat when Lolth is out there. But,as Ed said, spending time as the Masked Lady, they learned to understand and respect each other, and I think that this opened the minds of both for the better.



I mean, I know all that with the Wendonai taint thing.
But the other explanation for everything is simply "the Realms has very bad writing and even worse editors", as at no point is "nature versus nurture" brought up when it comes to good drow (which apparently there's enough of to sustain a goddess) because basically without exception all are raised the exact same way as other drow given the uniformity of their culture.
Good drow are good "because", with no explanation and zero story or writing impetus as to why they suddenly turned out better and had a conscience when every other drow kid went through literally the exact same thing and did NOT turn into a decent person.

The answers to these questions of course exist out of universe; most Realms novelists aren't particularly good authors, drow are popular so they created more good drow, Elistraee gained more prominence as good drow characters became more common, and so on and so forth.
Like many DM's and players I like to think my way around bad writing and try to come up with slightly more stable and internally consistent explanations rather just throw up my hands and admit "Yeah, a lot of it is just garbage, but what can you do? Roll up your PC already".



Oh, I agree. However, since it is stated nowhere that drow are born evil, if we are to make our personal explanation, then I'd like to not involve biology, original sin, or whatever you have in this kind of matter. IMO, it cheapens it. Why some drow manage to escape and other don't? Various reasons: IMO every drow sees the nonsense in the life they're forced to experience. Ed has also said (and this is canon) that (quoting what it is said on the FR wiki, which paraphrases what Ed said):

''Eilistraee sings her call to all dark elves—from the highest matron mother to the lowest male slave[...] The drow definitely come to know about and "feel" the Dark Dancer at some point in their lives, but many don't understand or choose to disbelieve/reject them[...] Even then, many drow secretly yearn for the goddess and all that she wishes for them''

So, while many drow may want to escape, you can't expect most of them to have the resources or the intelligence to do so without aid. A lot of them don't even understand their desire, and may need someone to help them get their ideas together. Even for those who know what they want, escaping their lives and beginning anew elsewhere is not easy: drow are hated, they are often attacked on sight. The underdark is an hostile place, so being an exile there is hard; the surface is an unknown and alien land to them (and dangerous too). Faced with this perspective, most drow don't feel like they have a real choice. That's also why Eilistraeens have undercover priestesses living in drow cities, to find and aid those drow.

Also, the life that Lolth imposes to the drow isn't merely evil: it is of self-destruction and sacrifice. The drow are worth nothing in their society (and they know that), they don't know what genuine joy is, what freedom is and so on. ''Evil'' doesn't equal to this, and even ''evil'' people would seek an alternative to this.



You mistake me it seems; I don't mean to imply all drow are BORN evil, because this would remove them of true free will and thus make them constructs at best, whom do not worship and thus don't generate that Faithjuice the deities love so much.
I mean to suggest drow are born with a strong biological tendency towards it because of changes Lolth made when they fell; they could have a higher rate of natural sociopathic behavior (which is most often a brain chemistry thing rather then a parenting one), or a deceased ability to process "pleasant" emotions with negative ones (such as hurting others) giving them more stimuli as individuals so they never really WANT to be "good".
Consider the orcs; they universally have anger problems, and everyone accepts that this is because orcish blood carries issues like increase temper problems and a huge adrenaline rush that comes from breaking stuff, meaning they're more likely to be violent rather then peaceful. There's people in real life that have issues with their adrenaline and testosterone levels that make them naturally more aggressive in real life.
I assume Lolth could've "altered" the dark elves in some way when they completely fell under her sway to ensure that it would be harder then ever for them to escape her, which also would nicely explain the biological changes they went through (they had browned skin previously and now it's truly black). Drow still HAVE free will of course, but I like to think in an ultimate act of pettiness and selfishness Lolth had them altered somehow to ensure that they were somewhat less likely to exercise free will in a way that displeases Lolth's twisted ideals.

It's sounds like something Lolth would actually DO and fits in with the drow changing when they finally went underground in addition to being somewhat more internally consistent then "magic underground radiation junk" or "a demon did it".

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