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 Gold Elves - What attitude do they really have?

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Crennen FaerieBane Posted - 27 Jul 2005 : 19:53:05
I have a great many books and supplements for the realms over the years and the one things that always amazed me is the shocking difference in which some authors portray the Ar-Tel-Quessir. I personally love Gold Elfs and have played quite a few Gold Elf characters. But I wanted to know what everyone else though.

C-Fb
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
TBeholder Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 10:00:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

In some regards, the fact that they haven't attempted to destroy most other species through High Magic or other means shows that they are, for the most part, of good heart.
Other species have to thank for their continued existence not as much elven good hearts as their bad attention spans. Except the dragons. Other than that, usually elves were too busy doing this to other elves to put much effort into exterminating anyone else. With a few exceptions noted above in this thread.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 23:46:08
I wish there was a "like" option, but as there is not, I will just say I agree with you, Arcana
The Arcanamach Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 15:59:50
I didn't vote on this as none of the categories seem right to me. I largely do not care for how elves have been portrayed in FR but that's just me (and another discussion). Elves are extremely long lived race and discussing them requires an understanding of the implications of their near-immortality. Imagine watching century after century as everything you hold dear diminishes (forests, kingdoms, loved ones dying at the hands of other races, etc). Add to that the fact that elves had a hand in the rise of humankind (in many ways) only to have their lands encroached upon and magic abused in many ways by them. At some point, much resentment would build within their culture just as it does in the real world...except that for elves, who are longer lived, this resentment would continue to be fresh in their minds. Just look at how some cultures have been warring against each other for thousands of years and imagine how much more so the problem would be for elves. In some regards, the fact that they haven't attempted to destroy most other species through High Magic or other means shows that they are, for the most part, of good heart. They are just wounded on a fundamental level in some regards.
TBeholder Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 09:33:40
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Er, no, obviously, if it's supposed to be a translation, "Dark Elves", or maybe "Night Elves". And by definition pre-Descent they couldn't be "drow".
For that matter, canonically "Drow" itself is bastardized "Dhaerow" ("black heart").
Also presumably the Creator races in some old sources are refferred to as "Iquar'Tel'Quessir".

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dieter McMuff

That's amazing. Not one mention of Jander Sunstar, the Gold Elf Vampire. Granted, his particular experiences probably would have knocked anyone off the old high horse, but it did sound like that even when he did breathe
Well, yeah.
The "particular experiences" part applies to Vartan Hai Sylvar, too.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 20:09:35
I'm going to have to agree, DD. I love elves, including gold elves, but they can also be snobs--moon elves are probably the best. But not all gold elves are snobs. IIRC, most of the elves in Return of the Archwizards and Last Mythal were sun elves.
Drustan Dwnhaedan Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 07:59:47
Came across this thread while I was poking around, and decided to put in my two cents worth. While I do love elves (heck, one of my first characters was a Sun Elf), I had to vote 'pompous jerks' simply based on my own experiences with them (most of my characters' kin were not happy when he began worshipping Eilistraee). Unfortunately, there were no options on the list that would suitably describe my character's personality, save the one that sleyvas noted was absent from the list.



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

there's no option for horny



Kentinal Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 03:37:39
Well this is interesting, what and how much to reply if I fail Wis check?

While not convinced that Gray Company's site is the best, I would point to http://eilistraee.com/chosen/language.php?page=grammar and associated links.

Evermeet Gold Elves had a guilt trip because of one of them betrayed them, on the other hand Gold Elves started the Crown wars. The I am the best of the best appears to be thousands of years running. Indeed they as a sub-race might be chastised for a while when plan fails, it clearly appears to be an indication that some will rise to the top to lead them to a better plan in which Gold is better then others.

Of course over the thousands of years we know only the few that make the press, that is becoming history, so all Gold should not be judged by recorded actions of the few.

CorellonsDevout Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 03:13:43
Ah, well "Blood Sport" also appeared in Anthology of the Elves. That's where I first learned of him. I haven't read the other two short stories.
The Sage Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 02:01:49
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

*headdesk* wow, you're right, I forgot about Jander, which is foolish because I loved him! I read the short story about him in Anthology of the Elves, and then Vampire of the Mists.

Jander's FR anthology appearances include:- "One Last Drink" from Realms of Valor, "The Quiet Place" from Realms of Magic, and "Blood Sport" from Realms of Infamy.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 20:56:40
*headdesk* wow, you're right, I forgot about Jander, which is foolish because I loved him! I read the short story about him in Anthology of the Elves, and then Vampire of the Mists.
Dr. Dieter McMuff Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 20:00:31
That's amazing. Not one mention of Jander Sunstar, the Gold Elf Vampire. Granted, his particular experiences probably would have knocked anyone off the old high horse, but it did sound like that even when he did breathe, he wasn't the condescending type.
Now this is probably where someone would point out another particular elf that doesn't conform to the social corn so I'll go ahead and do it for ya. I just wanted to toss another Gold Elf on the table.
I'm actually working on a little project that Evermeet will have somewhat of a part in. Seeing that their culture hasn't shaken that gated community outlook just makes what I'm going to do easier.
Irennan Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 21:06:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1



Elves call other races N'Tel'Quessir (not of the People), so I really don't see the difference. Elves aren't exactly known for being politically correct...
Markustay Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 19:55:18
@Alystra - you can't really use non-canon sources to support this argument. You said "they DO have words for the different races", but that is just supposition at this point.

I am not saying I don't agree that there would be such words (it does make sense), but we have thus-far not seen them. I believe the dictionary Lord Karsus compiled is the most comprehensive and FR-specific. I've found words in a few dragon articles which he refused to put in simply because they were 'core' (and he was absolutely right on that account).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1
Agreed.

I've been saying for awhile now how it sucks that when we want to discuss 'bad guys' we can simply use 'humanoids', but if we want to talk about their adversaries we have to say humans and demi-humans... thats a mouthful. We need one word (that would be politically correct for everyone) to descride the non-humanoid human-like races (which should include humans). I used to use 'Humanish', but that doesn't really have a nice ring to it. How about Anthroids? Too scify? That would also cover humanish creatures with beastial features, so it is still imperfect.

'People' is too generic.
'The Goodly Folk' is too Tolkienesque, plus its still overly long.
I've seen 'The Free peoples' being used, but once again, that's a mouthful.
'Humankin' sounds good, but would still be considered politically incorrect. Good for game rules, though.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:55:31
I agree with Kno. Oh yes, elves (particularly sun elves) can be quite haughty. I'm an elf lover and I still acknowledge that. Some can be jerks, even to moon elves, and especially to wood elves. But I chose choice two, caring but aloof, because if nothing else, they care for other sun elves. And they aren't the only race that views themselves as superior. Pick any race in Faerun and most probably view themselves as superior.

Plus, elves are one of the older races in Faerun (not the oldest, but older). They were building great civilizations while humans were still living in caves, so there is naturally going to be some bias there.
sleyvas Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 14:51:12
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1
Kno Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 12:34:31
Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans
Tarlyn Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 12:05:15
I always thought that the gold elf attitude started to mellow after the attack by rebel gold elves on Evermeet in 1371. I still think they aren't going to win friendly sub race of the month, but I thought that they won't be competing quite as strongly with lolthite drow.
Irennan Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 10:30:04
Because humans have a variety that other races don't.

Besides, in Races of Faerun it is explicitly said that Sun Elves hold prejudices against pretty much everyone. They do so with the other elven subraces because they think that such People are not capable of staying true to ''the elven heritage'' or some BS like that, and their attitude becomes extreme when it comes to humans, considering that the book says that the ''average'' Sun Elf wouldn't even bother to talk to a human, and would leave him/her to die, rather than lend a hand for help.

This alone says a lot about Sun Elven attitude. Obviously a few exceptions exist, but I'd like to see these becoming more prominent, because, as things are now, Sun Elves -in this sense- have a mentality that doesn't differ much from lolthite drow's one...
Lady Shadowflame Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 04:39:52
If you read some of the books featuring noble intrigues in certain places, you'd surely get the impression all humans in Faerun are horrible people. And yet nobody claims that, for some reason.

The haughtier gold elves we've seen are the Myrna Cassalanters and Isabeau Thiones of their people, in my opinion...

I'd rather take Wyn Ashgrove as a better example.
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 03:07:30
Actually, they DO have words for the different races, including different branches of their own race- it's just that all the non-elven races tend to get lumped together as "N'Tel'Quessir" to diffentiate that they are NOT of the elven People. Not only that, but the elven language has different words even for aunt, uncle, cousin, and so on- simply based on gender and which side of the family they come from. Given that, do you REALLY think such a complex and descriptive language would NOT have names for the other races? Logic alone says NO.

And just to give some examples- these all came from the Elven-Common dictionary on Gray Company's site. (Which seems to be defunct now, but I downloaded the entire thing years ago.) While it is not "canon" to FR, much of it was taken from FR sources, and it the most complete elven dictionary I've ever found.

human- edan
dwarf(dwarves)- naug(naugrim)
halfing- peredhil
orc- glamhoth
gnome- nogoth
half-elf- elandil
centaur- rah-edan
dryad- nandin
werewolf- gaur

Clearly, they do distinguish between other races, just as those races themselves do. They have names for them, but they see them all as being non-elven first and foremost. Thus the N'Tel'Quess appalation.
Aravine Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 01:55:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine


yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.



You're basing your entire argument on something that's got as many words as a primer for 2nd graders. In all of D&D canon, we've only got a few hundred words of elven, for any breed of elf in any world. The average person's vocabulary is 4000-5000 words, and any real world dictionary will have many times that many words.

Even given a highly arrogant race, I think it nonsensical to assume they would have no verbal means of distinguishing between humans and goblins, or pixies and gnolls, or whatever.

The most logical assumption is that we've simply not seen the relevant words in print.



But even with that, if you see your self as superior. you could call a rose or a rose,or you could call it a flower. the same is true of an iris or any other flower. just because there are flowers that are absolutely different and distinct doesnt mean the general population won't call all of them a flower. if Elfkind views the rest of the races as no more important then flowers or trees are to us,they may in fact not make the distinction and only view it as "friend" "enemy" elf" "not elf
Wooly Rupert Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 00:33:06
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine


yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.



You're basing your entire argument on something that's got as many words as a primer for 2nd graders. In all of D&D canon, we've only got a few hundred words of elven, for any breed of elf in any world. The average person's vocabulary is 4000-5000 words, and any real world dictionary will have many times that many words.

Even given a highly arrogant race, I think it nonsensical to assume they would have no verbal means of distinguishing between humans and goblins, or pixies and gnolls, or whatever.

The most logical assumption is that we've simply not seen the relevant words in print.
Aravine Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.



No, it doesn't. You admit yourself that it's not exhaustive... Just because I can only count to 20 in Spanish, it doesn't mean the Spanish language doesn't have words for numbers higher than that. The fact that I don't know the words doesn't mean they don't exist.



yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.
sleyvas Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 15:52:57
there's no option for horny
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 05:05:01
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.



No, it doesn't. You admit yourself that it's not exhaustive... Just because I can only count to 20 in Spanish, it doesn't mean the Spanish language doesn't have words for numbers higher than that. The fact that I don't know the words doesn't mean they don't exist.
Aravine Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 04:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 03:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.
Aravine Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 00:24:04
Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)
Irennan Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 10:17:38
^ Agreed. Drow at least can be ''justified'' for their attitude with the fact that they are indoctrinated with BS starting since their childhood.
That said, there are exceptions among both Drow and Sun Elves, obviously.
_Jarlaxle_ Posted - 30 Jul 2012 : 09:34:46
Gold elves are even worse than drow. The attitude is similar but at least drow don't try to hide it.

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