| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 18:03:12
Ok I'm currently building a character for my wife. She's playing a bard who also happens to be a 'gypsy' type character. So, I'm wondering who would make the best gypsy-ish deity?
A few generalizations about gypsy culture:
1. They do not recognize the existence of private property (they believe the fruit of the land belongs to all).
2. For the most part they do not seek wealth for its own sake, only for its practical value.
3. They are free-thinkers and believes in personal freedom.
4. They usually revere nature.
5. They may be more inclined to worship concepts moreso than actual deities.
6. They are extremely loyal, but their loyalty is hard to earn.
7. Possession=ownership.
8. Rigid beliefs/customs are foolish, better to be free and 'be yourself' they say.
Most of this comes from the 2e Complete Bard's Handbook and I consider it a decent enough treatise on the gypsy culture (at least as far as DnD goes).
With the above generalizations I am thinking any number of gods may work for them. Mask, Tymora, any nature deity, Deneir or Milil (as music deities) and a number of Seldarine could work as well. The closest 'ideal' I've come across is Olidammara from Oerth/Greyhawk (CN deity of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor and trickery). I may simply port him over to the Realms but...
But, if you had a single Realmsian 'patron' deity for gypsies, who would it be? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Swordsage |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 06:14:27
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Sorry I had to butt in on this old thread(I was considering making a new one on this subject) but people are often mistaken as to what "Gypsyish" is and don't realise in most cases used by white people, constitutes an ethnic slur.
I made a comic about this recently - http://crystallineprincess.tumblr.com/post/97434091660/ellie-the-glamrock-fairy-princess-in-cultural
You might be best off just having her as a general Bohemian type(like my character in the above comic) or a Moon Elf - they travel in caravans and fit some of the things people like about "Gypsies" but aren't really aping Romani culture. Also keep in mind that most Romani(and in fact, Gur in the setting) mostly travelled due to fleeing war and persecution - or to find work. They aren't inherently nomadic free spirit types, and are generally very poor.
Also Ayrik, um, that's like really really racist.
Gyp·sy also Gip·sy (jps)
n. pl. Gyp·sies also Gip·sies
1. A member of a people that arrived in Europe in migrations from northern India around the 14th century, now also living in North America and Australia. Many Gypsy groups have preserved elements of their traditional culture, including an itinerant existence and the Romany language.
2. See Romany.
3. One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life.
4. A person who moves from place to place as required for employment, especially:
a. A part-time or temporary member of a college faculty.
b. A member of the chorus line in a theater production.
I'm assuming that Ayrick was going with dictionary definition 3.
Also Roseweave, um, that's like really really presumptuous to think otherwise.
The Swordsage |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 04:58:06
So I think I am now considering using Gypsies in my campaign now that I have been reminded of that adventure from Dragon 93. Are there any other references to these Romani-esque Gur folk (besides RoF)? Where else have they been described? I may use that adventure whole cloth with a mix of conflict between Asmodeus and Eldath and/or Shaundakul.
Possibly might even include a curse like Steven King's Thinner. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 04:55:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I am going to one last time ask that we end this discussion now. I'm about to start removing posts. 
Consider it ended on my part. I'm not looking for any fights. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 04:41:24
And I am going to one last time ask that we end this discussion now. I'm about to start removing posts. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 04:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
... which is in of itself racist. Thus my problem. You can't censor criticism of racism but allow the racist. This will be my last word on it until I get a friend to comment on it. Keep in mind when I do if you shut down a Roma person's ability to comment on this it will look very very racist. No amount of your own research can trump that and it shouldn't be up to us to determine how long a discussion with regards racism and misrepresentation of Romani people should go on.
Having debated with you on a topic before, and having witnessed your contributions to other threads, I can honestly say that you're smart and make some noteworthy points. But you approach people with a chip on your shoulder, and you sometimes sound hostile from the onset of a discussion. You're always encouraging others to examine issues from a different perspective, and to be aware of how seemingly harmless words can negatively affect people. That's admirable, but you should also be aware that your words sometimes hurt others more than you intend.
Calling people racists and sexists and homophobes is unproductive. You miss valuable opportunities to educate people, and win them over to your side, when you scold them like children. I promise you that very few people will ever respond well to that. Instead, they will respond defensively, and in turn you will use their defensive response as evidence that you're being persecuted. If you treat people like they are out to get you, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Just to drop back in and say this is not how you talk to a marginalised person defending another group of marginalised people. I mean, there are a lot of people who've written a lot of things about this. There are valid uses for those terms and I am using them validly. The whole 'But isn't racist too harsh a word?' thing is ridiculous and I'm not going to mollycoddle people who are being oppressive. It defeats the point. I'm not here to make people feel good about themselves when they **** up. I really don't appreciate being told how to do my own advocacy as a more general point either and I don't need your advice.
Unfortunately it's the avoidance to call a spade a spade in many cases that's made it more difficult for certain causes to move forward. Because people get so entrenched in the idea of cartoon sexism, racism or homophobia they think they're safe and not part of the problem.
I offered to bring an actual Romani person into the thread and it looks like nobody cared, so I don't know what else you want me to do. Some of us are fed up of having this argument over and over and you can't expect us to be nice to people who are pushing oppressive arguments. I have good reason to have a chip on my shoulder, Romani people possibly even more so. It's problematic for more privileged people to judge how we deal with our oppression.
Please read some Ally 101s or whatever
http://borderhouseblog.com/?page_id=54
also:
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
I have a limited capacity to educate people. I'm calling out racism but that doesn't mean I have the ability to give people the talking to they need. At the same time that doesn't mean I'm going to be silent either. I provided people with resources and they didn't bother reading them. That's really not my fault, and it gets very victim blamey to throw it back on me. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 03:57:07
After doing some research, I would like to throw in Fenmarel Mestarine (a god I had never heard of before!). He is a paranoid elven deity whose portfolio includes outcasts and scapegoats. He teaches self sufficiency and shuns civilization (his main worshippers are wild elves).
He seems like a perfect god for the nomadic society being discussed, though I really like all the choices presented thus far. I think Shaundakul, Selune, and some others mentioned would make a great pantheon for nomads. I see Lurue as an excellent choice too, because she's all about adventure and marching to the beat of your own drum. We don't have to limit these folks to worshipping gods though. Being in touch with nature, I would imagine that they worship many primal spirits and archfey as well. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 03:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Nobody read the adventure in Dragon #93 then.
-- George Krashos
Sadly, no. My Realmslore access is limited to what I find here, and on Amazon/Ebay. I've got a lot of 2E and all of the 3E sourcebooks, but I've only half a dozen Dragon/Dungeon magazines and those are all in the hundreds.
I don't remember that adventure being Realms-specific. I do remember enjoying its uniqueness, however. It had "build your own caravans" at the end that I botched as a kid (and have ruined my copy of the mag :-( ) |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 03:01:35
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
... which is in of itself racist. Thus my problem. You can't censor criticism of racism but allow the racist. This will be my last word on it until I get a friend to comment on it. Keep in mind when I do if you shut down a Roma person's ability to comment on this it will look very very racist. No amount of your own research can trump that and it shouldn't be up to us to determine how long a discussion with regards racism and misrepresentation of Romani people should go on.
Having debated with you on a topic before, and having witnessed your contributions to other threads, I can honestly say that you're smart and make some noteworthy points. But you approach people with a chip on your shoulder, and you sometimes sound hostile from the onset of a discussion. You're always encouraging others to examine issues from a different perspective, and to be aware of how seemingly harmless words can negatively affect people. That's admirable, but you should also be aware that your words sometimes hurt others more than you intend.
Calling people racists and sexists and homophobes is unproductive. You miss valuable opportunities to educate people, and win them over to your side, when you scold them like children. I promise you that very few people will ever respond well to that. Instead, they will respond defensively, and in turn you will use their defensive response as evidence that you're being persecuted. If you treat people like they are out to get you, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:34:03
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Nobody read the adventure in Dragon #93 then.
-- George Krashos
Sadly, no. My Realmslore access is limited to what I find here, and on Amazon/Ebay. I've got a lot of 2E and all of the 3E sourcebooks, but I've only half a dozen Dragon/Dungeon magazines and those are all in the hundreds. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:29:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Ok I'm currently building a character for my wife. She's playing a bard who also happens to be a 'gypsy' type character. So, I'm wondering who would make the best gypsy-ish deity?
A few generalizations about gypsy culture:
1. They do not recognize the existence of private property (they believe the fruit of the land belongs to all).
2. For the most part they do not seek wealth for its own sake, only for its practical value.
3. They are free-thinkers and believes in personal freedom.
4. They usually revere nature.
5. They may be more inclined to worship concepts moreso than actual deities.
6. They are extremely loyal, but their loyalty is hard to earn.
7. Possession=ownership.
8. Rigid beliefs/customs are foolish, better to be free and 'be yourself' they say.
Most of this comes from the 2e Complete Bard's Handbook and I consider it a decent enough treatise on the gypsy culture (at least as far as DnD goes).
With the above generalizations I am thinking any number of gods may work for them. Mask, Tymora, any nature deity, Deneir or Milil (as music deities) and a number of Seldarine could work as well. The closest 'ideal' I've come across is Olidammara from Oerth/Greyhawk (CN deity of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor and trickery). I may simply port him over to the Realms but...
But, if you had a single Realmsian 'patron' deity for gypsies, who would it be?
Just to give you one out of the box thinking mind you, how about Sharess.
With what you have listed above it seems an almost perfect fit.
John |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:29:10
Nobody read the adventure in Dragon #93 then.
-- George Krashos |
| Delwa |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:20:10
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Apparently I'm a racist too...so be it.
As for a primary God of Gypsy-like folk in the Forgotten Realms, it could be that each group has a inclination toward different gods. There may be evil groups, good groups and even simply groups that are just trying to get by.
I still propose that Shaundakul would be a god exceedingly interested in the doings and welfare of a group like this...and while not their true patron, he would likely put heavy interest in their travels.
Shaundakul was one of the first ones that came to mind, but he was swiftly followed by others. The more I think about it, the more I see such a culture as The Arcanamach originally described as creating their own Pantheon by cherry-picking deities that fit their own culture, perhaps with Shaundakul as the primary patron.
If I'm a culture "more inclined to worship a concept moreso than actual deities" the pantheon might be worshipped as a side note. I can see a gypsy woman explaining to an outsider who's trying to learn their culture, that their pantheon is merely a manifestation of their ideals. Kind of like Drizzt saying that he follows Mielikki because he already had the ideals of Mielikki in his heart, not because he is conforming his beliefs to what Mielikki believes. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 02:10:24
Apparently I'm a racist too...so be it.
As for a primary God of Gypsy-like folk in the Forgotten Realms, it could be that each group has a inclination toward different gods. There may be evil groups, good groups and even simply groups that are just trying to get by.
I still propose that Shaundakul would be a god exceedingly interested in the doings and welfare of a group like this...and while not their true patron, he would likely put heavy interest in their travels. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 16 Sep 2014 : 00:19:59
Then I will suck it up. I'm officially a racist. Now drop the point and get back to the original topic. Thanks |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:56:01
... which is in of itself racist. Thus my problem. You can't censor criticism of racism but allow the racist. This will be my last word on it until I get a friend to comment on it. Keep in mind when I do if you shut down a Roma person's ability to comment on this it will look very very racist. No amount of your own research can trump that and it shouldn't be up to us to determine how long a discussion with regards racism and misrepresentation of Romani people should go on. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:34:57
I rather think the discussion of racism has gone on more than long enough. I have done my own research on the topic, and while I do see that some consider it racist, I also see that it is used in law, in dictionaries, and even by some Romani peoples.
I think we've discussed that particular topic well enough, and that we should get pack to the original point of this discussion. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:24:23
quote:
Asmodeus lovingly accepts gypsy-folk, I hear. Already I can imagine gypsy caravans concealing hungry devils within their curtained circus wagons. An imp familiar riding every shoulder. Jugglers and acrobats playing with handfuls of Hellfire. The fangs of old gypsy oracles dripping fate across bloodsmeared tarot decks. Young children eagerly charmed away in the night by cackling old were-gypsy witches. Always obscured by a reeking fog of brimstone, always the fog, within which is heard growling wolves and scritching ravens and - perhaps - the muffled stumblings of zombies and ghouls.
like just reminding you that you posted this. if you read anything written by romani people you know they have often been persecuted with imagery like this. having villains in your campaign, which will no doubt be slaughtered, of diabolic gypsies echoes far too much of the real life genocide of a demonised group. it's messed up and racist and not wanting to learn only makes it worse. it's not about opinions in the real world, it's about history and lived experiences. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:22:55
Where are these insults, accusations? And why is it that people who point out problematic attitudes are "trolls"?
It's not a matter of opinion. The discourse here is racist. I am calling that out. I'm blatantly more educated than you on the subject too. Again, if you think I'm such a troll - you won't object to me bringing in a Romani person to speak their piece? Or will they be a "troll" too for not being a white westerner? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 23:04:19
Roseweave, I have already said all I believe needs to be said about my opinion of D&D gypsies. You are entitled to your own opinion. I shant respond to your insults, accusations, antagonism, and outright trolling any longer - it does not contribute anything productive to this scroll. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 21:38:28
It doesn't matter. The word gypsy belongs to the Romani, so it's up to them whether how we use it is respectful or not. In most cases it's not. I am Irish, I live in Cork and I know of Irish travellers but Gypsy was originally used(and is "accurately") used to describe the Romani people due to the mistaken notion they came from Egypt.
I'm going to link one of my friends to this thread. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 20:30:13
Here is the best way I can relate to you why the word "gipsy" isn't a racial slur...and doesn't truly apply to just Romany individuals.
For those who live in Ireland or have deep connections there (like I do...right up to President Mary McAleese) the term "Tinker" is an insult...but to those in the United States it isn't; though I suppose some of us might have to stop calling Krynnish Gnomes "Tinker Gnomes". (sarcasm intended)
Racism IS in context and intent...not in the word itself.
quote:
Use in English law:
Gipsy has several developing and overlapping meanings under English Law. Under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960, 'gipsies' are defined as "persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such." This definition includes such groups as New Age Travellers, as well as Irish Travellers and Romany.
Gipsies of Romany origins have been a recognised ethnic group for the purposes of Race Relations Act 1976 since Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton 1989 and Irish Travellers in England and Wales since O'Leary v Allied Domecq 2000 (having already gained recognition in Northern Ireland in 1997).
According to some, I guess Technogypsie would be a slur too? Maybe folk should stop calling little kids "little tinker" too eh?
Words have power...but not in and of the presence of the word; but in the use and meaning of the words when put together.
Gypsies in fantasy have both good and bad reputations. They are the "good guys" in Ravenloft, the "bad guys" in some movies and the heroes in others. It is an entirely generic word in modern American society that doesn't carry connotations of insult or malice.
In places where it is still an insult, I can understand...but the entire world does not hold it as such...not by a far shot. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 17:27:41
Folks... figured I'd throw my two coppers here (hopefully in the interests of civility). I'm about as much or more afraid (yes, that's the word) of political correctness as most people. Political correctness is, strictly speaking, language used as a means of controlling ideas, which is very harmful to freedom.
But there's a difference between being silenced or called to court for a supposed ethnic slur (or even a well-recognised offensive one) and simply being asked to refrain from using such as much as possible. I'm very much not informed about the situation of Romani people, but I understand they are quite wary of stereotypes made about them and have some very sensible reasons to be.
Whatever you do mean when using "gypsy-like" or any such word in a public medium, you just have to understand lots of people might be taking that meaning very differently, regardless of what you actually mean. I don't think you're evil or even technically wrong to use the words, but it's a matter of civility and good-neighbour thinking to stop using them when people feel offended.
I really wish we could use words without evoking such powerful sentiments from people. I mean, if I say I have liberal political/economic leanings in Brazil, lots of people will think I'm fascist. Whereas in the US lots of them would probably think I'm a nanny-state social-democrat. It makes me uncomfortable, but I can't go around and tell people what they ought to understand by what I say, it's up to me to explain myself more clearly.
Compounded to this problem, we're on a privately owned site where the owners discourage discussions regarding specific real-world issues, so that's another reason to be extra careful when using such words. Again, it's not that I think it's in principle morally wrong, but it's just the way it is. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 15:48:48
quote:
Originally posted by Alenis
Eldath if they're generally pacifistic(they don't necessarily have to be). I also think an interesting view would be for Shaundakul; he used to be a fairly potent deity during the time of Myth Drannor. Perhaps this would be a resurgence of his worship.
Why not have a hodgepodge of a pantheon? I think that's been suggested. If these people travel the world, they probably have a mix of gods that fit their culture. Maybe they picked up Selune from one place, Eldath from another. It could even have been so long ago there could be a story behind it. For instance, Eldath got added after a time of persecution when a Ghandi-type hero rose up and led them to a new place and they were given shelter by some Eldath-worshipping Druids. It might be a story only the oldest and wisest know, but it could make for an interesting possibility. |
| Roseweave |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 15:27:24
quote:
Thats just part of what fantasy is all about,
No it isn't. you can still take influence from other cultures without being racist.
Again, as is, the gurs aren't overly problematic, it's the ideas and comments in this thread.
quote:
If the common D&D adaptation of gypsies is too offensive for your tastes then simply change them.
Again - my problem is with the attitude of people in this thread. Which are racist. The line of discussion in this thread is racist.
quote:
By all the unholy hells! Seriously...must we bring real world into the Forgotten Realms so completely that people have their feelings hurt.
Gypsies are fun...they are awesome. Greyhawk had barge going gypsy folk...my own World of Ark has gypsy type folk.
Gypsy is a real world term with real world connotations. It's also, generally, an ethnic slur. If you don't want to bring the real world into it, don't use it. The fact is that many of our fantasy ideas are founded in real world ones.
quote:
The INTENT of the use of a word is the insult...not the damnable word itself. My family came to the U.S. as indentured Irish servants...otherwise known as debt-slaves. Would I be offended and get all butt-hurt if someone was talking about indentured slaves in the Forgotten Realms? NO.
Just chill.
No. Racism is racism. Just because some issue doesn't bother you doesn't mean others shouldn't be bothered too. What happened to your family is in the past. Whereas Romani people are not a historical people - they have to live in a world that projects a false image of them.
|
| Alenis |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 08:20:29
Eldath if they're generally pacifistic(they don't necessarily have to be). I also think an interesting view would be for Shaundakul; he used to be a fairly potent deity during the time of Myth Drannor. Perhaps this would be a resurgence of his worship. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 03:28:50
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Eldath.
-- George Krashos
That would be my thinking as well.
I'm also partial to the idea of Selune being a deity who counts gypsies among her faithful... if only because she has the tendency to embrace wanderers and roamers. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 01:26:50
Eldath.
-- George Krashos |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 00:44:24
By all the unholy hells! Seriously...must we bring real world into the Forgotten Realms so completely that people have their feelings hurt.
Gypsies are fun...they are awesome. Greyhawk had barge going gypsy folk...my own World of Ark has gypsy type folk.
The INTENT of the use of a word is the insult...not the damnable word itself. My family came to the U.S. as indentured Irish servants...otherwise known as debt-slaves. Would I be offended and get all butt-hurt if someone was talking about indentured slaves in the Forgotten Realms? NO.
Just chill. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 23:16:32
The general sensitivity of mankind to virtually anything is a huge pet peeve of mine but it advances the point of this thread not one bit. This is my last post in regard to the topic with apologies to The Arcanamach. Ill comment on the topic no further, because frankly, politics stink.
My vote goes for using a plethora of gods, all invoked for different reasons, including Milil, Llira and yes, even Asmodeus. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Sep 2014 : 22:57:07
D&D and the Realms are a pastiche of (our) social stereocasting. There are generic Arab and Indian cultures, generic Central/South American cultures, generic Iberian and Turkish and Roman and British and Germanic and Viking and Scandinavian/Viking cultures, and many more. Theres even generic Robin Hood and Merlin figures, of sorts.
The basis of each of these captures some of the (to us) exotic flavour behind the originals. Even if they are unwholesome, unflattering, woefully inaccurate depictions of real-world populations.
Thats just part of what fantasy is all about, combining idealized forms of what we know with imagination and magic. The trope is not specific to D&D but derives from our own nationalistic indoctrinations.
I am a member of an often misunderstood and historically persecuted group, as well, one which happens to also be portrayed in a superficial and sometimes insulting fashion within Realmslore. But campaigning against the symptoms accomplishes nothing productive, I can enjoy the Realms for what they are without taking things personally or feeling compelled to champion mighty causes which change fundamental social outlooks.
If the common D&D adaptation of gypsies is too offensive for your tastes then simply change them. Or exclude them. Or play a different game. But attempting to change everybody else (and their gaming preferences) will involve a lot more angry wind than Candlekeeps Moderators will choose to tolerate. |
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