| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 08 Jan 2014 : 23:59:34
What is the name of the mountain in Baldurs Gate outer city?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/08-21-13_DEV64_MurderBaldur'sGate_BaldursGateMap.jpg |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 22:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
for the moment, I'll call it Mount Balduran.....
I just picked through every bit of info I have on the place, and although there is a whole section of the setting guide dedicated to the Outer City which literally wraps around that peak - is smack-dab in the middle of the map for that area - no part of that section mentions it at all. Its bizarre. More towards the front of the book it states that Baldur's gate is a 'City built on a hill', and in various text throughout it mentions how the structures within the city are lower near the water and 'climb the slopes' as you move away from the water front. At first, I though this only meant to the right(east), which would make sense because that's where the promontory is, and I figured the map was just not reflecting this adequately (it wouldn't be the first time text didn't match illustrations).
However, the way the other side of the city (left/west) is described, as well as the northern section, indicates that ALL of it increases in altitude as you move away from the water, indicating the harbor is sitting in a bowl, which is weird, considering its called "a city on a hill" (ya know, because they're kind of opposites LOL). A hill with a 'dent' in it? 
Also, you have 'bluffs' (cliffs) on both river banks, indicating high elevations of both sides with the river cutting through it. So this tells me the northern side of the river is probably hilly, but more like 'rolling hills', thus we don't really see it on maps and its not a named feature, and the highest point therein - the only point high enough to actually be called a true 'hill' would be the one they built the city on the slopes of, very much how Waterdeep is layed-out. The main difference being, the city continued to expand in all directions, away from the 'hill', including across the harbor and even around the base of the hill itself (probably due to the nifty bridge on the other side). Yet, because of the surrounding 'hilly' terrain, the other parts of the city also climb a slope, albeit not as steep.
So two observations: given enough time it will become terraced and Baldur's Gate will look VERY MUCH like Waterdeep (with building going almost to the top of the hill), and since the hill IS the city (as far as the locals are concerned), if they reference it at all they'd probably just call it something like Baldur's Peak.
So, no mountain - the artwork is beautiful, but doesn't really convey whats going on there. I did find some VERY interesting fodder for another thread, though. 
It also might be the closest thing to a 'modern' city The Realms has - its extremely cosmopolitan, with 'ghettoes' (cultural and racial sub-districts). In fact, 'Little Calimshan' is even walled-off separately like its own little town. That makes it very much like a modern city with outlying 'suburbs', something you really don't see elsewhere in FR. So its like an enclosed city surrounded by a dozen or more villages, some of them racial-specific (dwarves, gnomes, Hin, etc.), and the bridge itself - Wyrm's Crossing - could be considered its own Town. Interesting. |
| Satyrfey |
Posted - 17 Apr 2018 : 07:30:41
Just coming over to find out about the resolution of this, and it's been MANY years since this thread was active, and the mountain has gained height in the SCAG illustration but is not referenced... damn. Lol |
| pukunui |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 09:20:15
Did anyone ever ask Ed about this? Or get any sort of official answer from anybody? (EDIT: If not, I've asked Steve Winter - who wrote the MiBG adventure - if he knows anything about it. I'll post his response when I hear back from him.)
I'm wondering if maybe it was just artistic license - perhaps Mike just put it there to help explain why the Outer City was strung out along the road to Wyrm's Crossing instead of filling all that space that's just blank on the old maps.
I think it's worth mentioning that the old maps of Baldur's Gate - like the one in the FRA book - don't have the inner wall, either. It's just one big city. The inner wall *is* mentioned in the campaign guide, though I note that it's been retconned into being the city's original wall that Balduran himself ordered be built.
It's odd that the hill/mountain is not mentioned anywhere. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 08:06:46
The only map with any indication of Baldur's Gate's elevation is the one on p87 of the FRA. While the eastern side of the city does seem like it could be at a slightly higher elevation than the west side, it is only the west side of the city where there's any indication of a significant slope and that just appears to be the land flowing down into a narrow beach starting from the western corner of the Old Wall and sloping down to the river.
As for the Wyrm's Crossing Bridge, I believe that was a fabrication of the original Baldur's Gate computer game. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 03:40:02
I would imagine he is under NDA, at least until 5e comes out.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
naaah we're just arrogant nobles now,
Quite right... now lets go flog some serfs.  |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 23:27:37
Thanks everyone for your inputs. I had also looked at the FRCS and Volos as well as Murder in Baldur's Gate adventure but found nothing on this montain. I asked Mike Schley, the artist who did the map, for any insights. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 22:37:24
naaah we're just arrogant nobles now, |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 21:27:03
You know what? I've been comparing this (city) map to older ones, and they cut-off at that point - yet those two roads are in the same two spots. At first, I thought I found a problem, but NO - there is a tiny village outside the walls that the lower road connects to. If that wasn't there, that 'low road' wouldn't make any sense with the hil in-place.
So if the new map makes perfect sense when compared to the old, and there are no inconsistencies as far as we can tell (and kudos for that - someone did their homework), then that hill could have been there all along. Not only that, but it would help explain something I've been wondering about - why was the main road a mile or so east of the city? If the bridge was there all along (as I suspect, because of its enormity), then more recent human settlers (in the past milenia) wouldn't have been able to build a settlement AT the bridge because of that hill - they would have built as close as possible, AND where a nice natural harbor lay.
Thus, the bridge is ancient (and probably giant or dwarf-built), and the city came later, and was constructed at its present spot, taking advantage of the fine anchorage available. That would be the only logical reason a (Medieval level) town would spring-up away from the main tradeway. Normally, such roads ran through the settlements. Having them go around cities is a fairly modern contrivance.
So, if the bridge is some old artifact of another culture, then I am even more curious about what lies beneath our mysterious hill.
Musings:
And I hope they don't call it a mountain - Paizo got taken to task by a lot of smart people because someone over there DIDN'T do there homework, and they have mountains that are canonically TOO HIGH for their bases to support. The taller a natural phenomena is, the wider the base must be. Basic engineering and mathematics right there. The PF maps for Darkmoon Vale are all screwed up because of that (and their official answer to folks questions over how the mountains can be so high is... "go with whatever you think it should be").
At least they're honest - there is no fix for that (except "It's Magic!") to fit on the maps, the mountains must be about half their canon height, and yet there are rules in the source material for hypothermia at certain altitudes (because that is supposedly the highest peak in Avistan!)
So, when designing a planet for a group of nerds, always do your homework. Fantasy is not folklore - we are no longer ignorant peasants.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 20:23:56
Bear in mind, also, that Iriaebor is a PORT CITY... What that means is that the River Chionthar - all the way up to Iriaebor - is NAVIGABLE by ship. That means that bridge is a pretty damn huge one, because large ships need to pass under it. Possibly dwarf-built, in times-of-olde?
Maybe goods need to be transferred from sea-going vessels to large barges at that point? That could explain why the city has now expanded around the bridge itself on the newest map - the goods are taken off ships in the harbor, carted across town, and then placed on barges at a new, secondary (river) harbor?
Whatever the case, that large hill (too small to be a mountain) is definitely new, and the city has grown to encompass it and the bridge (and probably that small fishing village on the other side of the river).
EDIT: And this particular discussion has made me realize I left Gullykin off of my most recent map of the North. Thats a total of three that map is missing now. {sigh} A cartographers work is never done (but I do love it so). |
| Libelnon |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 18:20:48
Looking at the hill, though, I don't think it could be natural; geographically, a hill that size would cause quite a major meander in a flatland river, which probably wouldn't allow it to be deep enough to harbor a fully-grown port metropolis like Baldur's Gate, so I'm assuming it is magical in origin. At least, that's my two cents.
Based on that, I think the only way of getting a name for it would be to ask Ed. From the collective efforts here, there doesn't seem to be any mention of it outside of Murder in Baldur's Gate. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 17:11:46
Or any Earthmote, for that matter. Thats a distinct possibility. It could be something that just appeared there (which happened a LOT), or even be something Ed had in his original campaign, that has now been 'restored' after The Sundering (which means its guaranteed to be NDA right now).
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
I don't think it looks like a garbage mound, lol!
Markustay is referring to The Spellplague: The Wailing Years. He's right that the original article is hard to come by these days. Luckily, the Brian R. James provided the full-text of that article on this very website!.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10705
Actually I was referring to the article I named - "The Year of the Ageless one", by Richard Baker. I don't see the info about BG in that one (although TY for pointing it out). All I remember was that the city became a HUGE refugee camp for all the people left homeless by the changes wrought to central Faerūn (the lands between Turmish and The Sword Coast).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Libelnon
I can't find any evidence of a hill or mountain near Baldur's Gate in the books I have, but they're all pre-Spellplague. Perhaps it was spawned by the Spellplague itself?
There's nothing in the earlier lore that I could find, either... But the flipside of that argument is that none of the earlier material on Baldur's Gate mentioned anything in the surrounding area.
I should think the sudden appearance of a mountain would get some mention.
Yes, it should, but with all the 'magical upheaval' we have had since 1e, that could have 'arrived' at any point in time. It could be a crashed beholder-hive, for all we know (or another Netherese Enclave?) It could even just be that all major cities are now getting the 'mountain right next door' treatment, for no other reason then to make the mandatory Undermountain product 'use anywhere'. LOL - they could even all have their own 'little Halaster'.
As for the surrounding terrain - I tried to fill some of that in with the computer game info... but it was pretty bad. Not the lore itself, but the maps - some of them didn't even look like part of The Realms, let alone the BG region. Ulgoth's Beard is always placed incorrectly, there is an unnamed "fishing village" right on the other side of the river (that might be it on the map the OP posted - it may have merged with the city-proper by 1479 DR), and distances are totally whack. I was able to translate stuff from one halfway decent (BG-CG) map, but try making sense of THIS ONE! Where did that sea come from? And where did Tethyr go? Thats just a gawd-awful mess. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 16:24:17
Maybe Skarn Rock became an earthmote, drifted over the city, got flipped over somehow and fell back to earth. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 14:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by Libelnon
I can't find any evidence of a hill or mountain near Baldur's Gate in the books I have, but they're all pre-Spellplague. Perhaps it was spawned by the Spellplague itself?
There's nothing in the earlier lore that I could find, either... But the flipside of that argument is that none of the earlier material on Baldur's Gate mentioned anything in the surrounding area.
I should think the sudden appearance of a mountain would get some mention. |
| Libelnon |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 13:15:06
I can't find any evidence of a hill or mountain near Baldur's Gate in the books I have, but they're all pre-Spellplague. Perhaps it was spawned by the Spellplague itself?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 04:36:06
Just looked in Murder in Baldur's Gate, Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, and Forgotten Realms Adventures... It is curious, but none of them name that mountain!
I think a question to Ed is in order, though you could always wing it and assume it's Mount Balduran. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 04:23:53
for the moment, I'll call it Mount Balduran..... |
| Thorn Illance |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 01:26:18
I don't think it looks like a garbage mound, lol!
Markustay is referring to The Spellplague: The Wailing Years. He's right that the original article is hard to come by these days. Luckily, the Brian R. James provided the full-text of that article on this very website!.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10705 |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 00:49:25
A garbage mound? Waterdeep has one of those (several, in fact, called 'The Rat Hills').
Or maybe its a huge, post-plague burial mound. One of the few bits of lore I recall from before 4eFR was actually released was that one article that dealt with all the time that had passed (the very first time we became aware of the century time jump - it was quite a shock!) I think it was entitled "Year of the Ageless One", or some-such.
Anyhow, in it they described how refugees had flocked to Baldur's Gates, and camps were setup all outside its walls. Now imagine THAT, with plague (both spell and mundane) running wild - camps full of homeless and desperate people... and the kind of folk who prey upon them. It was probably VERY bad there, for quite awhile. I can definitely see mass graves being dug.
What you see there just might be the saddest monument to the Collapse of the Weave in all of Faerūn. 
EDIT: Can't seem to find that article anymore. I think they pulled most of them from that period (I know they were going back and editing the hell out of them for awhile, when folks started picking them apart). EDIT@ It could be behind the paywall - it seems to have been part of Dragon #362 (which is weird, since Dragon was free during that time). Those early 'magazines' weren't compiled, so I wouldn't even know how to find that anymore.
Looking closer at that map, the road that used to pass just east of BG (where the bridge is) isn't even shown - it appears the road itself is buried under whatever the heck that thing is. Either they built (or need to build) a road around it, or the road goes through it... which has interesting possibilities.
The Bridge itself is called 'Wyrm's Crossing', although I'm not sure if Ed ever answered my queries about it. |
| Thorn Illance |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 00:26:38
Is it a mountain? It doesn't appear in the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, the printed Atlas, FRA, or any of the campaign guides/setting books.
So maybe the result of a titanic battle during the Wailing Years? Or something to do with the lead-up to "Murder in Baldur's Gate"?
It's a mystery to me! |
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