| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Berkthgar |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 00:39:25
What was jarlaxle's history with zak, his house allegiance, etc? Was he beanre? How did he get so elevated in society without ever really being challenged by any other drow?
Was jarlaxle evil before or did he always have a code of honor? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 03:11:49
And yet his defection, exile, and eventual return and the wars that resulted from all of the above certainly were! |
| BEAST |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 17:41:54
I would not call Malice incompetent. I would call her self-absorbed and inadequately reverent to the Way of Lolth. She paid lip service to Lolth when it was convenient and would help her. But whenever she perceived it to hurt her, she rationalized disobeying it. Malice definitely had the concern for station which Drizzt says is so characteristic of the drow deeply imbedded in her mind.
So that earned her a meteoric rise to the last chair in the Ruling Council. And then she got all eight of her legs plucked off.
When I say that she thought Lolth would be merciful, I mean that Malice perceived a danger to her house most of the time if she were to kill Zak for his irreverent ways, or if she were to kill her last baby, Drizzt, and she figured that Lolth would be sympathetic if the matron mother chose not to kill those males. Never mind the law/tradition--Malice didn't want to, and she unilaterally determined that Lolth would see eye-to-eye with her on these various acts of disobedience. Time and time again, Malice thought that the needs of her one house trumped the Way of Lolth.
This is not the perspective of someone in awe and fear of a terrible deity. This is the perspective of a self-absorbed individual who creates a deity in one's own image, as a kind of long-suffering, caring parent-figure. Malice made it all about herself.
And I think Lolth was amused by such brazenness for a time.
And then she wasn't.
quote:
"It has never been truly decided whether House Do'Urden was a favored house of Lloth, or simply a pawn in the Spider Queen's unending game of chaos and perverted pleasure."
This last bit, to me, says it all. It explains both why Lolth gave the appearance of accepting Malice for so long, and why she found displeasure with Malice at times, and why House Do'Urden was ultimately destroyed. Malice provided the fickle goddess with a source of amusement, so the deity kept House Do'Urden around for several centuries as the ambitious matron mother played the social game in Menzo and worked her way up the ladder, while simultaneously brazenly breaking a lot of Lolth's own rules along the way. Lolth admired Malice's self-serving, disobedient chutzpah for a long time.
But she did not do so forever. Her utterly non-Lolthite son Drizzt was the last straw. Things weren't so amusing for Lolth, anymore. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 15:44:18
The House Do'Urden retrospective from the 2E box has some good info to reference. Just a couple excerpt here:
"Strongly supported by House Baenre (#1), which further invites question about the house's standing with the Spider Queen."
"It has never been truly decided whether House Do'Urden was a favored house of Lloth, or simply a pawn in the Spider Queen's unending game of chaos and perverted pleasure."
"Malice also knew how to play the intrigue within the city. Often she got her children placed in important positions at the Academy or in patrol groups. Matron Baenre usually nodded her approval
whenever Matron Malice's name was mentioned, and there could be no doubt, with Lloth and the First Matron Mother's
approval, that House Do'Urden would continue its climb.
Even more to the Spider Queen's pleasure was the way in which Malice handled Zaknafein, her weapon master (arguably the finest fighter in all of Menzoberranzan), who was not so loyal to drow ways;in fact,
Zaknafein despised Lloth, despised his race in general, and best served Malice when he was slicing his swords through the hearts of
drow priestesses. Malice played her former patron well, though, using Zaknafein's incredible skills to convert her drow soldiers into a crack, elite unit."
and
"Fiercely ambitious, conniving, loyal only to Lloth, ruthless in the extreme, Malice was, by all accounts, the perfect Matron Mother . If not for fate (spell that D-R-I-Z-Z-T), Malice would have no doubt
been a worthy addition to the Ruling Council."
I think Malice walked a dangerous line with Zaknafein, but it must have worked for several centuries as apparently the Spider Queen approved of her handling of him. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 13:00:46
I would say that the only reason Zak was allowed to live was because he was the greatest swordsman in all of Menzo. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 11:49:49
I'm inclined to agree with Beast on this one. It's been a long time since I've read Homeland or Exile, and you couldn't pay me to repeat either experience, but to my recollection, I can't imagine Malice as anything other than incompetent. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 10:26:26
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
She was never really in control of her house. She failed to properly vet Zak through the Blooding ritual, but instead let him be irreverent and sacrilegious for most of his life. Homeland says that Lolth had been angered by this on numerous occasions. Malice violated lots of rules over the years, and rationalized that away, because she thought the situation necessitated it, and because she apparently thought tha Lolth was merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand. This was always about Matron Malice wanting what was convenient to her, and expecting Lolth to look the other way on her behalf.
So I'm not surprised at all that Lolth let her work her way right up to the Ruling Council, and then told her that she was still out of favor, and then let her get whacked.
LOL. Have to disagree with your interpretation again Beast. I frankly see no evidence in the books or game that Malice in any way thought Lloth to be "merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand". If anything we are actually told outright that Malice was generally held in high regards by the Spiderqueen, and that she was one of the most capable Matrons in Menzo., when it came to predicting the will of the Spiderqueen, and navigating the constantly shifting whims of the goddess of chaos.
It's true that Zaknafein often skirted the line of true sacrilege, and that he was often irreverent. It's also true that it got him in hot water on a few occassions (one such described in Realms of the Underdark book, as I recall). But fact is that he managed to extricate himself from those problems every time (else he'd have been killed prior to Homeland). His transgressions can't have been serious enough for him to be killed immediately though, because in that case he would have been. Menzo. is not forgiving of males that step too far out of line, and Malice would not have hesitated to sacrifice him, if his actions had endangered House Do'Urden's favour with the Spiderqueen, during the time he was her consort and Weaponmaster of her House.
At the end of the day, I think our difference here boils down to our perception of Malice. As I read you, you believe that she was incompetent and misread the will of the Spiderqueen time and again. I, on the other hand, believe that Malice was in fact very skilled and a highly capable Matron Mother, but her ultimate downfall was Drizzts utter unwillingness to conform. Had Malice been able to understand Drizzt's true nature, she would not have accepted Zaknafein's offer to take his place as sacrifice, as she would have know that Drizzt did not covet the position as Weaponmaster of the House, and that Zaknafein's sacrifice would become his primary focus, rather than the opportunity offered by his death (as most other Drow would probably have done). Had Malice understood just how alien Drizzt's mindset was, compared with other Drow, he would have been sacrificed, and House Do'Urden would have been back in the Spiderqueen's favour, and would have found victory in their war and a place on the Council.
|
| BEAST |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 20:12:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Malice was proven to not be in control of her House, and thus not fit to rule, and thus she personally then also needed to prove her worthiness to the Spiderqueen again.
She was never really in control of her house. She failed to properly vet Zak through the Blooding ritual, but instead let him be irreverent and sacrilegious for most of his life. Homeland says that Lolth had been angered by this on numerous occasions. Malice violated lots of rules over the years, and rationalized that away, because she thought the situation necessitated it, and because she apparently thought tha Lolth was merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand. This was always about Matron Malice wanting what was convenient to her, and expecting Lolth to look the other way on her behalf.
So I'm not surprised at all that Lolth let her work her way right up to the Ruling Council, and then told her that she was still out of favor, and then let her get whacked. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 16:25:23
According to Matron Baenre, Lolth once held Malice in the highest regard. Considering how pleased she was with House Do'Urden, I had always assumed this had something to do with the destruction of House DeVir. House Baenre, being the First House and according to the 2E Menzo book was able to break some of rules that the rest of the city held by, with Lolth's support. I would also say that Matron Baenre was noted as doling out surviving nobles to other houses in the city, we just didn't see any of that happen in a novel.
The fun thing about novels is they allow everyone their own interpretation of events like these. Maybe someday Bob will give us more lore and info. :) |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 15:52:03
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Recall that the yochlol told the priestesses of House Do'Urden that Lolth was not pleased with one in her house before Drizzt fled from Menzo (Homeland), and even 10 years later, House Do'Urden still had not found the favor of Lolth, for Drizzt was still free (Exile). While the handmaiden made Lolth's displeasure cryptically known 10 years prior, Lolth didn't actually do anything about it, if at all, until much later.
Recall that the yochlol only reported Lolth's displeasure to Malice when Drizzt was already 31 years old, but he had been displaying irreverent, non-Lolthite behavior since his teens. Why wait half his lifetime to say anything?
Recall also that the noble survivors of the victim houses in inter-house wars were supposed to be killed on sight, and yet Matron Baenre took some surviving noble children into House Baenre--with impunity (Homeland). Why no summary punishment there, either?
I would say that the unreliability and irregularity of the timing of Lolth's verdicts and or sentences is a classic sign of her chaotic nature.
But of course, all are free to continue to disagree.
In respect to the couple of examples you refer to her, the Yochol tell Malice outright that her house is out of favour, though it does not tell her the reason, but as I recall it rather tells her off by telling her that the Spiderqueen doesn't answer questions where the answer is/should already be known. Malice and har daughters then discover that Drizzt's mercy towards the elven child, as Drizzt tells Zaknafain about during one of their fights, while they are being scryed.
Why wait 31 years to make the displeasure known to Malice? Simple. The house isn't out of favour until Drizzt acts in outright defience of the edicts of the Spiderqueen by sparing the elven child. One of THE number one mortal enemies of Lloth. We can argue that Drizzt has been engaging in non-typical Drow behaviour since his teens, but frankly his behaviour hasn't been outright sacreligious up until the surface raid.
As for Lloth's acceptance of house Baenre adopting some of the surviving children (and even the youngest of Drizzt's sisters, as I recall), this is apparently common practice, and I would imagine that Lloth accept this behaviour as long as the offending house is destroyed, and as long as the adopted and spared individual isn't the direct individual who has transgressed against the Spiderqueen. As I view it, the stain of disfavour rests mainly with the transgressor him-/herself, and the House itself. Thus death of the deviant and destruction of the House allows other individuals within the House, who is not personally directly out of favour, to survive, by washing their hands of their family name/House, and joining another House.
Basically everything about the faith of Lloth and Drow society is somewhat fluent and what might be acceptable in one situation, will loose you the Spiderqueens favour in another situation. All the time you need to look behind the obvious and seek the true meaning behind the facade. Had Drizzt repented his actions during the surface raid, and had he made a sincere attempt at penance, I'm pretty sure that the sacrifice of Zaknafein would have been accepted, and House Do'Urden would have returned to the favour of Lloth. Zaknafeins sacrifice would hurt House Do'Urden (serving as punishment of the House, and being something of significant value), and Zaknafein was never a true follower of the Spiderqueen. As it were, Drizzt spat at the sacrifice of Zaknafein and turned his back utterly at his family and Lloth, thereby rendering the sacrifice pointless, and necessitating his own death. Malice was proven to not be in control of her House, and thus not fit to rule, and thus she personally then also needed to prove her worthiness to the Spiderqueen again. Unfortunately for her, she wasn't up to that task, and Drizzt remained beyond her grasp, and thus also redemption for her and her House.
P.S.
Merry Christmas everybody :-) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 02:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by khanio07
Was jarlaxle featured in realms of valor, I haven't read it
Nah, he wasn't in that anthology. But there was a Drizzt short story in that one called "Dark Mirror". It's one of the best Drizzt shorts. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 02:41:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-)
Recall that the yochlol told the priestesses of House Do'Urden that Lolth was not pleased with one in her house before Drizzt fled from Menzo (Homeland), and even 10 years later, House Do'Urden still had not found the favor of Lolth, for Drizzt was still free (Exile). While the handmaiden made Lolth's displeasure cryptically known 10 years prior, Lolth didn't actually do anything about it, if at all, until much later.
Recall that the yochlol only reported Lolth's displeasure to Malice when Drizzt was already 31 years old, but he had been displaying irreverent, non-Lolthite behavior since his teens. Why wait half his lifetime to say anything?
Recall also that the noble survivors of the victim houses in inter-house wars were supposed to be killed on sight, and yet Matron Baenre took some surviving noble children into House Baenre--with impunity (Homeland). Why no summary punishment there, either?
I would say that the unreliability and irregularity of the timing of Lolth's verdicts and or sentences is a classic sign of her chaotic nature.
But of course, all are free to continue to disagree. |
| Berkthgar |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 23:34:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-)
I agree the lady of chaos wouldnt have simply accepted drizzts death. Wherever drizzt goes, chaos insues.
Was jarlaxle featured in realms of valor, I haven't read it |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 22:21:12
Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-) |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:39:06
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
The sacrifice of the third born son is a customary tradition in Menzoberranzan. Tradition is not the same as dogma. Lolth, being a deity of chaos makes rules "set in stone" few, and uncertainty great. The scene you mentioned above is then followed up with Briza arguing that it would be worse to not sacrifice Drizzt and give Lolth what she was already promised (Drizzt). Maya then tells her to complete the deed, but Matron Malice stays her hand. Lolth accepted the sacrifice of Nalfein in leu of Drizzt is the only reason Drizzt is still alive. That was how Malice rationalized sparing the child.
We don't know that Lolth accepted the murder of Nalfein in lieu of Drizzt. We only know that Matron Malice considered the murder of Nalfein an acceptable substitute in lieu of the sacrifice of Drizzt.
Killing the first living son DNE killing the third living son. Sorry. They're apples and oranges.
It seems that Malice was viewing the tradition as "One must sacrifice the third living son, but at such time that there are no longer three living sons, one is then allowed to refrain from killing the son who formerly was the third living son." Nalfein wasn't a substitute, exactly, but his death did change the situation so that there were no longer three living sons of House Do'Urden. At that point, Matron Malice's opportunity to sacrifice the third living son had passed, and she couldn't kill the third living son, even if she wanted to.
So what did this mean for her? She failed to do her traditional duty. She failed to kill her third living son, when she had the chance. Her first born son was murdered during battle, and then Malice halted the sacrifice of her third born son. She then just let it go, and moved on. But that failure to follow the tradition, when she had the opportunity to do so, probably hung around her neck like a cursed albatross. And there was nothing else further that she could do about it, because the opportunity had already come and gone. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:30:45
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
RAS has it in black and white so I'm not sure why there would be any confusion. This is why Drizzt was allowed to live.
Actually, RAS had it in black and white in 1990--23 years ago. A whole lot of other black and white has been written on the subject since then, and it doesn't jibe with that first formulation 100%. Hence, the confusion. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:05:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
You know Beast, you and I seem to have a pretty different interpretation of that scene with Drizzt's death *LOL*
Lloth demand the sacrifice of every 3rd born son, but as an entity of chaos, I can quite easily follow the reasoning of Malice in Homeland after Drizzt's birth. The birth of the 3rd son has just taken place, and the sacrifice is about to take place. An older boy, however, is killed, and I frankly don't see it as a far stretch of the rules for Malice to deem that the conditions of the dictate have been met. The ultimate effect is the same. 1/3 of the sons born have been killed, and he's been killed A) around the right time, and B) in relation to an event centered around the birth (we know that the attack was timed with the birth of Drizzt, as they intended to use the birthing pain to fuel the magical attack upon the priestesses of the other house). So arguably the end result of the dictate has taken place, and a male soul has been sent to Lloth during an event related to the childbirth. It doesn't meet the dictates directly, but it's not a far stretch to say that it meets the conditions in spirit, and that a deity of chaos will accept that as "good enough". Malice and the rest of the House also remain solidly within Lloth's favour, right up until Drizzt elects to spare the elven child during the surface raid.
Well, Matron Malice apparently went most of her life doing things that she thought was "good enough".
At the end of Homeland, knowing that she was no longer in Lolth's favor because of her sacrilegious son, Malice was supposed to sacrifice Drizzt. But yet again, she substituted someone else in his stead, and killed his father Zaknafein.
And then it bit her in the arse. She entered into a ten-year-long war of nothingness with House Hun'ett, and even when she won, she was told that she still did not have Lolth's favor, and was forced to attempt the Zin-carla ritual. And that failed, too. And then she was terminated.
Just because Lolth does not punish someone immediately on the spot doesn't necessarily mean that she is pleased. (Even when someone does do what they're told immediately on the spot doesn't necessarily mean that she is pleased, either.) |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 15:38:32
The sacrifice of the third born son is a customary tradition in Menzoberranzan. Tradition is not the same as dogma. Lolth, being a deity of chaos makes rules "set in stone" few, and uncertainty great. The scene you mentioned above is then followed up with Briza arguing that it would be worse to not sacrifice Drizzt and give Lolth what she was already promised (Drizzt). Maya then tells her to complete the deed, but Matron Malice stays her hand. Lolth accepted the sacrifice of Nalfein in leu of Drizzt is the only reason Drizzt is still alive. That was how Malice rationalized sparing the child. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 13:31:08
“Queen of Spiders, take this babe.” she began. She raised the dagger to strike. “Drizzt Do’Urden we give to you in payment for our glorious vic..”
“Wait!” called Maya from the side of the room. Her melding with her brother Nalfein had abruptly ceased. It could only mean one thing. “Nalfein is dead.” she announced. “The baby is no longer the third living son.”
From Homeland.
RAS has it in black and white so I'm not sure why there would be any confusion. This is why Drizzt was allowed to live. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 11:42:56
You know Beast, you and I seem to have a pretty different interpretation of that scene with Drizzt's death *LOL*
Lloth demand the sacrifice of every 3rd born son, but as an entity of chaos, I can quite easily follow the reasoning of Malice in Homeland after Drizzt's birth. The birth of the 3rd son has just taken place, and the sacrifice is about to take place. An older boy, however, is killed, and I frankly don't see it as a far stretch of the rules for Malice to deem that the conditions of the dictate have been met. The ultimate effect is the same. 1/3 of the sons born have been killed, and he's been killed A) around the right time, and B) in relation to an event centered around the birth (we know that the attack was timed with the birth of Drizzt, as they intended to use the birthing pain to fuel the magical attack upon the priestesses of the other house). So arguably the end result of the dictate has taken place, and a male soul has been sent to Lloth during an event related to the childbirth. It doesn't meet the dictates directly, but it's not a far stretch to say that it meets the conditions in spirit, and that a deity of chaos will accept that as "good enough". Malice and the rest of the House also remain solidly within Lloth's favour, right up until Drizzt elects to spare the elven child during the surface raid.
P.S.
As a side comment to the previous debate about Matron Baenre and her children and their respective ages, bear in mind that though Gomph might be the oldest living son, he is not necessarily the first born of the Baenre children, and though we know that Jarlaxle is the 3rd born Baenre son, that does not mean that he could not be the i.e. 18th child born to his mother. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 01:38:33
Didn't the 2E Drow of the Underdark say the average drow will produce 10 children over the course of her life? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 01:06:12
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
The main thing is that those 66 drow houses represent the nobility of the drow world. Not every drow belongs to a house. They do have commoners. The drow we read about tend to be in the top 1% of their society, but there's a whole mass of ordinary people in Menzoberranzan who just go about ordinary lives that never really gets touched on. I mean all those soldiers fighting for the houses aren't actually members of those houses, they're servants of the houses; those servants have to be drawn from somewhere.
I'm not sure why that matters. If the commoner mothers had to kill their third living sons, as well, then we would still end up with an awfully lop-sided population . . .
. . . and a small number of extremely busy males.
quote:
It's also a point that the noble houses themselves should be a little bigger than they are. I don't know if Bob just didn't think about it early on, or it was just a conservation of detail that never got updated, but something that hasn't really been accounted for is branch houses;did Malice and old lady Baenree have no brothers or sisters themselves? If they did, did they have no children? Why were Malice's children so slow to produce offspring? Is there a rule stating only the matron mother's allowed to procreate?
Either The Last Threshold or Chaorn's Claw, I forget which, mentions Baenre cousins, and I suppose you could write off a general lack of inclusion of extended families by saying they're more prone to end up as casualties of inter-house rivalries than members of the main house, but it's something that just kind of paints the picture of smaller families than logically should exist.
This was briefly touched upon in the early drow books, as well. It was mentioned that whenever priestesses had children, they were sent out to form houses of their own.
Never mind her children: why was Malice so slow to produce children? Only 6 kids in 500 years?! Malice was a total cougar, so she shouldn't've had any problem getting knocked up, left and right. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 00:56:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But seriously, there are lots of ways to spin things. Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met. Lolth is all about chaos - some even theorize that Drizzt himself may be 'favored of Lolth', just because of his non-conformity.
Think about it - there is no 'right way' to interpret the signs of a fickle (chaotic) deity. You would be able to read into anything, and each follower could interpret it all differently (which is probably precisely what she wants - adversity makes her people stronger).
I have interpreted "third born" and "third living" son to be the same, in many cases.
But you are saying that Malice somehow interpreted "first born" to be the same as (or at least a fitting substitute for) "third born" and/or "third living" son. I don't get that at all.
Malice and her daughters equivocated, in a highly irrational sense. Now, I don't think many people would argue with a hormonal, war-crazed matron mother who had just popped out a kid and was still reeling from both war and childbirth, so I get why her daughters went along with it. But her explanation for not whacking Drizzt was still irrational.
If the law says to kill a baby murderer, and on the day of the execution a banker gets run over by a car and dies, the law demanding that the baby murderer be executed still has not been fulfilled or satisfied, no matter how one might tright to spin it. They're not the same people; it's not the same thing.
I'm with you on Lolth accepting it, though, since she's a goddess of chaos. I just think that we should recognize that that's apparently what was happening: Lolth was looking the other way when one of her matron mothers was flagrantly violating a law/tradition. And what Lolth giveth, Lolth taketh away. She turned around and smote Matron Malice later on, though, for a whole slew of blunders that she had amassed up to that point, and because her slipperiness had apparently ceased to be intriguing and entertaining. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:05:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met.
That was how I interpreted it, when I read it. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 19:06:02
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.
Oh, I think it would be an even worse ratio than that. Homeland said that there were 66 houses and an overall population of 20,000 drow in Menzo at the time of Drizzt's birth. So that would give us 66 matron mothers, and if each matron mother were only allowed 2 sons each, a total of 132 male drow in the entire city. 132 males in a city of 20,000? That gives us 132 males to 19,868 females, or a ratio of 1/150.5!
Damn, them dudes were busy! No wonder the males of Menzo couldn't mount a successful rebellion against the matriarchy: they would've been too worn out!
There's an issue with this line of thought, and I think it's an issue that has plagued drow as a whole for a lot of years.
The main thing is that those 66 drow houses represent the nobility of the drow world. Not every drow belongs to a house. They do have commoners. The drow we read about tend to be in the top 1% of their society, but there's a whole mass of ordinary people in Menzoberranzan who just go about ordinary lives that never really gets touched on. I mean all those soldiers fighting for the houses aren't actually members of those houses, they're servants of the houses; those servants have to be drawn from somewhere.
It's also a point that the noble houses themselves should be a little bigger than they are. I don't know if Bob just didn't think about it early on, or it was just a conservation of detail that never got updated, but something that hasn't really been accounted for is branch houses;did Malice and old lady Baenree have no brothers or sisters themselves? If they did, did they have no children? Why were Malice's children so slow to produce offspring? Is there a rule stating only the matron mother's allowed to procreate?
Either The Last Threshold or Chaorn's Claw, I forget which, mentions Baenre cousins, and I suppose you could write off a general lack of inclusion of extended families by saying they're more prone to end up as casualties of inter-house rivalries than members of the main house, but it's something that just kind of paints the picture of smaller families than logically should exist. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 15:57:16
Because we enjoy tearing apart his work every chance we get? 
But seriously, there are lots of ways to spin things. Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met. Lolth is all about chaos - some even theorize that Drizzt himself may be 'favored of Lolth', just because of his non-conformity.
Think about it - there is no 'right way' to interpret the signs of a fickle (chaotic) deity. You would be able to read into anything, and each follower could interpret it all differently (which is probably precisely what she wants - adversity makes her people stronger).
So Drizzt and Jaralxle could be mistakes... or.. they could be precisely what she's been wanting for a long time. Since their appearance on the surface, Drow have now gone from being 'kill on sight' monsters to people, and surface dwellers now look at them a bit differently. Jarlaxle even points this out to Drizzt. What better way to get close to your enemies then walk amongst them?
Lolth knows what she is doing. She's had many years to meditate on her past failures, and create new plans. She may have spoken directly to Matron Mother Malice, and told her, "I have plans for those two".
We just don't know what happens when the curtain closes - the bits of the story we never get to see. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 15:42:42
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I will find the passage in Homeland and post it when I get home. They were about to kill Drizzt when they found out his brother was killed so they held off. Now if RAS wants to go against what he wrote then fair enough but it is there in black and white.
As I already conceded, the way the tradition has been described or explained has evolved or changed over time. Methinks Bob got to thinking this through, and realized that a ratio of 1:150.5 just wouldn't work. So he modified it. No harm; no foul.
It's not exactly that he went against what he wrote earlier. When Drizzt came into the world as the third born son of House Do'Urden, he was, at that time, also the third living son of the House. So Matron Mother Malice was set to sacrifice both the third born and the third living son, at that time. Bob's further refinement of the tradition to specifically target third born sons doesn't contradict anything, so much as it refines or narrows it down a bit more. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
But that does still leave us with the task of figuring out what to do with Matron Malice's decision to halt the sacrifice of Drizzt. Do we, as you say, just chalk it up to Bob "going against what he wrote" earlier? Do we reduce it to writer and editor error? Or do we seek out an in-world, in-context explanation for it, in such a manner as to try to preserve the legitimacy of the lore as we have it, while still interpreting the characters' actions as being in-character?
I choose the latter.
Like I said, Matron Malice was supposed to test Zak earlier in life, but she didn't follow through on that, either. And he displayed an irreverent, sacrilegious bent throughout his life, but she tolerated it, and kept him alive, despite the insult to Lolth, her handmaidens, and her priestesses. So Matron Malice clearly wasn't above bending or outright breaking the rules, whenever it pleased her.
When we're told that Malice was sure that she would bear no more children after Drizzt, that she was cognizant and aware of the end of her fertility like that, then this makes me tend to think all the more that the she had ample motive to bend the rules yet again, when it came to deciding whether or not to kill Drizzt. She was only going to have 6 kids, and the Elderson had just suddenly died, leaving her with 4 at the time, so how in the Hells was she going to just blindly whack the next and last son, too? I see it as a moment of weakness, in the life of an emotionally insecure matron mother. It was just one more slight to the Way of Lolth, and yet another offense for Lolth's handmaidens to take into account against the matron mother. So she had the end of House Do'Urden coming to her, for a long, long time.
Isn't that a better, more elegant way to look at it, rather than throwing our hands up in the air and saying "Bob screwed up, again!"? |
| BEAST |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 15:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.
Oh, I think it would be an even worse ratio than that. Homeland said that there were 66 houses and an overall population of 20,000 drow in Menzo at the time of Drizzt's birth. So that would give us 66 matron mothers, and if each matron mother were only allowed 2 sons each, a total of 132 male drow in the entire city. 132 males in a city of 20,000? That gives us 132 males to 19,868 females, or a ratio of 1/150.5!
Damn, them dudes were busy! No wonder the males of Menzo couldn't mount a successful rebellion against the matriarchy: they would've been too worn out!
quote:
Strange, Kyorl's age is not mentioned in any source?
Nope, the best I could find was a reference to the time of her rue of House Oblodra, which was said to be from 961 to 1358 DR (Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue), which is 397 years. So she had to have been older than that, but by how much, I cannot say.
quote:
Another OT is that Triel was matron Baenre's eldest daughter. So either quite many childs have died prior to Homeland or Yvonnel was rather infertile in her earlier life.
Either that, or she was a prototype of the modern, professional woman, who puts her career first and decides to start a family later in life. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 14:17:18
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.
No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.
But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.
I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.
Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.
Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living.
I will find the passage in Homeland and post it when I get home. They were about to kill Drizzt when they found out his brother was killed so they held off. Now if RAS wants to go against what he wrote then fair enough but it is there in black and white. |
| Madpig |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 07:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.
No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.
But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.
I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.
Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.
Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living.
As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.
Strange, Kyorl's age is not mentioned in any source?
Another OT is that Triel was matron Baenre's eldest daughter. So either quite many childs have died prior to Homeland or Yvonnel was rather infertile in her earlier life. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 01:13:44
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.
No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.
But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.
I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.
Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.
Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living. |
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