| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| rodrigoalcanza |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 15:11:55
Hello!
Does anyone know what the original idea of #8203;#8203;Ed Greenwood for the Forgotten Realms cosmology? The Great Wheel was canon for a long time, but it was not created by Ed. The Great Tree is official now, but it was Ed who created or participated in its creation?
So if neither of the two cosmologies was the creation of Ed Greenwood, what was your original idea (if he has already spoken about)?
Thank you! |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2014 : 03:55:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Fugue actually first appeared within The Prince of Lies, although only as a bit of setting for parts of the novel, not as a game location.
Actually, it dates back to third Avatar book, Waterdeep. It might have been earlier in the trilogy, as well, but it's definitely in the last book -- I just looked at the end of Waterdeep, in the Epilogue, and it is named there. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 22:58:44
The Fugue actually first appeared within The Prince of Lies, although only as a bit of setting for parts of the novel, not as a game location.
I would also treat it as an demiplane adjacent to the Ethereal which envelopes the Realms. Perhaps created by Ao, certainly affixed to the belief structure of the Faerûnian Powers. It is the (super)natural stopping point for souls departing the Realms, although travelers can access other planes without moving through it.
The Night Serpent dwells, at least in part, in a cave at the bottom of the fugue - happily consuming nightmares and any dead souls it is offered. This suggests a link with Yggdrasil (since this serpent is obviously a cognate of the Nidhogg serpent who gnaws on Yggdrasil‘s roots) and perhaps also the Grey Wastes (since it was also said to sometimes deal with hags for payment of lemures/larvae). There might be gateways to other Lower Planes, since baatezu also seem to have limited access to the Fugue, being able to offer last-minute bargains (or claims) to the Faithless (and other wayward souls) as an alternative to the Wall. I seem to recall mention of the River Styx or River Lethe or some other (Celtic?) River-of-badness flowing through “low ground“ on the Fugue, although I could be mistaken. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 08:16:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think hashimashadoo has the right of it.
Ed is big on 'additive design', not subtractive. He just added another layer on top of what was there.
True, but Gary's early planes were not detailed and with the Manual of the Planes coming years after Ed's game started (and Planescape even later) it would be logical that there is quite a bit of planar lore that has later been overwritten by canon. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 23:45:14
Wasn't the fugue plane just supposed to be somewhere on Hades? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 21:21:17
Me, I'd make the Fugue Plain a demiplane within the Ethereal plane, and have it linked to the Realms and to the domains of Realms deities. That allows it to fit into the Great Wheel. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 17:53:49
The earliest reference I can find for the Fugue Plane is in Faiths & Avatars page 2. The rules for the Faithless are there in the same reference. After a quick flip through I could not find a description of where the Fugue Plane is in relationship to the other planes. Cynosure is explicitly in the Ethereal Plane, as most demiplanes were in 2ed, so I would assume the Fugue Plane is as well but that is not a guarantee. While the book uses the Great Wheel Cosmology, it appears both Cynosure and the Fugue are demiplanes are a function of Realmspace only, adding on to rather than contradicting the classic Great Wheel. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 23:38:57
Well, the Fugue Plane certainly didn‘t exist within the classic Great Wheel. Although I don‘t think Ed created it. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 20:29:05
I've never seen anything from Ed that exists outside the Great Wheel cosmology (though it would be an interesting question to pose to him, just in case he had some early ideas that he abandoned in favor of of the Wheel).
For myself, I meld the Great Wheel concept (I say concept because sages still debate on just how the Planes all 'fit' together) to the old Immortals boxed set. Meaning, every deity, even a newly ascended mortal, gets a plane for themselves. In addition to this, most pantheons have a 'common' plane they hold in concert with each other. So, the Greek pantheon holds the plane of Olympus in common, but each deity has their own home plane as well. In addition, Olympus may hold 'homes' for other non-Greek gods who wish to do business with them. Olympus becomes a sort of United Nations location for them. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 24 Jan 2014 : 16:41:36
Actually the Great Tree Cosmology got cut down by the 4e Axis Cosmology. |
| Dreamstalker |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 19:08:37
For my Pathfinder conversion/homebrew I have returned to a modified Great Wheel cosmology for FR. I also use a heavily modified crystal sphere and phlogiston setup for the Prime Material Plane. Planescape and earlier planar influences have a great wealth of material to plumb for Forgotten Realms. The great number of characters and plot hooks provide strong fodder. It probably suffers from being more cosmopolitan than Ed Greenwood's initial concepts, but is more accurate to official D&D publication history prior to the major 4E changes.
The Great Tree cosmology of 3.5 was a solid interpretation but was a bit too solitary for previous important lore. This probably makes it more accurate to pre-publication versions other than the high-powered fantasy nature of 3.x. This option is a pick and choose what fits approach.
The Dawn War of 4E was also a solid cosmology but suffers from heavily contradicting previous lore, especially that of deities. It probably would have been better if the Dawn War was further separated from Abeir-Toril itself and making the Primordial-God conflict less relevant and active in the mortal history of FR.
Really either can fit well with Ed's earliest concepts, and other ideas can be molded around it as well. Even foreign worlds are unnecessary with a little work. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 18:23:43
I think hashimashadoo has the right of it.
Ed is big on 'additive design', not subtractive. He just added another layer on top of what was there. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 22 Jan 2014 : 17:02:39
If I remember right (and it's a distinct possibility that I don't) Ed was perfectly happy using the same cosmology as core DnD. It was only the specific deific realms amongst those planes that he came up with. |
