| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caolin |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:20:48
A thought popped into my head today that got me thinking about the need for villains in a Realms story. It seems that there is always an antagonist who is evil...or at least morally ambiguous who is going against the main character(s). So I started wondering if there has ever been a Realms novel where there was no villain involved. I also wondered if such a novel would even be interesting. How would you go about writing a story based in the Realms on such a concept?
I bring this up here because I thought it would be interesting to involve the community in my thought experiment. I'm not a writer so I'm not testing ideas for myself. I also am really curious if there is any Realms novel that breaks the antagonist/protagonist model?
One idea for a story that has always floated around my head that kind of follows this idea is that of a wizard who is researching and creating either a new spell or a magic item. This is a topic that, to my knowledge, has rarely been explored. The best example i can think of is in the Crystal Shard when Bruenor forges Aegis-Fang. I'm not sure if it is just me who finds this concept interesting. But I always thought it would be cool to see someone on a quest to create the magic that we read about every day.
So a story like this wouldn't necessarily have an antagonist. Well, it could have one, but it is not necessary. Danger could still be involved. Goblins, Dragons, Demons, but these are just obstacles in the main characters path. But I come back to my main question. Is an antagonist necessary? Can the story be interesting without one? Would it be enough to delve into the details of how magic is created and the path one has to walk to bring a spell or an item to life? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:18:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I recall reading, somewhere, that all stories are either person versus person, person versus environment, or person versus self. Person versus person (or other intelligent entity) is the most common, but it's not the only type.
Basic middle school english.
This is why I prefer the term antagonist to the term villain. A villain is, ultimately, just a bad person. There's nothing stopping the villain from being the protagonist and the hero being the antagonist, it's all about perception.
The antagonist can be the person's own self doubt or inner demons, or it can be the situation and the circumstance.
That being said, while those stories can be thought provoking, I personally prefer the person vs person standard. It's less existential and more, for lack of a better word, personal, when the clash is between two people's wills and desires, instead of a person at the mercy of the universe around them, or one who can't get over their own issues. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:04:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently.
Not for everyone. But most of the honorable people meet their end against people willing to do anything to win
Which is reminiscent of the Three Musketeers books, by Dumas. There were the main four Musketeers, plus the son -- and of those five, how many survived? One -- the one that sold out. There were some quite honorable minor characters in those books, too, and they didn't fare much better.
You realize the Count of Mountichristo is the balance to that coin. He says so in the dance of leaves. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 06:01:04
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There are several of us Realms writers who do the shades of gray thing too. Paul Kemp for one. And that one really tall guy with the funny last name.
My last two novels the villains have all been fairly minor--the challenges mostly come from the heroes themselves, and they spend as much time fighting each other than trying to beat the BBEG.
Cheers
Sigh.
christmas, you know what I'm going to be doing then, scanning your books in a page at a time, because there's no other way I'm going to be able to read them. It's going to be painful, because knowing my luck they'll only have hard copies at all my book stores, just like Elminster in hell. Had to take the binding of that one, and I'll probably have to do the same with yours, right then, nothing for it.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:49:27
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently.
Not for everyone. But most of the honorable people meet their end against people willing to do anything to win
Which is reminiscent of the Three Musketeers books, by Dumas. There were the main four Musketeers, plus the son -- and of those five, how many survived? One -- the one that sold out. There were some quite honorable minor characters in those books, too, and they didn't fare much better. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 03:06:40
In all fairness, neither Luke nor Leia knew they were related until after Yoda told him, and he mentioned that "his sister has it" (meaning the Force). She may have felt connected to him, but she only KNEW after that. So those kisses? The first WAS innocent ("For luck!") and the second was to make Han jealous. Guess what? It worked.... Interesting side-note that Luke eventually married the same woman who was sent by the Emporer to kill him. (Mara Jade, from the Heir to the Empire trilogy.) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 01:11:39
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently.
Not for everyone. But most of the honorable people meet their end against people willing to do anything to win.
Most is probably an understatement. 99.99% is more like it. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 00:26:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently.
Not for everyone. But most of the honorable people meet their end against people willing to do anything to win |
| Caolin |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 07:49:41
You know, I always thought that was the genius of the Star Wars saga. They built Vader up to be so evil and here is Luke thinking that he can be saved. But everyone else, including the audience, is like "no way man, he is pure evil and must be destroyed". That's why I will always argue that the final battle between Luke and Vader in Jedi is the best scene in all of the films. I even told George that personally while I had the opportunity to work for him. He was surprised because in his words he said "From what the fans say, nothing existed outside of Empire".
But back to the topic, that makes me think that I have never really read a redemption story in the Realms either...that I can think of. It seems like every evil character is always irrecoverably evil. Maybe I'm wrong though. Part of me wanted to see Manshoon come around in Bury Elminster Deep |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 04:15:46
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What would you call a story about a guy who devotes his life to killing his own father? Was Luke Skywalker a villain? He did kiss his own sister....
I'm assuming you've never read either Dark Empire or it's sequel, Dark Empire II?
Actually, wasn't Luke bent on redeeming his father rather than killing him? I think it was Yoda and Obi-Wan who were pushing him to kill Vader.
Luke felt that there was still good in his father... that he could try to "save him" and turn him back from the Dark Side. Yoda and Obi-Wan, on the other hand, were more convinced that there wasn't anything remotely good left in him -- that he was completely "twisted and evil." Ultimately, they saw that eliminating both Vader and the Emperor would be the only way to end the threat of the Sith.
I wouldn't say there were pushing Luke, however. More that they really weren't in a position to feel what Luke felt about his own father. The Skywalkers have a special relationship with the Force, as we know from both the Prequels and the Classic trilogies, so I've always assumed that this was why Luke could still reach out to his father when both Obi-Wan and Yoda had given up on him. And even then, I don't think they'd completely "given up." It's more likely that they were worried that Luke would ultimately end up being seduced by the Dark Side just as Anakin had been. No one... not Obi-Wan, Yoda, his sister, or the Emperor, could really see just how connected Luke and Anakin were in the Force. It was that special relationship and the threat of Luke dying at the hands of the Emperor that allowed them both -- Luke and Anakin -- to "save" each other. And in so doing, redeem Anakin, destroy Vader and the Emperor, and bring an end to the Sith. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 02:43:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What would you call a story about a guy who devotes his life to killing his own father? Was Luke Skywalker a villain? He did kiss his own sister....
I'm assuming you've never read either Dark Empire or it's sequel, Dark Empire II?
Actually, wasn't Luke bent on redeeming his father rather than killing him? I think it was Yoda and Obi-Wan who were pushing him to kill Vader. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 02:07:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What would you call a story about a guy who devotes his life to killing his own father? Was Luke Skywalker a villain? He did kiss his own sister....
I'm assuming you've never read either Dark Empire or it's sequel, Dark Empire II? |
| Caolin |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 00:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Caolin, person vs, self is something that does occur, there still though is a foe. Golum (spelling? ) of Lord of the Rings fought with inner soul loyalty to Frodo and desire for the one ring. These of course can be and have been done.
Oh I realize that. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is this. A story where there is no external or internal force working against the main characters and their goals. The main challenge comes from the difficulty of the task/quest they have set themselves upon. I used the example of the creation of an epic magic item or spell because this is a task that is inherently difficult and is supposed to take a lot of time, resources and struggle to accomplish. It requires no other force working against the character to make it interesting. I guess in a way the quest in itself becomes an indifferent, unrelenting antagonist.
(Note, I've not listened to the whole thread, so hopefully, this isn't a repeat.)
What you are describing is still person versus environment, for the following reasons. First, just because someone has decided to take it upon themselves to engage in the action, makes the action no less difficult. Climbing mount everest is still difficult, even if I decide to do it, instead of being telaported there by accident. Although this might make for an interesting plot. Second, magic in FR is an enherent part of reality, there are laws to it, rules and formulas, which while having been altered from time to time, still eist. This laws, regarding magic, constitute part of the natural environment of the FR. In this way, crafting a magical item, or creating a powerful spell is the same as climbing that mountain.
Let me back up for a moment and show you, not completely, how this might work. in the older Star Wars game by WOTC crafting a light saber was a tricky affair, there was the potential of it exploding in your face, doing a considerable amount of damage in the process. I don't still have my post from this, as it was a play by e-mail, by I wrote a relatively lengthy post about my characters consideration about the choice of handle, crystal, and then the part of putting it all together, including all the botches, a few of which I put in just for flavor, which occured during the crafting. It turned into a popular read, from what I'm told. Anyhow, the environment, is in fact anything that is external to the individual that's not another person, so it is in fact the broadesd catagory.
Yes, that sums it up exactly. Climbing Mount Everest is a great example. I've always had an interest in how things came to be. Say how a ranger became a ranger, or how did this cleric come to their faith. I think the back story of a spell or an artifact makes for some great literary value as well. The beginning of the Raymond E. Feist novel Apprentice was super interesting to me because I thought it was going to be all about Pug's progression as a wizard. Unfortunately it went off in a very different direction. It was still a great novel, but it left me wanting to read more about his learning the ways of magic. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 21:39:26
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Caolin, person vs, self is something that does occur, there still though is a foe. Golum (spelling? ) of Lord of the Rings fought with inner soul loyalty to Frodo and desire for the one ring. These of course can be and have been done.
Oh I realize that. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is this. A story where there is no external or internal force working against the main characters and their goals. The main challenge comes from the difficulty of the task/quest they have set themselves upon. I used the example of the creation of an epic magic item or spell because this is a task that is inherently difficult and is supposed to take a lot of time, resources and struggle to accomplish. It requires no other force working against the character to make it interesting. I guess in a way the quest in itself becomes an indifferent, unrelenting antagonist.
(Note, I've not listened to the whole thread, so hopefully, this isn't a repeat.)
What you are describing is still person versus environment, for the following reasons. First, just because someone has decided to take it upon themselves to engage in the action, makes the action no less difficult. Climbing mount everest is still difficult, even if I decide to do it, instead of being telaported there by accident. Although this might make for an interesting plot. Second, magic in FR is an enherent part of reality, there are laws to it, rules and formulas, which while having been altered from time to time, still eist. This laws, regarding magic, constitute part of the natural environment of the FR. In this way, crafting a magical item, or creating a powerful spell is the same as climbing that mountain.
Let me back up for a moment and show you, not completely, how this might work. in the older Star Wars game by WOTC crafting a light saber was a tricky affair, there was the potential of it exploding in your face, doing a considerable amount of damage in the process. I don't still have my post from this, as it was a play by e-mail, by I wrote a relatively lengthy post about my characters consideration about the choice of handle, crystal, and then the part of putting it all together, including all the botches, a few of which I put in just for flavor, which occured during the crafting. It turned into a popular read, from what I'm told. Anyhow, the environment, is in fact anything that is external to the individual that's not another person, so it is in fact the broadesd catagory. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 20:01:05
Erik, I thought of this while reading your latest Shadowbane novel. I loved it greatly, but sometimes I find myself becoming tired of trying to piece together all the threads when they all are just shades of grey. :)
It made me wonder about a novel where the reader follows the protagonist on a journey of discovery. Their purpose is well known, but the challenges are much less clear. But the point of my no villain concept was that in this hypothetical story, there was no one working at cross purposes to the main characters quest.
SO that line of thought got me to thinking if there were any fantasy stories (or Realms novels) that even came close to this idea. I had thought that maybe the notorious Once Around the Realms novel fit the bill. But even that story has a mysterious antagonist in it. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 19:59:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
In all fairness, Leia kissed Luke. 
And yet, she always knew she was related to Luke, she said in Return of the Jedi...
Interesting family Han married into!
Lol no doubt. It was a rather innocent kiss though, at least compared to what we see on TV today. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 18:31:23
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
In all fairness, Leia kissed Luke.
And yet, she always knew she was related to Luke, she said in Return of the Jedi...
Interesting family Han married into! |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 17:41:17
In all fairness, Leia kissed Luke. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 17:18:20
I know that. The term 'hero' is actually far more ambiguous then the term 'villain', regardless.
So long as someone, somewhere 'puts the character on a pedestal' - deserving or not - then technically they are a hero (to someone).
Then again, the same could be applied to villains... lots of folks consider Elminster a villain.
I was just pointing out that whether characters in a story are heroes or villains all depends on which side you are on. It has nothing to do with good vs evil (which is also rather arbitrary and a matter of perception), so no story is truly given to having a 'hero' or 'vllain' when you look at it that way - just more Shades of grey.
What would you call a story about a guy who devotes his life to killing his own father? Was Luke Skywalker a villain? He did kiss his own sister.... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What about a story with no hero?
Protagonist and hero are not synonomous. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 05:50:51
One comes, unheralded, to Zirta has no villain. I recall a few stories from the anthologies that didn't have villains (or rather, very ambiguous characters).
What about a story with no hero? Wasn't there one where Artemis Entreri killed a Shade? (and swallowed his cosmic McGuffin) When an assassin kills a bad guy, who's the villain?
I just watched Dexter a little while ago... I have a great character idea for the Realms now... |
| Yoss |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 05:44:56
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There are several of us Realms writers who do the shades of gray thing too. Paul Kemp for one. And that one really tall guy with the funny last name.
My last two novels the villains have all been fairly minor--the challenges mostly come from the heroes themselves, and they spend as much time fighting each other than trying to beat the BBEG.
Cheers
True, I've read and thoroughly enjoyed all Kemp's stuff, and once I whittle down my/my housemate's piles of realms books, you're next. I'll never make it through a series the size of song of... Without reading other things between. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 02:22:31
There are several of us Realms writers who do the shades of gray thing too. Paul Kemp for one. And that one really tall guy with the funny last name.
My last two novels the villains have all been fairly minor--the challenges mostly come from the heroes themselves, and they spend as much time fighting each other than trying to beat the BBEG.
Cheers |
| Yoss |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 11:37:19
Cool, thanks. As for a song of fire and ice, I've wanted to watch the show but 1) don't have hbo, or a tv at all for that matter, but more importantly 2) HATE watching things like that which are based off books that I haven't read. Always gotta read the books first, nothing is worse than picturing places and people as they are in the movie/show/miniseries. But all I really knew about it was that winter is coming. And that all the books are really long, but I've got nothing against long books.
I'll look into Abercrombie, too. |
| Captain Grafalcon |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 15:21:15
Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 12:30:20
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same. 
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really.
Definitely check out George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series, Game of Thrones is the first book. I would also highly recommend anything by british author Joe Abercrombie. His First Law Trilogy is amazing; The Blade Itself is the first book of that series. Steven Erikson is also very good, but for me he gets a little too wordy so his books don't feel as gritty as they really are. |
| Neo2151 |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 08:53:51
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really.
A Song of Ice and Fire, even now that it's all "popular," is still exactly what you're asking for.
The good guys can die. The bad guys can become the good guys. It's a living story, in that there is no "good vs bad," but instead is just the story of the characters as they face each other and the world.
(And, for whatever it's worth, I have to whole-heartedly disagree with Wooly. D&D novels? Yes. Fantasy as an entire genre? No way.) |
| Yoss |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:32:44
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 18:57:49
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Who was the villain in "Spine of the world"?
It was pretty much a Wulfgar vs his inner demons
Ahh yes! You are right. I actually liked that novel because it carried a lot of emotional weight. I might have to go back and reread it to look at it from another angle. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 03:30:55
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now. |
| Captain Grafalcon |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 02:54:40
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Who was the villain in "Spine of the world"?
It was pretty much a Wulfgar vs his inner demons
Good point, Wulfgar and Morik faced a problem or two, but the book was all about Wulfgar´s torment. |
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