| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 04:12:09
Forgotten Realms Panel 1 & 2 (GenCon 2014)
This is a recording of the Storytelling in the Realms panel hosted by Wizards of the Coast at GenCon 2014. This panel features Mike Mearls (Senior Manager of R&D for WotC), Jim Zub (author of new D&D comic), Erin M. Evans (Forgotten Realms Author), R.A. Salvatore (Forgotten Realms Author), and Ed Greenwood (Forgotten Realms creator).
http://www.thetomeshow.com/e/forgotten-realms-panel-1-gencon-2014/
http://www.thetomeshow.com/e/forgotten-realms-panel-2-gencon-2014/ |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 18:56:53
quote:
Well the official stance is all about freedom. She doesnt care where or who. They could worship her on the moon for all she cared.
The important bit is the drow have the freedom to choose.
Yeah, freedom is what E and V have in common among their ideals. There's also the drow forging their way in the world, that could be another strong point of the ML, unless you prefer drow to stay only underground.
quote:
And of course all gods want to be worshipped first and foremost (if you arent worshipped you are dead).
Not entirely true. People can worship multiple gods, as long as one is among those, he/she/it gets ''food''. There's no need to ''reign supreme'', for example I really doubt that Eilistraee would want that (there's a bit in EC's Evermeet where after the appearence of the Dark Dancer to Sharlario and his son, they offer to convert from Sehanine's service into hers, but she simply tells them that there's no need to).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And i always find a bit of delicious irony in story works wonders. Eilistraee spent her entire life trying to free herself and the drow from her mother's shadow. Wouldnt it be wonderful in the end if she succeeded and became just as twisted and evil as Lolth herself.
I put the Masked Lady as CN, emphasising freedom. But if i played the story through to completion she would be CE and the drow would have the freedom to choose whatever they wanted, as long as they chose her.
Eh, not my cup of tea tbh. It would just ruin her charater IMO, unless you like fallen heroes. I do sometimes, but with Eilistraee it wouldn't work for me. One of the reasons I like her is her dreamer/idealist side that shines and stands out in the ''darkness'' that afflicts her people. I would still like her if she started to see the need to change her approach a bit and decided to lean more towards a ''the goal justifies the means'' kind of MO (like one of those scenes when a character goes through something that opens her eyes, and she is like ''reborn'' anew, tempered, changing part of herself, as it happened with the ML), but I don't see her becoming like her mother.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 16:10:25
Well the official stance is all about freedom. She doesnt care where or who. They could worship her on the moon for all she cared.
The important bit is the drow have the freedom to choose.
And of course all gods want to be worshipped first and foremost (if you arent worshipped you are dead).
Plus Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena all have many reasons to hate Lolth, as do the rest of the drow.
And i always find a bit of delicious irony in story works wonders. Eilistraee spent her entire life trying to free herself and the drow from her mother's shadow. Wouldnt it be wonderful in the end if she succeeded and became just as twisted and evil as Lolth herself.
I put the Masked Lady as CN, emphasising freedom. But if i played the story through to completion she would be CE and the drow would have the freedom to choose whatever they wanted, as long as they chose her. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:51:09
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I wouldnt say i completely remade the concept of the Masked Lady.
I havent gone into who won the fight (E or V) because in the end it doesnt matter who won. No god survives merging with another with their personality intact, and in order to combat Lolth a merger would have to take place.
I'm pretty sure that an alliance would work too, as their followers base would merge as it happened with the ML. Anyway I'm of the opinion that both gods somehow survive in the merging, keeping traits of both.
Well, it's a matter of PoV, I guess.
quote:
So the Masked Lady is born of a unison between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. She no longer cares about goodness, or redemption, or hiding in the shadows. She wants to be the reigning drow deity and she wants revenge on lolth.
Why not? If she is a merge between E&V, then she would keep what they have in common: fighting so that the drow can be free to choose their path and forge their own place in the surface world, and in order to stop the inner conflicts that waste so many dark elven lives for nothing. So she can lead any drow who wants that -really- encouraging people who try to achieve that through redemption, but not dismissing the ones who want to use more subtle methods either. Tbh the goal of revenge and being the supreme drow deity that you propose sounds very similar to Lolth (even tho your ML still doesn't care about female supremacy and gives every worshipper the same ''weight'').
Ofc just my 2 cents, it's your campaign and I'm not here to criticize your choices.
quote:
I hate one dimensional lore. Its very boring and unimaginative. The stuff Ed writes is always so multi-faceted so i try to copy that. The latest news on the drow just makes me dislike 5E as much as 4E
Agreed. E&V or the ML should be back- However there are no actual news on drow yet, so I would wait before deciding.
Ed said that it's highly likely that we havent's seen the last of Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun apparently gets a chosen (even if not explicilty mentioned), after all. Maybe... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:36:15
I wouldnt say i completely remade the concept of the Masked Lady.
I havent gone into who won the fight (E or V) because in the end it doesnt matter who won. No god survives merging with another with their personality intact, and in order to combat Lolth a merger would have to take place.
So the Masked Lady is born of a unison between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. She no longer cares about goodness, or redemption, or hiding in the shadows. She wants to be the reigning drow deity and she wants revenge on lolth.
Also since Lolth was silent, the Masked Lady decided to answer the prayers of Zinzerena's faithful. The assassins of Zinzerena decided the Masked Lady was a much better fit than Lolth (they knew Zinzerena was killed but now they view the Masked Lady as Zinzerena reborn).
Thats three worshipper bases contributing to the power of the Masked Lady who now has power of male drow, outcast drow, surface drow, assassins, and a few others.
She's definitely in the intermediate power range and since she has no qualms about having drow of any gender or alignment worship her (unlike Vhaeraun or Eilistraee, she is getting the worship of large numbers of drow unhappy with lolth's rule.
The common drow on the street, the unhappy minor daughter of a drow house, the soldier, the slaves, the wizards. If they hate lolth, they turn to the Masked Lady, and lets face it, Lolth has done much to be hated.
At least thats the way im going with the masked lady.
I hate one dimensional lore. Its very boring and unimaginative. The stuff Ed writes is always so multi-faceted so i try to copy that. The latest news on the drow just makes me dislike 5E as much as 4E |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by rapunzel77
I'm not sure if Eilistraee is back. I know they said in the Forgotten Realms panel last year that all the gods/goddesses are back but it sounds like from what's being said about the 5th edition player's handbook, etc that she is not mentioned anywhere nor her followers so they probably aren't going to do anything with her which is unfortunate.
PHB deities list is far from being complete. For comparison, all the racial pantheons are missing. We can just hope and wait for the 5e FRCG (when it will come) or -maybe- some novel/adventure. However it looks like almost every god is back (heck even Ibrandul gets mentions), to single out two unique and defining deities like E&V would really be a waste and a ''screw you'' to their fans (especially considering that a project about their return and lore written for it has already been thrown away once, two years ago). |
| rapunzel77 |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 15:07:26
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
But the Masked Lady is (a changed) Eilistraee (or a merge between brother and sister, depends on how you look at it, unless you completely remade her concept).
An alliance between E and V would have the tools to actually stop Lolth, if they decided to team up (some speculated that the ML was the result of that).
quote:
It would be an interesting change if Drizzt did start caring for the rest of his people by adopting some of Eilistraee's tenets but that is probably VERY unlikely.
Maybe, but even then why not bring back Eilistraee?
I'm not sure if Eilistraee is back. I know they said in the Forgotten Realms panel last year that all the gods/goddesses are back but it sounds like from what's being said about the 5th edition player's handbook, etc that she is not mentioned anywhere nor her followers so they probably aren't going to do anything with her which is unfortunate. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 22:16:05
But the Masked Lady is (a changed) Eilistraee (or a merge between brother and sister, depends on how you look at it, unless you completely remade her concept).
An alliance between E and V would have the tools to actually stop Lolth, if they decided to team up (some speculated that the ML was the result of that).
quote:
It would be an interesting change if Drizzt did start caring for the rest of his people by adopting some of Eilistraee's tenets but that is probably VERY unlikely.
Maybe, but even then why not bring back Eilistraee? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 22:03:57
Well Eilistraee's dead in my campaign. The Masked Lady is alive and she is a kickass intermediate goddess able to actually resist Lolth rather than hide in the shadows like E+V did.
I'm going to move towards a holy war between Lolth and the Masked Lady as they fight for worshippers. Lolth wants female supremacy and the status quo whereas the Masked Lady doesn't care as long as they are drow, they can be good, evil, male, female, drider, half drow, anything drow.
Of course im still pre spellplague
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| rapunzel77 |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 21:57:05
I love Drizzt but there are other possibly good drow out there and it would be nice to have some stories with them. It would be an interesting change if Drizzt did start caring for the rest of his people by adopting some of Eilistraee's tenets but that is probably VERY unlikely. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 18:19:09
quote:
Eilistraee followers would have been a better choice than Drizzt IMHO.
Ikr, it's part of what they fight for. But -as i said- to me it's almost like WotC doesn't care to acknowledge Eilistraee's existence, or wants to replace her with Drizzt, -something that he really can't do as a character, having a deeply different concept in the niche of ''good'' drow-. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 17:57:29
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Idk, especially since he (AFAIK) doesn't really care about encouraging other drow to choose a different path, which is what Eilistraee does. It would have made way more sense if they mentioned her, since they really wanted to give a ''model'' (this is the word used in the book IIRC), but hey: both she and her brother don't seem to exist beyond having been defeated by Lolth in WotC's mind...
Eilistraee followers would have been a better choice than Drizzt IMHO. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 17:12:30
The Codex of Salvatore is a set of tomes much loved by the teenage drow of Menzoberranzan.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Btw, in the 5e PHB it is said that drow who seek to escape from their society look up to Drizzt as inspiration. Is having only a bunch of exiles trying to escape really preferable to also have a (albeit small) faction of people who try to actually change something for their race (E's followers)?
I'm intrigued as to how, in game, a drow of the Underdark would know anything of Drizzt and how he could prove to be an "inspiration" to anyone living there. Maybe they have the 'monsternet' in Faerun and they just Boogle him.
-- George Krashos
|
| Arcanus |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 14:30:19
Two things stood out for me after hearing both panels.
1. The term unreliable narrator was used far too much. From a gaming point of view i can see where it makes sense, the bad guy was thought to have been killed but was he? etc. Good for plot hooks for home games. I don't play and only read the novels so I hope that its not a case of every major bad guy might not be dead. It makes me think whats the point of the story if they just use the unreliable narrator excuse to bring them back at some future date. Ed even implied that telamont might not be gone forever.
Sometimes dead should mean dead!
2. Bob talked about getting the old realms feeling back (yay!) and how he wants the good guys to win. Its always been a bugbear of mine that wotc and tsr never found a balance between good guys and bad guys winning. Everything up to 4e was the typical fantasy good beats bad. 4e was darker and bad guys did better but were ultimately defeated.
Surely a more realistic (ha!) take on the 5e realms would be more welcome. I sometimes want the bad guys to win, I just wish they were given a fair chance to do so. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 09:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I didn't list Elis because I was only listing those with evil influence. The Drizzt influence has really gotten out of hand. This is what happens when something becomes a cash cow. Wizards believes they need to incorporate Drizzt more in order to sell more novels. Reminds me of the last Superman movie and the constant frequency of the ads and how obvious it was. I'm sorry but the Realms are massive and since TV and the Internet don't exist, not everyone is going to be aware of his celebrity status. I have this sinking feeling they are going to run it into the ground, hell even the new PHB uses a picture of Drizzt to represent elves in general.
Yeah, as I stated before, I didn't like what they said about Drizzt as a model for most ''exception to the rule'' drow too. It just doesn't make much sense, especially with the presence of Eilistraee and with how Drizzt really doesn't care to do what her followers do. It also is my impression -and fear- that they are going to keep ignoring the Dark Maiden and any other kind of independent drow, because they would make Drizzt look less of a ''special snowflake'' in their readers' eyes, which would just be stupid and a total waste.
Anyway, my point is that Eilistraee's followers, or ''unlinked'' goodly dark elves, are indeed a valid part of the FR and should be included in the new iteration of the setting, but as a niche. The fact that some people at WotC thought it was a good idea to focus on them in the past doesn't diminish their value, and doesn't mean that it is right to remove them just to shift the focus. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 08:00:23
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Let's not forget that even drow who don't worship Lolth still may worship Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar (probably spelled it wrong), or even no deity at all and still be evil. The underdark is a dangerous place and so are the cities. They are full of vicious predators who would kill you if given the chance. The reputation of the evil drow have been around for a very very long time and I believe that would still rule over the few exceptions to the rule drow.
Of course the ''good'' drow should be a narrow minority (and their reputation overshadowed by the actions of the rest of their kin), and -even if the focus on them in the past may have led some people to think the contrary- they have always been. You named Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and ''godless'' drow, but really, why exclude Eilistraee from the picture? I've already talked a lot about this in other topics so I won't repeat myself, but she is not an excuse for Drizzt clones character (people who play them don't need an excuse, btw), far from it. Her theme and goal are drastically different from that and her concept unique, flavorful and neatly defined. Furthermore she is part of Ed's original vision of the world (she was in his campaign even before TSR's request) and is iconic to the FR drow. She totally deserves to be in the 5e era, together with Vhaeraun.
Btw, in the 5e PHB it is said that drow who seek to escape from their society look up to Drizzt as inspiration. Is having only a bunch of exiles trying to escape really preferable to also have a (albeit small) faction of people who try to actually change something for their race (E's followers)?
I didn't list Elis because I was only listing those with evil influence. The Drizzt influence has really gotten out of hand. This is what happens when something becomes a cash cow. Wizards believes they need to incorporate Drizzt more in order to sell more novels. Reminds me of the last Superman movie and the constant frequency of the ads and how obvious it was. I'm sorry but the Realms are massive and since TV and the Internet don't exist, not everyone is going to be aware of his celebrity status. I have this sinking feeling they are going to run it into the ground, hell even the new PHB uses a picture of Drizzt to represent elves in general. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 02:34:37
Idk, especially since he (AFAIK) doesn't really care about encouraging other drow to choose a different path, which is what Eilistraee does. It would have made way more sense if they mentioned her, since they really wanted to give a ''model'' (this is the word used in the book IIRC), but hey: both she and her brother don't seem to exist beyond having been defeated by Lolth in WotC's mind... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 02:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Btw, in the 5e PHB it is said that drow who seek to escape from their society look up to Drizzt as inspiration. Is having only a bunch of exiles trying to escape really preferable to also have a (albeit small) faction of people who try to actually change something for their race (E's followers)?
I'm intrigued as to how, in game, a drow of the Underdark would know anything of Drizzt and how he could prove to be an "inspiration" to anyone living there. Maybe they have the 'monsternet' in Faerun and they just Boogle him.
-- George Krashos |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 01:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Let's not forget that even drow who don't worship Lolth still may worship Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar (probably spelled it wrong), or even no deity at all and still be evil. The underdark is a dangerous place and so are the cities. They are full of vicious predators who would kill you if given the chance. The reputation of the evil drow have been around for a very very long time and I believe that would still rule over the few exceptions to the rule drow.
Of course the ''good'' drow should be a narrow minority (and their reputation overshadowed by the actions of the rest of their kin), and -even if the focus on them in the past may have led some people to think the contrary- they have always been. You named Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and ''godless'' drow, but really, why exclude Eilistraee from the picture? I've already talked a lot about this in other topics so I won't repeat myself, but she is not an excuse for Drizzt clones character (people who play them don't need an excuse, btw), far from it. Her theme and goal are drastically different from that and her concept unique, flavorful and neatly defined. Furthermore she is part of Ed's original vision of the world (she was in his campaign even before TSR's request) and is iconic to the FR drow. She totally deserves to be in the 5e era, together with Vhaeraun.
Btw, in the 5e PHB it is said that drow who seek to escape from their society look up to Drizzt as inspiration. Is having only a bunch of exiles trying to escape really preferable to also have a (albeit small) faction of people who try to actually change something for their race (E's followers)? |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 00:16:19
Let's not forget that even drow who don't worship Lolth still may worship Vhaeraun, Ghaunadar (probably spelled it wrong), or even no deity at all and still be evil. The underdark is a dangerous place and so are the cities. They are full of vicious predators who would kill you if given the chance. The reputation of the evil drow have been around for a very very long time and I believe that would still rule over the few exceptions to the rule drow. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 17:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by rapunzel77
He can't be the ONLY one out there. That just wouldn't make much sense.
Yes, that is just stupid. Even having like only 20 good drow out there would be stupid, especially after millennia of ideas spreading, people choosing different ways and so on. Sure different drow should be the narrow minority, they should be relatively unknown, treated with suspicion, opposed/hunted/feared/whatever anyway because of the reputation of their race, but you can't seriously say that after all the stuff that has happened, only Drizzt and a handful of dark elves have made different choices.
I'll paste what I wrote in another thread
On a side note, the stories I wish for are not necessarily Drizzt-like, more something along the lines of conventionally evil races being given some depth, ability to grow, change and evolve in lore featuring them, even as villains (which is not possible if you say 'they are innately X because god/magic/sheaningans period').
Personally, more Drizzt's is not really the example of what I'd like to see. Sure, he can be an interesting character, but as I've already said, adding 1 super-dude over 10000000 doesn't add much variety to a setting, even more so if this super-dude decides to go 'screw my people' mode. Variations like Many Arrows, Eilistraeens/Vhaerunites bring concrete depth and are way more 'realistic' -so to speak- than having just 1 over so many: ideas are born someway, they spread, some people see that they lead to a better life, they embrace and support it, while others (a lot more others, considering the situation of races like orcs and drow) don't. The ones who do could band together, work/fight to achieve and build something for them or/and their race (which is the battle that E&V fight and makes them different from the drow who choose to simply stay away from their people). |
| rapunzel77 |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 16:58:18
If one wanted to have a combat heavy campaign that involved killing monsters then I suppose it would be fine to have the Drow be evil all the time. However, it has been established in some of the books that they do have a conscience and free will. Granted, many choose to do evil because they are fanatically devoted (mostly out of fear and lust for power/higher station) to Lolth. It is more complex and nuanced to have a variety of characters, some who do exhibit compassion/love/honesty, etc in addition to the many who are going to play the pragmatic game. Even in the most evil of societies, there are good people. Why not extend that to fantasy? To the Drow? They are still elves although their society puts them in the "monster" category. At least from the novel/lore part of the campaign, it makes more sense for there to be variety, including good characters (in addition to Drizzt). He can't be the ONLY one out there. That just wouldn't make much sense. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 16:49:59
I vote foe a balance. We have the evil Lolthites, but we also have the Eilistraeens, Vhaeraunites (I know V is evil, but I have always had a fondness for him), and other "rebels". I like drow, as evil and as good. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 11:36:38
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
It's not fun when products are written like novels and every drow you come across happens to be that rare drow that's good.
Having variety among drow obviously doesn't imply that. Having Eilistraee back wouldn't lead to that unless WotC wanted to overplay her and her followers.
On the other hand, a race who is fully one-note and ''hurr durr we r ebil and we kill each other cuz powah'' is equally stupid as having all drow being rebellious.
|
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 11:23:56
It's not fun when products are written like novels and every drow you come across happens to be that rare drow that's good. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 11:22:23
I pray to God that drow don't become more common on the surface. I want to go back to drow being feared and everyone not knowing a good drow named Drizzt exists. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 21:06:55
I truly hope so.
Forging the Realms articles are very good (and include lore about both past and present), but I was talking about advancement of plots left hanging in the previous eras, books and so on. They said that they are not opposed to it in principle, but there's a long way from that to being committed to releasing support for previous eras.
If they can handle 1 project at time with their resources, I guess that they'll dedicate those to detail the 5e FR, with some reference/hint to the past here and there. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 20:18:08
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's unclear to me how this conclusion can be drawn from a module or two... That's literally all we have for the 5E Realms, so I don't see how we can assume that it means the promised support for all editions won't be forthcoming.
If they don't have the resources to handle more than 1 book/project at time, I really doubt that we'll see significant new lore about older eras. My thought is that the ''all editions'' support will likely come in the form of modules that can be used with any period of the FR with little modification (like the ones they're releasing in the future).
I don't see how we can conclude that one team is incapable of generating lore for older eras as well as lore for new eras... Rich Baker turned out a lot of Realmslore, including Lost Empires of Faerūn. And look how much Ed has given us, about the past and present of the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 20:05:37
quote:
Originally posted by Nilonim
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In the second, there's a clarification of the prospect for fiction set before the current timeline: they aren't against it in principle, but for a while the slots are taken up by books tying into Tyranny of Dragons and its successors.
My Polish friends are already complaining that the all periods support seems to have gotten the axe and that we're back to RSE-RSE-more RSE.
It's unclear to me how this conclusion can be drawn from a module or two... That's literally all we have for the 5E Realms, so I don't see how we can assume that it means the promised support for all editions won't be forthcoming.
Maybe the lack of any other product other the adventure modules
But we know a campaign book is forthcoming. One cannot seriously expect a module to support multiple eras. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 19:01:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's unclear to me how this conclusion can be drawn from a module or two... That's literally all we have for the 5E Realms, so I don't see how we can assume that it means the promised support for all editions won't be forthcoming.
If they don't have the resources to handle more than 1 book/project at time, I really doubt that we'll see significant new lore about older eras. My thought is that the ''all editions'' support will likely come in the form of modules that can be used with any period of the FR with little modification (like the ones they're releasing in the future). |
| Nilonim |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 18:27:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In the second, there's a clarification of the prospect for fiction set before the current timeline: they aren't against it in principle, but for a while the slots are taken up by books tying into Tyranny of Dragons and its successors.
My Polish friends are already complaining that the all periods support seems to have gotten the axe and that we're back to RSE-RSE-more RSE.
It's unclear to me how this conclusion can be drawn from a module or two... That's literally all we have for the 5E Realms, so I don't see how we can assume that it means the promised support for all editions won't be forthcoming.
Maybe the lack of any other product other the adventure modules |
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