| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 04:21:42
Is there a proper name for Trobriand's brand of spellcraft? Metal Magic? Metallurgy? Is it a sub-school of Transmutation? The little information we have about him is primarily found in The Ruins of Undermountain. And in p. 108, it states: “Trobriand has a great mastery over metal, rivaling that of the long-dead archwizards of Myth Drannor...” Since it looks like the practice of crafting specific spells with and in metals go as far back as the time of fallen Myth Drannor, and thus is not entirely 'new,' surely someone must have made a proper name for such 'art'?
Also, why is this brand of magic not so well-known or practiced by many wizards in Faerun? Trobriand himself sells some of his metal guardians to mages, creatures of the Realms Below, and all sorts of people from Skullport, Calimshan, and Lantan. Surely some of those mages must have endeavored to replicate the metal constructs and delve deeper into 'metal magic'? And given the abundance of metals in Toril, wizards should have already found other arcane uses of metals other than for storing spells?
My guess is that exploring greatly on metals smacks heavily of technology. We all know that the Realms is engineered to be as low-tech as possible, so...
What say you fellow scribes? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 14:52:10
Has Trobriand ever made adult dragon-size war constructs? If not to actually use them in war himself, or sell them to the highest bidder, at least to test his ingenuity? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:31:18
When you think about it, Trobriand could be grafting metal onto his apprentices to make them more stronger/durable etc, but could also have found a way to control them, placing spells on the metal to bind their minds to him. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 15:29:45
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Considering that metal lasts much more longer than flesh, I wonder why Murial has not approached Trobriand with some design to improve his scorpion body. If Murial wants to be the best, metal parts would seem better than simply grafting himself onto creatures.
Pride, most likely. They're both apprentices, meaning of equal status. Plus, they're hardly friends. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 15:17:25
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
True, but I also recall that he was able to fix a busted radio so well that it was like new, in one of the early episodes.
Perhaps. But that doesn't involve stitching organs of a living person and connecting it to a metallic device.
quote:
He's also the only alchemist able to do any of those things without a circle. I'd say he's a very versitile metal-mage.
He was only able to do that because he's seen the Gate of Truth, just like his teacher. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 03:30:32
Considering that metal lasts much more longer than flesh, I wonder why Murial has not approached Trobriand with some design to improve his scorpion body. If Murial wants to be the best, metal parts would seem better than simply grafting himself onto creatures. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 03:08:30
True, but I also recall that he was able to fix a busted radio so well that it was like new, in one of the early episodes. He's also transmuted complex weapons out of solid ground, and even changed mechanical objects into guns, or vice-versa. That takes a great deal of skill. And to transmute his metal arm into a weapon and back again, numerous times, shows that he has exactly the kind of subtlety and precision you mentioned. Then again, so did putting Alphonse into that armor, and attempting the transmutation to bring back their mother that lost them their parts in the first place. He's also the only alchemist able to do any of those things without a circle. I'd say he's a very versitile metal-mage |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 00:16:52
Edward is really good at blasting-type of alchemy/magic. On the other hand, creating a metallic arm that is connected to your nerves so it moves at your own will, requires subtlety and precision that only the most skilled of artificers possess, and Edward is hardly that. Besides, there are types of metal that he cannot transmute, like that one used by the soldiers at the Northern Wall of Briggs. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 22:39:29
True, but Ed can also create just about anything with his alchemy, and has been known to alchemically modify his metal arm into various weapons or tools on occasion. Plus, he got that title from the State Alchemists both as a nod to his metal limbs, and to his facility with metal-based transmutations, which is considerable (like Mustang is with fire). And maybe as a joke about his brother, as well... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 06:27:44
Nah. Trobriand creates all metal devices he puts to use. Edward's metallic arm was created by Winry. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 06:10:46
Sound's like the metal-mage is more a focus than a physical description. Though I suppose he could be a metal-mage in the same sense as this guy:
http://images.dvds-home.com/Upload/uploadfiles/fullmetal_alchemist_1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XLLIIcbBECM/UIDQFGgOdTI/AAAAAAAAE5I/FNvP8u_wxps/s1600/Fullmetal+Alchemist+-+03+-+Large+04.jpg
(They didn't call him Full Metal for nothin'...) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 04:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not familiar with him as I don't watch Doctor Who. Google gave me this image. It looks more like the prototype of Iron-Man.
They're the Cybermen of the post-2005 relaunch of Doctor Who.
I think the appearance of the Cybermen from the late 60's-era Who [specifically, 'Tomb of the Cybermen'] are more appropriately able to reflect the kind of "metal men" Trobriand might be responsible for crafting in the Realms. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 03:47:24
Not familiar with him as I don't watch Doctor Who. Google gave me this image. It looks more like the prototype of Iron-Man. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 21 Nov 2012 : 02:55:15
Has anyone ever thought of Trobriand as a Cyberman from Doctor Who, I mean there are those who speculate Halaster is the Doctor, and since the Metal Mage is specialized in "metalmancy" he sure could have transformed himself... |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 07:50:04
I dont recall the Metal Mage ever appearing in a novel except for sourcebooks, then again other scribes might know
Perhaps it is, necromancy could be combined with "metal-mancy" to do horrible things, like undead iron golems? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 05:49:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't it that in terms of canon, novels trump game rules?
I am not aware of any "order of precedence" listing for determining what is or isn't canon.
Even if this was written, the opinion of a character is not necessarily a fact.
Not necessarily, but it does bear some weight. It's not just one character, but a few. And not just ordinary characters, but MASTERS in their own specialized school.
Anyway, I have some questions for everyone:
Has Trobriand ever appeared in a novel? Even for just a few moments?
Does Trobriand only focus on Transmutation in bending/manipulating metals? Is Necromancy even 'compatible' with 'metal magic'? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 05:54:57
OK everybody...Lets all take a deep breath and settle down. Why dont we continue the discussion about Trobriand and his Art? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 03:54:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Is Szass Tam's write-up in DDI?
(This would be the most recent write-up... And 4e wizards don't have prohibited schools.)
Wooly, how do you reconcile Tams use of the Death Moon Orb? A spell caster who is prohibited from using Enchantment could not use this artifact... Yet we have canon which indicates he can.
Artifacts break the rules. Besides, the 3.x specialist couldn't use prohibited spells from scrolls or wands -- that leaves staves, rods, rings, and other magical devices. So even without it being an artifact, we still have an explanation. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 22:29:45
Is Szass Tam's write-up in DDI?
(This would be the most recent write-up... And 4e wizards don't have prohibited schools.)
Wooly, how do you reconcile Tams use of the Death Moon Orb? A spell caster who is prohibited from using Enchantment could not use this artifact... Yet we have canon which indicates he can. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 22:14:04
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Also, Wooly Rupert, do you believe, from a lore standpoint, that Szass Tam, if he found a Wand of Invisibility, would be able use it to cast Invisibility?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And either way, we have canon references to Szassy being a specialist, which in all rulesets includes prohibited schools -- this rule is not overwritten by any Realms-specific rules.
Further, in published Realmslore, we have listed prohibited schools listed for Szassy.
3.5 got those Feats in "Lost Empires of Faerun" - Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve (this covers those wands) and whatwasitsname.
Also, there was the opposite case, a generalist who more or less became a necromancer (Sammaster).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We have canon Realmslore, in the form of published stats, indicating Szass Tam is a specialist wizard, with prohibited schools.
...even though "published stats" as often as not are full of it (e.g. Pharaun Mizzrym).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Lastly, all we have indicating that this is not the case for Szassy is a single line, spoken by another character, in a novel. We do not have any published stats or anything to back that up.
...but yeah, it's exactly like that old "rogue elf" thing with Elaith Craulnober. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, regarding Trobriand. What folks 'see' (as in, what we, the readers, "know for a fact" can easily be retconned) is not necessarily the truth of things.
And it works both ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All that aside, I don't know of anything that says Trobriand is anything other than human. "Metal Mage" is just a nickname for his preferred way of playing with magic.
He had to use something to live that long. Maybe potions of logevity - after all, he got to be a competent alchemist too - but maybe not... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 17:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
@Wooly: So, in your Realms, Szass Tam cannot activate a "Wand of Invisibility"?
I make no assertations for or against that.
I wouldn't use Szassy in such a position where it would be relevant, anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
And either way, we have canon references to Szassy being a specialist, which in all rulesets includes prohibited schools -- this rule is not overwritten by any Realms-specific rules.
Nope. No prohibited schools in 1e.
Okay, so in one edition of the game -- an edition replaced 20 years ago, and one in which Szass Tam was not statted up -- they didn't have that rule. It doesn't matter! It's been in subsequent editions of the game, where he was statted up.
The most recently-given stats for this character list him with prohibited schools. Until you can produce more recent official stats, those stats are valid. The lore has not been trumped by newer lore. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 16:58:08
Major NPCs are munchkins, and can violate the rules simply because they can. Heroes (and anti-heroes) are supposed to be 'beyond normal', like Beowulf, or Gilgamesh.
Writers and DMs can decide whatever they want... I chuck-out at least half of any rules set. I would also never bother even looking at write-ups for Elminster or Szass Tam - they do whatever I say they do.
And I could have sworn I saw a feat somewhere that allowed you to take a prohibited school... not sure though. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 16:25:32
@Hoondatha: Page 7
@Wooly: So, in your Realms, Szass Tam cannot activate a "Wand of Invisibility"?
quote:
And either way, we have canon references to Szassy being a specialist, which in all rulesets includes prohibited schools -- this rule is not overwritten by any Realms-specific rules.
Nope. No prohibited schools in 1e.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 14:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Novels don't always follow game rules... But they follow them closely enough. And not being able to specialize in everything is pretty basic.
And as pointed out, we have canon stats for Szassy that show he had prohibited schools. Kinda hard to be a master of spells you can't cast.
One opinion, stated in a novel, is not enough to overrule prior lore and game rules.
Novels do not always follow game rules. Game rules do not always completely model a campaign setting.
In the novel "Elminster, Making of a Mage" we are told that Elminster progresses through some other classes prior to settling in on Wizard; Elminster's 3e stats, provided in "Epic Level Handbook", indicate he is capable of casting 9th level spells.
However, by the rules, he cannot, with the progression of classes Elminster chose.
Prior lore indicates that Elminster *can* cast spells of the highest level.
Game rules (as Elminster is written up in "ELH") demand that he cannot.
Which trumps which Wooly Rupert?
(Note that one must be wrong, or the other.)
Also, Wooly Rupert, do you believe, from a lore standpoint, that Szass Tam, if he found a Wand of Invisibility, would be able use it to cast Invisibility?
I am not aware of any rule that says 9th-level spells are prohibited to wizards who have other classes.
The rule to which you refer is in the same book as the erroneous statistics; "ELH".
I no longer have this book; my copy was destroyed. I cannot comment on the rule without reading it for myself. I'm sure there's more to it, because the rule, as you explained it, is utterly nonsensical.
More relevantly, setting rules trump core rules. And we have countless references to Elminster casting 9th level spells.
And either way, we have canon references to Szassy being a specialist, which in all rulesets includes prohibited schools -- this rule is not overwritten by any Realms-specific rules.
Further, in published Realmslore, we have listed prohibited schools listed for Szassy.
Lastly, all we have indicating that this is not the case for Szassy is a single line, spoken by another character, in a novel. We do not have any published stats or anything to back that up.
And opinions of characters are not facts. Otherwise, there could be a book about the Cormyrean noble Bahb Silversilver, and him telling his current love interest that she was the most beautiful girl in the Realms would make it fact for the setting.
Here are the facts:
We have canon Realmslore, in the form of published stats, indicating Szass Tam is a specialist wizard, with prohibited schools.
We have the stated opinion of a character in a novel, who issues a vague statement of Szass's capabilities. This is a character, not an omniscient third party.
Until there are new stats published for Szassy, the prior stats remain valid. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 14:39:16
Can you give a page number? |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 12:49:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Novels don't always follow game rules... But they follow them closely enough. And not being able to specialize in everything is pretty basic.
And as pointed out, we have canon stats for Szassy that show he had prohibited schools. Kinda hard to be a master of spells you can't cast.
One opinion, stated in a novel, is not enough to overrule prior lore and game rules.
Novels do not always follow game rules. Game rules do not always completely model a campaign setting.
In the novel "Elminster, Making of a Mage" we are told that Elminster progresses through some other classes prior to settling in on Wizard; Elminster's 3e stats, provided in "Epic Level Handbook", indicate he is capable of casting 9th level spells.
However, by the rules, he cannot, with the progression of classes Elminster chose.
Prior lore indicates that Elminster *can* cast spells of the highest level.
Game rules (as Elminster is written up in "ELH") demand that he cannot.
Which trumps which Wooly Rupert?
(Note that one must be wrong, or the other.)
Also, Wooly Rupert, do you believe, from a lore standpoint, that Szass Tam, if he found a Wand of Invisibility, would be able use it to cast Invisibility?
I am not aware of any rule that says 9th-level spells are prohibited to wizards who have other classes.
The rule to which you refer is in the same book as the erroneous statistics; "ELH". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 10:53:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't it that in terms of canon, novels trump game rules?
I am not aware of any "order of precedence" listing for determining what is or isn't canon.
Even if this was written, the opinion of a character is not necessarily a fact. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 10:51:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Novels don't always follow game rules... But they follow them closely enough. And not being able to specialize in everything is pretty basic.
And as pointed out, we have canon stats for Szassy that show he had prohibited schools. Kinda hard to be a master of spells you can't cast.
One opinion, stated in a novel, is not enough to overrule prior lore and game rules.
Novels do not always follow game rules. Game rules do not always completely model a campaign setting.
In the novel "Elminster, Making of a Mage" we are told that Elminster progresses through some other classes prior to settling in on Wizard; Elminster's 3e stats, provided in "Epic Level Handbook", indicate he is capable of casting 9th level spells.
However, by the rules, he cannot, with the progression of classes Elminster chose.
Prior lore indicates that Elminster *can* cast spells of the highest level.
Game rules (as Elminster is written up in "ELH") demand that he cannot.
Which trumps which Wooly Rupert?
(Note that one must be wrong, or the other.)
Also, Wooly Rupert, do you believe, from a lore standpoint, that Szass Tam, if he found a Wand of Invisibility, would be able use it to cast Invisibility?
I am not aware of any rule that says 9th-level spells are prohibited to wizards who have other classes. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 05:36:07
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Isn't it that in terms of canon, novels trump game rules?
Indeed.
Also, as I pointed out above, the stats in "ELH" don't work, so they are invalid.
It is much better to do ones own npc write-ups from general, simplified, descriptions; if I did not do so, PCs of *FAR* lower level than the many 'pillars of villainy' in the Realms would be mince-meat. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 05:29:04
Also, it could be noted that in "Dreams of the Red Wizards" (which I believe to be Szass Tam's first 'source book' appearance), he is listed as a 27th level Magic User, School of Necromancy, Red Wizard of Thay.
He, of course, has no prohibited schools.
In addition, by the (1e) rules, Szass Tam cannot be a Necromancer.
Necromancers are 12th level magic-users, and only 12th level magic users.
=====================================================================
Dennis, it is safe to assume that Szass Tam is a master of every school of magic. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 05:25:58
Isn't it that in terms of canon, novels trump game rules? |
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