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 New Succubi/Incubi, neither Devils, nor Demons

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Gyor Posted - 21 May 2014 : 03:07:31
From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi on his twitter account today, it makes Succubi/Incubi sound like very interesting fiendish mercanaries/prostitutes.

So you could find them in service to devils, ala 4e, you can find them in service to demon lords ala previous editions, you can find them in service to Dark Gods, which is awesome because unlike Good Gods which have Celestials of various races in there service, this gives Dark Gods a servant race to use when in need of Planar service.

Hypotethetically you could even have Succubi in service to powerful mortals, or even working for stranger masters, like Elementals, Rogue Good Deities like Sharess (Sharess already has Alu-Fiends so why not), Lovecraftian Elder Gods, Evil Primordial Spirits, ArchSuccubi/Incubi.

This gives Succubi/Incubi uses beyond simply seducers, they can be Heralds of a God, they can be spy masters and double agents in Planar Politics, high ranking members of secret societies, and so much more. And yes seducers.

I for one like the change and it fits the current lore, especially as envisioned by Erin M Evans. Too crafty and manipulative for the Abyss, too emotional and passionate for Hell's discipline.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Gyor Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 20:26:30
Update, just found out that Shami_Amorae is a vertiage again, with her body in the Amber Temple.

So this changes things when it comes to the heirarchy of the Succubi.
Roseweave Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 23:29:49
I think it makes sense for them to be something in between. I think that's the way they were considering rationalising it so it can be consistent with both 4E and older products(for exactly Falls-From-Grace's backstory makes no sense with 4E's rulings), succubi can be both. They act more like devils in practice, slyer, making deals, but are more chaos orientated than other devils.
Gyor Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 15:21:20
I have concidered just calling the Incubi and Succubi as just "The Bi".
Baltas Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 11:24:26
quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros

I really like that conflation to "Lilith, the Hag Countess", and the Maiden/Mother/Crone trinity as part of that. As the Night Hags are the ones who create Altraloths, having Lilith be the Hag Countess suggests the possibility that some of the more powerful succubi and incubi could be Altraloths.



Glad you also like it,I always thought it is brilliant.

Curiously, mimir.net also iscussed the possibility succubi may be Yugoloths, "Bioloths", but also suggesting Erinyes are the ssme species, which I don't think is the case:
http://mimir.net/essays/succubus.html

It's at the very bottom.

Also, I think Hedonoloth/Hedonodaemon just sound better than bioloth.

[EDIT]

Also, while I think Erinyes are normally a separate breed of fiend than Succubi/Incubi, it's possible Brachina/Pleasure Devils, are "Succubized/Incubized" Erinyes, possibly by Lilith herself. As the most powerful Erynies are promoted into Brachina, the process may be similar to a transformation into an Altraloth, if more standardized. But what most devils would not know, could be that Brachinas are sleeper agents for Lilith the Hag Countess...
Thanateros Posted - 11 Jan 2016 : 10:02:38
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, while most described Lilim are female, a Lilim could of either sex in Hebrew Folklore. The Mesopotamian "Lil" demons had names according to their gender, like Lilu was male, but Ardat Lili was female. Also, "Lilim", is the plural form, like Seraphim. A singular form would be Lil, or Lili, just like Seraph is the singular form of Seraphim.

Although I had the devil Lilith to be a Daemon(not necersary a Yugoloth, more Night Hag-ish) who infiltrated both Baatazu, and Tanarii, based on Green Ronin materials which had Lilith and Hag Countess as the same. But to be clear, the people who wrote that, also wrote official stuff, like the Gates of Hell, and Fiendish Codex I. It also clears out the confusion tht both Lilith and the Hag Countess were described as Moloch's consort, that replaced him as the ruler of the Sixth Hell/Malbolge.

Hag, including Night Hags can beautiful, but chose otherwise, as described by Chris Avellone. It would also tie Hags and Succubi, as both describe to the two "darker", but oddly interchangable forms of the Three Faces of Eve/Triple Goddess "The Crone" and "The Seductress".

I really like that conflation to "Lilith, the Hag Countess", and the Maiden/Mother/Crone trinity as part of that. As the Night Hags are the ones who create Altraloths, having Lilith be the Hag Countess suggests the possibility that some of the more powerful succubi and incubi could be Altraloths.
Baltas Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 15:13:36
Well, while most described Lilim are female, a Lilim could of either sex in Hebrew Folklore. The Mesopotamian "Lil" demons had names according to their gender, like Lilu was male, but Ardat Lili was female.
Also, "Lilim", is the plural form, like Seraphim. A singular form would be Lil, or Lili, just like Seraph is the singular form of Seraphim.

Although I had the devil Lilith to be a Daemon(not necersary a Yuggoloth, more Night Hag-ish) who infiltrated both Baatazu, and Tanarii, based on Green Ronin materials which had Lilith and Hag Countess as the same. But to be clear, the people who wrote that, also wrote official stuff, like the Gates of Hell, and Fiendish Codex I. It also clears out the confusion tht both Lilith and the Hag Countess were described as Moloch's consort, that replaced him as the ruler of the Sixth Hell/Malbolge.

Hag, including Night Hags can beautiful, but chose otherwise, as described by Chris Avellone.
It would also tie Hags and Succubi, as both describe to the two "darker", but oddly interchangable forms of the Three Faces of Eve/Tripple Goddess "The Crone" and "The Seductress".

Although that again, would make Succubi/incubi more tied to the female sex...
Thanateros Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 13:04:54
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I used the term "Lilim", as a gender neutral name for Succubi and Incubi, seeing how Lilim actually inspired largelly them in the first place.

I had considered the word lilim for similar mythological reasons, but lilim are also generally depicted as females only. As the majority of mythological seducers are depicted as females, the advantage of coining hedonodaemon as a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus is that it has no such historical androcentric baggage.
MrHedgehog Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 23:24:46
Having "fiends" that can be any evil alignment makes sense to me.
Erinyes, succubi/incubi and maybe other varieties seem good.

Erinyes being seductive is so far from their source mythology as to be absurd. They should be angry warriors who seek vengeance!


I agree that Pathfinder did a much better job of all the outsiders than D&D ever did.

AND I wish they did more of those videos. I was fine with the mechanics of 4e...it was just forgotten realms plot I was mad at
Baltas Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:40:07
Well, I used the term "Lilim", as a gender neutral name for Succubi and Incubi, seeing how Lilim actually inspired largelly them in the first place.
moonbeast Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 22:21:00
quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros

quote:
Originally posted by Edison12

WoTC shamed us all with 4e.

4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it.

That video is one of the most funniest…. and bizarre…. I've ever seen.
Gyor Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:14:12
For Pathfinder fiends my favourites are the Kytons, Divs, Asuras, Demodands (I know demodands are from D&D, but Pathfinder actually does something interesting with them, it turns them into servants/worshippers of the Abyssal Titans).

In fact Pathfinder does outsiders better them D&D with the exception of making Succubi neutral evil race of its own, which rocks.
Gyor Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:07:42
quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros

quote:
Originally posted by Edison12

WoTC shamed us all with 4e.

4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it.



Best thing that came out of 4e, although I actually liked many 4e things, that video is funny as all Baator. I'm a monster rwar, I have a lair, do have a lair, curest minion ever I love it.
Thanateros Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 09:28:37
quote:
Originally posted by Edison12

WoTC shamed us all with 4e.

4e brought us the interview with the gnome and the tiefling, so at least some good came out of it.
LordofBones Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 05:54:55
Charon of the thanodaemons and Charon the uber-marraenoloth may just be the same being, which does bring up some issues.
Shemmy Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 05:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Pathfinder retains succubi and incubi as tanar'ri, for the most part.

I suppose you could refluff daemons as extensions of the 'loths, too. The two castes probably don't mix much.



Yeah, Pathfinder retains the flavor of some of the classic D&D fiends at this point better than D&D does.

I wouldn't personally combine PF daemons and D&D 'loths, given their particular aims and goals being pretty different. Mortal death as the only goal versus universal suffering as the only goal. You could have them in the same game, just would need to work out their co-existance (or have them on different NE planes).
LordofBones Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 02:47:57
Pathfinder retains succubi and incubi as tanar'ri, for the most part.

I suppose you could refluff daemons as extensions of the 'loths, too. The two castes probably don't mix much.
Shemmy Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 01:26:16
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I actually love what they're doing with the Succubi, its a fair compromise, and it leads to cool plot lines, although I would like to see a none evil Succubus Queen of redeemed Succubi,although Sharess kind of fills this role.



It's not so much a compromise as sticking with 4e's changes by and large.

A compromise would have been placing succubi/incubi back as tanar'ri as they've always been and make the most sense as, but including a small contingent of them which fell/rose from CE to become their own unique race with some manner of in-game rationalization.
Gyor Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 13:19:27
I actually love what they're doing with the Succubi, its a fair compromise, and it leads to cool plot lines, although I would like to see a none evil Succubus Queen of redeemed Succubi,although Sharess kind of fills this role.
Gyor Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 23:31:00
quote:
Originally posted by Thanateros

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I assume this was before Succubi/Incubi became independent?


I always hated the lack of a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus, so based on Greek words such as cacodaemon and agathodaemon I decided that the missing gender-neutral word would be hedonodaemon. This naturally lead to succubi/incubi being yugoloth daemons, so in my version of the D&D multiverse hedonodaemons have always been the predominantly Neutral Evil sex fiends that they are now in 5e. To further illustrate my deviations, I had made a Neutral Evil Tharizdun the root source of all fiendish and Evil divine powers, even if a given fiend is unaware of such.



That sounds cool and I like the name.

On a seperate note, for more on current Succubi politics read Ashes of the Tyrant.
Thanateros Posted - 28 Dec 2015 : 09:47:46
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I assume this was before Succubi/Incubi became independent?


I always hated the lack of a gender-neutral word for succubus/incubus, so based on Greek words such as cacodaemon and agathodaemon I decided that the missing gender-neutral word would be hedonodaemon. This naturally lead to succubi/incubi being yugoloth daemons, so in my version of the D&D multiverse hedonodaemons have always been the predominantly Neutral Evil sex fiends that they are now in 5e. To further illustrate my deviations, I had made a Neutral Evil Tharizdun the root source of all fiendish and Evil divine powers, even if a given fiend is unaware of such.
Gyor Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 02:05:17
I assume this was befoe Succubi/Incubi became independant?
Thanateros Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 14:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Socothbenoth would make for an interesting Incubi King.


Seconded.

In a game that I ran I had cast Socothbenoth as the Altraloth of Lust who had infiltrated the Abyss and established himself as a manner of "incubus king".
Gyor Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 13:45:12
Eriynes are beautiful again and techniquely they could try and seduce someone, they are more like avenging fallen angels and they have no shapeshifting power.

In 4e as a result of most of the Succubi changing sides and becoming devils, Asmodeau had transformed the Eryines into a more powerful, but less beautiful and flightless form, higher up the devil hierarchy then Succubi.

I guess with the betrayal of the Succubi, or at least some and thier independant status, Asmodeaus transformed the Eyrines back into something closer to what they were, although there role now is still simular.
moonbeast Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 06:30:42
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

In Erin M. Evin's interview she talks about Succubi and thier current situation and how interestingly complex there political situation has become.

Succubi Queens like Malcanthet, Shami-Amourae, Xinivrae, Lynkhab, can end up working for different sides, like Malcanthet works for Hells, Shami-Amourae working for the Abyss, Xinivrae somewhere inbetween was suggested.



One point of interest is that D&D has had a Hellish counterpart to the succubi since ancient TSR days. That devilishly sexy creature is called the Erinyes. The erinyes were somewhat different, in that they did not necessarily use their "beauty" as a means to seduce, although it's not inconceivable that they could attempt to do so.

Gyor Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 03:11:55
Socothbenoth would make for an interesting Incubi King.
Gyor Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 03:05:26
There are some implications of the Succubi as thier own fiends.

1: Cambions, thier half fiend childern aren't aligned to demon or devil either. Unlike most fiends Cambions have a soul & as such can choose good of thier own free will, but that part isn't new.

2: Many Tieflings were descended from Succubi, now that the Succubi are independant,they're desendants should produce very different Tieflings from this point forward.
Gyor Posted - 22 Dec 2015 : 02:56:51
In Erin M. Evin's interview she talks about Succubi and thier current situation and how interestingly complex there political situation has become.

Succubi Queens like Malcanthet, Shami-Amourae, Xinivrae, Lynkhab, can end up working for different sides, like Malcanthet works for Hells, Shami-Amourae working for the Abyss, Xinivrae somewhere inbetween was suggested.

She also suggested the Succubi Queens and the Succubi could be play all sides as they're shape shifters so the Succubus you fought one day, you end up being the Succubus you'd been allied to in a different form.

I know some of you hate the changes to Succubi, but it has opened up so many cool possiblities.

Like Succubi would serve a Fallen Empyrean, Dark God,or other denizen of the lower planes.
moonbeast Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 22:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi on his twitter account today, it makes Succubi/Incubi sound like very interesting fiendish mercanaries/prostitutes.



Succubi/Incubi are demons.

If they aren't in 5e, it's an unfortunately poor move. They have an opportunity to fix lore that went off the rails in the past few years, but they also risk compounding the issue.



I have the 5e Monster Manual, and Succubi/Incubi are listed as a separate entry as Fiends, Neutral Evil.

They may have historically (in D&D history anyways) been listed as demons, but the Neutral Evil alignment actually makes more sense. A Chaotic Evil creature is three packets of the crazy sauce, they are bonkers and unusually violently unpredictable. I understand that not all CE creatures are like that, for example there are many ancient red dragons that act intelligently and with calculated discipline.

But the Neutral Evil alignment makes plenty of sense for the Succubi/Incubi. It means they are evil corruptors and seducers, and corrupting mortals is an Evil task, not necessarily a Lawful or Chaotic task.

They have no obligation to follow the Law or the natural pecking order or follow iron-fisted discipline (e.g. like Devils). At the same time, they don't have to be brash chaotic unpredictable hot messes either (e.g. Demonkind). They are neither lawful or chaotic. They are simply evil, corrupting evil. And that does make sense given the work they do.
Thanateros Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 14:14:22
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi... you can find them in service to Dark Gods

Incubi/succubi in service of Tharizdun = hentai-style tentacled sex daemons

Now I want to play a tiefling descended from such a daemon, with the ability to sprout tentacles.
Ayrik Posted - 06 Sep 2014 : 01:24:06
So much lively discussion over a minor monster, just because its a sexy beast!

No one seems to care overmuch when other monsters - the sorts which every adventurer should expect to encounter with some frequency! - such as orcs, trolls, and owlbears are likewise altered, bastardized, and morphed between D&D game editions. I still mourn the loss of my 1E-era rust monster, cute little thing, as it was mysteriously transmogrified into an abhorrent little metal-eating cockroach. And orcs, so rubbery and piglike, quite disagreeable these days, but one must still fight them off by the horde. But succubi? I think I could count them all on one hand (no jokes please).

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