| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Yuukale |
Posted - 20 Jul 2014 : 04:45:10
So... something that kinda intrigued me for some years and only now did I come to the most holy library seeking aid:
Suppose an elven child born to a Wild Elf (sy'tel'quessir) father and a Moon Elf (teu'tel'quessir) mother. How will the child look like? Which features will it take after? does it make difference which parent belongs to which subrace?
Furthermore, if I may add game mechanics to complexify this: is it possible that this offspring has the ability bonuses from one and the appearance from the other? Or even mixed bonuses (though no actual game rules exist to support this mixed bonuses thing, I only ask out of curiosity to see the opinion of fellow scribes)
Sweet water and light laughter to you all. |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 00:34:09
Well, technically each variety of elves is a "separate race entirely". Certainly the drow, aquatic, and avariel sorts are each sufficiently differentiated to confidently make such a claim.
High/Moon/Silver, Grey/Sun/Gold, and Sylvan/Wild/Copper elves are all somewhat similar, however. As are the Star/Mithril elves, elves from Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Krynn, and Planescape. Earliest Dragonlance fiction sidestepped the issue by explaining that the differences are almost clanlike, distinctions made (among the elves, at least) based primarily on social, cultural, and historical perceptions. Early Greyhawk lore posited that each breed is indeed a separate species, resistant to change, unable to successfully interbreed. More generic AD&D/D&D lore often handwaved such questions with the observation that elves were "perfectly formed" creatures, essentially designed for grace, beauty, and longevity, but at the subtle cost of being unable (as a species) to change and adapt - meaning that they seem to find themselves displaced by humans and other races which adapt more aggressively. Circa D&D 3E/3.5E, the notion of elven hybrids and halfbreeds somehow became very popular, I think the rules reflected a more tolerant position towards such creatures (though I'm unsure), I know that a great many 3P/OGL products addressed the possibilities in many ways.
My personal ruling would simply be that such elven characters must choose a "standard" subrace of elves which functionally defines racial abilities, stat modifiers, and whatnot; any mixed-elf characteristics they might possess would essentially be cosmetic, offer no real (dis)advantage in terms of game rules, and generally be of little interest outside of character background and role-playing complications (and, even then, be of utterly no interest to most non-elf NPCs). But that's only my opinion - DMs and authors would each take their own positions. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 01:02:32
I think the rules in various editions are somewhat confusing regarding the drow. They may NOT be considered "true" elves, but a separate race entirely, though descendant from elves. Their racial stats would seem to imply that, or else they would be lumped in with all other elves. |
| BenN |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 06:17:06
Regarding the offspring of Moon Elf & Drow pairings, RAS' Night of the Hunter has this in the prologue (describing Doum'wielle, the daughter of one such couple):
quote:
She saw it in her silvery skin, skin that spoke of her mixed elf and drow heritage
.
So elves always breed to true, except when they don't (if one of them is a drow).  |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 05:59:37
This thread got me thinking about an interesting question, and it's implications. If a pairing of two different Elven sub-races always breed true to one parent or the other (i.e. a pairing between a Moon Elf and a Sun Elf will always yield either a Moon Elf or a Sun Elf child), what does this mean for Elven pairings with Drow? If a Moon Elf breeds with a Drow will their children ALWAYS be Drow due to the nature and magical origin of the Drow race? If this is the case, what are the implications of this fact?
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 05:08:57
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
If elves 'breed true', and hybrids don't exist, for me it raises a couple of questions:
1) Does this mean that elves don't evolve? Or do they, but only if both parents are of the same subrace?
Well, who needs to evolve when you were created by your deity in his image -- and he can pop round and tell you that himself?
Magical evolution is also possible. There are numerous examples in Realmslore of land-dwelling elves using magic to change their race and become sea elves.
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
2) Does this mean that elven children don't inherit traits from their parents? (e.g. characteristics such as height, weight, facial features, eye colour, temperament etc).
Sure, they inherit traits from their parents. It's just one or the other on race.
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
If they do, how come some traits are inherited, but not others (i.e. subrace-specific features)?
It could be that the genes that determine elven subraces are simply incompatible with each other -- so whichever is the primary gene for the subrace switches on the other genes for that race, and switches off genes for any other subrace.
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
If they don't inherit such traits, shouldn't elves of any subrace basically look identical? (i.e. how is any variation propagated from generation to generation?).
They do inherit traits -- it's just a specific subset of traits. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 01:45:13
*Blink* genetic as in RW does not work the same way as in the Realms or D&D as a whole. When a character is generated the player is given option of hair and eye color based on race selected. The DM of home game might provide more options as well.
A red eye human is not in the rules, a half Drow or half orc might have red eyes, however I would need to verify that. |
| BenN |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 01:16:09
If elves 'breed true', and hybrids don't exist, for me it raises a couple of questions:
1) Does this mean that elves don't evolve? Or do they, but only if both parents are of the same subrace?
2) Does this mean that elven children don't inherit traits from their parents? (e.g. characteristics such as height, weight, facial features, eye colour, temperament etc).
If they do, how come some traits are inherited, but not others (i.e. subrace-specific features)?
If they don't inherit such traits, shouldn't elves of any subrace basically look identical? (i.e. how is any variation propagated from generation to generation?). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Jul 2014 : 00:40:21
I meant "unique" to mean "exclusive" in this context. As in, the child of a wild-elf/moon-elf union will be a wild elf without any moon elf characteristics, or vice-versa.
Or so sayeth the game rules, at least from AD&D (1E) to D&D 3E/3.5E, along with the related fiction and canon. While I can't think of any hybrid-elf examples which indicate otherwise in the same publications.
Not to say it's impossible, almost anything is possible in a magic-driven fantasy world, and a mixed elf might make for interesting stories - especially if extremes are emphasized, such as perhaps a noble-born gold elf with some drow characteristics. Yes, this is just lack of proof, not proof of lack, but I would side my arguments to align with what has been said within the rules and lore, not what is unsaid.
A definitive answer might always be obtained from Ed, of course, although it may differ from whatever WotC canonizes. And anyone can do whatever they want to the rules and setting in their own Realms, of course. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 01:06:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An elf born to moon-elf and wild-elf parents will be either a moon-elf or a wild-elf, will not have any characteristics unique to the other breed, and will likewise breed true when producing elven children.
The key word is "unique". E.g. a Moon Elf will be pale even if one of parents was a Wood Elf. But occasional uncharacteristic traits may remain. And confuse the less-experienced observers, as with Ashemmi.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Jul 2014 : 20:52:08
The characteristics of hybrid and halfbred races are defined by the rules within your particular game edition and sourcebooks.
I prefer the treatment given in 2E PHBR8: Complete Book of Elves. It agrees with Sage, elves (and half-elves) in the Realms functionally express characteristics true to their (elven) parents breed.
An elf born to moon-elf and wild-elf parents will be either a moon-elf or a wild-elf, will not have any characteristics unique to the other breed, and will likewise breed true when producing elven children. The same applies to half-elves, although their elven blood may be diluted (until they are basically just humans with traces of elven blood, slightly pointed ears, and perhaps some minor elven aptitudes without much game effect).
There are examples in Realms canon of humans who possess distant elven ancestry, although these are usually trivial characteristics of minor characters. And while there are a few exotic elves of unknown origin, there are no mixed-breed elves (or half-elves) who show any physical characteristics of other elven races. Not a single stray lock of copper hair. Apparently this is the way Corellon designed the species.
Our understanding of genetics likely does not apply. A moon-elf male could not be produced from a wild-elf mother and other-elf father, not even through cloning. The Realms is a fantasy world populated by fantasy creatures (including elves, perhaps even Realms humans) who exist through magic, myth, and divine will - they are not products of genetic evolution through aeons of natural selection, they are the results of fantastic supernatural selection.
There are numerous non-canon sources (fan-based netbooks, 3P d20/OGL sourcebooks, etc) which offer detailed rules for halfbreed D&D races. Some are quite excellent, at least as inspiration, but many are ridiculously arbitrary and needlessly complex. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jul 2014 : 06:09:29
Despite real-world genetics, in the Realms, elves aren't half-and-half. A wild elf and a moon elf would have kids that were fully moon elf or fully wild elf. And it would vary from kid to kid -- those parents could have two kids, and one would be a wild elf, and one would be a moon elf. |
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