| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 14:05:23
Hello fellow scribes...
I have had a hard time gathering hard evidense on the matter.
I was wondering if there was any hard knowledge on the whereabouts of the nether scrolls. All 100 pages.
Im interested in knowledge around 1374-ish...
Thanks |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 12:16:19
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
I'm unsure but when in tree form, the magic of the scrolls was tailored to elves (and I vaguely recall something about gnomes being able to glean secrets from it too) so the netherese wouldn't have been able to learn that kind of thing from it which is why, in the adventure where the tree is destroyed, the shadovar stole it and were trying to tailor it for human understanding.
It is not clear, in the Grand History reference, if the gnome who took a glance at the scrolls and learned illusionism magic made it before or after the scrolls were transformed into a tree. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 11:57:34
If you wanna go with the "three" set theory, maybe The Tablets of Pharyssolnyth is actually the third set? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 05:01:32
Well there certainly is merit in concept of members of each race forming a secret order of high magic to collect the knowledge and have a library available for when/if new members joined the order. The Order of Nether Readers The plan could have been establishment of something like Candlekeep, where only the few knew about the most secret of the secret.
If such a group not as nations wrote the scrolls, clearly long term plan did not work. The story of great power was discovered or was leaked. The elves clearly were not happy about them for example.
The known lore says two sets, while there might be more none have been added to lore and most still missing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 04:43:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've always held there had to be at least three sets, since there were three races working on them. The Golden set belonged to the Sarrukh, the Silver the Aeriee, and the (unknown) copper for the Batrachi.
The Imaskarna were of a similar nature, and devised by the Fey, but like everything fey they were cloaked in illusions to appear as something else.
Which leaves just the humans... where are their 'ancient tomes of tremendous power'?
always thought the Scrolls were so great cause all creator races worked on them together - the Bae'tith, not separate, each contributing something unique
They did work on them together.
But don't you think each race would have wanted a copy after it was completed? Two sets for three races? The math doesn't work out.
But where does it say the scrolls were created with the intent of sharing them with their races?
As I see it, we had members of three different races coming together for a common cause, one that transcended race -- collecting, in one place, lots and lots of magical lore. And they made two copies, so that they had a backup.
If you want to say that each race should have shared equally, why not have nine sets, or 300? That would provide for much wider dissemination of the lore, equally spread out among the races...
I think the many repeated references in Realmslore to the existence of just two sets shows that it wasn't about everyone wanting their own copy -- it was about making one central repository for magical lore, and then a backup for that one central repository. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 03:05:47
I don‘t fully agree with your theory about three full sets of Nether Scrolls, Markus. Although it‘s possible, even logical, there‘s no particular requirement for magic or the Realms to be sensible or symmetrical. I would imagine that a third set of Nether Scrolls would‘ve been documented somewhere in Realmslore, not to mention that Netheril (and subsequent magic-using civilizations, and those pesky elves) would‘ve sought such scrolls relentlessly over millennia if they had any plausible reason to suspect their existence.
Having said that, a third set of scrolls is not impossible. Mystryl/Mystra could be hoarding one in secret, refusing to hint it exists to even the most gifted, loyal, or stubborn of mortals - a possible source of the new/replacement scrolls Mystra gave Larloch? Or it might be that two Creator races excluded the third while crafting their scrolls. Or that the third set is possessed by dragons, perhaps in some non-scroll format which mere (demi)humans wouldn‘t readily recognize or be able to decipher. Indeed, it could be argued that a third set of scrolls took the form of living dragons. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Apr 2014 : 01:54:08
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've always held there had to be at least three sets, since there were three races working on them. The Golden set belonged to the Sarrukh, the Silver the Aeriee, and the (unknown) copper for the Batrachi.
The Imaskarna were of a similar nature, and devised by the Fey, but like everything fey they were cloaked in illusions to appear as something else.
Which leaves just the humans... where are their 'ancient tomes of tremendous power'?
always thought the Scrolls were so great cause all creator races worked on them together - the Bae'tith, not separate, each contributing something unique
They did work on them together.
But don't you think each race would have wanted a copy after it was completed? Two sets for three races? The math doesn't work out.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Apr 2014 : 20:06:12
And the elves with their High Magic weren't even around when the Golden Skins were created. Which is why my interpretation is: Nether Scrolls are basically a Weave analyzer with mind-reading "parser" that translates the result into a form its user can understand. High Mages allowed it to bend the output part further around them, whether on their own understanding or responding on its instruction. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Apr 2014 : 19:00:39
I'm unsure but when in tree form, the magic of the scrolls was tailored to elves (and I vaguely recall something about gnomes being able to glean secrets from it too) so the netherese wouldn't have been able to learn that kind of thing from it which is why, in the adventure where the tree is destroyed, the shadovar stole it and were trying to tailor it for human understanding. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 12 Apr 2014 : 22:31:28
One thing I just found, but never really thought of. When in tree form, there was a 6th chapter that revealed itself to the "reader", when all other had been studied. Giving access to level 10 spells and elven high magic. Before the fall of Netheril the little dragon apparently told of even higher level magic.
Three questions:
1) Does the little dragon still teach 10th level and Elven High Magic in year 1372?
2) If this was a secret chapter, hidden and only viewable in tree form, how did the netherese gain +9 level spells? I kind of suggests that that kind of knowledge is not in the 5 real chapters of the
scrolls.
3) It says that it revealed higher level magic before the fall of netheril. Now how can this be? How can such an event change the amount of knowledge in the scrolls. Someone penned the text of the nether scrolls and so the originalwording should not have changed. I can totally understand from a game mechanic point of view since the rules changed, but from a story point of view this makes no sence to me. Can anyone explain this? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Apr 2014 : 22:24:59
Methinks they are a wordly manifestation of Mystryl‘s kindergarten scribblings. |
| Marc |
Posted - 12 Apr 2014 : 18:04:32
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've always held there had to be at least three sets, since there were three races working on them. The Golden set belonged to the Sarrukh, the Silver the Aeriee, and the (unknown) copper for the Batrachi.
The Imaskarna were of a similar nature, and devised by the Fey, but like everything fey they were cloaked in illusions to appear as something else.
Which leaves just the humans... where are their 'ancient tomes of tremendous power'?
always thought the Scrolls were so great cause all creator races worked on them together - the Bae'tith, not separate, each contributing something unique |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 22:19:56
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But one thing that seems strange to me is, that they are not more sought after.
It's like looking for any other unique artifact/relic. You either have the obsession and dedication to spend every waking moment looking for it, or you get on with your life and keep your eyes/ears open as best you can while pursuing more attainable goals.
There are surely a couple of individuals and cabals in the former group. We just don't have their names, partly because their devotion to searching lost ruins makes them unlikely to be encountered by "normal" adventurers, and partly because it's not interesting to write/read about such obsession until they succeed... or fail spectacularly. And either one of those ends removes them from play.
But most interested parties are in the latter group. Of course Manshoon would like to get his hands on the Nether Scrolls. So would the Zulkirs, and the Harpers, and many individual mages. But for the most part they're busy with other things because singleminded pursuit of a unique object is time-consuming and (except in the hugely unlikely event of immediate success) fruitless.
A few individuals, like Elminster and the Srinshee (and probably Larloch and Aumvor) have had the opportunity at some point to access the Scrolls. Each of them have, for whatever reason, chosen not to attempt to keep the Scrolls for themselves... but they undoubtedly judge those who get close to finding them, and turn them away or slay them.
The Nether Scrolls are, in my personal opinion, the forbidden fruit of magic. In the sense of dark and overwhelming power, not "because Elminster will kill you." Although there is certainly something to that last part, because he's acquainted with the power and the will of the Scrolls.
The Scrolls were created by hideous evil, for its own purposes... not as a gentle/helpful tutorial for whoever happens to discover them. Using the Scrolls should be seductive, mind-altering, and overwhelming. Delusions of grandeur. Incurable insanity. Transformation, perhaps into forms which are incompatible with survival on Faerun. Perhaps they can make one enormously powerful... but they don't. They pull their would-be conquerors in with tantalizing visions of power, then twist and squeeze the foolish worm until nothing is left but bubbling juices. No mortal mind can wrest power from the Scrolls. Those who have escaped only did so through the grace of Mystryl herself. Rumors to the contrary exist to draw moths to the flame.
This is just how I would play it, but it's consistent with (a) the Scrolls being scattered across Faerun, Toril, and possibly other Primes; (b) the actual locations of individual Scrolls being unknown to all and guessed by only a handful; (c) several rumors exist regarding the Scrolls, but these are universally untrue because anyone who finds a Scroll --or wishes to keep it hidden from fools-- takes it elsewhere to avoid competition, so only the false rumors survive; (d) those who find a Scroll don't survive for long or don't return to civilization.
tl;dr: the Scrolls are wherever you want to put them, except where "everyone knows" they are. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 22:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well yes this could be. I have always taken to Two set idea a canon, and so never thought on the possibility of more sets.
But one thing that seems strange to me is, that they are not more sought after. I mean they are AFAIK the best single item for an arcane spell caster. So why isnt every damn wizard looking for them?
Because some wizards feel there are better uses for their time than a fruitless quest for something that may fry their mind if they find it, and that will get them killed by rivals if they survive.
Let's not forget, either, that it's not like the Nether Scrolls can be found on Amazon.com -- anyone looking for even a single scroll would likely have to devote years of research and poking around in ruins to have a chance of finding one. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 20:26:02
Well yes this could be. I have always taken to Two set idea a canon, and so never thought on the possibility of more sets.
But one thing that seems strange to me is, that they are not more sought after. I mean they are AFAIK the best single item for an arcane spell caster. So why isnt every damn wizard looking for them?
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 00:20:59
I've always held there had to be at least three sets, since there were three races working on them. The Golden set belonged to the Sarrukh, the Silver the Aeriee, and the (unknown) copper for the Batrachi.
The Imaskarna were of a similar nature, and devised by the Fey, but like everything fey they were cloaked in illusions to appear as something else.
Which leaves just the humans... where are their 'ancient tomes of tremendous power'? |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 10 Apr 2014 : 23:55:44
So you need the Nether Scroll...
Fact is the Nether Scroll like all artifacts need a kick ass story and/or villain to justify why they are there. But if you need them, here are some options:
1. The Missing Sets
Who said there were only two sets of scroll? It is possible for there to be more. However, to justify why these missing sets have not been seen for all of this time, you need a good reason as well as protection for the set of scrolls.
2. Divine Intervention
Certain gods might have their own set, have the ability to duplicate them, or gather them mystically. The game is how do you convince the divinity to perform these actions. What schemes, bribes, threats, offers and so on could move the gods in your favour.
3. There is more then one kind of sword
Swords, knives and so on are all based on the same designs. Point end and sharp edges go into enemies. The Nether Scrolls were an attempted by a group of some of the most ancient races of Faerun to gather all known magic and compile it into one collective understanding of magic. This doesn't mean that anyone else afterwards might not had a similar ideas. Perhaps some with the same or similar effects, some with completely different effects.
Just some brewing ideas, you don't need to use them.... |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 17:46:11
And this was considered canon even though in an adventure? Ok... did not think so.
Thanks for all the information. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 18:07:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The Quess'Ar'Teranthvar was destroyed in 1375 DR after it was stolen by shadovar. It's an adventure module in and of itself.
Only thing I would question about this is did the destruction occur during the adventure or was set as the opening of the adventure?
My view at least such is canon only if the module states it as history before the PCs interact in the adventure as canon. A module that sets up the design that the scrolls would 99.9 percent be destroyed during the adventure should not be canon.
The only reason I question this is my view of the Black Eagle Baron [1] module that expected the PCs to defeat and that option was later in sequel was expected to have occurred. When I reviewed the module it sounded to me that the PCs might support the Baron against his cousin the Duke because both appeared to be Evil in certain ways.
[1] Was BD&D module
I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. The Quess'Ar'Teranthvar was destroyed at the climax of the adventure but the scrolls that made up the tree were scattered all over Faerûn. The adventure doesn't say where they went, though the shades got their grubby mitts on two of them. Destroying the tree was the only way to stop the shadovar from gaining the entire set. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 08:51:16
I remember reading somewhere that they would reform when destroyed. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 22:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The Quess'Ar'Teranthvar was destroyed in 1375 DR after it was stolen by shadovar. It's an adventure module in and of itself.
Only thing I would question about this is did the destruction occur during the adventure or was set as the opening of the adventure?
My view at least such is canon only if the module states it as history before the PCs interact in the adventure as canon. A module that sets up the design that the scrolls would 99.9 percent be destroyed during the adventure should not be canon.
The only reason I question this is my view of the Black Eagle Baron [1] module that expected the PCs to defeat and that option was later in sequel was expected to have occurred. When I reviewed the module it sounded to me that the PCs might support the Baron against his cousin the Duke because both appeared to be Evil in certain ways.
[1] Was BD&D module |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 19:52:47
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In an article from Eric Boyd I found this info:
"One entire set, known to the elves as the Quess’Ar’Teranthvar and said to have been transformed by an elven High Mage into a slim, golden beech tree with leaves of gold, was held in Myth Drannor in Windsong Tower ere the City of Song was overrun by fiends, but its current location is not known. The fate of the other set of Nether Scrolls is wholly unknown, but, at various times over the years, a series of unsubstantiated claims have been made that one or two of the Nether Scrolls have been recovered, leading some sages to speculate that this set is no longer a single collection but individual scrolls scattered about the Realms."
EDIT: The "entire set" mentioned by Mr. Boyd would comprise 50 scrolls.
The Quess'Ar'Teranthvar was destroyed in 1375 DR after it was stolen by shadovar. It's an adventure module in and of itself. |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 11:14:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ahem ... check this old scroll ...
Thanks that was very helpful.
So... The rest is just in unknown locations... interesting. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 17:24:02
I wouldn't expect fake scrolls to exceed the power of the originals... To contain lore unknown in the originals, yes, but the Nether Scrolls are artifacts, so it's going to be hard to top that without being another artifact. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 13:20:04
It is also possible for fake Nether Scrolls to exceed the knowledge and power of their original counterparts. I wouldn‘t discount the possibility when considering that magic has inevitably grown more sophisticated since the originals were wrought, new spells and artifacts have appeared since the early days of ancient Netheril, and we know (or at least suspect) that at least of few of the “new“ scrolls were crafted by Mystra herself.
Of course this assumes that the original scrolls were limited to the magic of their era, unable to evolve or change. It‘s not impossible that they are (individually or collectively) living, sapient items in themselves. It‘s not impossible that they are manifestations of Mystra‘s magical essence, sort of like a copy of her sourcecode or DNA.
But yeah, the vast majority of fake Nether Scrolls would likely be vastly inferior. Not necessarily useless and cheap knockoffs (they might encode entire spellbooks or arcane thesis of immense value!), unless compared vs the originals. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 02:17:12
And it's entirely likely that more than one fake Nether Scroll has popped up over the years, either to fleece the foolish out of gold or to set up a trap for the ambitious mages that would crawl out of the woodwork at the chance to own one... |
| Barastir |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 01:35:26
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
THanks... I was referring to that two sets was created in the beginning. One was stolen and turned into the Golden Beach Tree, in the Windsong Tower in Myth-Drannor, and that basically the other 50 pages/ scrolls was lost.
I got it, Nicolai. However, the first references were from sources earlier than the Netheril boxed set, and back then the scrolls were very different. As far as I know, the Netheril from the boxed set is very different from Ed's original, and probably the scrolls took this "original" form years after these older sources were written. However, I'm not sure if Ed's version of the scrolls would be like super-powerful spells, like the ones described in 1e Lords of Darkness.
EDIT: Just to explain that it is probable that these other scrolls are part of the 50 missing pages... Although it is very likely that other scrolls, maybe with exotic or powerful spells, would be dubbed "Nether scrolls".
 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 23:14:35
I, personally, wouldn't be surprised to find lesser copies out there... They would be greatly scaled down in power and scope, of course, and the knowledge on them may be incomplete or even flawed. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 22:55:29
I however do wonder if there actually might be more sets that are unknown of. Lore has only indicated 100 pages (two sets) the second copied from the first. If the first could be copied, there clearly could have been another copy or many made that are unknown. This could also explain why some adventurers might find the same page in different places. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 22:39:36
Ahem ... check this old scroll ... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 21:30:15
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I have read(dont recall where) that Larloch owns 19 pages from the lost set. But that Mystra created some pages for him, meaning that there is actually more that 100 pages combined.
I do not recall reading either of those bits of lore. The latter one I find quite unlikely, though. I actually find it somewhat unlikely that Larloch has 19 pages, but I am far more skeptical about Mystra having created more of them. |
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