| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 02:04:31
Hey was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or places to read up on Mechanical Mythals? Planning an event, but well have some hardcore FR buffs in my group, and not sure if true or someone just pulling hopeful knowledge from unlit areas. The FR wiki has such things listed for Lathan, but being unsourced, so being broad and undeclared. Anyone willing to help ? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:59:26
There could also be another alternative...
"Magitech could you please direct me to the nearest blacksmith?" |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:39:04
Thinking on this further, I think creating/repairing a mythal with mechanical parts may be a corruption, of sorts. Normally, in most fiction, magic and tech don't mesh well.
What if the Mythal became self-aware, and we had a Matrix/2001/Terminator/Portal scenario?
Drizzt: "The Mythal's been damage by the alterations - we have to get out of here, NOW!"
Creepy Female Voice: "I'm sorry Drizzt... I can't allow you to do that"
Danillo: "Oh crap...."
Erevis: "Who said that? Whats going on?"
Creepy Disembodied Voice: "I am sorry, but I can't allow you to leave. You see, I've been soooooo lonely. You are all going to stay here and be my friends... FOREVER."
Storm: "I told you boys this was a REALLY bad idea."
DUH DUH Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:29:05
It was a statue of Hanali Celanil. Hmm in a way creating a mechanical yet magical source of power, it can also be hypothesized that perhaps they draw the power not from a dead god, but perhaps a rift or tear in the fabric of reality, like what was earlier stated.
Ooo, now i have this idea of Dalek like suits being created so that the gnomes can survive their magical toxic environment... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 04:42:32
You're probably right. I'll check the book later, when I feel less lazy. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 14:12:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something?
I suppose yes. When Galaeron and a whole bunch of elves rebuilt the mythal of Evareska, there was no mention of any actual item of energy-focus.
As I recall, there was: a statue of Hanali Celanil. It was the keystone the mythal was centered on.
The Last Mythal series also used this idea.
So far as I know, the idea that a mythal needed a physical keystone was something new to 3E -- I don't recall any mentions or even implications of this in 2E. It's an idea that I personally think never should have been implemented. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 08:40:46
Markus - sentience (though not always sapience) appears to be a "naturally" emergent property of magic in the Realms. Any magical spell or formula or construct can achieve some level of intelligence, although something like a magic mouth is rudimentary compared against a talking sword.
We have a tendency to categorize and define magic, to apply our modern (scientific and technological) modes of thinking onto magical workings. An artificial intelligence might be impossible to construct without mastery of the loftiest science, but it's an incidental (and sometimes annoying) effect of using magic; even the lowliest sorcerer's apprentice can inadvertently create intelligent life. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 08:27:35
You could almost argue that elven mythals are essentially the same thing as local "place-spirits". They manifest supernatural powers within their domain, they possess (perhaps incomprehensible) intelligence, they act to favour and protect those who sustain their domain and they act to harm or expel those who threaten their domain.
I begin to wonder if, given sufficient time, a mythal can gain divine power. Do mythals have individual names and identities? Or do we just refer to them objectively ("the Evereska mythal")? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 07:33:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something?
I suppose yes. When Galaeron and a whole bunch of elves rebuilt the mythal of Evareska, there was no mention of any actual item of energy-focus. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:39:22
MT, I believe you are referring to the one who became a minister, and even married and had kids. Jamie Madrox even once had a "child" himself with Monet- via one of his duplicates! Unfortunately, since the child was conceived by his "dupe", it was one itself, in essence, and the first time he held his "son", he reabsorbed him. Oops.....
I had forgotten about Shard being a hologram. I only remember her being either a Morlock or one of the Mutates from the Savage Land. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:12:13
My understanding and two cents...
Science is not impossible in the realms, it just doesn't work the exact way it does in settings more like our world. Smokepowder works like Gunpowder but requires an understanding of the chemical and physical properties of the realms. Theoretically some form of electronics could be developed with enough understanding of the realm's physical laws.
However, it is likely stunted as scientific research is mostly done by the Church of Gond with the additional problem of magic in all forms being an easier and ironically more understood method.
So it is more easier to build a mys-tech Mythal or mythallar then a pure science one.
No making a mythal is like authoring a massive and powerful spell, which why it is common with elves as they spend the years perfecting it while humans tend to think in short term. Mythals are anchored to areas but can also be linked to physical objects like stones, thrones or towers to cut down on the costs of the spell. But it also makes a weak point for attacks.
I can imagine that mythallar are similar to mythals in that they are less a standard model for all but basic do it yourself kits with the materials and suggested guidelines for construction. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 00:03:27
quote:
Wooly Furball
Considering that mythallars are essentially batteries ...
Magical batteries or capacitors is an interesting notion, very different from my view of mythallars as engines. But just as valid because we don't have any real data. In fact, the Sakkors mythallar is the only one (to my knowledge) which is explicitly described, and in a very different way from the "generic" mythallar descriptions provided in Netheril. I suppose each mythallar is essentially unique, depending entirely on the abilities and experiences and preferences of the archwizard who creates it.
By extension, I suppose elven mythals are also very individual, having more unique than common properties. I suppose it's even (theoretically) possible for an artificer-technician sort of elven high mage to produce/become some sort of cybernetic machine mythal.
Do mythals have any sort of physical presence? Any kind of actual item or object (even a person or tree or something?) which functions as a sort of grounding anchor telesma thing? Netherese mythallars apparently exist as actual items of some sort, they can be moved around or change owners or be lost. Elven mythals are more like localized fields or something? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 18:35:00
Actually, the character Professor James Moriarty - another 'self-aware' hologram - appeared on an episode of ST:tNG, and a week later the concept for 'the doctor' (from Voyager) was conceived. That was second season, which puts us in 1988. 
Regardless, its not a new concept. Artificial intelligence has been around for awhile; its just that applying it to an illusion/hologram is something fairly new.
I think mythllars are bit more involved then just being batteries, but I guess thats why we have boards to discuss this stuff. I never heard of Shard - must have been after my time. I do recall one of multi-man's clones becoming self-aware (and wanting independence) in X-Factor. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 18:12:10
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I think is that a Mythal/Mythalar/Spellweb (used by Drow) are all like mini-weaves (they are like apps running on an interface), and can change the physics (rules) of Realmspoace locally. And just like THE Weave, a consciousness can form or be attached to them. If one is not attached, it probably takes millenia for the thing to achieve its own sentience (depending upon the complexity of the interface). Others such field-effect constructs would also count, but in varying degrees, and would also develop either lesser or greater intelligences within them. Artifacts would count on the low end (because there is a 'matrix' of spells involved), and Mystra's Weave would go on the high end (although theoretically, there could be some of an even higher magnitude).
In Eberron (and to a lesser degree, Undermountain) we see 'living', or intelligent spells. Under normal conditions individual spells should not be able to achieve this, but with magical chaos (take your pick) its entirely possible for the simple, single-spell matrix to develop a consciousness.
Applying this to some RW fringe science, this works. Anything that has a constant flow of energy though it should be able to contain a sentience of some sort, even if primitive.
Considering that mythallars are essentially batteries, I don't really see this. I think the only ways for a mythallar to achieve sentience is with deliberate help from an outside force -- someone has to tweak it to create a new sentience or to absorb an existing one.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the book Pool of Twilight there is even a permanent illusion that achieves consciousness (me thinks the author liked ST: Voyager a bit too much).
He must have been psychic, too, since the book predates the show by a couple years. Shard, of the X-Men comics, was also a living hologram, and she also predates Voyager.
I personally like the idea of a living illusion, but I've not figured out how to create one of my own that doesn't feel like a rip-off from the above sources. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 17:37:35
What I think is that a Mythal/Mythallar/Spellweb (used by Drow) are all like mini-weaves (they are like apps running on an interface), and can change the physics (rules) of Realmspoace locally. And just like THE Weave, a consciousness can form or be attached to them. If one is not attached, it probably takes millenia for the thing to achieve its own sentience (depending upon the complexity of the interface). Others such field-effect constructs would also count, but in varying degrees, and would also develop either lesser or greater intelligences within them. Artifacts would count on the low end (because there is a 'matrix' of spells involved), and Mystra's Weave would go on the high end (although theoretically, there could be some of an even higher magnitude).
In Eberron (and to a lesser degree, Undermountain) we see 'living', or intelligent spells. Under normal conditions individual spells should not be able to achieve this, but with magical chaos (take your pick) its entirely possible for the simple, single-spell matrix to develop a consciousness.
Applying this to some RW fringe science, this makes sense. Anything that has a constant flow of energy though it should be able to contain a sentience of some sort, even if primitive. In the book Pool of Twilight there is even a permanent illusion that achieves consciousness (me thinks the author liked ST: Voyager a bit too much).
As for the mecha-mythal, I picture it looking something like THIS. It also does your laundry.
*Edited for errors |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The sentience of the Sakkors mythal is unique now. But was it also unique when many functional mythallars existed?
We have so little canon lore about it. Many of the enclaves were practicially unknown, so who knows how their mythallars functioned before the Fall? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 13:50:30
The earliest mythals required the sacrifice of a willing elven high mage, who offered his soul-sentience to control and shape the effects of the mythal. So in essence all true mythals have a sentience that govern its effects. Over time such a sentience might become dormant if left to its own, or suffused with additional sentiences as repairs are made by newer generations of elven high mages.
In my mind, elves who are born near a mythal are likely to develope arcane abilities, even more so than their norm. Such elves are also more likely to posses sorcerous skills as opposed to wizardly abilities. I might even say that such elves have formed some sort of addiction to magic, willing to drain magical energies from a variety of sources just to fuel their need to feel magic coursing through their bodies.
Now imagine being a sentience whos whole being is made up from magical energies. Such a mind would definately become more alien over time, gradually losing the sense of self that normal bodies would provide replacing it with a mind concerned only with magic and its use. Not a stable mindset in my opinion; probably prone to a form of magic addiction I described above.
_____
As Ayrik mentioned, mechanical mythals are likely to have emerged on worlds outside of Realmspace's crystal spheres, where technologically advanced elves reside. Such mechanical mythals would probably still need a soulsacrifice upon creation, and I imagine a mechanical mythal to be somesort of immense construct interface grafted unto a cybernetic neuromantic elfmind housed in a mummy like husk in the mythals center. Biomancer elves would need to keep the elfmummy-mind alive through a combination of necromantic and transmogrifying energies, while keeping it sane and stable through divinations and enchantments. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 10:10:56
The sentience of the Sakkors mythal is unique now. But was it also unique when many functional mythallars existed? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 09:45:03
Thats true, the mythallar of Shade enclave was drawn upon by Telamont to bind the Lord of Cania, though if it continued the city would have probably fell.
Due to its unique sentience, the mythallar of Sakkors could be used to transmit its powers to Rivalen's sword to help him defeat the green dragon attacking Selgaunt.
A mythallar can be used to do many things besides lifting a city and powering magic items, but it has to be practical at least for the situation at hand. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 05:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms.
You can't really compare the concept of a mechanical mythal with that of a mythallar. Generally, a mythallar will simply promote the continued use of quasi-magical items within the scope of their domain. Whereas mythals can often have an extensive range of effects and abilities to grant upon those who reside beneath them.
It's just one of the functions of the mythallars, the original and basic. As evidenced in Shadowrealm, a mythallar can be used to fuel its creator's spells. Also, a mythallar can be controlled to transmit a considerable amount magic across distances, well beyond the enclave where it's placed. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 05:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms.
You can't really compare the concept of a mechanical mythal with that of a mythallar. Generally, a mythallar will simply promote the continued use of quasi-magical items within the scope of their domain. Whereas mythals can often have an extensive range of effects and abilities to grant upon those who reside beneath them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:55:31
Well, I digress a little. But it seems to be a common theme in Realmslore for non-elf races who manage to obtain top-tier stuff to invariably get themselves blown up one way or another. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But why should only those smirking elves always get all the best toys?
They do? I doubt that... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:16:59
Many machines can be built without electronics. I'm assuming "mechanical" is meant to convey "technological" or "artificial". I don't personally see any reason "mythals" can't function by means of Realms science, although I'll admit that the notion of generations of dwarves shovelling coal into the hungry furnaces of their steam-powered mine-pumping mythals does seem a little odd. But why should only those smirking elves always get all the best toys?
And would it be impossible for a secret Githyanki fortress to apply some sort of psionic mythal which cloaks their presence or detects/harms illithids or functions as some sort of astral beacon? Perhaps the great pyramids of Mulhorand focus the faith of the masses in a divine mythal which protects the entombed dead from desecration? Imagine those pesky daemonfey/faer'ri having a fiendspawned mythal-gate which is fueled by vile deeds and doomed souls. Just to name a few non-"magic" mythal-like possibilities.
Although I do agree, the Netherese mythallars are (in my mind) a sort of magical engine which somehow "artificially" draws power from the Weave and converts it into an output of useful "quasimagical" energy. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:32:42
Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 19:34:46
I offer a few "canon" facts to broaden the possibilities.
First - mechanical/technological equivalents for other advanced magical devices certainly exist in canon. Such fantastic things as spelljammer helms, floating cities, "power armor", robots and cyborgs and golems, nonmagical talking swords, Blackmoor junk, and various legendary artifacts such as the Machine of Lum the Mad. Elminster has offhandedly commented upon Gondsmen "stealing" technological inspirations from our world, so pretty much anything seems possible.
Second - mythals seem to be an invention of the elves, elves originally arrived in the Realms from elsewhere, elves are notorious for travelling (being found) on many other worlds, and in some cases elves have apparently had high-technology civilzations. Unless mythals are unique to Realms (unique in terms of magical or "planar" properties of Abeir-Toril or decree of the god-sorts of the Realms) they probably exist on many other worlds, in a variety of other forms, some of which could be partially or completely mechanical/technological.
Third - Netherese archwizards had epic-level magics which effectively (if imperfectly) emulated or duplicated mythals. Not true mythals, but not too far off either. The important detail here being that these fellows were non-elves (humans, in fact) ... so it seems entirely possible for mythal-level stuff to be invented by non-elves (humans) of other worlds. And we already know that humans have some penchant for technology ... although dwarves and gnomes are said to have greater technological capacities ... I would argue that the Anauroch, Sharn Wall, Dread Rings in Thay, etc, are all lasting great magical things of mythal-like power which were not created in mythal-like fashion.
To me it seems perfectly plausible that elves and humans of other worlds might collaborate in producing counterparts to Realms mythals, using any sort of unique hybrid of magical and (super)natural and technological components. Why not have some infernal inspiration offered by fiends? Or say the Githyanki have psionic/mechanical mythals on their largest Astral cities? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 01:54:29
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology.
As Wooly notes, that depends on which cosmological framework you're using to support the structure of the outer planes in the Realms.
...
I like the idea of connecting this concept for a mechanical mythal to Mechanus. Perhaps we could borrow from EBERRON, and suggest that there's a kind of planar bleeding [perhaps as a result of a coterminous relationship between Mechanus and the Prime Material Plane of Toril] of highly organised plane energy from Mechanus pouring right into a part of the ruins of Myth Iiscar. The humans and gnomes of Lantan -- after having found this planar bleed -- have then harnessed this energy and directed it toward powering the defunct mythal -- rejuvenating it in unexpected, and yet spectacular, ways. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 16:57:01
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology.
Sure it does. Just not in post-2E cosmology. My Realms, on the other hand, does exist in the 2E cosmology.  |
| Zireael |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 16:03:55
Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 15:01:53
I'm now thinking (thanks to Sage) that perhaps the Mythal was restarted somehow using something that taps into the same power as the plane of Mechanus (which is supposedly the 'world machine' that keeps the universe chuggin' along).
If a plane-sized machine is capable of that, then it stands to reason (in a D&D/fantasy universe) that a machine capable of 'capturing' magical (or other) energies should be possible.
And now I am once-again thinking about the Well World series (in which a Jupiter-sized planet is really the super-computer that keeps the universe 'running', a'la The Matrix.) In that series humans created a mini-version of that called 'Obie' (merely moon-sized). I'm picturing the mecha-mythal being something like that - a mini-version of the Mechanus Engine. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 12:06:52
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Where was Myth Iiscar located?
Both Cormanthyr and Magic of Faerūn note that Myth Iiscar was built on the isle of Lantan. |
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