| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 15:05:20
Who in their right minds would allow an embassy of the Shadovar in their own home?
I just read the entry on Akanul in Wiki. I’m away from my books, so I cannot verify if this is canon or not: “The shadovar of Netheril also had an embassy in Airspur, a fact which damaged relations with the western nations surrounding the Sea of Fallen Stars, such as Cormyr.” What do the genasi get from having a Shadovar embassy in their own turf? Get help with their campaign against the aboleths? An enemy of your enemy is your friend, sort of? Is that it? Or is there a more complex, convoluted political reason for this? Upon reading the BotG series, Qeen Arathane and the four Chief Stewards did not strike me as stupid, so why . . . ? |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 18:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Thyans , if you are not a zulkier, you are pretty expendable.
Zulkirs, if you are not named 'Szass Tam', you are also pretty expendable. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 14:17:21
I think the RW analogy begins and ends with the word "embassy" because in FR there is ... well ... magic.
In our world the ambassador can't teleport home as soon as you try to get him, in our world important politicians and heads of state don't need to worry about an ambassador taking a scrap of epithelium, a fallen hair or a bit of a fingernail to start scrying on them, in our world you don't need to worry about charmed/polymorphed spies/assassins replacing advisors and political figures, in our world an embassy can't gate in reinforcements, demons and whatnot in a matter of seconds and start ravaging your country.
And while each and every one of this events has certain countermeasures an host country can take, it soon escalates in a race for who has the best spellcasters and who wants to commit his country's best spellcaster just to have a shadovar handy, the pros have to be mightily good to justify this state of affairs.
On a related note, the thayan enclaves were never "embassies", they were "shops with our country's laws".
A lot of cities agreed to the terms because there wasn't any needed or unavoidable contact between important public individuals or kings/queens/seneschals/whatever and the thayans. They just sat there making your population addicted to the weekly flavor of new magical drug while the host got some taxes income and the thayan got more money for their experiments. For a lot of places with no strong morals that's a win/win situation considering the thayans aren't selling wands of fireballs or rings of invisibility or other potentially harmful (for the community) magic items (this was one of the rules of the enclaves and also a way to prevent anyone from buying items from you that could be used against you). |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 06:28:46
Thyans , if you are not a zulkier, you are pretty expendable. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 03:55:50
An Embassy is a sort of insurance as well if you will...
It is never good to start a war with a nation when your people are within reach of the military of that nation...and so one of the first signs of possible action is the withdrawal of an embassy.
This is not always the case; but history shows that a change in embassy staff can also foreshadow war...as less important dignitaries are installed "temporarily" as important individuals are returned home for "debriefing". |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 02:14:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's a Thayan enclave in Renton, Washington? In the same building as WotC?
Gads... they'll let anyone work for them...
{pssst... you should be careful how you word things) 
Cheeky monkey!
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| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 01:55:59
There's a Thayan enclave in Renton, Washington? In the same building as WotC?
Gads... they'll let anyone work for them...
{pssst... you should be careful how you word things) |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 01:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I quite agree; let's move on from the real-world politics, please.
With that in mind, here's a Thayan enclave at WotC: (free PDF)
https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/dragon/366/366_Rose_Keep.pdf
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 01:10:55
I quite agree; let's move on from the real-world politics, please. |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2013 : 00:12:42
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
quote:
IMHO, it is -really- inappropriate to try and start arguing technicalities over the Korean War on this forum. I don't know what your goal is, but you need to re-think why you're driving down this road. There are way too many issues involved with the U.N. to even begin discussing here, most of which are totally off-topic for this forum site. The bottom line is that the Armistice is with the U.N. because it was multinational - and presently, the U.S. is absolutely not engaged in active War efforts against North Korea.
As I really hate this type of argument method, you can't denounce it and then try to get the last word in . If you don't want the conversation to be devoted on this topic let it go, and let this be the last statement on the matter.
Yeah, ok. 
My intent was to suggest that we avoid the tangent of complex RL politics, not to shut down the primary discussion.
With that in mind, I'm publicly extending an apology to Kentinal. His note about the UN armistice is correct. At the same time, I think it's important to distinguish the UN vs. the USA when it comes to discussions of war in real life.
quote:
Assuming that USA is at war with the NK. An the fact that NK has a embassy in Mexico, if you do some research on a real life situation , it may be a good example on how to incorporate it into your roleplay, and how something as complex as politics and war, can be mimicked in your own game world
Again, if you're going to borrow complex RL politics as an inspiration for gaming, it might be important to have a complete picture of those politics. The US is not currently engaged in any active war effort against N-Korea. Yes, there is mutual aggression and saber rattling back and forth, but not an active state of "war" as most would define it.
Importantly, the original armistice is with the UN because that war was a UN-prompted, multinational war. Similarly, any peace treaty would also be UN-centric, not unilateral to the US. It's incredibly complex because the N-Koreans keep threatening to end the armistice and they also won't agree to de-nuclearization.
In any case, arguing RL politics isn't a good idea for this forum. I'm glad to continue with the original (non-tangent), though.
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| silverwolfer |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 23:11:07
quote:
IMHO, it is -really- inappropriate to try and start arguing technicalities over the Korean War on this forum. I don't know what your goal is, but you need to re-think why you're driving down this road. There are way too many issues involved with the U.N. to even begin discussing here, most of which are totally off-topic for this forum site. The bottom line is that the Armistice is with the U.N. because it was multinational - and presently, the U.S. is absolutely not engaged in active War efforts against North Korea.
As I really hate this type of argument method, you can't denounce it and then try to get the last word in . If you don't want the conversation to be devoted on this topic let it go, and let this be the last statement on the matter.
Assuming that USA is at war with the NK. An the fact that NK has a embassy in Mexico, if you do some research on a real life situation , it may be a good example on how to incorporate it into your roleplay, and how something as complex as politics and war, can be mimicked in your own game world
Edit: oh side note, am done with the topic myself, I made my point and have no need to argue it. |
| Therise |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 22:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And getting back to the Realms...
A question similar to that of the OP could be to wonder why nations allow the Red Wizard enclaves to be set up in their cities. It's obvious that the Thayans don't make the best neighbors...
I think it's probably something along these lines: traditionally, Red Wizard enclaves have been (at least on the surface) primarily organizations focused on trade. I know, yes, they have all sorts of underhanded and nefarious things going on under the surface. But how much more nefarious than, say, a thieves' guild or a really dodgy mercantile house?
So long as an enclave doesn't break any laws, they essentially set themselves up like a "little Italy" or "little China" which focus on unique magical trade goods. Both selling and acquisition. They aren't typically "representatives" of Thay in any official sense, unless the local leaders request this (or the Thayans do), which I haven't seen (at least in what I have read).
So... sell your wares, buy what you want, remain in good standing with the law (at least on the public surface), and all is good for a Thayan Enclave.
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| Therise |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 22:06:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Really off topic this last: The UN has an armistice with North Korea. A cessation of hostile military action , however a state of war.
IMHO, it is -really- inappropriate to try and start arguing technicalities over the Korean War on this forum. I don't know what your goal is, but you need to re-think why you're driving down this road. There are way too many issues involved with the U.N. to even begin discussing here, most of which are totally off-topic for this forum site. The bottom line is that the Armistice is with the U.N. because it was multinational - and presently, the U.S. is absolutely not engaged in active War efforts against North Korea.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 21:55:22
And getting back to the Realms...
A question similar to that of the OP could be to wonder why nations allow the Red Wizard enclaves to be set up in their cities. It's obvious that the Thayans don't make the best neighbors... |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 21:55:07
ooo it is in mexico, okay sorry about that, so you can maybe use that as a r/l reference of how to treat neighboring countries and the like, which are at war ( I don't really want to debate r/l politics here folks ) and then set that up on how it could translate to forgotten realms country politics. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 21:31:37
Really off topic this last: The UN has an armistice with North Korea. A cessation of hostile military action , however a state of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice
quote:
An armistice is a situation in a war where the warring parties agree to stop fighting. It is not necessarily the end of a war, since it might be just a cessation of hostilities while an attempt is made to negotiate a lasting peace. It is derived from the Latin arma, meaning weapons and statium, meaning a stopping.
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| Therise |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 20:04:22
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Not to mix much but usa allows north Korea to have an embassy even thou they are at war with each other.
Uhm, no we're not. The USA is not at war with North Korea. Tense relations, yes. War, no.
Additionally, the USA does not host a North Korean Embassy. Nor does North Korea host a USA embassy.
We do have USA- South Korea exchange embassies, but they are different countries. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 20:00:03
Saber rattling and war are two different things...we are certainly not at war with NK.
I see embassies as a double-edged sword. On one hand the hosting country basically allows (potential) spies within its borders. On the other hand, as Therise stated, the host provides itself with a compass point for detecting spies. It is assumed, I believe, that at least some spies within the host country will make contact with its embassy (although I think this would actually be a poor strategy for the spy). In the end, I think the pros out-weigh the cons when deciding to allow an embassy on a nation's soil...you get a quick means of communication for resolving differences before they escalate beyond the boiling point. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 13 Sep 2013 : 19:50:48
Not to mix much but usa allows north Korea to have an embassy even thou they are at war with each other. |
| Therise |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 01:20:48
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I prefer my pragmatic cynicism over your politically prosaic definition, Therise, although both opinions can be correct.
I‘m not certain that regular citizens would necessarily be thrilled by the active presence of soulless shades (and their shadowy agendas, dark magics, etc etc) in the heart of their city politics ... although of course those are exactly the sorts of (mis)conceptions the presence of such an embassy would intend to correct. Shadovar are not a very easy bunch to get along with, and their common image (rightfully) scares common people.
Well, I was speaking somewhat generally, of course. And I agree, all of your more... pragmatic reasons are an essential political component as well. You have to have the image, in order to have the functionality. 
With the Akanul specifically, having a Shadowvar embassy on their doorstep provides everything you mentioned and more. I'd argue that it's more desired by the rulers in Akanul, so they can have a direct line (if necessary) and also so they can watch what the Shadowvar get involved with in their city. It provides an on-site method to spy on them, watch their activities and their associations. To know these things informs the political elite in many ways.
Also, I wouldn't really call the regular citizens of Akanul "ordinary" and I sort of doubt that they'd be afraid of Shadowvar. After all, Akanul is populated with genasi who interact with elementals and such. If they were just common humans, there might be some apprehension.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 01:08:05
I prefer my pragmatic cynicism over your politically prosaic definition, Therise, although both opinions can be correct.
I‘m not certain that regular citizens would necessarily be thrilled by the active presence of soulless shades (and their shadowy agendas, dark magics, etc etc) in the heart of their city politics ... although of course those are exactly the sorts of (mis)conceptions the presence of such an embassy would intend to correct. Shadovar are not a very easy bunch to get along with, and their common image (rightfully) scares common people. |
| Therise |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 00:46:16
The purpose of any embassy is to facilitate communication between nations. An ambassador not only represents the interest of his (or her country) in fostering relations with the hosting nation, they also can help protect the rights or interests of visiting members of their country.
Diplomatic relations, increased speed of communication, clarifying intent and interests, there are many reasons to have an embassy in a country. You could even argue that an embassy becomes more important when the relations between two countries are less than ideal.
At minimum, the regular citizens of a hosting country get to interact with and see people from the other nation on a daily basis. They learn not to demonize the distant country because they get to interact.
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| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 00:39:48
“embassy“ = arena for political manipulation, bribes, and favours, plus (small) insurance against declarations of war
“ambassador“ or “diplomat“ = foreign spy
Shadovar are exceptional at winning wars, manipulation, bribing, and spying
Thus I conclude that many kingdoms would welcome Shadovar embassies. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 20:34:12
I'm with Drustan - as 'newbs', they really don't know the history, and probably just figured having the Shades on good terms is a smart choice.
Besides, RW I can point to hundreds of examples of exactly this - we have embassies of bitter enemies all over the place in Washington (I've been there - some are only a couple of doors down from each other). An embassy doesn't make someone an ally, it just means it is a nation you want to have an open diplomatic channel to.
EDIT:
And not to be snarky, but why worry about any of this at this point? Come 5e, all of it changes... again. I find it personally difficult to strive to make sense of lore thats about to get obliterated. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 18:14:59
That's true, but how much of this history of betraying 'allies' is actually known to the people of Akanul? They are a nation that's only been on Faerun for a little over a century, after all. Of course, from what little I've read about 4e, they probably couldn't have lasted as long as they have by being so naive as to think the Shadovar wouldn't turn on their allies if it benefited them in some way. Maybe the queen and the stewards are planning to use the Shades and then betray them . (Of course, if they think they can successfully do that, they really are a bunch of idiots.) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 16:15:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There could be trade, certainly a mutual foe would be a reason to have representative in another nation.
But with a nation that has a history of turning against their supposed “allies” in the end? Remember RotA and the Twilight War—what they did to Cormyr, Waterdeep, Evareska, and Sembia? They also had common “enemies” then. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 16:05:38
There could be trade, certainly a mutual foe would be a reason to have representative in another nation.
One other possibility could be a little easier to spy |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 16:02:47
I can be mistaken but doesn´t Airspur also have good ties to the Imaskari?
After the shades messed up their diplomatic attempts with them, maybe they try over neutral ground to get back on talking terms with them, furthermore i could see them keeping an eye on the actions of the aboleths since Xxiphu can appear right at their doorstep in Sembia and if the aboleths can destroy settlements on coastlines, what´s them to stop from doing it in Sembia aswell?
In return i would guess the Genasi get magical support in some way out of the deal. |
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