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T O P I C    R E V I E W
redking Posted - 10 Jul 2014 : 05:21:13
This is a topic for mature people. If you can't discuss a topic without demanding a banning of others due to being thin skinned, stop reading now.

-------------------

The previous thread got me thinking about FR religions, and homosexuality in the realms.

I try to imagine a fantasy setting as realistic according to its own logic, and as free as internal contradictions as possible. I also like to think that the fantasy setting is diverse in terms of thought, ideologies and practice. I hate to think that the realms is going to be homogenized (excuse the pun) in the sense that there is a company fiat that says the entire realms is tolerant of any lifestyle just because that is the way there are people that want that in the real world. That reminds me of the 1980s hysteria about satanic abuse and the affect it had on our game.

In the forgotten realms why would a fertility god endorse homosexuality? It would seem to be internally inconsistent as being gay makes you five times less fertile than the average person (real world research and hopefully self evident to people here anyway). In that case wouldn't a fertility god be homo-averse (replacing the problematic word 'homophobic' ) ?

By the same token a god of sensuality or new experiences may be homophilic.

Imagine the god of tyranny and inequality. A god like this could possibly be neither home-averse nor homophilic. Instead this god may endorse only certain types of homosexual relationships. For example this god may permit his followers to penetrate, but not be penetrated, based on the tenets of the religion of inequality. (on a side note this is the common practice in many Muslim countries. Only the man penetrated is deemed to be gay and at fault)

Likewise a god of domination or torture may only permit any kind sexuality within the context of painful or dominating sex, and outside that clergy (and perhaps some followers) may be completely chaste.

What would a god of war think? It would depend on how homosexuals are in the battlefield. If homosexuals turn out to be good soldiers, or homosexual battlefield romances turn out to be good for soldier morale, perhaps the god of war supports it. If on the other hand homosexuals in the aggregate make poor soldiers, and morale is damaged, then the god of war may oppose it.

I see this kind of image of the realms as a lot more realistic, diverse, and exciting than the idea that people of the realms are of like mind on a subject like this or any subject for that matter.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Ayrik Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 00:31:24
Netbooks are published by fans, without any official support or endorsement of any kind. Entirely optional, of course. And quality varies; there's always a few excellent tidbits, even some impressive treatises ... but (as with anything else public domain) the vast majority of offerings are mediocre, incomplete, unnecessary, or poorly thought out. Forced reassignment of a PC's sexual preferences seems like a great way to invoke anger and hostility at a game table. Reassignment of an NPC's sexual preferences should really be treated no differently, and might perhaps open roleplaying opportunities, but it seems (to me) that such stuff places undue burdens on the DM. Then again, there's probably always going to be a wizard interested in researching or applying such magics. I would think that wish would be smarter ... and I would think that such "unfair" changes to character should be handled in much the same manner. Potential abuse of this spell seems to outweigh potential gains, people don't like having their identities magically mucked around. Creatures known for their sexual predations (succubi/incubi, erinyes, vampires, lycanthropes, and elves) tend to either have a fixed gender preference, fixed gender indifference, or an intrinsic ability to polymorph their gender as necessary.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 30 Jul 2014 : 20:27:35
Oh I'm not blaming you, I'm just saying it is strange
The Arcanamach Posted - 30 Jul 2014 : 20:24:02
Someone mentioned in the other thread that it could be used by Sharess' priesthood to help their members 'expand' their experiences. Also, in the case of a gay royal it might be useful for ensuring that an heir is born. *Shrug* it was just something I happened to find today.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 30 Jul 2014 : 19:49:54
Those spells are a little...strange, and might be kind of offensive. I mean, why have a reverse sexual orientation spell? Sexual orientation shouldn't matter.
The Arcanamach Posted - 30 Jul 2014 : 19:42:03
Stumbled upon this in The Great Net Spellbook but don't know what its original source is. The Net Book as several 'sexual' spells in it though.

Reverse Sexual Orientation (Alteration)
Range: 10 yards
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: One creature
Saving Throw: Special
Author: Mario R. Borelli <mario.r.borelli.3@nd.edu>
This spell temporarily converts a creature's sexual orientation from hetero- to homosexual, or vice versa. A bisexual who favours one gender will now favour the other, and a bisexual equally disposed towards both genders is
Wizard Spells (1st level) 80
unaffected. Asexual creatures or creatures of species with more than two genders will be affected, if at all, by DM's discretion.
There is no saving throw per se against this spell. Rather, upon first experiencing sexual attraction in the altered way, or upon first questioning one's unexpected lack of accustomed sexual attraction, the subject, if strenuously disapproving, is allowed a Constitution check at _4. A successful Constitution check will experience a strong but repressive erotic attraction towards a single individual for 1 round per level of the spellcaster, after which the effects permanently vanish. A new Constitution check may be made once per day, but with a cumulative penalty of _1 per day. A check of 1 always succeeds.
The material component is a concave lump of clay which the caster remoulds into a convex lump.
Revulsion (Enchantment)
Reversible
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 turn + 1 round per level
Casting Time: 1
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: Negates
Author: Mario R. Borelli <mario.r.borelli.3@nd.edu>
Successful casting of revulsion leaves the recipient disgusted to the point of nausea at any prospect of engaging in sexual activities of any kind, no matter how minor. The reverse of this spell, indifference, eliminates any negative thoughts or feelings the recipient may have and replaces them with utter indifference. The material component of this spell is a leech or the eye of a tuna.
Ashe Ravenheart Posted - 29 Jul 2014 : 13:25:59
Gods, I just need to say how awesome this conversation is.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 29 Jul 2014 : 02:49:52
I agree with what Wooly and Ayrik said
Ayrik Posted - 29 Jul 2014 : 02:22:44
A real world observation (which I hope doesn't offend anyone) is that only monotheistic religions tend to be overly concerned about homosexuality. Most pagan and polytheistic (or more properly, henotheistic) religions - ancient, old, and new - are largely indifferent about sexual preference. There are, of course, almost always deities who govern fertility, childbirth, marriage, love, and erotism ... but the thing about having access to a whole pantheon of deities is that one does not (and probably can not) worship and appease them all simultaneously.

Remember, too, that in the Realms most deities can assume almost any form they like (or need), male or female, and that many of them have had romantic and sexual liasons with mortals and deities alike, regardless of the gender(s) involved.
Nicolai Withander Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 23:25:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I would think that attitude towards other religions are as heated as in the real world. Think the crusades.



Nope. A lot of the real-world religious conflicts have been between monotheistic religions. The deities of the Realms may war on each other, but they acknowledge the existence of other deities. Other than Cyric, none of them preach about how they are the only one worth worship. Their followers may go to great lengths to convince you that one deity is better than another, but the Realms doesn't have the "only one true religion!" thing going on that we see in the real world.

And that's a large part of why homosexuality isn't as big a deal in the Realms. There is not any one single dominant religion that has been interpreted to say it is wrong.



Ok... I had a clear feeling that different groups of evil clerics and followers would lay waste in the name of bane or that pious paladins of good, would hunt down the worshippers of evil... It might not be the deities themselves, but what about the forsaken humans, who are quick to anger and fearful of new and different people, from other faiths? Are you telling me, that people just auto accept different religions across the board?





Sure, zealous followers of a particular deity will war upon zealous followers of a rival deity... But those zealous followers are in the minority. In just about every corner of the Realms, there are going to be a few overly enthusiastic followers of one particular deity, and a whole bunch of people who either don't give an osquip's behind about that deity, or only give faith to that deity when it's relevant to their lives.

There isn't any corner of the Realms where every single person believes in one deity and no other -- everyone knows there are multiple deities. So there is less religious tension, because there isn't the "you believe as I do or you are not just wrong, but potentially an enemy!" attitude.



Indeed... like in the good old norse times, before... well you know. It was common place to pray to the god, that made sence.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 23:21:02
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I would think that attitude towards other religions are as heated as in the real world. Think the crusades.



Nope. A lot of the real-world religious conflicts have been between monotheistic religions. The deities of the Realms may war on each other, but they acknowledge the existence of other deities. Other than Cyric, none of them preach about how they are the only one worth worship. Their followers may go to great lengths to convince you that one deity is better than another, but the Realms doesn't have the "only one true religion!" thing going on that we see in the real world.

And that's a large part of why homosexuality isn't as big a deal in the Realms. There is not any one single dominant religion that has been interpreted to say it is wrong.



Ok... I had a clear feeling that different groups of evil clerics and followers would lay waste in the name of bane or that pious paladins of good, would hunt down the worshippers of evil... It might not be the deities themselves, but what about the forsaken humans, who are quick to anger and fearful of new and different people, from other faiths? Are you telling me, that people just auto accept different religions across the board?





Sure, zealous followers of a particular deity will war upon zealous followers of a rival deity... But those zealous followers are in the minority. In just about every corner of the Realms, there are going to be a few overly enthusiastic followers of one particular deity, and a whole bunch of people who either don't give an osquip's behind about that deity, or only give faith to that deity when it's relevant to their lives.

There isn't any corner of the Realms where every single person believes in one deity and no other -- everyone knows there are multiple deities. So there is less religious tension, because there isn't the "you believe as I do or you are not just wrong, but potentially an enemy!" attitude.

Going on a religious crusade in the Realms would be the rough equivalent of living in a reasonably-sized town in the US and crusading against people that don't shop at your grocery store. Everyone knows there are multiple stores, and what one doesn't offer, another prolly does. So swearing you'll shop in one store only and never set foot in another is just silly.
Nicolai Withander Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 23:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I would think that attitude towards other religions are as heated as in the real world. Think the crusades.



Nope. A lot of the real-world religious conflicts have been between monotheistic religions. The deities of the Realms may war on each other, but they acknowledge the existence of other deities. Other than Cyric, none of them preach about how they are the only one worth worship. Their followers may go to great lengths to convince you that one deity is better than another, but the Realms doesn't have the "only one true religion!" thing going on that we see in the real world.

And that's a large part of why homosexuality isn't as big a deal in the Realms. There is not any one single dominant religion that has been interpreted to say it is wrong.



Ok... I had a clear feeling that different groups of evil clerics and followers would lay waste in the name of bane or that pious paladins of good, would hunt down the worshippers of evil... It might not be the deities themselves, but what about the forsaken humans, who are quick to anger and fearful of new and different people, from other faiths? Are you telling me, that people just auto accept different religions across the board?

Wooly Rupert Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 20:16:32
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I would think that attitude towards other religions are as heated as in the real world. Think the crusades.



Nope. A lot of the real-world religious conflicts have been between monotheistic religions. The deities of the Realms may war on each other, but they acknowledge the existence of other deities. Other than Cyric, none of them preach about how they are the only one worth worship. Their followers may go to great lengths to convince you that one deity is better than another, but the Realms doesn't have the "only one true religion!" thing going on that we see in the real world.

And that's a large part of why homosexuality isn't as big a deal in the Realms. There is not any one single dominant religion that has been interpreted to say it is wrong.
Nicolai Withander Posted - 28 Jul 2014 : 19:56:18
I would think that attitude towards other religions are as heated as in the real world. Think the crusades. In relation to homosexuality, In our game its nothing unusual. There are lots of diffirent creatures and stuff. Whom you love is just not something that get people roused. It differs from country to country though.

I have never read any canon stuff on the matter, but I would asume that its unusual, but not frowned upon.
Eltheron Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 17:48:43
It just seems like an odd question to me. In the Realms, gods are concerned about souls and the beliefs/tenets that promote portfolios/alignments. None of the Realms gods seem all that interested in how mortals lead their daily lives on a minute-to-minute basis. What mortals do with their fiddly-bits doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to the gods.

Now in certain very specific cases, like in Cormyr where royals, nobles, and the very wealthy need to have a clear line of succession (by law, for purposes of inheritance of wealth or titles), mortals might be concerned about "doing your duty" to ensure at least one clear legal heir. But it just doesn't seem like anything that the gods would be concerned about.

As to the question about fertility deities, sure they want people to have babies. But at the end of the day, fertility to a polytheistic deity isn't just about specific individuals making babies, and gods don't focus solely on one of their portfolios/domains. Fertility could be served by making sure the king and queen have excellent nutrition, that they have ample time together for the "duty" to be accomplished, and even smoothing relations between two people in order to get them to like each other better. Wedding planners, courtiers, ladies-in-waiting, servants providing "alone time" and such, they all have their role in supporting the fertility of a royal (or noble) couple.

One thing that comes to mind is the scene in GRRM's Game of Thrones where Renly is hesitant about doing the wild thang with his gorgeous queen and she nonchalantly says something like, "I know you and my brother like each other, so what if we invite him just long enough that we can do the duty?" It's a reflection of real life kings and queens who in some cases were 100% gay but still did their duty and had children.

I think it falls into the category of things mortals care about for very specific reasons, but gods just wouldn't. Sort of like, "does Lathander care what I get my friend for her 32nd birthday?"

Just my $0.02, YMMV.
Ayrik Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 01:53:45
Probably my fault for mentioning ancient Greek Cataphractoi, to respond to the OP observation that sexual preference would be of little interest to a war god. Peoples perceptions affect their beliefs, which must invariably mean they affect their gods and interactions with other peoples gods. If homosexuality happens to be viewed as perquisite and nearly-synonomous with become a fearsomely elite soldier (which, in ancient Greece was often the case) then it also becomes a topic of some interest to a god worshipped by soldiers and warriors. Our society and so-called modern understanding of homosexuality (and of war, too, for that matter) may differ from those in the Realms or in ancient Greece - but that doesnt mean, for example, that Tempus would consider our opinions valid or need to abide by them.

If anything, I might think Tempus might - in his aspect as a brutal warlike ravager - embrace the conflict and dominance generated by his more rapine followers, whether such actions involve same- or other-gender. This is distasteful stuff, and not properly what would be called war, but it is an aspect of war (at least in our world) which occurs with great frequency. It is the warriors, not the war god, who ultimately decide the position of their faith on such details.

I would agree with some of the above posters: this can be a big can of worms, lead to interplayer conflict, heavyhanded imposition of DM bias, and cause all sorts of displeasure. But it wont add any enjoyment to the game. It wont improve the Realms. It wont support any published canon (especially since WotC is carefully inoffensive and, while he has expressed his opinions in past interactions, Ed has always been smart enough to not encourage or respond to such lines of questioning).

Personally, if I had a player who insisted on zealous interpretation of religious doctrine (in the name of his God, of course) which led to sorts of discrimination which arent explicitly present in the game setting, I would have most NPCs respond in a fashion which indicates they view the PC as some sort of unhealthy social deviant, a paranoid fringe extremist who champions nonproductive agendas. The Realms has plenty of charlatans and lunatics (and true priests of charlatan and lunatic faiths) already! Besides, why worry about same-sex couples married in Waterdeep when one should more rightly concern oneself with orcs, dragons, and Red Wizards?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 03:51:17
@Aldrick: you make a very good point. For some ancient cultures, such as the Greeks, that was a way of life. I think people here (myself included) are using the term "homosexuality" for the sake of the argument.
Aldrick Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 01:36:44
I want to interject here for a moment and point out that there is no such thing as "Greek style homosexuality". The Greeks were not widely homosexual (as we understand it today), they were engaging in a social and cultural practice known as pederasty.

Pederasty had nothing to do with sexual orientation. In fact, the notion of sexual orientation as we understand it today (thanks to science) is a rather modern concept. (Like most of our modern understanding of certain human conditions.)

What would be understood by someone who lived prior to our modern time is that certain individuals preferred the company of members of the same sex. It would be thought of more as a preference, because there wouldn't be this line dividing people into categories and groups such as heterosexual and homosexual.

Things like sexuality are seen more through a cultural lens. You get married and have children because that's what is expected of you by your family and society. In fact, throughout most of history marriages were arranged so things like sexual and romantic attraction were largely irrelevant. You could be completely straight (through modern understanding) and still end up married to someone who you have zero attraction toward, and you'd still be expected to perform your "duties" as a spouse.

Wide spread marriage on the basis of love alone is a completely modern concept. In fact, it's only because straight people get married based on romantic and sexual attraction that we can even contemplate something like same-sex marriage today. In a society in which most marriages are arranged it just wouldn't make sense as one of the fundamental things that is supposed to be produced by an arranged marriage is children. That's sort of part of the intended contract. Of course, none of that exists today in our modern society.

In the Realms, they may not have an understanding of sexual orientation as we do. However, they would still notice that some people "prefer" one sex over another. And with one of the fundamental deities of the setting being Sune, a goddess of love and romance, it's almost impossible to imagine that relationships built upon love aren't valued in the society. And I think we can all agree that Sune would be completely okay with individuals of the same sex getting married, and it would likely meet with near universal (or as close as you can get) acceptance by her clergy.

So with things like this in mind, we have to realize that the Realms is a fundamentally different culture than the real world. Something like homophobia just doesn't exist there like in the real world, because there hasn't been - at least to our knowledge - a group there pushing that agenda. The thought would be largely alien to them, just as many of the strange practices from other cultures are alien and strange to us today. It just wouldn't be something most people would stop to consider.

I mean, I'm just imagining a newly wed same sex couple walking down the streets of Waterdeep, and someone questioning someone else about them. I can only imagine the typical conversation going something along the lines of, "Oh, them? That's Darshan and Valdorn. They were married about a tenday ago in the Temple of Our Lady Firehair by her Holiness herself, aren't they adorable together?"

They would basically just view them as any other newlywed couple. It would be alien for them to view it any differently, because they haven't been exposed to any different type of thinking.

Now, I'm sure bigotry does exist somewhere in the Realms, and I can think of some places where it's likely. However, those are outside of the areas dominated by the Faerunian Pantheon. Those areas also likely have a different view on women, and see marriage more as a contractual arrangement and may even have (formal or informal) arranged marriages.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 00:01:31
I certainly hope homosexuality is more widely accepted in the Realms than it is in the real world. And I don't mean Greek style, I mean homosexuality (and for that matter, the other sexualties) in general. That, of course, is my personal hope as a supporter of the LGBTQ community.
The Arcanamach Posted - 23 Jul 2014 : 23:51:16
Actually I think Ed's statements on the subject make it clear that homosexuality is pretty much accepted everywhere the Faerunian pantheon is dominant. And he's made several comments on the subject. So the 'Greek' style homosexuality issue isn't actually an issue (at least not in HIS Realms). I doubt there's a comment by him out there stating otherwise though something could be taken out of context.

The Hooded One Posted - 23 Jul 2014 : 21:49:52
Ahem. redking, Ed's a pretty nice, understanding, kind guy, but one thing that does rub him the wrong way is posters claiming he said this or that when he hasn't.
For the record, so far as I know (after having checked with Ed, mind you!), Ed Greenwood hasn't ever said anything one way or the other about "Greek style homosexuality."
So I, too, am VERY curious as where and when Ed stated what you claim he stated.
love,
THO
CorellonsDevout Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 16:37:30
I took that sentence out of my post. I meant it as a reminder not generalize, not as a joke. It has now been removed.
Thrasymachus Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 21:46:50
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Not all homosexual men are girly. Some are, yes, but it is also a stereotype.

I think we have stumbled on the new official drinking game of Candlekeep?

Not all <insert religious group, social group, nationality> are <insert stereotype>. Some are, yes, but it is also a stereotype.
*drink*
Thrasymachus Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 21:36:00
@OP
Oh, boy. I wouldn’t do this, because once you have this in the portfolio of a God, then the next shoe to drop is that the god who is diametrically opposed to that god is against that aspect of the portfolio. Now when some player goes all Jihad-Crusade-Inquisition on either side of the subject, I would not consider it fun. YM Will V depending on what views are at your table. But for the sake of argument, or for lack of arguments, I’ll attempt to entertain the OP.

Let’s just take the basic Birds and Bees, or in this case the Bees that pollenate and enable reproduction. I could see a god having a place of reverence for bees role in the process as it aids flowers. Likewise midwives, and foster parents that are enablers. The list can go on if you are intending to make this fit.

I see the scroll that brought this about. I’ll go there in a bit.
The needed disclaimer: What you do at your table is your buisness. I really don't care what you do. Really.
xaviera Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 15:28:56
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

So, in the Realms, the deities with the most sway over the view of -ALL- love and sexuality (homosexual, heterosexual, and anything beyond or in-between) are going to be Sune and Sharess. They are going to have, by far, more influence than any other church or deity, and even other clergies are likely to take their lead from them. It is abundantly clear that neither Sune or Sharess have a problem with homosexuality, and to the extent that they do have a problem with homosexuality it would be an equal problem with heterosexuality - that such individuals are limited and cutting themselves off from pleasure and potential new and exciting experiences.

To the extent that these clergy speak out against homosexuality, it's to encourage people to try and keep an open mind and experience romantic and sexual intimacy with people of the opposite sex. However, in the same breath, they would be telling heterosexuals to do the same thing, but with people of the same sex.

[...]

When it comes to a fertility deity such as Shiallia, who is a very minor demigoddess whose primary area of worship is mostly limited to the High Forest and the Neverwinter Wood, things could potentially get a bit more murky.

I suspect that certain deities who were opposed to homosexuality (for whatever reason) might make it known to their clergy (and, by extension, their worshippers) that 'yes, some people say it's okay, but we don't really think so'. So you could end up with a situation where something that is supposed to be generally socially acceptable is frowned upon within a more limited circle (as RL discrimination against LGBTQ people is legally forbidden in many places but still happens nonetheless). This might be overlooked to the degree that one adheres to the other precepts of the religion (i.e. one's fanaticism about other things, e.g. fighting ability for a worshipper of Tempus).

Deities of fertility/family might take a similar line - 'what you do for recreation is fine, and if you want to share your bed with someone of the same sex on a permanent basis that's good too, but you really need to get out there and do your bit for the continuation of the race'. But again, any negativity experienced by LGBTQ people might be reduced to the extent that they uphold the remainder of the deity's portfolio - e.g. take on caregiver duties for extended family members.

Jeremy Grenemyer Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 07:18:32
Not wanting to sidetrack the larger discussion, but I'm interested in seeing the post where Ed indicates this, if you have a link to it available.

Note: this post does not support your claim, so I'm wondering where the info came from.
redking Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 06:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Curious: what Realms sourcebook indicates, with no room for doubt, that "Greek style homosexuality" does not exist in the Forgotten Realms


Perhaps I should say that Greek style homosexuality is explicitly not accepted in the realms. I suppose it could exist but I don't see many gaming groups having a paedophile PC.

Ed Greenwood said it isn't accepted, FYI. I hope your version of inclusive doesn't include paedophilia.
Jeremy Grenemyer Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 04:44:25
Curious: what Realms sourcebook indicates, with no room for doubt, that "Greek style homosexuality" does not exist in the Forgotten Realms?
redking Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 04:18:09
Just to be clear since the ancient Greeks have been mentioned, ancient Greek style homosexuality is the only kind of homosexuality that explicitly does not exist in the realms.

Greek style homosexuality is called "paiderastia" in Greek. I think no translation into English is required.
BEAST Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 04:10:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Ancient civilizations sometimes fielded entire units composed of paired homosexual lovers.

All those old Greek pots and vases with pics of bottomless soldiers...erm, pitching tents...would attest to that!

EDIT: Hey, come to think of it, if the Greeks could do that on their pottery, then maybe our modern-day boobmail actually has a historical precedent and a justification?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 11 Jul 2014 : 03:45:28
You are right, Ayrik. A lot of armies were composed of homosexual male couples, because it was believed you would fight harder for those in your company.

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