| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 23:14:50
I just stumbled upon something that I have read many times, but somehow never really got hold of what it said.
"... Reading even one nether scroll offers considerable insight into the Art. Any character studying one immediately gains one level in an arcane spellcasting class of her choice. (That is, her experience point total is set to the midpoint for her new level.)"
The quote is taken from Lost Empires of Faerûn.
If reading one gives one level then surely reading all fifty must give fifty levels... Right?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 00:23:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wholly support MT's idea of needing to learn (or create) unique new spells or feats as part of magical-item-making process. As a DM, I would sometimes go one step further and actually require a character learns some new spell or feat to be able to properly use/operate an item.
Agreed, more complexity is better ... or at least more consistent with old AD&D-style game flavour. Simplifying such career-highlight procedures into "just spend gold, subtract XP, and add water" PHB recipes might streamline the game focus towards other areas but (in my mind) diminished an exciting facet of what D&D is all about.
Yeah, in my opinion, 3E did a lot to take the wonder out of magic. It wasn't just with item creation, either -- it was with stripping creator names off of spells, using a one-size fits all approach for wands/rods/staves, and the simplified creation for magical items. It made the magical mundane and far less interesting.
And what I've read about residuum in 4E is worse, to me -- it makes it sound like MMO-type magical item creation. And I've done enough MMO crafting to know what that is like...
Please note this is not bashing editions; it's stating my opinions on very specific aspects of D&D rulesets in comparison to each other. 3.x may be my preferred ruleset, but 2E handled magic better. I want wonder in my magic, not an assembly line approach.
Another way it "simplified" magic is meta-magic feats replacing spells which did the same thing. I use quotes because I think it is actually much more complicated - just much more common. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 23:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I wholly support MT's idea of needing to learn (or create) unique new spells or feats as part of magical-item-making process. As a DM, I would sometimes go one step further and actually require a character learns some new spell or feat to be able to properly use/operate an item.
Agreed, more complexity is better ... or at least more consistent with old AD&D-style game flavour. Simplifying such career-highlight procedures into "just spend gold, subtract XP, and add water" PHB recipes might streamline the game focus towards other areas but (in my mind) diminished an exciting facet of what D&D is all about.
Yeah, in my opinion, 3E did a lot to take the wonder out of magic. It wasn't just with item creation, either -- it was with stripping creator names off of spells, using a one-size fits all approach for wands/rods/staves, and the simplified creation for magical items. It made the magical mundane and far less interesting.
And what I've read about residuum in 4E is worse, to me -- it makes it sound like MMO-type magical item creation. And I've done enough MMO crafting to know what that is like...
Please note this is not bashing editions; it's stating my opinions on very specific aspects of D&D rulesets in comparison to each other. 3.x may be my preferred ruleset, but 2E handled magic better. I want wonder in my magic, not an assembly line approach. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 22:00:53
I wholly support MT's idea of needing to learn (or create) unique new spells or feats as part of magical-item-making process. As a DM, I would sometimes go one step further and actually require a character learns some new spell or feat to be able to properly use/operate an item.
Agreed, more complexity is better ... or at least more consistent with old AD&D-style game flavour. Simplifying such career-highlight procedures into "just spend gold, subtract XP, and add water" PHB recipes might streamline the game focus towards other areas but (in my mind) diminished an exciting facet of what D&D is all about. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 01:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'm of the school of thought that this is one of those gaming areas that should never be simpler. My favorite item creation method is the one from Volo's guide because it is MORE complicated. :)
I prefer the Volo's Guide method because it's the most flavorful.  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 22:18:51
I'm of the school of thought that this is one of those gaming areas that should never be simpler. My favorite item creation method is the one from Volo's guide because it is MORE complicated. :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 14:24:45
I am wondering (now) if it wouldn't have just been simpler to use a feat to create a magical item. Not the feats to do so (in fact, get rid of them), just a one-off thing. That would explain why people don't just create tons of magic items.
Thus, if you wanted to create a Staff of the Magi, you'd have to learn all the spell that go into it, gather all the ingredients you'd need for both the staff itself and those spells, and also wait until you level and then 'do' the Create Magic Item feat. Instead of XP or Con, it would cost you a feat. That would make the item an integral part of your character (which is how I think such personal magic should be).
That makes a simple way to incorporate magical item creation into a campaign, without PCs considering doing so (although they still might, but it would be more practical to go and find said items). I'm very old-school in this regard, and PCs making their own magical gear rubs me the wrong way. Minor buffing is fine, but not out-right artifact-level item creation. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 21:38:43
So many differing "official" AD&D rules for magical item creation were offered (Tome of Magic, Tome of Artifacts, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, etc) that anything is possible - especially since each set of rules was intended to serve as a "guideline" for the DM/author to customize on a per-campaign or even per-item basis. The default DMG method basically assumed the use of permanency and/or wish spells, resulting in permanent CON loss or aging. I don't recall any systems which involved XP spending/loss, but that doesn't mean none existed.
Such rules never applied to Nether Scrolls anyhow; the scrolls have a tendency to self-repair or reform themselves (or simply magically appear at some "random" location in the Realms) whenever they're damaged/destroyed in any event.
Besides, that's just 2E style. When in Rome you should play by Rome's ruleset: characters in 3E regularly spend XP towards gaining magical powers and items, nothing wrong with that. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 06:40:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There was a loss of Constitution in editions prior to 3.x regarding the making of certain magical items; but I don't recall xp loss.
Yeah, that was from the permanency spell, but there were alternative methods that eliminated that PERMANENT loss by a sacrifice of XP which could be regained. Anyone remember the source of that? I can't remember. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 02:43:08
There was a loss of Constitution in editions prior to 3.x regarding the making of certain magical items; but I don't recall xp loss. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 02:22:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It could be argued that Netherese arcanists who studied these scrolls invariably became insane. It's certainly true that Karsus and Shadow/Telamont weren't quite right in the head.
I wouldn't mark either of them as insane. I would call them both proud. This trait is almost universal among the arcanists of Netheril. Hubris is perhaps the most common classical character flaw, and it is what caused almost all of the problems in ancient Faerun too.
That said, I would not equate hubris with insanity or madness. It could potentially LEAD to madness however. So perhaps the natural side effect of the scrolls is really to become overly prideful. Such a drastic increase in power makes this very likely.
The madness would then come, predictably, with some future failure. Imagine what it must do to a person to believe themselves above everyone else, and to learn they are mistaken. Sounds like a shortcut to a padded room if I ever heard one.
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 02:14:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One did not spend XP on things back in 1E/2E, in fact one gained XP for creating magical items. XP loss was usually reserved only for level draining undead and punitive awards by annoyed DMs. In 1E REF5 the Nether Scrolls were something of a magical curiosity, but by 2E Netheril they had evolved into artifact-status items which could defy normal rules.
I'm not sure where it's from any more, but one of the ways to make an item permanent involved this investiture of XP. Perhaps it was an old Dragon Mag suggestion and not really from a rulebook. I'd have to look into that. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 02:13:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It could be argued that Netherese arcanists who studied these scrolls invariably became insane. It's certainly true that Karsus and Shadow/Telamont weren't quite right in the head.
Perhaps Karsus thought his grand plan for apotheosis would bring with it a more comprehensive understanding of what the Nether Scrolls originally entailed.
quote:
Elven high mages and liches (like Larloch) can absorb such knowledge over centuries, but even so it might still bring risks.
Perhaps there is some as yet undefined correlation between the progression of a being's state in lichdom and the absorption of knowledge. Maybe, with "simply" the luxury of millennia to spare in one's undead lifetime, the insanity-inspiring secrets of such arcane artifacts like the Nether Scrolls can be more effectively processed without the overarching fear of going mad as a result of divining what lies within. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 16:52:53
One did not spend XP on things back in 1E/2E, in fact one gained XP for creating magical items. XP loss was usually reserved only for level draining undead and punitive awards by annoyed DMs. In 1E REF5 the Nether Scrolls were something of a magical curiosity, but by 2E Netheril they had evolved into artifact-status items which could defy normal rules.
Artifacts tend to be potent beyond mortal comprehensions, perhaps insanity is simply the unavoidable consequence of gaining "special" knowledge and powers from these scrolls. Artifacts are never trivial, and shortcuts to bonus stats/feats/abilities/levels/etc should always come with a price.
[Edit]
It could be argued that Netherese arcanists who studied these scrolls invariably became insane. It's certainly true that Karsus and Shadow/Telamont weren't quite right in the head. Elven high mages and liches (like Larloch) can absorb such knowledge over centuries, but even so it might still bring risks. |
| Light |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 09:27:52
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd say that is an assumption. There are many ways for a mage to loose levels, both voluntarily and involuntarily. I had a character once who hovered around level 12 (gaining XP and spending it) while the rest of the group got up to level 18. I imagine Elminster would have another 10 or 20 levels if not for this process as well (just think how much he does, constantly meddling and gaining XP - he would have many more levels by now).
I guess that would be true. Although I, personally, never think of it that way. I believe that the whole XP spending mechanic is simply that, a mechanic and that crafting a magical item does not actually take away from what you have learned or whatever it is that you equate "experience" to.
But yes, forgetting that they could have lost levels is indeed an oversight on my part. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 09:05:54
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Ways to play with the Nether Scrolls:
Unless other state by canon, as I do not have all realms books:
The scrolls are the collective arcane knowledge that the Serpent Creator race of one Kingdom deemed important enough to be located into one place, one of two known set of scrolls.
So...
It is possible... there are other, unknown copies of the scrolls. Perhaps Mystra can create the NS at will and/or keeps a personal copy in her realm in the Astral. She keeps two in the realm as a way to control the spread of magic so it doesn't go all Karsus shaped.
It is possible... there are other collection of magics concentrated into one place. Perhaps a special Kiira or series of Kiira which contain all of the collective knowledge of arcana which an ancient Elven Kingdom collected from it's borders? A mystical Anvil which contains all of the mystical knowledge of the Dwarves? A crown which contains multiple races collective arcana knowledge?
It is possible... there are other collections of different knowledge concentrated in one magical place. A sword or dagger contain as 4ed call it Martial knowledge for Rogue, Rangers, Fighters, Warlords and so on. A crystal which contains all collective Psionic Knowledge? Scrolls of all known Divine Magics? A Tree which contains all Primal knowledge?
It is possible... there could be a collection of multiple fields of knowledge, merging them into one. Like combined Arcana and Divine magics.
It is possible... it could be all of the above....
Just some ideas for adventures on the top of my head. For hero or villain goals.
I always thought the "Books of Vaprak" were something along these lines. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 09:03:02
quote:
Originally posted by Light
On the topic of how long it takes to read a single chapter of the Nether Scrolls, I always took the one month rule to mean a non-stop month. In other words approximately 720 hours. So unless you never sleep, eat and keep your mind entirely focused on the scroll you will take longer than a month, probably closer to two.
Also to note, Ed said that Ioulaum and Larloch had read the entire set and neither of them are above level fifty so I would have to say that no, reading the entire set would not grant you fifty levels. If you gave them to a beginning mage (level 1) I'm sure that he would gain a vast amount of levels, I'd give him no less than 15, maybe as many as 20. Give the entire set of scrolls to a 25th level mage and I would only give him a few levels. Of course like many others I would also grant increased skills, new feats, possible resistances, spells etc.
And like Ed says, even Ioulaum and Larloch are insane. Insanity comes in an infinite amount of variations, the "barking-mad, babbling fool" type insane is not the only one.
I'd say that is an assumption. There are many ways for a mage to loose levels, both voluntarily and involuntarily. I had a character once who hovered around level 12 (gaining XP and spending it) while the rest of the group got up to level 18. I imagine Elminster would have another 10 or 20 levels if not for this process as well (just think how much he does, constantly meddling and gaining XP - he would have many more levels by now). |
| Light |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 07:20:05
On the topic of how long it takes to read a single chapter of the Nether Scrolls, I always took the one month rule to mean a non-stop month. In other words approximately 720 hours. So unless you never sleep, eat and keep your mind entirely focused on the scroll you will take longer than a month, probably closer to two.
Also to note, Ed said that Ioulaum and Larloch had read the entire set and neither of them are above level fifty so I would have to say that no, reading the entire set would not grant you fifty levels. If you gave them to a beginning mage (level 1) I'm sure that he would gain a vast amount of levels, I'd give him no less than 15, maybe as many as 20. Give the entire set of scrolls to a 25th level mage and I would only give him a few levels. Of course like many others I would also grant increased skills, new feats, possible resistances, spells etc.
And like Ed says, even Ioulaum and Larloch are insane. Insanity comes in an infinite amount of variations, the "barking-mad, babbling fool" type insane is not the only one. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 01:24:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Wooly: Is that tale canon? Or just something someone made up? I've never seen/heard that tale before either. On p.87 of LEoF is an entry on Xothol, a dwarven school of magic in the capitol city of Ammarindar. So if one wants a precedent for dwarven wizards there it is (the school was founded over 2000 years ago).
The existence of the myth is canon, for the simple fact it's from WotC. Whether or not it was a true story is unsaid.
Keep in mind, though, that it came out during the 2E time frame -- and in 2E, dwarves not only could not be wizards, any magical item they used had a 20% chance of failure, unless it was keyed to their class or to dwarves.
Lost Empires came out in 3E, when there was no such restriction.
Additionally, I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also well, Steven Schend put into The Lost Level adventure an option allowing anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards... |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 01:14:21
Ways to play with the Nether Scrolls:
Unless other state by canon, as I do not have all realms books:
The scrolls are the collective arcane knowledge that the Serpent Creator race of one Kingdom deemed important enough to be located into one place, one of two known set of scrolls.
So...
It is possible... there are other, unknown copies of the scrolls. Perhaps Mystra can create the NS at will and/or keeps a personal copy in her realm in the Astral. She keeps two in the realm as a way to control the spread of magic so it doesn't go all Karsus shaped.
It is possible... there are other collection of magics concentrated into one place. Perhaps a special Kiira or series of Kiira which contain all of the collective knowledge of arcana which an ancient Elven Kingdom collected from it's borders? A mystical Anvil which contains all of the mystical knowledge of the Dwarves? A crown which contains multiple races collective arcana knowledge?
It is possible... there are other collections of different knowledge concentrated in one magical place. A sword or dagger contain as 4ed call it Martial knowledge for Rogue, Rangers, Fighters, Warlords and so on. A crystal which contains all collective Psionic Knowledge? Scrolls of all known Divine Magics? A Tree which contains all Primal knowledge?
It is possible... there could be a collection of multiple fields of knowledge, merging them into one. Like combined Arcana and Divine magics.
It is possible... it could be all of the above....
Just some ideas for adventures on the top of my head. For hero or villain goals. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 00:13:21
quote:
Ayrik
The elven method used to modify a set of scrolls into the golden grove wasn't specified, but I think it's obvious their high magic was involved. Elven high magic being about on par, I think, with the 10th/11th level spells of Netherese arcanists, a level of magic basically lost to humans after Netheril's/Mystryl's fall. Some extraordinary humans (notably the Chosen) and liches (notably Larloch, perhaps also Szass Tam) are able to exceed the normal limits with Mystra's special per-casting approval.
quote:
The Masked Mage
I don't remember which book, possibly Secrets of the Magister, modified this restriction that casting such magic (which has its own difficulties and limits) only "attracts the attention of Azuth & Mystra," nut not requires her approval. And misuse can result in some problems.
You may be correct, but the rules offered in Netheril basically state that post-Netheril Mystra (or maybe Azuth) specifically permits or denies every 10th level wizard spell being cast, and that the spellcasting only has a 25% chance of succeeding even when allowed (and that the first attempt to cast it always automatically fails). 11th level wizard magic is completely forbidden, while the *only* example of a 12th level spell recorded in canon is Karsus's avatar. Printed during the 2E sourcebook diaspora, so it's almost certainly contradicted elsewhere.
Although treated inconsistently across editions, Mystra is basically an human goddess and apparently does not govern elven high magic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 23:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Wooly: Is that tale canon? Or just something someone made up? I've never seen/heard that tale before either. On p.87 of LEoF is an entry on Xothol, a dwarven school of magic in the capitol city of Ammarindar. So if one wants a precedent for dwarven wizards there it is (the school was founded over 2000 years ago).
The existence of the myth is canon, for the simple fact it's from WotC. Whether or not it was a true story is unsaid.
Keep in mind, though, that it came out during the 2E time frame -- and in 2E, dwarves not only could not be wizards, any magical item they used had a 20% chance of failure, unless it was keyed to their class or to dwarves.
Lost Empires came out in 3E, when there was no such restriction. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 23:35:07
Thanks Mr. Krashos. That really means alot coming from such an esteemed member of the community.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 23:09:03
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
<SNIP re ideas for different races>
Thoughts?
I think this idea is cool.
-- George Krashos
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 22:13:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The elven method used to modify a set of scrolls into the golden grove wasn't specified, but I think it's obvious their high magic was involved. Elven high magic being about on par, I think, with the 10th/11th level spells of Netherese arcanists, a level of magic basically lost to humans after Netheril's/Mystryl's fall. Some extraordinary humans (notably the Chosen) and liches (notably Larloch, perhaps also Szass Tam) are able to exceed the normal limits with Mystra's special per-casting approval.
I don't remember which book, possibly Secrets of the Magister, modified this restriction that casting such magic (which has its own difficulties and limits) only "attracts the attention of Azuth & Mystra," nut not requires her approval. And misuse can result in some problems. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 22:07:39
Wooly: Is that tale canon? Or just something someone made up? I've never seen/heard that tale before either. On p.87 of LEoF is an entry on Xothol, a dwarven school of magic in the capitol city of Ammarindar. So if one wants a precedent for dwarven wizards there it is (the school was founded over 2000 years ago).
Of course, that doesn't mean that the dwarves couldn't still be DENIED access to the scrolls by the gods.
Ayrik: I've always equated Rituals of Solitude with 10th-level magic, Rituals of Complement with 11th, and Rituals of Myriad with 12th. Let's not forget that it was a massive Ritual of Myriad that was used for The Sundering...a 12th-level (or higher) effect if ever there was one. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 20:18:55
The elven method used to modify a set of scrolls into the golden grove wasn't specified, but I think it's obvious their high magic was involved. Elven high magic being about on par, I think, with the 10th/11th level spells of Netherese arcanists, a level of magic basically lost to humans after Netheril's/Mystryl's fall. Some extraordinary humans (notably the Chosen) and liches (notably Larloch, perhaps also Szass Tam) are able to exceed the normal limits with Mystra's special per-casting approval. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 19:23:36
The reason the elves modified the scrolls they stole was to make the information contained in them (which they could not destroy) more difficult to access.
This would not be the case for any other race because no other race thinks of itself in the role of protectors of the Weave.
Remember, humans had the scrolls for a LONG time and never considered making a tree out of them :P |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 19:20:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Dwarves: The scrolls take the form of an cave with multiple types of gems and veins of mithril, amantite, precious metals, etc. And perhaps a carving of a dwarven deity, ancestor, or historical leader who 'whispers in the mind' those who are at study. The patterns in the veins and gemstones leads to deeper understanding.
There is a myth that the dwarves were unable to even see the Nether Scrolls -- the scrolls were invisible to them.
The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl -- A very brief tale; it offers a reason for while pre-3E dwarves could not use arcane magic. It took me a couple of years to find this file! Tauster had to provide the name of it for me to be able to locate it.
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| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 18:56:55
quote:
I’m guessing that there are levels of insanity. And that the Nether Scrolls only aply a sligh, or minor level of insanity. Also I’m guessing that it depends on who is reading it. And how.
It was my belief that the form of the golden beach three increased the difficulty of understanding the knowledge,( like reading between the lines) but I also thought that is was quite safe in this form. I also thought that there were an underlining 6th chapter in the elven tree form, and that leads me to believe that no existing being have uncovered all the information in th scrolls. There might even be a 7th or 8th chapter.
Further I thought that it took way longer to actually read 50 scrolls than 10 month. Or was this the intensive course given by Azuth? A few calculations put it around 50 months, or ca. 4 years. No wonder someone would go insane if one’s mind had to dilute that kind of information in 10 month. That's insane.
Lastly; is the insanity, apparently gained by reading the scrolls canon or only something Ed says happens? Don’t get me wrong, I thing and deem what Ed says to be canon, but does it actually say in any game supplement that reading the scrolls makes you go kuku?
As I recall, each scroll takes one month of reading to complete.
By definition, everything Ed says is canon.
I agree that by altering the form of the scrolls into the form unique for each race should make studying them safer.
I'm not sure where the reference for Azuth's directing said mage's studies comes from but does 10 months actually mean he studied all the scrolls? Perhaps he only studied 10 (a single chapter)?
Any thoughts on what form the scrolls would take for other races? Here is a couple of my ideas...
Dwarves: The scrolls take the form of an cave with multiple types of gems and veins of mithril, amantite, precious metals, etc. And perhaps a carving of a dwarven deity, ancestor, or historical leader who 'whispers in the mind' those who are at study. The patterns in the veins and gemstones leads to deeper understanding.
Humans: As the most adaptable race (IMO) the scrolls take a simpler form...that of a golden grimoire set before a wall of strange symbols. The book contains the 'key' to deciphering the inscriptions but, just as the reader discovers a secret the symbols and the 'key' change. In this case, it's the book that 'assists' in revealing the secrets.
Gnomes: A small grove of multi-colored flowers with striking patterns on them and an insect (form unique to each individual who studies) that assists in revelations. Periodically, a wind blows and the patterns alter form.
Thoughts? |
| Bakra |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 16:43:12
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Further I thought that it took way longer to actually read 50 scrolls than 10 month. Or was this the intensive course given by Azuth? A few calculations put it around 50 months, or ca. 4 years. No wonder someone would go insane if one’s mind had to dilute that kind of information in 10 month. That's insane.
It was the intensive course given by Azuth. Netheril: Empire of Magic states it takes months to read a single page.
The scrolls were divided into five sections of ten each.
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